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Propane question



 
 
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  #1  
Old February 18th 12, 11:01 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 1,955
Default Propane question

I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


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  #2  
Old February 18th 12, 11:20 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 4,879
Default Propane question



Steve B wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve

Hi,
During my camping days 4 seasons, all I know is there is winter blend
propane just like gasoline for cars. In extreme cold summer blend can
even freeze.
  #3  
Old February 18th 12, 11:22 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 2,673
Default Propane question

On Feb 18, 6:01*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. *The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


it should still heat well, i have grilled at near zero, after bringing
the 20 pound tank indoors in hot water to warm it up a bit.

your burner may be clogged, or a spider may have made a nest in a
orfice or line. might be a bad regulator

inspect the burner its probably clogged or may be rusted or burned
out.

i love my very old lava rock grill. i put parts of it in my self
cleaning oven to degreae it..... on the shortest cycle possible.. the
lid slumped a bit, it must of started to melt
  #4  
Old February 19th 12, 12:04 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 1,456
Default Propane question

On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem.
  #5  
Old February 19th 12, 12:16 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,230
Default Propane question

On Feb 18, 3:01*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. *The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


here is a useful primer on propane

http://rjmurray.com/serviceBulletins...nsHandbook.pdf

probably more info than you wanted but here's an important
excerpt........

Vaporization Rate
The rate of vaporization of a container is dependent upon
the temperature of the liquid and the amount of “wetted
surface” area of the container.

The temperature of the liquid is proportional to the outside
air temperature and the wetted surface area is the tank
surface area in contact with the liquid. Therefore, when
the outside air temperature is lower or the container has
less liquid in it, the vaporization rate of the container is a
lower value.


The vaporization rate is important because it determines the maximum
energy delivery rate (btu per hour) that you can get from the tank in
a particular cooking situation.

I have similar BBQ but a different mfr & only three burners (~40,000
btu / hr)

If yours is a four burner then you're in the 50K+ range.

I'm guessing the cold weather with a bit of wind is stealing heat from
the bbq.
And you;re suffering from reduced a reduced vaporization rate as well.

here's a better link... it shows the btu's per hr from various tank
sizes at various outside Temps with the tank at 25% full (the
conservative way to estimate tank size required to supply a load).

http://www.generatorjoe.net/html/PropaneNGUse.html

scroll down and read the section

"What does all this mean?"

There are a number of variables at work that can "go against you" when
you're trying to cook in cold temps with LP gas.

One way around the problem is to always use a tank that is closer to
full in cold weather.
Or place the in a large galvanized wash tub with ~4 gallons of 85F
water while you're cooking.
That would be 2 gallons of cold water at 50F and 2 gallons of hot
water at 120F.
YMMV

That will give you plenty of heat input into the tank to vaporize the
propane and make the bbq happy.

cheers
Bob
  #6  
Old February 19th 12, 01:04 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 1,230
Default Propane question

On Feb 18, 4:04*pm, Frank wrote:
On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote: I have two propane appliances. * One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. *The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. *Both of the tanks are outside.


Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and when is it just too cold to grill outside? *Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. *There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.


After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?


Steve


I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem.


There's more to the situation than the boiling point of propane.

It comes down to how many btu's/hr you need to get into the liquid
propane
in order to vaporize enough propane at reasonable tank pressure to
satisfy the appliance demand.

That's why when frost starts to form on an "in use" propane tank, the
heat transfer is "barely working" and the appliance is likely being
starved.

cheers
Bob
  #7  
Old February 19th 12, 02:00 AM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 5
Default Propane question

I have the $99 special I bought at Home Depot about 10 years ago.
I'd buy a nicer one but some heathen would prolly steal it.
Anyway, works fine down into the low low 30's...no problem.

Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Steve B" wrote in message ...
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve



  #8  
Old February 19th 12, 02:47 AM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,830
Default Propane question

"Steve B" wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

At this time of year, when I go to grill, there is barely enough propane
coming out to get the grill to 250 degrees, even with four burners on high.
The grill DOES need cleaning (boy, howdy, it really does), which may be part
or all of the problem.

But, the two feed off tanks that are outside at the same temp. The cooktop
line, though, comes through the garage and a heated portion of the house, so
gets some heating up along the way, but the regulator and tank are still
outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


I never had a problem in the cold using my grill. I have had issues with
regulators. I have never tried to use the grill around zero degrees. I have
gone through 3 regulators on the same grill.

Greg
  #9  
Old February 19th 12, 01:55 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 6,757
Default Propane question


Frank wrote:

On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem.


Don't forget that propane functions as a refrigerant and drawing large
amounts of gas from a small tank with cool the contents considerable.
Note how frost forms on the outside of the tank matching the liquid
level inside. The much larger tank feeding the home will chill far less
for a given flow rate, and a kitchen range also requires less flow than
an outdoor grill. Hook the outdoor grill to the big supply tank (or
manifold a couple smaller tanks for the grill) and your problems will
disappear.
  #10  
Old February 19th 12, 02:43 PM posted to alt.home.repair
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Posts: 1,456
Default Propane question

On 2/19/2012 8:55 AM, Pete C. wrote:

Frank wrote:

On 2/18/2012 6:01 PM, Steve B wrote:
I have two propane appliances. One is a Bosch range top, fed from an
outside 114 gal propane tank. The other is a Vermont Castings grill, fed
from a 20# bottle. Both of the tanks are outside.

Just how does propane function with relation to outside temperatures, and
when is it just too cold to grill outside? Temps here during the
questionable episodes were 40-45 deg. F at max coldness, so not down there
around freezing. There was some wind, and in the past that does blow the
flame around a lot.

After a thorough disassembly and cleaning, what can I expect from propane
use outside in 40ish temperatures?

Steve


I see propane boils at -44 deg. F. so temperature is not your problem.


Don't forget that propane functions as a refrigerant and drawing large
amounts of gas from a small tank with cool the contents considerable.
Note how frost forms on the outside of the tank matching the liquid
level inside. The much larger tank feeding the home will chill far less
for a given flow rate, and a kitchen range also requires less flow than
an outdoor grill. Hook the outdoor grill to the big supply tank (or
manifold a couple smaller tanks for the grill) and your problems will
disappear.


Right but I did not think restriction would be that great. STP gas
pressure should only be down by maybe 10%.
No personal experience as I don't use my grill in cold weather
 




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