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#1
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed
a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. |
#2
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 6:51*am, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. Depending on the rust isolation...I would opt for a self-treading screw and silicone automotive gasket sealer. |
#3
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
plan on replacing the pipe, if the boilwer is older it migh save a lot
of money by upgrading to a new more efficent one |
#4
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in
grey color. http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2" steel piping. |
#5
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose clip/jubilee clip. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced. The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the water treatment in the boiler. |
#6
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 10:38*am, harry wrote:
On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote: Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose clip/jubilee clip.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced. The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the water treatment in the boiler. I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler. I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion. |
#7
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big
wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the appeal of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could not. One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads. Please let us know if this does any good. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Mikepier" wrote in message ... The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in grey color. http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2" steel piping. |
#8
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote: I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler. I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion. I used a corrosion inhibitor in my hot water system, but can't speak for residential steam boilers. Since it's pretty new, you should check the manual. You should replace that pipe ASAP. If it breaks with somebody nearby it could kill them. Guy I worked with got killed opening an overhead steam trap on a depressurized line. Just the water running out scalded him to death. U.S. Steel, South Works. --Vic |
#9
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 6:51*am, Mikepier wrote:
Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. Can't verify the fact, but one old time journeymen welder related how he use to repair small steam leaks (under pressure) by pounding a sharp tack into the hole and then carefully welding it into place. MIG, TIG, whatever, it may have been, but having seen some amazing work by these pros I tend to believe this was true. A sharp tack in the hole followed by epoxy seems a lot safer approach, naturally. Joe |
#10
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 12:10*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the appeal of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could not. One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads. Please let us know if this does any good. Usually I just cut the pipe with a sawzall, leaving the stub of pipe sticking out of the fitting. Then I cut 2 small notches inside the stub, cutting it in 2, and it comes out clean. |
#11
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
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#12
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 12:41*pm, Mikepier wrote:
Usually I just cut the pipe with a sawzall, leaving the stub of pipe sticking out of the fitting. Then I cut 2 small notches inside the stub, cutting it in 2, and it comes out clean. That's probably the safest way to do it. If you go romping on the pipe trying to remove it, you're likely to end up damaging the plumbing further down the line. Spent a lot of time as a kid helping the old man chase down rotten old iron pipes in the barn. Seemed like you always ended up replacing three pipes for every one that leaked because you wrecked them getting to the leaky pipe. |
#13
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
In article ,
Vic Smith wrote: On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier wrote: I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler. I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion. I used a corrosion inhibitor in my hot water system, but can't speak for residential steam boilers. Since it's pretty new, you should check the manual. You should replace that pipe ASAP. If it breaks with somebody nearby it could kill them. Guy I worked with got killed opening an overhead steam trap on a depressurized line. Just the water running out scalded him to death. U.S. Steel, South Works. --Vic Residential steam heat boilers could burn someone but don't operate at the pressures and temperatures that industrial systems do. Fatal injury from a residential steam leak is extremely unlikely. -- Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler. (Albert Einstein) Larry Wasserman - Baltimore Maryland - lwasserm(a)sdf. lonestar. org |
#14
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
Better to use pipe on the wrenche handles which give you the added leverage.
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... The only time I worked with two inch pipe, it took some monster big wrenches. And a fireman who lifted weights. I can easily imagine the appeal of an epoxy patch. One time, myself and my boss both wrenched on one fitting, and the two of us working together didn't have enough power to loosen the thread. The job boss, a fireman, did what us two cripples could not. One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads. Please let us know if this does any good. Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "Mikepier" wrote in message ... The epoxy is made by Permatex. This is the product I used. Dries in grey color. http://www.permatex.com/products/Aut...etal_Epoxy.htm Also the boiler is only 2 years old, but the piping I'm sure is a lot older. Fortunately the problem pipe can be removed since there is a union fitting not to far from it, so its not like I have to disassemble a lot, but it is very heavy pipe, at least 2" and 2-1/2" steel piping. |
#15
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On 12/30/2011 10:00 AM, willshak wrote:
He didn't say what type of epoxy he used, but he was wrong about the JB epoxy. JB Kwik is rated to 300ºF and bonds in 4 minutes. Cures in 4 hours. The regular JB Weld is rated to 500ºF, sets in about 5 hours, and cures in about 15 hours. I have used the JB Weld and it remains runny for a long time. I didn't time it, but when checking it after after an hour or so, I could still move the epoxy. It also still stuck to my finger. I use regular JB Weld from Lowes to make pallets of scrap circuit board material to go through our convection soldering oven. We do both leaded solder paste and lead-free solder paste. The pallets go through the oven hundreds of times without epoxy problems. The circuit board material begins to delaminate, but the JB Weld is still good. It does get rather brittle, however. I have been able to speed up the setting and curing of JB Weld using a heat gun to raise the temperature of the material. Usually is set by the second hour of occasionally heating all the joints. It still lasts as long as joints left alone for 24 hours. Paul |
#16
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
The cheater pipe has the advantage of speed. But, it's likely to over do the
force on the wrenches, and break a wrench. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "don &/or Lucille" wrote in message ... Better to use pipe on the wrenche handles which give you the added leverage. "Stormin Mormon" wrote in message ... One trick I've heard, but not tried. Heat the fitting with a torch. As the fitting is cooling, use a wax candle to drip paraffin on the threads. The fitting cools, and sucks in the paraffin, which lubricates the threads. Please let us know if this does any good. |
#17
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 09:09:18 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote: I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler. I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion. Adding water does add oxygen. Chemical treatment though, on some boiler is a must. If it is a cast iron boiler and you have good water, treatment is probably not needed. The Weil McLain section boilers are rather hardy that way. If it is a water tube or fire tube boiler, treatment may be needed. Industrial boilers are treated and chemical balance is checked every day to be sure it is correct. If you have a preheat tank, be sure the temperature is up as high as possible as it helps get rid of oxygen. You may want to add an oxygen scavenger too. Boilers should be blown down on occasion to remove accumulated solids and to check the operation of automatic shut-off devices. You may want to check with an experience steam boiler operator or treatment specialist to see what you really need. You can even take courses for the operation of steam boilers, but they are geared towards the industrial type of boiler, much more complex that an apartment building, but still the same basics apply. |
#18
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 04:51:22 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote: How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. They can be welded if it is newish pipe, but not old corroded stuff. . Using epoxy is, at best, a temporary fix. How old is the setup? If it is a year or two, probably not a big deal, but if it is a 15 year old pipe, there is probably little left to fix. Steam condensate is high in carbonic acid and will cause pipe to corrode quicker than plain water. You may want to have a test done to see if chemical treatment is needed. Be prepared to replace the pipe and possible another section or two. |
#19
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 30, 5:09*pm, Mikepier wrote:
On Dec 30, 10:38*am, harry wrote: On Dec 30, 12:51*pm, Mikepier wrote: Last night while checking on one of the buildings I manage, I noticed a pinhole leak coming from a 2" steel pipe that enters the side of the boiler. The leak is not at the boiler, but at the top of the pipe ( it's a horizontal pipe). Fortunately it is above the water line. I assume its probably because of corrosion, but in any event I shut down the boiler and went to a nearby hardware store and purchased 2 part epoxy, and applied it to the pinhole. Waited about an hour, fired up the boiler and let it get to full steam at about 3PSI. I saw no leaks after sitting there about an hour monitoring the situation. I'm wondering how long it will hold. But one thing I noticed is the epoxy dried as hard as steel. How are these pinhole leaks usually repaired? I heard of JBweld, but you need to wait a while until it sets, plus its rated to only 200-250 degrees. The stuff I used is rated to 300 degrees. You can make a good medium term repair using a bit of joint/flat sheet gasket material placed over the pinhole held on witha radiator hose clip/jubilee clip.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ho....screw.agr.jpg However it wants to be fixed properly, ie pipework replaced. The fact that this has happened indicates you want to look at the water treatment in the boiler. I always thought it was not a good idea to add anything to the boiler. I even heard flushing out the boiler and adding new water is bad cause it adds more oxygen, which means more corrosion.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Added chemicals "get" the oxygen and control the ph of the water. If there is anything to "flush out" you have a problem. It can only be corrosion products. Any intermitantly used steam plant has major problems. When shut down, air gets into the system causing corrosion. Conditions are ideal for corrosion. Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned for this purpose in most places. It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the disadvantages. Only in America. |
#20
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote: Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned for this purpose in most places. It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the disadvantages. Only in America. You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to insult a country. Are you really that much of a scumbag? You give the rest of the Brits a bad name. You have a strange way of achieving your orgasm. You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is inappropriate to use steam is wrong. One advantage of steam is the ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights than water. With water, you need much more power and larger pumps. |
#21
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On 12/31/2011 8:42 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), wrote: Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned for this purpose in most places. It has none of the avantages a large system has and all of the disadvantages. Only in America. You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to insult a country. Are you really that much of a scumbag? You give the rest of the Brits a bad name. You have a strange way of achieving your orgasm. I wonder the same thing. Every human endeavor (including a country) has its pluses and minuses. Sensible people look at the big picture. I don't get the point of Harries constant US bashing. Maybe he needs to have a talk with someone about why he can only see the bad side of things? You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is inappropriate to use steam is wrong. One advantage of steam is the ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights than water. With water, you need much more power and larger pumps. |
#22
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
bob haller wrote in news:2a1f1af7-c0cd-44cb-8ffc-
: plan on replacing the pipe, if the boilwer Practicing your Elmer Fudd skills? :-) is older it migh save a lot of money by upgrading to a new more efficent one |
#23
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ilers/egh.aspx |
#24
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:58:19 -0800 (PST), Mikepier
wrote: For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ilers/egh.aspx They have been around for many years. A pretty good cast iron boiler and easy to maintain. Just be sure to check the low water cut off periodically. |
#25
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 31 2011, 1:42*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), harry wrote: Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned for this purpose in most places. It has none of the avantages a large system has and *all of the disadvantages. Only in America. You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to insult a country. *Are you really that much of a scumbag? *You give the rest of the Brits a bad name. *You have a strange way of achieving your orgasm. You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is inappropriate to use steam is wrong. *One advantage of steam is the ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights than water. *With water, you need much more power and larger pumps. If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. However all steam boilers are inherently inefficient and there are massive distribution losses. There may well be pumping of feedwater and condensate, (Depending on how antiquated the system is.) So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. It's therefore amazing that here is a tiny steam boiler only two years old. A modern system would pay back in only a few years in the fuel savings. Only the most conservative idiot would contemplate such a thing. Only in fact in America. |
#26
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 31 2011, 1:57*pm, George wrote:
On 12/31/2011 8:42 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On Fri, 30 Dec 2011 23:14:21 -0800 (PST), wrote: Steam heating is unsuited to smallish systems. It has been abandoned for this purpose in most places. It has none of the avantages a large system has and *all of the disadvantages. Only in America. You actually made sense, but then you had to add the last line to insult a country. *Are you really that much of a scumbag? *You give the rest of the Brits a bad name. *You have a strange way of achieving your orgasm. I wonder the same thing. Every human endeavor (including a country) *has its pluses and minuses. Sensible people look at the big picture. I don't get the point of Harries constant US bashing. Maybe he needs to have a talk with someone about why he can only see the bad side of things? You don't know the size of the system so to make a comment it is inappropriate to use steam is wrong. *One advantage of steam is the ability to transport energy over long distances and to greater heights than water. *With water, you need much more power and larger pumps.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I just love winding you Yanks up. Many live in a cocoon and come out with the most ridiculous stuff. There are some well informed people here. (None of them are republicans) I put it down to government brainwashing. I consider it my duty to reverse this as you are a dangerous menace to the world. |
#27
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Dec 31 2011, 7:58*pm, Mikepier wrote:
For what its worth, the boiler is a WeilMcClain EGH-95 steam boiler: http://www.weil-mclain.com/en/our-pr...ercial-boilers... Just read through that. Very interesting. I never realised that such crap was still made. It's the sort of thing one reads about in text books and marvels at how primitive, limited and inefficient things were in Victorian times. It must also be expensive to buy and has a few inherent hazards. I can't think of a single advantage it has to make any one want one. Unless it be to replace a similar one. You need to do a costing exercise to see what advantage there would be in replacing the system with a modern one. There may well be a general corrosion problem throughout the system that will force your hand in any event.. But if you have gas, think decentralisation. There will be no problem in halving your fuel bill. Maybe more than that. This was my field before I retired. I would have been delighted to find such a sytem, it would be easy to make massive savings and look wonderful! Heh Heh. Thank you for telling me about it. |
#28
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry
wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. I glad to hear that all of the UK has done this to the old buildings though. More oil for the rest of us. |
#29
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On 1/1/2012 5:18 AM, harry wrote:
I just love winding you Yanks up. Many live in a cocoon and come out with the most ridiculous stuff. There are some well informed people here. (None of them are republicans) I put it down to government brainwashing. I consider it my duty to reverse this as you are a dangerous menace to the world. Couldn't avoid getting another round of bashing in could you? As I said normal well adjusted people can see the big picture... |
#30
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic |
#31
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:12:25 -0600, Vic Smith
wrote: You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. Depends on how you use the word. This is a mini-decentralization. What Harry is talking about is having one central boiler to do the entire building, rather than a bunch of smaller, efficient, water heating units, one per apartment. We really are talking about the same thing and one of my projects this year is to look into doing exactly that in our building at work. There is a section of our building that is about 100 years old. It has sprinklers and must be kept above freezing. Two spaces are rented out. The rest of that building probably never will be rented, but still must be heated. So far, I've broken off the two tenant spaces and converted them to gas fired water. A portion of the "new" building where our offices are was also heated by the steam boiler. They were taken off and put on to another existing water boiler. The unused portions of the building just have to be kept from freezing. Part is used for storage, the rest is empty and not practical to rent. The steam boiler runs either two hours a day or four hours, depending on outside temperature. It has never needed more than two 2 hour periods even on the coldest days. If we wanted to keep the building at say, 68 degrees for occupied space, it would be a no-brainer. With minimal running, the payback for the project will be much longer. It is not just buying the boilers, it is also the piping, partitioning, venting, etc. that must be done. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. Exactly. Steam was installed in our building because, at the time it was the most practical. From the boiler in the basement, steam has to move up to three floors plus an attic. Before changes, it had to move horizontally about 200 feet and the up 10 and down 10 for that section of the building. That was already changed over. We bought this building in 2001 and moved production to it in 2007. The building we have is 180,000 square feet and has every type of heating known to man as it was built from 1890 to 1975 and we started refurbing in 2007. Gas fired steam, two gas fired water heaters. 2 oil fired hot air units, 3 gas fired rooftop heaters (installed 2008). electric baseboard, 5 gas fired unit heaters. The rooftop units replaced some infrared heaters that we could not have with our process. In addition, we have two 125 hp gas fired process boilers that operate at 110 psi. There is enough heat from the machines that the production area needs no added heat when operating. |
#32
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Jan 1, 10:12*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - In the case under discussion a stupid decision was taken two years ago when the boiler was changed. The whole system should have been checked out. That would have been the opportunity to make a cost saving change,ie get rid of the steam. Now they have a new boiler and a possibly shagged out pipe system.. Steam radiators are smaller because the steam carries latent heat/heat of vapourisation. The condensate leaving the radiators is at exactly the same temperature as the steam entering. There are several ways of piping out a gravity steam system. The "one pipe" option is probably the worst. Hey they are not still doing THAT in America!!!? |
#33
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Jan 1, 10:12*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), harry wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes. One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the coal is cheap enough. The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often defeated cost wise due to seasonality. When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating. Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource. |
#34
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote:
On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic wrote: On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed wrote: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes. One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the coal is cheap enough. The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often defeated cost wise due to seasonality. When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating. Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource. The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and electrical power generation. ^_^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland TDD |
#35
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On Jan 2, 2:16*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote: On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote: On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic *wrote: On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed *wrote: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, *locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. *Have you seen the building? *No? *They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. *Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes. One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the coal is cheap enough. The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often defeated cost wise due to seasonality. When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating. Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource. The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and electrical power generation. ^_^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland TDD- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Their steam is free. |
#36
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Pinhole in 2" Steam pipe
On 1/2/2012 10:26 AM, harry wrote:
On Jan 2, 2:16 pm, The Daring wrote: On 1/2/2012 3:06 AM, harry wrote: On Jan 1, 10:12 pm, Vic wrote: On Sun, 01 Jan 2012 09:01:12 -0500, Ed wrote: On Sun, 1 Jan 2012 02:13:47 -0800 (PST), wrote: If it has 2" pipework and it is unmanned , it is small. Steam heating was largely devised so that large buildings/collections of buildings could be heated from a central source using coal/oil and a minimum of labour and dirt and inconvenience in the heated buildings. So if you are heating with gas (or even oil these days) there are vast savings to be made by decentralising, locating small (non-steam) boilers close to the buildings to be heated. On paper, there seems to be potential savings. Have you seen the building? No? They you have no idea what is needed to refurbish the building to a new system. The need to run gas lines to each apartment may be impossible, or nearly so and meet codes. Individual boilers are small and efficient, but they still need some space and vents and probably condensate pumps for the most efficient. You guys are talking apples and oranges. The boiler Mike linked to is designed to heat one building. It *is* "decentralized." Industrial and municipal steam systems fit the "centralized" category. There you have long pipe runs to outlying buildings. NYC had an underground line blow not too long ago. I might question using steam depending on the size of the building. Could be a case of "that's how we always did it." Then again the cost of converting to hot water might not work. If it's one pipe steam, probably not. Hot water needs inlet and outlet on the radiators. Steam radiators are usually smaller because steam is hotter. Blah blah. You need an expert to scope that out, and that's not me. --Vic- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - There are a couple of good reasons for district heating schemes. One is when using coal as a fuel when steam might make sense if the coal is cheap enough. The other is if there is a source of low grade heat that would otherwise go to waste, eg from an (electricity) power station. Often defeated cost wise due to seasonality. When steam is needed for purposes other than space heating. Apart from the above, steam is a wasteof time and resource. The people of Iceland are experts at using steam for hot water, heat and electrical power generation. ^_^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geothe...wer_in_Iceland TDD- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Their steam is free. It is quite amazing isn't it? ^_^ TDD |
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