[DerbyDad03]

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Nov 28, 12:29*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic...

Per the law of physics, they are obviously idiots. The
electric energy you are paying for, as registered by the
meter, is almost all converted to heat by an electric heater.
The tiny, negligible losses would be as heat in the wiring going from
the meter to the heater. And even that is converted to heat.

You don't need to know what you're talking about to put
up stuff on the web.

There are legitimate differences in how that heat then
reaches the person in the room, how it's dispersed,
etc. For example, a radiant electric heater that directs that
heat directly at where someone is sitting is going to be more
economical to run than an electric heater
that tries to heat the entire room. But if they both run at
1000 watts they both have the same 100% efficeincy in
converting the electric that goes into them into heat.




P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner.
Why heat the shop when you're only there a small
percentage of the time? Or buy one of the radiant heaters
with a dish that you can pick up at Costco or Walmart for $40.
The benefit to those, besides being energy efficient, is that
you get heat instantly. Downside is that they are very
directional. So, if you stay at one spot it could be good.
If you move around, soon as you're not in front of it, no heat.

[Bob F]

DerbyDad03 wrote:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

That article is pure nonsense.

[mike]

DerbyDad03 wrote:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

You are flailing at the wrong issue.

WHAT is your OBJECTIVE?

I assume, that like most of us, you want to save money.

I can think of two reasons to heat.

1) prevent damage from cold in your absence.
For most of us, that means to prevent freezing of stuff that
gets damaged by freezing. Water and pipes is an example, but
by no means, the only one. Dew point is another. You might want
to avoid condensation. You may keep a pet gerbil in there...There may
be other issues. You want to keep
the place barely warm and dry enough to achieve those objectives.

2)Stuff that wants to be warm in your presence.
YOURSELF
Maybe your CNC doesn't like to work well when the grease is cold.
You want to add enough (but no more) heat at the proper time to achieve
those
objectives. Maybe you want preheat before you get there...maybe you turn
up the heat when you arrive.

The most efficient method of warming for yourself is to bundle up.
If that's not acceptable, you need to turn up the heat to match
the bundling you can tolerate. An electric snuggie will heat YOU
efficiently.

Same for equipment that needs a certain temperature range to work
properly.

Bottom line is that you heat as little stuff as possible to the
smallest degree possible for the shortest time possible.
You might find that a dehumidifier is cheaper than heat in a particular
circumstance. YMMV.
That's how you reach the lowest cost.

As for efficiency, either electric heater will produce the same
number of BTU of heat for the same electrical input. PERIOD!.
Doesn't matter what the informercial tells you, it's physics...or
thermodynamics.

The difference is WHERE those BTU's go. An electric snuggie will
heat YOU without heating the whole place.
A radiant or forced air heater can concentrate those BTU's where
you point it, wasting less heat elsewhere.

There are biological effects that cause you to feel warmer or colder
depending
on what parts of your body get heated how much.

So, for reason one, temperature and location of the heat source matters.
You might want a heater close to your lathe to prevent condensation.
That'll be cheaper than heating the whole room to that temperature.


Same for reason 2. You might want radiant heat closer to you.
If you can't get the tape off the roll when it's cold, you might
want to move the tape.

You have both devices. Run the experiment and collect data from the
utility meter. It's far easier than sorting thru all the crap you're
gonna get here.

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 28, 1:17*pm, "
wrote:
On Nov 28, 12:29*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic...

Per the law of physics, they are obviously idiots. *The
electric energy you are paying for, as registered by the
meter, is almost all converted to heat by an electric heater.
The tiny, negligible losses would be as heat in the wiring going from
the meter to the heater. *And even that is converted to heat.



You don't need to know what you're talking about to put
up stuff on the web.

There are legitimate differences in how that heat then
reaches the person in the room, how it's dispersed,
etc. * For example, a radiant electric heater that directs that
heat directly at where someone is sitting is going to be more
economical to run than an electric heater
that tries to heat the entire room. *But if they both run at
1000 watts they both have the same 100% efficeincy in
converting the electric that goes into them into heat.



P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner.
Why heat the shop when you're only there a small
percentage of the time? *Or buy one of the radiant heaters
with a dish that you can pick up at Costco or Walmart for $40.
The benefit to those, besides being energy efficient, is that
you get heat instantly. *Downside is that they are very
directional. *So, if you stay at one spot it could be good.
If you move around, soon as you're not in front of it, no heat.

"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

[Bob F]

DerbyDad03 wrote:
Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

The only difference might be a slight difference in how often they cycle on/off.

[Ralph Mowery]

wrote in message
...
On Nov 28, 12:29 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic...

Per the law of physics, they are obviously idiots. The
electric energy you are paying for, as registered by the
meter, is almost all converted to heat by an electric heater.
The tiny, negligible losses would be as heat in the wiring going from
the meter to the heater. And even that is converted to heat.

They sure are idiots. Here is a quote from there,

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a great
deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with 45% of the
energy for heating purposes"

What I want to know is where did the 65% of the enegery go ? Did it get
lost as heat ?? If so that would bring it back up to 100% If it got
converted to light, heating the elements to red, that light would hit
objects in the room converting back to heat.

The oil filled heaters must get the heat from somewhere, That means it
takes a while for the oil to heat and the room is not being heated with this
heat.

The only thing even near good about the other heaters is the IR types that
direct heat directly at you . You will be warm, but the other parts of the
room will be cold. If you sit in one spot to watch TV it is good, but if
you go to another chair, you need a coat.

[micky]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

Where does he think the rest of the heat goes? It's not what he
says, but maybe someone told him that 55%** of the energy was lost at
the power plant where oil or gas or sometimes coal is burned, and he
thinks that happens at the heater. The author doesn't even have a
name. how credible can he be?

I don't remember if this is a reasonable percentage or not.

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

The second is cheaper. If the shop is kept warm all the time, it
will be losing heat to the outside all the time.

In most climates, another way to save money and increase comfort
wouldl probably be to use a an electric hotplate to boil away a
soucepan of water and increase the humidity to 50% or so. I have a
humidifier on my furnace, and on occasion that the furnace hasn't
worked, I've boiled a big pot of water on the stove, or run an all-hot
shower** into a stoppered bathtub. If your workshop is only one room
a saucepan or two might be enough. Start with hot water.

**Be sure to get the soap out of the way. Also dangerous if you
forget the water is running and the tub overflows. So I switched to
the stove.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

[TWayne]

In ,
DerbyDad03 typed:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into
heat energy a great deal of it is lost. Therefore an
electrical heater is left with 45% of the energy for
heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

They're dsplaying more than just their ignorance; look for better
information! IIRC 100 watts is about 340 btu's; making easy samples to work
with.

If an electric heater consumes 100Watts, or creates 340 btu in the process
of running, the ONLY loss is heat in the wires and possible a transformer if
there is one. Efficiency is in the high 90 percentile no matter how you look
at it. That heat is given off by the heater's operation - ALL in the area to
be heated.
HOW can you claim then that the efficiency is around 45%? WHERE is the
other 55% of a 100W consumption going to then?
Total heat dissipated IN THE HEATER and AVAILABLE FOR HEATING will then
be in the order of 300+ btu, NOT 45% of 300!
However you've figured this out, you seem to have made a gross error or
are including things that you are lying by omission about.


P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should
use a constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low)
in my small workshop or should I run a small electric
heater with a fan only during those times when I'm in the
shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a few more
hours on weekends.

In your case, running anything 24/7 is going to be pretty costly for you no
matter what it is. IMO the best heat would be kerosene or #1 fuel oil, a
Reddy heater is similar, and a thermostat as made for such appliances.
You'll get a fast heat rise, good thermostatic action, and it can be turned
off when you're not useing it. I've coupled it up with a ceiling fan to keep
the heat curculating down off the ceiling and toward the floor, making
everything fairly cozy after an hour or so of running. And, it's switched
on/off with the shop lites so that it can't be forgotten and left on. A dual
pole switch kills the heater and the lights both.

HTH,

Twayne`

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

[micky]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:10:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over

I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't make
consumer space heaters this big. Breakers are usually 15 amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

That's hard to determine, but how much heat is radiated, conducted, or
convected to the outside when the shop is always warm, versus when it
is only warm a few hours a day is easier to compare. We know the
shop is losing heat or he would only have to warm it up once and it
woudl stay that way.

[Peter[_14_]]

On 11/28/2011 2:20 PM, Bob F wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:
Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

The only difference might be a slight difference in how often they cycle on/off.


If you only examine BTUs per KWH, the oil-filled heaters convert a
larger percentage of total energy to heat than to fan-based heaters
because with the fan, you are using some electricity to blow air rather
than using all of it to generate heat. That said, a fan-based heater
may be cheaper to operate if your specific requirements include rapid
heating of a volume of air (e.g., an entire room) and no prolonged
heating after the room has warmed.

For example, if I want to take a shower in a warmed bathroom, I would
need to turn on the oil-filled heater well before I undressed and
entered the shower to let the heater warm and then warm the room. With
a fan-based heater, the room might get comfortable in only a few
minutes. Also when I was out of the shower, the oil-based heater would
continue to provide heat to the room long after I was dressed and out of
the room. The fan-based heater stops generating heat almost
instantaneously when turned off. Therefore, even though an oil-based
heater will be more efficient in converting electricity to heat, the
fan-based heater, for that application, will use less electricity and be
cheaper to operate.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Nov 28, 2:10*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 28, 1:17*pm, "
wrote:





On Nov 28, 12:29*pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic....

Per the law of physics, they are obviously idiots. *The
electric energy you are paying for, as registered by the
meter, is almost all converted to heat by an electric heater.
The tiny, negligible losses would be as heat in the wiring going from
the meter to the heater. *And even that is converted to heat.

You don't need to know what you're talking about to put
up stuff on the web.

There are legitimate differences in how that heat then
reaches the person in the room, how it's dispersed,
etc. * For example, a radiant electric heater that directs that
heat directly at where someone is sitting is going to be more
economical to run than an electric heater
that tries to heat the entire room. *But if they both run at
1000 watts they both have the same 100% efficeincy in
converting the electric that goes into them into heat.

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner.
Why heat the shop when you're only there a small
percentage of the time? *Or buy one of the radiant heaters
with a dish that you can pick up at Costco or Walmart for $40.
The benefit to those, besides being energy efficient, is that
you get heat instantly. *Downside is that they are very
directional. *So, if you stay at one spot it could be good.
If you move around, soon as you're not in front of it, no heat.

"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Sure if one is 1000 watts and the other is 1500 watts
and you leave then on only for the same amount of time.
On the other hand, they will both use virtually the same
amount of energy to warm the room from say 60 to 65. One will just
do it faster. By doing it faster it might use
a bit less energy because a little less will be lost from
the room while it's raising the temp. But that is a small
difference in the grand scheme of things.



Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

I think the biggest difference is between a radiant type
heater and one that is going to warm the whole room.
Radiant warms mostly what is right in front of it. A
heater with a fan is going to warm the entire room.
Hence, if you can use a radiant, it's going to cost a lot
less to operate.



Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

Maybe. If you're sitting next to the oil filled heater, you
may have it cycling less. If you're trying to heat the
whole room, probably about the same.



If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Since you have two different heaters you could find out
how much they actually cost to run with a killawatt meter.
However it would have to be over the same period with
the same temp conditions, which is often hard to do.

[Jim Elbrecht]

" wrote:


-snip-
Why heat the shop when you're only there a small
percentage of the time? Or buy one of the radiant heaters
with a dish that you can pick up at Costco or Walmart for $40.
The benefit to those, besides being energy efficient, is that
you get heat instantly. Downside is that they are very
directional. So, if you stay at one spot it could be good.
If you move around, soon as you're not in front of it, no heat.

And if you have your back to them, with a 10" crescent wrench sticking
out of your coverall pocket-- when you grab it with your bare hand it
will leave a blister. DAMHIKT.

Jim

[Tony Miklos[_2_]]

On 11/28/2011 3:11 PM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:10:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over

I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't make
consumer space heaters this big. Breakers are usually 15 amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

I just bought one that is 5.6KW. It is however run on 240vac and on a
30 amp breaker.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 15:11:48 -0500, micky
wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:10:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:


"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over

I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't make
consumer space heaters this big. Breakers are usually 15 amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

Virtually every one I have is 1500 watts on high and 750 0n low
(except for the 3000 watt 240 volt 'construction cube" in the garage.)

the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

That's hard to determine, but how much heat is radiated, conducted, or
convected to the outside when the shop is always warm, versus when it
is only warm a few hours a day is easier to compare. We know the
shop is losing heat or he would only have to warm it up once and it
woudl stay that way.

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 28, 3:11*pm, micky wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:10:28 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

wrote:

"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over

I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't make
consumer space heaters this big. *Breakers are usually 15 amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

You are right...sample numbers.

The only reason I tossed out those numbers is because the 2 kW figure
was used here, in a document which appears to be directed towards
"facility managers", not homeowners.

http://www.focusonenergy.com/files/d...nicalsheet.pdf

"For example, if you operate a 2 kW electric heater for five hours, it
consumes 2 kW x 5 hrs = 10 kWh"


the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

That's hard to determine, but how much heat is radiated, conducted, or
convected to the outside when the shop is always warm, versus when it
is only warm a few hours a day is easier to compare. * *We know the
shop is losing heat or he would only have to warm it up once and it
woudl stay that way.

[Ralph Mowery]

"Peter" wrote in message
...
If you only examine BTUs per KWH, the oil-filled heaters convert a larger
percentage of total energy to heat than to fan-based heaters because with
the fan, you are using some electricity to blow air rather than using all
of it to generate heat. That said, a fan-based heater may be cheaper to
operate if your specific requirements include rapid heating of a volume of
air (e.g., an entire room) and no prolonged heating after the room has
warmed.

While the fan takes power to blow the air, the motor generates heat due to
the efficiency of it, and the air that is blown around will still make heat
as the air molecules bump into each other. Still 100% of the power is
converted to heat provided there are no doors or windows open for the small
amount of IR and light that may escape.

In any closed room , there is no differance in the conversion to heat. Some
heaters may feel warmer if you are next to them, while the other parts of
the room will stay cold or take much longer to heat up.

[Stormin Mormon]

No, it just means that the oil heater uses more watts while
it's on, to warm up the oil.

IIRC, a 1500 watt heater produces 5200 BTU per hour. I've
heard the ceramic ones are more efficient than the filament
type. I've no data to prove this.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"DerbyDad03"
wrote in message
...


Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are
oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the
oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

[Stormin Mormon]

How long does it take to dry your clothes?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...

I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't
make
consumer space heaters this big. Breakers are usually 15
amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will
almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

I just bought one that is 5.6KW. It is however run on
240vac and on a
30 amp breaker.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

DerbyDad03 wrote:

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?


Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

For electric heaters, it's easy. Compare the amperage.


Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If an oil-based heater retains some heat after the heating element is off,
then obviously not all the heat got into the room when the heating element
was on.


If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

No, all you need to know is the power draw.

[Ed Pawlowski]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:




P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". I'd like to see some real numbers on output.

•An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
•An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:




P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small
workshop or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only
during those times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights
a week and a few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". I'd like to see some real numbers on output.

.An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
.An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.

"Conserve heat"? What does that mean? Conserve it so it can be passed on to
our children and grandchildren?

Nobody wants to "conserve" heat; they want all available heat dumped into
the environment in which the heater is located.

And what is this notion that electric heaters only convert 45% of the
available energy into heat when in truth they convert 100% of the electrical
energy to heat?

Ceramic and oil-filled heaters do NOT have lower running costs. Both equal
coil-type electric heaters in that they convert 100% of the available energy
into heat. Virtually ALL heaters that plug into the wall are equivalent in
total heat output.

[Nono]

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:




P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small
workshop or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only
during those times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights
a week and a few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". I'd like to see some real numbers on output.

.An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
.An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.

"Conserve heat"? What does that mean? Conserve it so it can be passed on
to our children and grandchildren?

Nobody wants to "conserve" heat; they want all available heat dumped into
the environment in which the heater is located.

And what is this notion that electric heaters only convert 45% of the
available energy into heat when in truth they convert 100% of the
electrical energy to heat?

Ceramic and oil-filled heaters do NOT have lower running costs. Both equal
coil-type electric heaters in that they convert 100% of the available
energy into heat. Virtually ALL heaters that plug into the wall are
equivalent in total heat output.

Well said. 1 watt = 3.414 BTU of heat (at least since the 1870s when it was
defined). No exceptions so far.

Tomsic

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 28, 10:03*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

wrote:

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. *If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

10 x 15 shop which serves as the basement for a family room extension
off the rear of the house. The shop has 3 exterior concrete block
walls (all above ground due to the slope of the lot) which are 2 x 4
studded, insulated, and drywalled. The ceiling (2 x 8 joists) is also
insulated to dampen the sound and to try to keep the family room floor
a little warmer.

The room never gets all that cold since it is part of the basement and
there is some air circulation from the main part of the basement,
especially if I leave the door open.

The small fan based electric heater that I've been using for years
does a more than adequate job of heating the space. Depending on how
long I'm in the shop and how active I am, I am often able to lower or
even turn off the heater after a while.

I was thinking that if I ran the oil filled heater on low it would not
only keep the room warm all of the time but might also help with the
floor in the family room. Even if there is no operating cost
difference between the fan based heater and oiled filled heater, I'd
prefer the silence and no moving parts of the oil over the fan.



As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. *I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". *I'd like to see some real numbers on output.

•An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
•An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.

[Stormin Mormon]

I think the Obama Watt is about 4.216 BTU, but our grand
kids will have to work for the rest of their lives to pay
for it. The Bush Watt is about 3.142 watts, but the economy
sure took off.

I know; I know. Don't feed the trolls or the politics.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Nono" wrote in message
...

Well said. 1 watt = 3.414 BTU of heat (at least since the
1870s when it was
defined). No exceptions so far.

Tomsic

[Stormin Mormon]

I can't remember what your furnace fuel source is. My
experiences with electric devices include having electric
baseboard heat one time. Nearly bankrupt me. And the time I
did some carpet cleaning in my trailer, and ran a
dehumidifier, which really increased my electric bill.

My counsell is to put a vent on one of the ducts from your
furnace, or find a way to circulate air. So that the furnace
is the heat source. Much cheaper, over the long run.

You can put carpet in the family room, or maybe some
insulation under the floor.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"DerbyDad03"
wrote in message
...


10 x 15 shop which serves as the basement for a family room
extension
off the rear of the house. The shop has 3 exterior concrete
block
walls (all above ground due to the slope of the lot) which
are 2 x 4
studded, insulated, and drywalled. The ceiling (2 x 8
joists) is also
insulated to dampen the sound and to try to keep the family
room floor
a little warmer.

The room never gets all that cold since it is part of the
basement and
there is some air circulation from the main part of the
basement,
especially if I leave the door open.

The small fan based electric heater that I've been using for
years
does a more than adequate job of heating the space.
Depending on how
long I'm in the shop and how active I am, I am often able to
lower or
even turn off the heater after a while.

I was thinking that if I ran the oil filled heater on low it
would not
only keep the room warm all of the time but might also help
with the
floor in the family room. Even if there is no operating cost
difference between the fan based heater and oiled filled
heater, I'd
prefer the silence and no moving parts of the oil over the
fan.

[Tony Miklos[_2_]]

On 11/28/2011 6:46 PM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
How long does it take to dry your clothes?


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...
I know these were just sample numbers, but FTR, they don't
make
consumer space heaters this big. Breakers are usually 15
amps which
would be 1.6KW, but they don't make heaters that will
almost trip the
breaker. Big ones aree usually 10 amps, 1100 watts.

I just bought one that is 5.6KW. It is however run on
240vac and on a
30 amp breaker.

Wrong guess, it's a space heater with a fan, although it is being used
in the garage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200671992668... 4.m1423.l2649

[Tony Miklos[_2_]]

On 11/28/2011 7:02 PM, HeyBub wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?


Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

For electric heaters, it's easy. Compare the amperage.

No, compare the wattage.

[Bud--]

On 11/28/2011 1:10 PM, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On Nov 28, 1:17 pm,
wrote:
On Nov 28, 12:29 pm, wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic...

Per the law of physics, they are obviously idiots. The
electric energy you are paying for, as registered by the
meter, is almost all converted to heat by an electric heater.
The tiny, negligible losses would be as heat in the wiring going from
the meter to the heater. And even that is converted to heat.



You don't need to know what you're talking about to put
up stuff on the web.

There are legitimate differences in how that heat then
reaches the person in the room, how it's dispersed,
etc. For example, a radiant electric heater that directs that
heat directly at where someone is sitting is going to be more
economical to run than an electric heater
that tries to heat the entire room. But if they both run at
1000 watts they both have the same 100% efficeincy in
converting the electric that goes into them into heat.



P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner.
Why heat the shop when you're only there a small
percentage of the time? Or buy one of the radiant heaters
with a dish that you can pick up at Costco or Walmart for $40.
The benefit to those, besides being energy efficient, is that
you get heat instantly. Downside is that they are very
directional. So, if you stay at one spot it could be good.
If you move around, soon as you're not in front of it, no heat.

"IMO, the electric heater with a fan is the clear winner."

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?

Depends on the application.

Fan type can transfer heat to the air faster. Heating to a comfortable
temperature if you are infrequently in the shop should be a lot cheaper
(as trader said above).

In general, a fan type can be aimed at where you are which can localize
the heat more (with other areas colder).

Radiant could also localize the heat (as trader said above). Electric
radiant ceilings and probably floors (like hydronic ones) can be
comfortable at lower air temperatures, which can reduce energy consumption.

The heaters with Amish built cabinets are best of all with a large
advantage for the manufacturer.

You can't just compare on wattage. The amount of time the heater is on
has to be included. A fan unit that infrequently heats a shop should be
higher wattage than a heater that keeps the shop heated.


Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

Disregarding the specific situation regarding my shop, are oil-filled
heaters cheaper to operate than fan-based heaters since the oil
retains/emits the heat even when the element is off?

If I wanted to determine how much it costs to run an oil-filled heater
"24/7" I'd need to know how often it actually cycled, which would be
based on the temperature of the space, which of course would vary over
time.

The major advantage of oil-filled electric heaters is that the heat
transfer is over a much larger area than with rod type electric
elements. The surface temperature is much lower. In a baseboard unit,
oil filled is not likely to cause a fire. And if I remember right
receptacles can be in the wall above them, but not above a rod type
baseboard.

--
bud--

[Stormin Mormon]

Ah, well. I figured that amps and volts would have been
clothes dryer. Looks like a nice heater. Probably expensive
to run.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...

I just bought one that is 5.6KW. It is however run on
240vac and on a
30 amp breaker.

Wrong guess, it's a space heater with a fan, although it is
being used
in the garage.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/200671992668... 4.m1423.l2649

[Tony Miklos[_2_]]

On 11/29/2011 11:17 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Ah, well. I figured that amps and volts would have been
clothes dryer. Looks like a nice heater. Probably expensive
to run.


Around here electric heat costs about the same as propane.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 22:03:38 -0500, Ed Pawlowski wrote:

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:




P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". I'd like to see some real numbers on output.


Heat output is the same. If you open a door and let some heat out, the
oil filled MAY recover heat in the room faster than an "open coil"
type heater, and the temperature will be more even - less "on-off"
effect
€¢An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
€¢An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.
IIn a closed room there is NO DIFFERENCE in actual operating cost .

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 07:20:01 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

On Nov 28, 10:03Â*pm, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03

wrote:

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

How big of a shop and how low of an outside temperature?

The typical electric heater will put out 1500 watts or 5000 BTU. Â*If
the outside temperature is below 40, it is not worth even plugging in.
In my garage/shop I used a 30,000 BTU unit and it was not enough below
20F so I bought a 60,000 BTU unit.

10 x 15 shop which serves as the basement for a family room extension
off the rear of the house. The shop has 3 exterior concrete block
walls (all above ground due to the slope of the lot) which are 2 x 4
studded, insulated, and drywalled. The ceiling (2 x 8 joists) is also
insulated to dampen the sound and to try to keep the family room floor
a little warmer.

The room never gets all that cold since it is part of the basement and
there is some air circulation from the main part of the basement,
especially if I leave the door open.

The small fan based electric heater that I've been using for years
does a more than adequate job of heating the space. Depending on how
long I'm in the shop and how active I am, I am often able to lower or
even turn off the heater after a while.

I was thinking that if I ran the oil filled heater on low it would not
only keep the room warm all of the time but might also help with the
floor in the family room. Even if there is no operating cost
difference between the fan based heater and oiled filled heater, I'd
prefer the silence and no moving parts of the oil over the fan.



As for the article you refer to, it is poorly written rubbish. Â*I have
no idea what they are talking about oil filled units "conserving more
heat". Â*I'd like to see some real numbers on output.

€¢An electrical heater loses 55% of energy to produce heat. Ceramic
heaters conserve 85% of the energy. Oil filled radiant heaters have a
larger surface area and can provide heat for an extended period of
time.
€¢An electrical heater comes with high running costs. Ceramic and oil
filled radiant heaters have lower running costs as they conserve more
heat.
Oil filled is radiant/convection,conduction. Fan type is forced air,
so different heating patterns - but the same amount of heat. The fan
forced heats more air - the oil filled heats air more (warmer close to
the heater - but does not distribute the heat as well/far)

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:24:47 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

I can't remember what your furnace fuel source is. My
experiences with electric devices include having electric
baseboard heat one time. Nearly bankrupt me. And the time I
did some carpet cleaning in my trailer, and ran a
dehumidifier, which really increased my electric bill.

My counsell is to put a vent on one of the ducts from your
furnace, or find a way to circulate air. So that the furnace
is the heat source. Much cheaper, over the long run.

You can put carpet in the family room, or maybe some
insulation under the floor.
He's GOT 8 inches of insulation under the family room floor,
apparently.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:39:29 -0500, Tony Miklos
wrote:

On 11/28/2011 7:02 PM, HeyBub wrote:
DerbyDad03 wrote:

Even though all electric heaters are 100% efficient, one type vs.
another could be cheaper to operate, right?


Obviously 100% of 2 kW is going to cost less than 100% of 5 kW over
the same time period, but how does one compare the various types of
heaters to determine the operating cost?

For electric heaters, it's easy. Compare the amperage.

No, compare the wattage.
which, at the same voltage, is the same thing (being a straight
resistive load)

[Stormin Mormon]

Propane works when the electric is gone out. And, one friend
of mine who hasn't much income knows that electric works
when the propane has run out. I'm sure the space heater is
expensive.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Tony Miklos" wrote in message
...
On 11/29/2011 11:17 AM, Stormin Mormon wrote:
Ah, well. I figured that amps and volts would have been
clothes dryer. Looks like a nice heater. Probably
expensive
to run.


Around here electric heat costs about the same as propane.

[DerbyDad03]

On Nov 29, 1:27*pm, wrote:
On Tue, 29 Nov 2011 10:24:47 -0500, "Stormin Mormon"

wrote:
I can't remember what your furnace fuel source is. My
experiences with electric devices include having electric
baseboard heat one time. Nearly bankrupt me. And the time I
did some carpet cleaning in my trailer, and ran a
dehumidifier, which really increased my electric bill.

My counsell is to put a vent on one of the ducts from your
furnace, or find a way to circulate air. So that the furnace
is the heat source. Much cheaper, over the long run.

You can put carpet in the family room, or maybe some
insulation under the floor.

*He's GOT 8 inches of insulation under the family room floor,
apparently.

Thank you...and yes there is carpet on the floor also.

[[email protected]]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

When electric energy is converted to to heat it goes thru a resistive
type of wire. While the electricity is being converted to heat, much
of the energy is lost as heat, thus you're wasting much of the
electricity in the form of heat.

[Nono]

wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03
wrote:

I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...diant-heaters/

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

When electric energy is converted to to heat it goes thru a resistive
type of wire. While the electricity is being converted to heat, much
of the energy is lost as heat, thus you're wasting much of the
electricity in the form of heat.

There's a third type of heater that would end up using the least
electricity, but it would require an initial investment.

Since the 1950s, there have been tubular "lamps" available called quartz
infrared heaters. They emit both heat and a substantial amount of light.
Compared to other types of electric heaters, they emit shorter wavelengths
of infrared. Those shorter wavelengths heats things (people and objects),
not air. In your workshop you would need to have them on only when you are
there and want heat. The heat is instantaneous. It feels like sunshine.

I have two quartz infrared heaters in my garage - each 1500 watts. When
it's cold and I'm there working on the car or bagging trash, it's warm. I
just switch them on and off as needed. The light is a bonus.

Such heaters are widely used for snow melting, paint drying and cooking.

Tomsic

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Nov 30, 8:07*am, wrote:
On Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:29:20 -0800 (PST), DerbyDad03





wrote:
I thought that all electric heaters were 100% efficient.

What is this site talking about when they say:

"During the process of converting electrical energy into heat energy a
great deal of it is lost. Therefore an electrical heater is left with
45% of the energy for heating purposes."

http://recomparison.com/comparisons/...ter-vs-ceramic...

P.S. I'm back to struggling with whether or not I should use a
constantly running oil-filled heater (set on low) in my small workshop
or should I run a small electric heater with a fan only during those
times when I'm in the shop, usually a couple of nights a week and a
few more hours on weekends.

I have both, so the initial cost is not a factor.

When electric energy is converted to to heat it goes thru a resistive
type of wire. *While the electricity is being converted to heat, much
of the energy is lost as heat, thus you're wasting much of the
electricity in the form of heat. *- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

What a genius....