[Steve B[_10_]]

I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver walkway
of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a repeat in it. You
get your base prepared, lay the form on there, pour concrete in the holes,
pat it down, and immediately remove the form. You have approx. 2 sf of
pavers. You fill in between with sand, or let the grass grow in there.

Anyone ever use one of these? It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks
to do this job. Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

Steve

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:
I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver
walkway of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a
repeat in it. You get your base prepared, lay the form on there,
pour concrete in the holes, pat it down, and immediately remove the
form. You have approx. 2 sf of pavers. You fill in between with
sand, or let the grass grow in there.
Anyone ever use one of these? It is surely going to take a lot of
80# sacks to do this job. Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

If you plan to do 20 sq.ft. of pavers, you should be good to go. If you
plan to do 200 feet, I would re-think the plan; actually, I'd buy the stone
or pavers. And if you are doing pavers and buy them, I would opt for clay
rather than concrete as eventually the color in the concrete will disappear
unless it is "color through"; in either case, the aggregate in the concrete
will eventually be exposed, looks like hell IMO, YMMV.

In either case, the base is all...good base, the results will last. Around
here (central Florida), 3" of compacted base - crushed concrete is often
used - is standard for light duty. You also need something to contain them
laterally; various aluminum/steel/plastic landscape edging is often used but
I like concrete better.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:
I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver
walkway of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a
repeat in it. You get your base prepared, lay the form on there,
pour concrete in the holes, pat it down, and immediately remove the
form. You have approx. 2 sf of pavers. You fill in between with
sand, or let the grass grow in there.
Anyone ever use one of these? It is surely going to take a lot of
80# sacks to do this job. Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

If you plan to do 20 sq.ft. of pavers, you should be good to go. If you
plan to do 200 feet, I would re-think the plan; actually, I'd buy the stone
or pavers. And if you are doing pavers and buy them, I would opt for clay
rather than concrete as eventually the color in the concrete will disappear
unless it is "color through"; in either case, the aggregate in the concrete
will eventually be exposed, looks like hell IMO, YMMV.

In either case, the base is all...good base, the results will last. Around
here (central Florida), 3" of compacted base - crushed concrete is often
used - is standard for light duty. You also need something to contain them
laterally; various aluminum/steel/plastic landscape edging is often used but
I like concrete better.



--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 09:09:58 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:

I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver walkway
of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a repeat in it. You
get your base prepared, lay the form on there, pour concrete in the holes,
pat it down, and immediately remove the form. You have approx. 2 sf of
pavers. You fill in between with sand, or let the grass grow in there.

Anyone ever use one of these? It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks
to do this job. Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

My sister used the 'flagstone' ones for a sidewalk at her place. Her
husband did the mixing and she did the filling/forming and whatever
else it took.

I saw the results a couple years later & was impressed, actually. They
are in the woods in NY with less than ideal subsoil and lots of frost
that comes and goes several times a winter..

Between your hard caliche and winters that get cold and stay that
way[if I remember your area right] - it should work fine for you.

I'm with DadiOH on the pavers though-- So much more forgiving and
easier to change later. And probably cheaper if you're buying
bagged concrete. [especially vs used pavers which are abundant on
Craigslist]

Jim

[Home Guy]

Steve B wrote:

I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver
walkway of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a
repeat in it. You get your base prepared, lay the form on there,
pour concrete in the holes, pat it down, and immediately remove the
form.

If you don't mix the concrete correctly (ie - if you use too much water)
then the minute you remove the form, the concrete will ooze together and
the gap between stones will disappear.

You have approx. 2 sf of pavers.

Assuming this form is 3" high, then 2 sq ft x 3" is about .5 a cubic
foot of concrete (without taking the gaps into account).

Anyone ever use one of these?

I haven't.

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

I've mixed an estimated 420 cubic feet (15.5 cubic yards) of concrete
using a small 1.5 cf electric mixer over the past few years. I buy sand
and stone right from the quary and load it into my pickup truck myself,
so it costs me about $20 a ton for 1/2" crushed stone, and washed brick
sand is twice that. Cement costs about $12 a bag (40 kg or 88 lbs).

If you buy sand and stone already pre-bagged as 30-lb bags, then it's
going to cost significantly more to make concrete.

I also use pigments, super-plasticiser and air-entrainment agent, but I
won't take that cost into account here.

Taking only the cost of sand, stone, and cement into account, I figure
it costs me about $3.42 per cubic foot to make cement (equates to $92 a
cubic yard).

So going by those numbers, it would cost roughly $3.50 to make enough
concrete to do 2 of your forms (4 square feet).

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb bag
of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough to fill
your form about 7 times.

Your average paver might be 6" x 6" and it would take 16 of them to
cover 4 square feet, and they'd have to cost 22 cents each to be
cost-equivalent to the concrete-in-form method.

The form method has a nice advantage in that your top surface will be
nice and even and flat, something that can take a while to do when
you're putzing with pavers. But you have to get the consistency exactly
right if you want to remove the form right after you pour the concrete
and not have the gaps get filled in right away. Even then, I would
suggest you have the sand ready to pour into the gaps when you remove
the form.

[Home Guy]

Home Guy wrote:

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb
bag of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough
to fill your form about 7 times.

Correction - 11 times.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve B wrote:

I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver
walkway of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a
repeat in it. You get your base prepared, lay the form on there,
pour concrete in the holes, pat it down, and immediately remove the
form.

If you don't mix the concrete correctly (ie - if you use too much water)
then the minute you remove the form, the concrete will ooze together and
the gap between stones will disappear.

You have approx. 2 sf of pavers.

Assuming this form is 3" high, then 2 sq ft x 3" is about .5 a cubic
foot of concrete (without taking the gaps into account).

Anyone ever use one of these?

I haven't.

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

I've mixed an estimated 420 cubic feet (15.5 cubic yards) of concrete
using a small 1.5 cf electric mixer over the past few years. I buy sand
and stone right from the quary and load it into my pickup truck myself,
so it costs me about $20 a ton for 1/2" crushed stone, and washed brick
sand is twice that. Cement costs about $12 a bag (40 kg or 88 lbs).

If you buy sand and stone already pre-bagged as 30-lb bags, then it's
going to cost significantly more to make concrete.

I also use pigments, super-plasticiser and air-entrainment agent, but I
won't take that cost into account here.

Taking only the cost of sand, stone, and cement into account, I figure
it costs me about $3.42 per cubic foot to make cement (equates to $92 a
cubic yard).

So going by those numbers, it would cost roughly $3.50 to make enough
concrete to do 2 of your forms (4 square feet).

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb bag
of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough to fill
your form about 7 times.

Your average paver might be 6" x 6" and it would take 16 of them to
cover 4 square feet, and they'd have to cost 22 cents each to be
cost-equivalent to the concrete-in-form method.

The form method has a nice advantage in that your top surface will be
nice and even and flat, something that can take a while to do when
you're putzing with pavers. But you have to get the consistency exactly
right if you want to remove the form right after you pour the concrete
and not have the gaps get filled in right away. Even then, I would
suggest you have the sand ready to pour into the gaps when you remove
the form.

Reading the directions (WTF do they know?), it suggests one form per 80#
bag, which sounds a little fishy, but I won't know until I am into it. I
want to have stained concrete, so if I get a consistent setup going, I can
just use the same amount of water, and the same number of spoons of
colorant, and it should come up close.

The 80# bags are right at $4 per bag in my area, making it $2 per square
foot. Pavers are $.59 and $.99 respectively for the 5.5" and 5.5 x 8".
Doing fast math on that, that's $3.27 per sf for the biggies, and $2.80 for
the smaller. Correct me if I am wrong.

Still not sure how to go.

Steve

I may, however, check out the craigslist paver thing, though, as I do like
the look of them much more.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Home Guy wrote:

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb
bag of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough
to fill your form about 7 times.

Correction - 11 times.

That would be if I used cement, sand, lime, sand, and aggregate. How many
cu. ft. in one 80# sack of premix?

Steve

[Home Guy]

Steve B wrote:

Reading the directions (WTF do they know?), it suggests one form
per 80# bag, which sounds a little fishy, but I won't know until
I am into it.

They're talking about a bag of pre-mixed concrete, which you just add
water.

Concrete weighs about 145 lbs per cubic foot. An 80 lb bag of pre-mix
would give you about 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete.

You haven't said how high your form is - I'm still assuming that it's 3"
high, and it requires 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete to fill it. As the
instructions say - one 80 lb bag of pre-mix would fill the form, so it
must be close to 3" high (probably a little more, maybe 3.25").

I want to have stained concrete, so if I get a consistent setup
going, I can just use the same amount of water, and the same
number of spoons of colorant, and it should come up close.

How many pours do you intend on doing?

Do you have a mixer?

The 80# bags are right at $4 per bag in my area, making it $2 per
square foot.

The concrete you're making with the pre-mix is costing you $7.25 per
cubic foot. That's about double the price if you were to buy the sand
and stone in bulk and mix it yourself. It all comes down to how many sf
you need.

Pavers are $.59 and $.99 respectively for the 5.5" and 5.5 x 8".

If you mean that the small ones are 5.5 x 5.5, then you need 4 of those
per sf (and even then you won't exactly get a real square foot unless
you have big gaps between them). If they cost 59 cents each and you
need 8 of them to cover 2 sf, then that's $4.72 for the small ones.

You need 6.5 of the larger ones to cover 2 sf, so at 99 cents each
that's $6.43.

Doing fast math on that, that's $3.27 per sf for the biggies,
and $2.80 for the smaller. Correct me if I am wrong.

My numbers are for 2 sf, yours are for 1 sf - and they seem off. Unless
you're taking their exact size into account.

Still not sure how to go.

Using the pre-mixed stuff, it's almost the same price per sf as using
the 5.5 pavers. If you factor in the cost of the pigment, you could
easily double the cost of going the concrete way (pigment isin't cheap).

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

[Home Guy]

Steve B wrote:

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or
88 lb bag of cement using a standard mix formula, which would
be enough to fill your form about 11 times.

That would be if I used cement, sand, lime, sand, and aggregate.

You won't need lime. And you don't need to use sand twice.

The aggregate is just crushed stone. For something with small details
like your paver form, I'd use 1/2" crushed stone - not the standard 3/4"
size.

How many cu. ft. in one 80# sack of premix?

I mentioned this in my previous post, but just to answer it here, and
assuming 5 lbs of water, then your 80 lb bag will give you about .58
cubic feet of concrete.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Steve

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote

You haven't said how high your form is - I'm still assuming that it's 3"
high, and it requires 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete to fill it. As the
instructions say - one 80 lb bag of pre-mix would fill the form, so it
must be close to 3" high (probably a little more, maybe 3.25").

Form is 1.75" high. Need to do 800-1,000 sf.

Steve

[willshak]

Steve B wrote the following:
"Home Guy" wrote

You haven't said how high your form is - I'm still assuming that it's 3"
high, and it requires 1/2 a cubic foot of concrete to fill it. As the
instructions say - one 80 lb bag of pre-mix would fill the form, so it
must be close to 3" high (probably a little more, maybe 3.25").

Form is 1.75" high. Need to do 800-1,000 sf.

Steve



According to http://www.quikrete.com/calculator/main.asp
800 SF of 80# bags for 4" thick slab would be 449 bags.
If you only intend to have a 3" thick slab, that would be 3/4th the
amount of bags, or 337 bags.
For 1000 SF @ 4", that would be 561 bags.
For a 3" slab, that would be 421 bags.

--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

[Home Guy]

Steve B wrote:

You haven't said how high your form is - I'm still assuming
that it's 3" high

Form is 1.75" high.

You claim that your form has a surface area of 2 square feet, and it has
a height of 1.75 inches.

That would give it a total volume of 0.29 cubic feet.

That much concrete would weigh 42 lbs. A single 80 lb bag of pre-mix
could easily fill 2 forms.

What is the length and width of your form?

Is it 2 feet by 1 foot? Or is it 2 x 2 feet?

Need to do 800-1,000 sf.

If your form really is only 2 square feet in area, then you will be
using it 400 times to give you 800 sq feet.

It will take you a minumum of 10 minutes to mix one 80 lb bag of premix,
and another say 10 minutes to pour it, smooth it, remove the form and
set it into a new position and pour the remainder of the mix, smooth it,
remove the form and set it into the next position. That's 20 minutes,
and you'll do that 200 times. If you get good at it, let's say 15
minutes. Times 200 is 3,000 minutes or 50 hours. If you can do that
for one 6-hour stretch during a single day, then it will take you 8 or 9
days.

But getting back to your form. 1.75 inches isin't very thick, but I
suppose it's thick enough to support people walking on it.

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:52:53 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Then personally I think you're nuts. [in a nice way- and I've been
there, too. But still--]

Cost alone, you're certainly going to be able to make a better deal on
Craigslist with a little patience. I've seen patios free for the
removal. Too far away for me to haul in my 1/2 ton trailer-- but
tempting.

..50-$1. is the usual asking price & if you show up with a truck a few
greenbacks those things are negotiable.

The only way I'd be tempted to make my own pavers for a job that size
would be if it was a pattern/color that I just couldn't live without.
And then I'd probably make them first and lay them like pavers- not as
a pour-a-foot-or-two at a time job.

I think those things are good for a small job where you mix a batch by
hand each day for a couple weeks. For your job you'll want 3-4
forms, mix in the mixer-- and then clean it out 2-3 times a day,
trying to keep the mix uniform through all kinds of weather.

Jim

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in message
...
Steve B wrote:

I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver
walkway of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a
repeat in it. You get your base prepared, lay the form on there,
pour concrete in the holes, pat it down, and immediately remove the
form.

If you don't mix the concrete correctly (ie - if you use too much
water) then the minute you remove the form, the concrete will ooze
together and the gap between stones will disappear.

You have approx. 2 sf of pavers.

Assuming this form is 3" high, then 2 sq ft x 3" is about .5 a cubic
foot of concrete (without taking the gaps into account).

Anyone ever use one of these?

I haven't.

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

I've mixed an estimated 420 cubic feet (15.5 cubic yards) of concrete
using a small 1.5 cf electric mixer over the past few years. I buy
sand and stone right from the quary and load it into my pickup truck
myself, so it costs me about $20 a ton for 1/2" crushed stone, and
washed brick sand is twice that. Cement costs about $12 a bag (40
kg or 88 lbs). If you buy sand and stone already pre-bagged as 30-lb
bags, then it's
going to cost significantly more to make concrete.

I also use pigments, super-plasticiser and air-entrainment agent,
but I won't take that cost into account here.

Taking only the cost of sand, stone, and cement into account, I
figure it costs me about $3.42 per cubic foot to make cement
(equates to $92 a cubic yard).

So going by those numbers, it would cost roughly $3.50 to make enough
concrete to do 2 of your forms (4 square feet).

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb
bag of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough to
fill your form about 7 times.

Your average paver might be 6" x 6" and it would take 16 of them to
cover 4 square feet, and they'd have to cost 22 cents each to be
cost-equivalent to the concrete-in-form method.

The form method has a nice advantage in that your top surface will be
nice and even and flat, something that can take a while to do when
you're putzing with pavers. But you have to get the consistency
exactly right if you want to remove the form right after you pour
the concrete and not have the gaps get filled in right away. Even
then, I would suggest you have the sand ready to pour into the gaps
when you remove the form.

Reading the directions (WTF do they know?), it suggests one form per
80# bag, which sounds a little fishy, but I won't know until I am
into it. I want to have stained concrete, so if I get a consistent
setup going, I can just use the same amount of water, and the same
number of spoons of colorant, and it should come up close.

The 80# bags are right at $4 per bag in my area, making it $2 per
square foot. Pavers are $.59 and $.99 respectively for the 5.5" and
5.5 x 8". Doing fast math on that, that's $3.27 per sf for the
biggies, and $2.80 for the smaller. Correct me if I am wrong.

Around here (central Florida) concrete pavers from Home Depot run in the
range of $1.40 ("Holland") to $2.20 per sq.ft. If you can buy by pallets,
you can get them for a lot less from manufacturers/distributers.

I had a 1750 sq.ft. courtyard done a year ago, cost me a total of $5.00 per
sq.ft...$2.50 sq.ft for clay brick, the same for all other materials and
labor. Clay brick is a bit more than concrete but well worth the cost IMO
for the reasons previously stated.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Steve

GOOD GRIEF, man, you will kill yourself!

We all have different pain thresholds but I wouldn't even consider
prepping/mixing/pouring that much for pavers. Even prepping and using store
bought pavers would give me pause. If I were you I'd check around and see
how much a contractor would charge. WARNING: their prices will be all over
the map but if you are persistent you can find someone to do the job for a
decent price.

In my area, most all paver installs are being done by Brazilians. Some
enterprising Brazilian gets a bunch of workers from his country and hires
them out as a team to the contractors. The contractor adds some to his
cost, the Brazilian honcho takes a cut and pays the actual workers what's
left. They work hard, know what they are doing and do a good job.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Jim Elbrecht]

On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 08:46:35 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Steve B wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Steve

GOOD GRIEF, man, you will kill yourself!

We all have different pain thresholds but I wouldn't even consider
prepping/mixing/pouring that much for pavers.

This part we're in agreement on.

Even prepping and using store
bought pavers would give me pause. If I were you I'd check around and see
how much a contractor would charge.

We disagree on this- unless Steve has a deadline. To me the beauty
of pavers is that once the prep work is done you can go out and set
5-6 while you're waiting for the missus to fix her hair. When she
comes out, you take off your gloves and get in the car. Or you can
set a couple 100 when it is nice and cool one day. I have a 15'
octagon that I've been playing with most of the summer. I can't
ever work more than an hour & sometimes I can only do that once a
week.

I did 4-500 sq' 5-6 years ago at the same pace. It still looks as
good as the day I finished. [maybe better]

Jim

[Home Guy]

dadiOH wrote:

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Steve

GOOD GRIEF, man, you will kill yourself!

He should probably also look into stamped concrete, assuming that a
concrete truck can get close enough and drainage of the area isin't an
issue.

I also don't know if we're talking about a large rectangular area (40 x
20, 30 x 30, etc) or is this a 2-foot wide path that's 450 feet long?

He would need 8.3 yards of concrete to do 900 sq feet, 3" deep. Or 5.5
yards if it was 2" deep.

The smaller concrete mixing trucks come in a variety of sizes, from
about 3 to 6 cubic yards, and the large trucks can carry 10 cubic
yards. Most will want to do an order of 5 cy minimum.

The cost per delivered yard has basically doubled over the past 5 years,
to about $120 to $150 per cy.

So assuming 7 cubic yards and $140 per yard delivered, he'd be looking
at about $1000 for concrete. Coloring, form work and stamping would be
extra. Even if that cost another $1000, then he's looking at $2000 for
900 sq feet, or about $2.25 per sq ft.

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:31:45 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Home Guy wrote:

It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks to do this job.
Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

You can make about 5.5 cubic feet of concrete with one 80 or 88 lb
bag of cement using a standard mix formula, which would be enough
to fill your form about 7 times.

Correction - 11 times.

That would be if I used cement, sand, lime, sand, and aggregate. How many
cu. ft. in one 80# sack of premix?

I use 2/3 cu.ft. per bag to size forms and come very close.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:52:53 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Then personally I think you're nuts. [in a nice way- and I've been
there, too. But still--]

Jim, you would have to understand my wife. She knows how to do very little,
but knows how to do everything so well that she can tell me or you exactly
how to do it, and how easy it is.

When she saw this cutesy little paver form, she just had to have it. Make
that I just had to have it.

So, I come here to ask questions, much like I'd like to ask a couple of
basic questions before setting off for a few months in Antarctica. It's
just common sense.

I can see that I will in no way be using this thing to do two square feet at
a time, taking at least ten minutes per two square feet. That's 5,000
minutes, or 83 hours, and that doesn't include bathroom breaks, water
breaks, or just passing out.

Then there is buying and moving 500 80# bags, then hoisting each one into
the mixer. It says it takes one 80# bag per two square foot form. And at
about $3.75 per bag, that's $1,875. That little $18 form is getting
expensive.

So, after serious consideration, I have decided to take it back to Ace, and
trade it for some fishing gear. A guy can never have too much fishing gear.

I'm not sure what we will end up doing with the yard area. It is above a
leachfield, so cannot block it off too much.

I thank you all for your input. It has helped me to reach a reasonable (and
explainable) conclusion. When I present this to my wife, it will be much
easier, especially when I explain that it will take her help to do this
project, and the 83 hours, and how easy it is to break those expensive
fingernail jobs.

Steve

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 18 Sep 2011 08:46:35 -0400, "dadiOH"
wrote:

Steve B wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Steve

GOOD GRIEF, man, you will kill yourself!

We all have different pain thresholds but I wouldn't even consider
prepping/mixing/pouring that much for pavers.

This part we're in agreement on.

Even prepping and using store
bought pavers would give me pause. If I were you I'd check around and see
how much a contractor would charge.

We disagree on this- unless Steve has a deadline. To me the beauty
of pavers is that once the prep work is done you can go out and set
5-6 while you're waiting for the missus to fix her hair. When she
comes out, you take off your gloves and get in the car. Or you can
set a couple 100 when it is nice and cool one day. I have a 15'
octagon that I've been playing with most of the summer. I can't
ever work more than an hour & sometimes I can only do that once a
week.

I did 4-500 sq' 5-6 years ago at the same pace. It still looks as
good as the day I finished. [maybe better]

Jim

I have a large tile saw and a mathematical mind. I would thoroughly enjoy
making a showplace mosaic walkway in the front of my house out of pavers,
and as you say, an hour here, a day there, etc. Once you get the base down,
the rest flows pretty easy.

Steve

[RicodJour[_2_]]

On Sep 17, 10:55*pm, "Steve B" wrote:

Form is 1.75" high. *Need to do 800-1,000 sf.

If you put a price approaching nothing on your time, then your plan
starts to make sense. I invented re-inventing the wheel and perfected
the messy art of ****ing into the wind, but I'd still be given pause
for your forms project. Pick your battles.

I'm with Jim on this one. If you advertise around - Craigslist,
calling some paving contractors, etc. - and tell them you will remove
the pavers at no charge, you'll get them for almost free (gas, time).
You'll come out ahead on cost and time. The only issue is whether you
like the proffered pavers or not. As your existing plan will take you
a long time, I'd think spending a bit of time locating a suitable free
source wouldn't be a big issue.

R

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote


He should probably also look into stamped concrete, assuming that a
concrete truck can get close enough and drainage of the area isin't an
issue.

Issue, issue, issue. It's over a leachfield, so has to have some
breathability.

Steve

[dadiOH[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:
"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:52:53 -0700, "Steve B"
wrote:


"Home Guy" wrote

Again it comes down to how much of this you need or want to do.

800-1,000 sf.

Then personally I think you're nuts. [in a nice way- and I've been
there, too. But still--]

Jim, you would have to understand my wife. She knows how to do very
little, but knows how to do everything so well that she can tell me
or you exactly how to do it, and how easy it is.

When she saw this cutesy little paver form, she just had to have it. Make
that I just had to have it.

Ah, *NOW* I understand.

I long ago stopped asking my wife's opinion - or listening to her wants -
about construction things. I think it was when I was getting set to make a
bunch of passage doors for our house and she wanted me to make one "so I can
see how it looks". Yeah. Right.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

[Home Guy]

Steve B wrote:

Then there is buying and moving 500 80# bags, then hoisting each
one into the mixer. It says it takes one 80# bag per two square
foot form. And at about $3.75 per bag, that's $1,875.

Just to clarify, your form has a volume of .29 cubic feet - if it is (as
you say) 2 sq feet in area and 1.75 inches high. That much concrete
would weigh 42 lbs. It would take even less in your case, considering
voids built into the form to give internal separation between the
blocks.

An 80 lb bag of premix concrete would therefore easily do 2 of your
forms - not one.

You would therefore need 200 to 250 bags, not 500.

You should look into the cost of pigment because that's not going to be
cheap.

And this would be the kind of project where you buy a small electric
mixer - not rent one. Once you buy it, you use it at the pace you
want. Not under the gun to bring it back in a few hours or by 10 am the
next day.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"RicodJour" wrote


The only issue is whether you
like the proffered pavers or not. As your existing plan will take you
a long time, I'd think spending a bit of time locating a suitable free
source wouldn't be a big issue.

R

Free is my second favorite word.

Steve

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Home Guy" wrote in message ...
Steve B wrote:

Then there is buying and moving 500 80# bags, then hoisting each
one into the mixer. It says it takes one 80# bag per two square
foot form. And at about $3.75 per bag, that's $1,875.

Just to clarify, your form has a volume of .29 cubic feet - if it is (as
you say) 2 sq feet in area and 1.75 inches high. That much concrete
would weigh 42 lbs. It would take even less in your case, considering
voids built into the form to give internal separation between the
blocks.

An 80 lb bag of premix concrete would therefore easily do 2 of your
forms - not one.

You would therefore need 200 to 250 bags, not 500.

You should look into the cost of pigment because that's not going to be
cheap.

And this would be the kind of project where you buy a small electric
mixer - not rent one. Once you buy it, you use it at the pace you
want. Not under the gun to bring it back in a few hours or by 10 am the
next day.

I have a vintage mixer that works beautifully. Not an issue. And 250 @
3.75 ($937.50) certainly does sound better than twice that. It's the labor
that I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around. 80# sacks, 250 of them
......... and me having broken my back, a knee surgery, two shoulder
surgeries, and chronic neck pain.

Wait, wait. I know the answer to this .......................

Steve

[RicodJour[_2_]]

On Sep 18, 5:00*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
"Home Guy" wrote in ....
Steve B wrote:

Then there is buying and moving 500 80# bags, then hoisting each
one into the mixer. *It says it takes one 80# bag per two square
foot form. *And at about $3.75 per bag, that's $1,875.

Just to clarify, your form has a volume of .29 cubic feet - if it is (as
you say) 2 sq feet in area and 1.75 inches high. *That much concrete
would weigh 42 lbs. *It would take even less in your case, considering
voids built into the form to give internal separation between the
blocks.

An 80 lb bag of premix concrete would therefore easily do 2 of your
forms - not one.

You would therefore need 200 to 250 bags, not 500.

You should look into the cost of pigment because that's not going to be
cheap.

And this would be the kind of project where you buy a small electric
mixer - not rent one. *Once you buy it, you use it at the pace you
want. *Not under the gun to bring it back in a few hours or by 10 am the
next day.

I have a vintage mixer that works beautifully. *Not an issue. *And 250 @
3.75 ($937.50) certainly does sound better than twice that. *It's the labor
that I'm having trouble wrapping my brain around. *80# sacks, 250 of them
........ and me having broken my back, a knee surgery, two shoulder
surgeries, and chronic neck pain.

Wait, wait. *I know the answer to this .......................

Most of us knew you knew the answer and were sneaking up on it in your
own time.

I'm not sure of where the pavers are going and other constraints/
variables, but I'd be _sorely_ tempted to go with a poured slab and
stain it with some acid stains. You can get some pretty nice looking
stuff that way and it would be done with minimal fuss and muss.

You said ~1000SF, and with a 4" slab that's about a dozen yards of
concrete. Not sure what the prices are like where you are, but that
would probably be about the same cost as the bags of concrete mix
alone.

Pick your battles. Rule number one in picking your battles is saving
your labor for the skilled stuff that costs more, not the grunt work
that's low paid. Rule number two is to save your body so you can do
the skilled work.

R

[Jim Elbrecht]

"Steve B" wrote:


"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .

-snip-

Then personally I think you're nuts. [in a nice way- and I've been
there, too. But still--]

Jim, you would have to understand my wife.

We're ****-outa-luck then. I haven't understood *any* woman since KE
& I quit being buddies in 1st grade.

She knows how to do very little,
but knows how to do everything so well that she can tell me or you exactly
how to do it, and how easy it is.

When she saw this cutesy little paver form, she just had to have it. Make
that I just had to have it.

That part I understand. My wife keeps away from that sort of
thing-- but I get lots of weird cooking implements of varying degrees
of uselessness. They mean well.

I think for your purposes, as you've said, the pavers are a better
choice. But I'd do some more looking into putting them over a leach
field. They aren't as porous as you might think. Look at
permeable pavers & see if they'll work for you.


Jim

[RicodJour[_2_]]

On Sep 19, 8:20*am, Jim Elbrecht wrote:
"Steve B" wrote:

"Jim Elbrecht" wrote in message
.. .

-snip-



Then personally I think you're nuts. [in a nice way- and I've been
there, too. *But still--]

Jim, you would have to understand my wife. *

We're ****-outa-luck then. * I haven't understood *any* woman since KE
& I quit being buddies in 1st grade.

She knows how to do very little,
but knows how to do everything so well that she can tell me or you exactly
how to do it, and how easy it is.

When she saw this cutesy little paver form, she just had to have it. *Make
that I just had to have it.

That part I understand. * *My wife keeps away from that sort of
thing-- but I get lots of weird cooking implements of varying degrees
of uselessness. * * They mean well.

I think for your purposes, as you've said, the pavers are a better
choice. * But I'd do some more looking into putting them over a leach
field. * They aren't as porous as you might think. * * * Look at
permeable pavers & see if they'll work for you.

Damn. I hate reading reading a reply post and realizing I missed
something in the thread. A leaching field you say...? Okay, maybe a
monolithic concrete slab wouldn't be the best thing over a leaching
field.

I do like the permeable pavers, though. I've used Turfblock (brand
name, but it seems to be a generically ubiquitous term) with good
results. I used some earth-tone concrete stain to cover up the gray.

As Steve said he'd like to show off his talent by doing something
interesting, I'd think the "pre-formed almost-talent" paver forms
would be the death of that. Maybe a combination of pavers or stained
concrete and Turfblock would be the ticket.

R

[Home Guy]

RicodJour wrote:

Damn. I hate reading a reply post and realizing I missed something
in the thread.

If you used an actual news-reader client, instead of Google Grops, then
you'd experience a more complete and satisfying usenet experience.

A leaching field you say...?

We call them septic fields around here.

I do like the permeable pavers, though.

As Steve said he'd like to show off his talent by doing something
interesting

What we don't know - is this for a patio area?

Or to park vehicles?

If the latter, then he might want to look into this:

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/grasspave2.html

=========
Grasspave porous pavement is a structure which provides incredible load
bearing strength while protecting vegetation root systems from deadly
compaction. High void spaces within the entire cross-section enable
excellent root development, and storage capacity for rainfall from storm
events. For example, a 13 inch cross-section (one inch Grasspave2 with
sand and a 12 inch base course) can store 2.6 inches of water - 13
inches x approx. 20% void space). Stormwater is slowed in movement
through and across Grasspave2 surfaces, which deposits suspended
sediment and increases time to discharge. Suspended pollutants and
moderate amounts of engine oils are consumed by active soil bacteria,
which are aided by the system’s excellent oxygen exchange capacity.

http://www.invisiblestructures.com/i...p2cross290.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vv0PyOu6QXM
========

This seems appropriate for either a patio or driveway:

Gravel-Lok Natural Stone Porous Driveway

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkGJp...eature=related

Seems to use some sort of bonding agent flowed over compacted aggregate
material of your choice to create a solidified block or layer that is
completely permeable:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UP_j1GCYFfA

This is what it looks like when it's torn apart:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg2-dZtGM8U

Product brochu

http://www.lifetimepavers.com/gravel...ochure2011.pdf

One thing is clear: There are a whole lot of choices available today
when it comes to outdoor paving / parking / walking surfaces. To what
extent they can be installed by the typical high-performance home
handiman is an open question.

[Home Guy]

I wrote:

This seems appropriate for either a patio or driveway:

Gravel-Lok Natural Stone Porous Driveway

Seems to use some sort of bonding agent flowed over compacted
aggregate material of your choice to create a solidified block
or layer that is completely permeable

Found this on the web:

===============
CELL-TEK GEOSYNTHETICS, LLC

Technical Data: Gravel-Lok Hydrophobic Polyurethane System

Description: Gravel-Lok is a moderate viscosity, single component,
moisture curing liquid designed to stabilize aggregates for foot traffic
and light vehicular traffic. It is ADA compliant for wheelchair access.

Application: Pour or pump onto stones to be stabilized. Do not spray
(atomize). Allow 24 hours to cure. If rain is expected, the area should
be covered with a plastic tarp. Application is not suggested if the
temperature falls below 50°F or rises above 90°F. Coverage rates will
vary with soil conditions. Typical coverage is 15 – 20 square feet per
gallon.
================

Basically what we have here is a rigid hydrophobic polyurethane liquid
that cures when exposed to air (ie - water vapor). There are many
polyurethanes that do this (PL-Premium construction adhesive is one
example).

I would imaging that the average high-performance home handiman could
obtain a similar material from a construction supply shop that may not
be marketed exactly for the same purpose, such as this:

==============
DURAL MUD LOCK
Hydrophobic Polyurethane Soil Stabilizer
http://www.euclidchemical.com/produc...& tselect=288
==============

Or for the limey's around he

============
http://www.elichem.co.uk/p-14-aggreg...ing-resin.aspx

EL151SB/NC Aggregate Bonding Resin is a clear polyurethane resin
specifically formulated for use as an aggregate- bonding material for
driveways and paths. The resin is mixed with aggregate particles and
spread into place where it sets to a durable, flexible surface.
===========

What could be easier?

Buy a load of small stone. Have it delivered to your home (most places
that sell decorative or landscaping products will do this). Maybe a few
different types or colors. Several cubic yards of material. Small
stone, pea-gravel, etc.

Prepare the area where you want to form your hard-surface pad. Set some
dividers into it (straight, curved, etc) if you want to form patterns in
the finished surface. Spread the stone over the area, compact and
smooth it so it's flat.

Buy one (or more) 5-gallon pails of polyurethane resin, spread over the
stone using a large watering can (or devise your own pouring system) and
wait a day or two and it's ready to use.

I really don't think there's any need to go to elaborate lengths to
prepare the sub-surface if you're not going to be driving any vehicles
over this area.

[Higgs Boson[_2_]]

On Sep 19, 9:43*am, Home Guy wrote:
I wrote:
This seems appropriate for either a patio or driveway:

Gravel-Lok Natural Stone Porous Driveway
Seems to use some sort of bonding agent flowed over compacted
aggregate material of your choice to create a solidified block
or layer that is completely permeable

Found this on the web:

===============
CELL-TEK GEOSYNTHETICS, LLC

Technical Data: Gravel-Lok Hydrophobic Polyurethane System

Description: Gravel-Lok is a moderate viscosity, single component,
moisture curing liquid designed to stabilize aggregates for foot traffic
and light vehicular traffic. It is ADA compliant for wheelchair access.

Application: Pour or pump onto stones to be stabilized. Do not spray
(atomize). Allow 24 hours to cure. If rain is expected, the area should
be covered with a plastic tarp. Application is not suggested if the
temperature falls below 50°F or rises above 90°F. Coverage rates will
vary with soil conditions. Typical coverage is 15 – 20 square feet per
gallon.
================

Basically what we have here is a rigid hydrophobic polyurethane liquid
that cures when exposed to air (ie - water vapor). *There are many
polyurethanes that do this (PL-Premium construction adhesive is one
example).

I would imaging that the average high-performance home handiman could
obtain a similar material from a construction supply shop that may not
be marketed exactly for the same purpose, such as this:

==============
DURAL MUD LOCK
Hydrophobic Polyurethane Soil Stabilizerhttp://www.euclidchemical.com/product_detail.asp?id=570&pselect=235&c...
==============

Or for the limey's around he

============http://www.elichem.co.uk/p-14-aggregate-gravel-bonding-resin.aspx

EL151SB/NC Aggregate Bonding Resin is a clear polyurethane resin
specifically formulated for use as an aggregate- bonding material for
driveways and paths. *The resin is mixed with aggregate particles and
spread into place where it sets to a durable, flexible surface.
===========

What could be easier?

Buy a load of small stone. *Have it delivered to your home (most places
that sell decorative or landscaping products will do this). *Maybe a few
different types or colors. *Several cubic yards of material. *Small
stone, pea-gravel, etc.

Prepare the area where you want to form your hard-surface pad. *Set some
dividers into it (straight, curved, etc) if you want to form patterns in
the finished surface. *Spread the stone over the area, compact and
smooth it so it's flat.

Buy one (or more) 5-gallon pails of polyurethane resin, spread over the
stone using a large watering can (or devise your own pouring system) and
wait a day or two and it's ready to use.

I really don't think there's any need to go to elaborate lengths to
prepare the sub-surface if you're not going to be driving any vehicles
over this area.

Duh - is the final surface going to be a glossy, flat resin? Through
which one can see the pebbles? A little confused...

HB

[Home Guy]

Higgs Boson used improper usenet posting style by full-quoting:

Duh - is the final surface going to be a glossy, flat resin?
Through which one can see the pebbles? A little confused...

Follow those links.

Plenty of pictures and you-tube videos showing what the end result looks
like.

[RicodJour[_2_]]

On Sep 19, 11:48*am, Home Guy wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

Damn. *I hate reading a reply post and realizing I missed something
in the thread.

If you used an actual news-reader client, instead of Google Grops, then
you'd experience a more complete and satisfying usenet experience.

No piece of software will make up for someone being inattentive. I've
used various newsreaders over the years, but they're static, not
portable like Google Groups. I can post from my phone or an internet
cafe when I travel, and I have very few issues with it. Perhaps your
advice should remain in the field of home improvement?

A leaching field you say...?

We call them septic fields around here.

Ummm...okay.

R

[Home Guy]

RicodJour wrote:

If you used an actual news-reader client, instead of Google Grops,
then you'd experience a more complete and satisfying usenet
experience.

No piece of software will make up for someone being inattentive.

But the right software can make it easier to follow a thread, and
indicate which posts you've read and which ones you haven't.

I've used various newsreaders over the years, but they're static,
not portable like Google Groups.

Once you install an NNTP client on every device, then you have your
portability.

I can post from my phone or an internet cafe when I travel,

I don't have a cell phone. But if I did, I wouldn't be squinting at it,
getting carpal-tunnel trying to type something into it to post on
usenet. I type on a proper keyboard - or I don't type.

When I travel, the last thing I want to do is dink around with usenet.

[RicodJour[_2_]]

On Sep 19, 11:22*pm, Home Guy wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

If you used an actual news-reader client, instead of Google Grops,
then you'd experience a more complete and satisfying usenet
experience.

No piece of software will make up for someone being inattentive.

But the right software can make it easier to follow a thread, and
indicate which posts you've read and which ones you haven't.

I have the right software - for me. Let's make a deal. You take care
of your business and I won't tell you you're being a boob for offering
advice outside your area of expertise - which area of expertise, BTW,
does not include me nor my preferences.

I've used various newsreaders over the years, but they're static,
not portable like Google Groups.

Once you install an NNTP client on every device, then you have your
portability.

"Hi, Mr. Internet Cafe Employee I can barely communicate with, would
you let me install some software on your computer?
....well! There's no need to get nasty! I was just asking!"

I can post from my phone or an internet cafe when I travel,

I don't have a cell phone. *But if I did, I wouldn't be squinting at it,
getting carpal-tunnel trying to type something into it to post on
usenet. *I type on a proper keyboard - or I don't type.

Well, three cheers for you! So I guess you've never run across Swype
or Shapewriter, huh?

That's most curious - offering advice and an opinion on something you
have no clue about.

When I travel, the last thing I want to do is dink around with usenet.

You don't travel as much as I do.

R

[JIMMIE]

On Sep 17, 12:09*pm, "Steve B" wrote:
I bought one of those random repeat forms that end up with a paver walkway
of what appears to be random sized stones, but there is a repeat in it. *You
get your base prepared, lay the form on there, pour concrete in the holes,
pat it down, and immediately remove the form. *You have approx. 2 sf of
pavers. *You fill in between with sand, or let the grass grow in there.

Anyone ever use one of these? *It is surely going to take a lot of 80# sacks
to do this job. *Suggestions/caveats appreciated.

Steve

One of my friends did it as a base for his spa, probably 100 sq ft.
Over the next couple of years it covered about 400 sq ft. He is very
used to projects taking a long time.

Jimmie