[Erik[_5_]]

Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

[TSA Supervisor]

I didn't find it. What was the title in the subject line?

--
..
"Erik" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical
Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

[Bob Engelhardt]

TSA Supervisor wrote:
I didn't find it. What was the title in the subject line?


"National Electric Code" (in part). Easy to find by time & date: 12:18
today. 26 parts

Bob

[Bob Engelhardt]

Bob Engelhardt wrote:
TSA Supervisor wrote:
I didn't find it. What was the title in the subject line?


"National Electric Code" (in part). Easy to find by time & date: 12:18
today. 26 parts

Bob

Oops that's "National Electrical Code".

[pyotr filipivich]

"TSA Supervisor" on Sat, 23 Apr 2011
12:22:52 -0400 typed in rec.crafts.metalworking the following:
I didn't find it. What was the title in the subject line?

ASST NEW MTLS 22 APR 2011 A - National Electrical Code (U.S.A.)
[NFPA-70] 2011 Edition (NFPA, 2010) WW.pdf (01/26)
.
"Erik" wrote in message
...
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical
Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

--
pyotr filipivich
"Hey, remember when gas was $2.20 a gallon and the unemployment rate
was 4.4%? What happened with that?
Oh, right, the Democrats won the 2006 Congressional elections." Moe Lane

[RangersSuck]

On Apr 23, 1:03*am, Erik wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

[Stormin Mormon]

Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in
message ...
TSA Supervisor wrote:
I didn't find it. What was the title in the subject line?


"National Electric Code" (in part). Easy to find by time &
date: 12:18
today. 26 parts

Bob

[RangersSuck]

On Apr 23, 7:13*pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to *have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

[Ignoramus4979]

On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

[Jim Wilkins]

On Apr 23, 7:26*pm, Ignoramus4979
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

[dpb]

On 4/23/2011 6:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:26 pm,
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

The don't have legal authority first off...

Second, I'd expect from the rest of the general theology, He would also
respect personal property and fully understand intellectual property
rights as well...altho I think both are somewhat mundane topics compared
to the area of real concern expressed in the message...

--

[Jim Wilkins]

On Apr 23, 8:05*pm, dpb wrote:
On 4/23/2011 6:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
...
I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

The don't have legal authority first off...


Then we don't have to follow it.

[Steve Barker[_6_]]

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Ignoramus4979]

On 2011-04-23, Ignoramus4979 wrote:
On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

Furthermore, the Bible talks about sharing one loaf of bread with
5,000 people. I believe that it is a cryptic reference to free
software and free information sharing. I am pretty sure that Jesus
would disapprove of copyright.

[Ed Huntress]

"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message
...
On Apr 23, 7:26 pm, Ignoramus4979
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays those
people? The federal government?

I've always thought that Corvettes want to be free, too. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

[Ed Huntress]

"Ignoramus4979" wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

--
Ed Huntress

[metspitzer]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:44:27 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.

It is actually a pretty useful group for tech stuff. Lots of Win7
info
http://www.binsearch.info/browse.php...nical&server=0
http://www.nzbclub.com/search.aspx?st=1&gid=4821

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:27:08 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:44:27 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.

It is actually a pretty useful group for tech stuff. Lots of Win7
info
http://www.binsearch.info/browse.php...nical&server=0
http://www.nzbclub.com/search.aspx?st=1&gid=4821

What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.
What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.

--Vic

[Ed Huntress]

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 22:27:08 -0400, Metspitzer
wrote:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:44:27 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over
in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.

It is actually a pretty useful group for tech stuff. Lots of Win7
info
http://www.binsearch.info/browse.php...nical&server=0
http://www.nzbclub.com/search.aspx?st=1&gid=4821

What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?

What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

--
Ed Huntress

[RangersSuck]

On Apr 23, 7:26*pm, Ignoramus4979
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

Do you think Jesus would approve of the notion of someone stealing
someone else's work product and sharing it with others as if it were
his own? Seriously? Do you think that your employer would be able
continue to pay you if all of your work product was going to enter the
public domain?

It's not even a slightly fine line. It's a big fat line between
sharing and stealing. This is a copyrighted work. It's not yours (or
anyone else's except for the copyright owner) to give away. If you
don't like it, take it up with them. But don't try to justify this by
misrepresenting the law as an impediment to sharing information.

You are free to buy the book and share it with your friends. You are
free to read the book and tell us about the contents. You are free to
buy the book and resell it. You are free to borrow it from a library.
You are NOT free to make copies of the book and distribute them. To
anyone.

If you don't like it, elect officials who will change the law. Then
sit back and watch publishers go out of business.

[jk]

Ignoramus4979 wrote:

On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i
Seems to me he was the "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" guy
wasn't he?

Sure seems like this falls under that.


jk

[Ed Huntress]

"jk" wrote in message
...
Ignoramus4979 wrote:

On 2011-04-23, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i
Seems to me he was the "render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's" guy
wasn't he?

Sure seems like this falls under that.

Aside from the Biblical considerations g, the NEC (NFPA 70) is available
for free viewing on their Website. The organization is made up of
volunteers. Apparently some folks here think that the research, testing,
organization, and writing of the Code should come out of the volunteers'
pockets.

It's widely available in libraries, and any state or municipality that
adheres to the NEC can download the full text for free. As for the
responsibility of local government to fund it and to supply it to tradesmen
for free, tell them to take it up with their local legislators. Tell them
they want the taxpayers to pay for their work documents, and see how they
react to it.

The NEC is NOT a government code, nor is it produced by the government. A
state or local government may decide to require adherence to it. If they do,
then there are several ways to view it for free.

Nobody will stop anyone from sharing this information. What they will stop
them from doing is sitting on their butts and downloading a copy of it so
they don't have to contribute to the cost of producing it, all for the sake
of their own comfort and convenience. If they make even the slightest
effort, they can read it for free. Is that too much to ask for intellectual
material that requires considerable labor to produce?

(I'm not directing this to you, but to the people who are miffed that
information isn't "free.")

--
Ed Huntress

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
.. .


What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?


I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.
Laws are public knowledge, and codes should be too, since they are
enforced like law. Simple as that.
Already said I'd pay for costs.
I don't like paying profits to a company to see codes that can be used
by government workers to have me in court and fine me.
It's not a big deal to me, since I don't plan on doing any work
needing code inspection, and I can always find somebody to do it.
It's more about philosophy.
If a cop gave me ticket for breaking a law I never heard of, and told
me I had to pay a private for-profit company to get the book of laws,
I wouldn't like that at all.
Greg Fretwell was a city or county inspector.
I'd like to hear his views on this.

--Vic

[Steve Barker[_6_]]

On 4/23/2011 9:40 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:44:27 -0500, Steve Barker
wrote:

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.


Refresh your newsgroups. It is new. I see it

thanks for the suggestion. still not seeing it.

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[Ed Huntress]

"Vic Smith" wrote in message
...
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:45:46 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Vic Smith" wrote in message
. ..


What's the deal with building related codes being proprietary?
Never thought anything that could be "law" and enforced by government
should have to be purchased, except paying for the printing cost.

Why should the taxpayer subsidize YOUR business?


I don't have a business.
Thought codes were about public safety, not business.

Codes apply to the businesses that do the work.


What does "National" mean in "2011 National Electrical Code?"
I've got no problem buying auto shop manuals, but I don't have to buy
their cars, and they're not holding code violations over me.
These proprietary codes never smelled right to me.


So whose standards are you going to use? Make up your own as you go along?

As I said, codes are about public safety.
It's government workers enforcing codes, not businesses.
I pay their salaries.

No, you don't. The NEC is researched, tested, organized and written by
volunteers, who hire professionals to do the professional parts of it.

Laws are public knowledge, and codes should be too, since they are
enforced like law. Simple as that.

If the people who wrote the law are going to make the NEC free to you, it
will cost your state or local taxpayers money. The legislators don't write
the NEC.

Already said I'd pay for costs.

No, you said you'd pay for printing, or something like that. Printing is
just the tip of the iceberg.

I don't like paying profits to a company to see codes that can be used
by government workers to have me in court and fine me.
It's not a big deal to me, since I don't plan on doing any work
needing code inspection, and I can always find somebody to do it.
It's more about philosophy.
If a cop gave me ticket for breaking a law I never heard of, and told
me I had to pay a private for-profit company to get the book of laws,
I wouldn't like that at all.
Greg Fretwell was a city or county inspector.
I'd like to hear his views on this.

Vic, the Code is not produced by government. It's produced by the National
Fire Protection Association. Do you want to pay them with taxpayer's money?

--
Ed Huntress

[Higgs Boson[_2_]]

On Apr 23, 5:05*pm, dpb wrote:
On 4/23/2011 6:38 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:









On Apr 23, 7:26 pm,
wrote:
On 2011-04-23, *wrote:

On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
*wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing information.

i

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

The don't have legal authority first off...

Second, I'd expect from the rest of the general theology, He would also
respect personal property and fully understand intellectual property
rights as well...altho I think both are somewhat mundane topics compared
to the area of real concern expressed in the message...

--

Say what? Smashing up the money-changers' booths at the Temple! NO
respect for private property!!!

(Test: Who knows why the so-called money changers were actually ng at
the plaza before the actual entrance to the Temple?)

HB

[Michael A. Terrell]

Steve Barker wrote:

On 4/23/2011 6:09 PM, rangerssuck wrote:
On Apr 23, 1:03 am, wrote:
Hi all,

Someone posted a pdf copy of the 2011 National Electrical Code over in:

news:alt.binaries.e-book.technical

Erik

And everyone ought to rush right over there to steal a copy, right?

seeing as how it is not a giganews carried group, probably not many
people flocking over there.


Really? I see over 4 million new headers in that group.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a Band-Aid™ on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

[Lewis Hartswick]

Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

[Ed Huntress]

"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message
m...
Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

The difference is that having the ability to download it for free eliminates
all incentive to buy it. That's the straw that's breaking the back of many
niches in publishing. Electrical tradesmen at some level can easily afford
to buy it, and their incentive to do so keeps the business of producing it
in balance, while still allowing people to read it for free if they make a
little effort.

To me, it's the difference between borrowing something and stealing it.

--
Ed Huntress

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Apr 24, 11:23*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message

m...





Ed Huntress wrote:
lid *wrote in message
om...
On 2011-04-23, *wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
*wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
* *...lew...

The difference is that having the ability to download it for free eliminates
all incentive to buy it. That's the straw that's breaking the back of many
niches in publishing. Electrical tradesmen at some level can easily afford
to buy it, and their incentive to do so keeps the business of producing it
in balance, while still allowing people to read it for free if they make a
little effort.

To me, it's the difference between borrowing something and stealing it.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, you can read it at home very much like you can read it at
the
library. NFPA makes it available online for free. You can read it
online via their reader, but you can't download it, for obvious
reasons.

Also, I'd say the folks who try to make the case that because it's
used
by most municipalities as part of their code, that it should therefore
be available for free or very low cost. That argument doesn't fly
very well because I can show you plenty of municpalities that charge
fees similar to what NFPA charges for a copy of their zoning laws,
land use rules, EPA rules, etc.

[Bud--]

On 4/23/2011 10:08 PM, wrote:
On Sat, 23 Apr 2011 21:34:31 -0400, "Ed Huntress"
wrote:


"Jim wrote in message

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays those
people? The federal government?


It should be noted that the NEC is the only major building code in
most states that is adopted as the NFPA document, not written into law
and published by the government.
Veeck v NFPA found that these codes had to be made public so NFPA
responded with a very cumbersome interface on their web site. It is
virtually unusable but it does meet the legal description of "public".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Electrical_Code
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone." This refers to the same legal case
as g does above.

The wikipedia article has a link to a site with state electrical codes
that are downloadable. Someone who downloaded one said it was the NEC
with a few pages at the start relevant to that state.

My opinions:
- making available an electronic copy of the NFPA published NEC is not
legal (I think the layout may be protected). That would include an NFPA
created pdf, if there are any.
- typing that text from the published one and distributing it is legal.
(Could be done by scanning removing formatting.)
- creating a downloadable state electrical code, which includes the NEC
is legal.


When I looked a while ago, the state code source linked by wikipedia had
other state codes(not just electrical).

--
bud--

[Ed Huntress]

wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 11:23 am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:
"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message

m...





Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
om...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

The difference is that having the ability to download it for free
eliminates
all incentive to buy it. That's the straw that's breaking the back of many
niches in publishing. Electrical tradesmen at some level can easily afford
to buy it, and their incentive to do so keeps the business of producing it
in balance, while still allowing people to read it for free if they make a
little effort.

To me, it's the difference between borrowing something and stealing it.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, you can read it at home very much like you can read it at
the
library. NFPA makes it available online for free. You can read it
online via their reader, but you can't download it, for obvious
reasons.

Yes, I pointed that out in an earlier message. Some people think they should
be able to download it.

Also, I'd say the folks who try to make the case that because it's
used
by most municipalities as part of their code, that it should therefore
be available for free or very low cost. That argument doesn't fly
very well because I can show you plenty of municpalities that charge
fees similar to what NFPA charges for a copy of their zoning laws,
land use rules, EPA rules, etc.

It's the "user should pay" idea that took hold among conservatives when they
started cutting support for free services. We've always had some of that.
Either the user (the electrical tradesman) pays for what he has to use in
his business, or the taxpayer pays. Someone has to pay, in any case.

--
Ed Huntress

[aemeijers]

On 4/24/2011 10:56 AM, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

Because the library paid for their copy? (Presumably with your tax money.)

Not a fan of industry associations essentially writing laws and
administrative regulations, and lazy legislatures giving them the force
of law by including them by reference in the laws they do pass. (ie, bar
association, AMA, et al) But that is how the world we live in works. And
these private trade groups do still have a intellectual property
interest in the compiled product. Now if the legislatures would instead
make the privately written rules part and parcel of the actual law,
rather than by reference, anybody could make and sell copies. (of
course, the trade associations would respond by making trivial annual
changes, so all the 'free' copies would be instantly out of date.)

--
aem sends...

[Ed Huntress]

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
On 4/24/2011 10:56 AM, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

Because the library paid for their copy? (Presumably with your tax money.)

Not a fan of industry associations essentially writing laws and
administrative regulations, and lazy legislatures giving them the force of
law by including them by reference in the laws they do pass. (ie, bar
association, AMA, et al) But that is how the world we live in works. And
these private trade groups do still have a intellectual property interest
in the compiled product. Now if the legislatures would instead make the
privately written rules part and parcel of the actual law, rather than by
reference, anybody could make and sell copies. (of course, the trade
associations would respond by making trivial annual changes, so all the
'free' copies would be instantly out of date.)

I'm in general agreement with your post, but if the legislation allowed
anyone to make copies, the trade associations would respond by not issuing
standards on their own doing the research and organization, not to mention
the writing and publishing, because it would cost them money they couldn't
recover by selling the things.

And then the government would have to step in with a new bureaucracy to
handle the job.

--
Ed Huntress

[Bob Engelhardt]

the ethics of downloading the code.

No harm, no foul. I would never buy a hard copy, 'cause I just don't
need one. Nor will I ever likely need one. My downloading the PDF does
not cause the loss of a sale to the NFPA & hence does them no harm.

Having it available for online reading is (almost) exactly equivalent to
downloading it. The only difference being the ability to print the
downloaded version. But maybe you can print it online, too. If the
NFPA provides it online for reading, how could they care if it's
available for downloading?

Bob

[Bob Engelhardt]

Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays those
people? The federal government?
....

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any
jurisdiction as law, it is still the private property of the standards
organization ... Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it
loses copyright protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

[ATP]

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
On 4/24/2011 10:56 AM, Lewis Hartswick wrote:
Ed Huntress wrote:
lid wrote in message
...
On 2011-04-23, wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
...lew...

Because the library paid for their copy? (Presumably with your tax money.)

Not a fan of industry associations essentially writing laws and
administrative regulations, and lazy legislatures giving them the force of
law by including them by reference in the laws they do pass. (ie, bar
association, AMA, et al) But that is how the world we live in works. And
these private trade groups do still have a intellectual property interest
in the compiled product. Now if the legislatures would instead make the
privately written rules part and parcel of the actual law, rather than by
reference, anybody could make and sell copies. (of course, the trade
associations would respond by making trivial annual changes, so all the
'free' copies would be instantly out of date.)

--
aem sends...

I wouldn't want the government writing the electrical code. I think the
process as it stands is a pretty good one. It's not like the mine operators
getting together to make the rules, the panels include representation from a
heterogeneous group, and I doubt any of them want to encourage unsafe
electrical practices.

[Ed Huntress]

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
the ethics of downloading the code.

No harm, no foul. I would never buy a hard copy, 'cause I just don't need
one. Nor will I ever likely need one. My downloading the PDF does not
cause the loss of a sale to the NFPA & hence does them no harm.

Having it available for online reading is (almost) exactly equivalent to
downloading it. The only difference being the ability to print the
downloaded version. But maybe you can print it online, too. If the NFPA
provides it online for reading, how could they care if it's available for
downloading?

They don't let you print if. If you need a printed copy, buy it.

--
Ed Huntress

[Ed Huntress]

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message
...
Ed Huntress wrote:
"Jim Wilkins" wrote in message

I wonder what He would think of copyrighting the rules we have to
follow and charging to see them. If they have legal authority they
should be public domain.

Great. Now, who puts them together and writes them down? And who pays
those people? The federal government?
...

Here's an interesting quote from the Wikipedia article on the NEC:
"In the United States, statutory law cannot be copyrighted and is freely
accessible and copyable by anyone.[1] When a standards organization
develops a new coding model and it is not yet accepted by any jurisdiction
as law, it is still the private property of the standards organization
... Once the coding model has been accepted as law, it loses copyright
protection and may be freely obtained at no cost."

Bob

Then the government has to pay -- with tax money -- to produce it. And the
standards organization will not pay for the whole project out of its own
pocket, unless it's very wealthy.

Somebody has to pay for it, Bob. Who do you think that should be, the users
or the taxpayers?

--
Ed Huntress

[RangersSuck]

On Apr 24, 11:39*am, "
wrote:
On Apr 24, 11:23*am, "Ed Huntress" wrote:





"Lewis Hartswick" wrote in message

om...

Ed Huntress wrote:
lid *wrote in message
om...
On 2011-04-23, *wrote:
On Apr 23, 7:13?pm, "Stormin Mormon"
*wrote:
Got me puzzled, also. I checked three groups with similar
names, and none of them seemed to ?have that. Real shame,
it's one of the few downloads I'd like to get.

Mr. Young - What does Jesus say about stealing copyrighted material?
Is that the Mormon way?

Copyright did not exist when Jesus was out there proselytizing.

I would be very surprised if Jesus, somehow, would approve of the
notion that a person may not be allowed share a copy of anything with
his friend, that somehow a law may prevent people from freely sharing
information.

i

That's why we have libraries, and why you have legs.

I don't see the difference between reading it at the library
and reading it at home.
* *...lew...

The difference is that having the ability to download it for free eliminates
all incentive to buy it. That's the straw that's breaking the back of many
niches in publishing. Electrical tradesmen at some level can easily afford
to buy it, and their incentive to do so keeps the business of producing it
in balance, while still allowing people to read it for free if they make a
little effort.

To me, it's the difference between borrowing something and stealing it.

--
Ed Huntress- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Actually, you can read it at home very much like you can read it at
the
library. *NFPA makes it available online for free. *You can read it
online via their reader, but you can't download it, for obvious
reasons.

The problem is that for some people here, the reasons are NOT obvious.
But you can bet that if someone was ripping off their work product,
they'd be all up in arms.

Also, I'd say the folks who try to make the case that because it's
used
by most municipalities as part of their code, that it should therefore
be available for free or very low cost. * That argument doesn't fly
very well because I can show you plenty of municpalities that charge
fees similar to what NFPA charges for a copy of their zoning laws,
land use rules, EPA rules, etc.

I know that my municipality has well stated (if somewhat excessive)
fees for copies of any documents.