I'm trying to replace a ceiling fan/light fixture with just a light
fixture. There are separate wall switches for the light and fan (both
are also three-way). I didn't notice how the old fixture was wired
when I took it down. The box has three black wires twisted together,
a red wire, a single white wire, two white wires twisted together, and
a bare ground wire. With my voltmeter, I couldn't find any
combination of the wires that went from 0 to 120 volts when switched.

Rounding the voltages off, I got:
Black-red - 0 or 15V, depending on the position of one switch
black-white1 - 0 or 30 depending on the position of the other switch
black-white2 - 120V always
red-white1 - 0, 15, or 30V, depending on the position of the two
switches
red-white2 - 105 or 120V depending on the position of one switch
white1-white2 - 90 or 120V depending on the position of the other
switch

The new light fixture has black, red, and a bare ground. How should
this be wired?
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"Jan Philips" wrote in message
...
I'm trying to replace a ceiling fan/light fixture with just a light
fixture. There are separate wall switches for the light and fan (both
are also three-way). I didn't notice how the old fixture was wired
when I took it down. The box has three black wires twisted together,
a red wire, a single white wire, two white wires twisted together, and
a bare ground wire. With my voltmeter, I couldn't find any
combination of the wires that went from 0 to 120 volts when switched.

Rounding the voltages off, I got:
Black-red - 0 or 15V, depending on the position of one switch
black-white1 - 0 or 30 depending on the position of the other switch
black-white2 - 120V always
red-white1 - 0, 15, or 30V, depending on the position of the two
switches
red-white2 - 105 or 120V depending on the position of one switch
white1-white2 - 90 or 120V depending on the position of the other
switch

The new light fixture has black, red, and a bare ground. How should
this be wired?
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You're only going to use 1 set of switches now, so choose the red/2white.
The red being hot and the two white being neutral. Insulate all the other
connections and stick them into the box. On the fixture you need to
determine which wire should be the hot. Using a continuity tester, see which
of the fixture wires goes to the center tongue of the socket. This should be
hot. The other neutral, and I'll assume that the ground is obvious

On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:47:47 -0500, "RBM" wrote:

You're only going to use 1 set of switches now, so choose the red/2white.

But I get about 105V across those two, even when it is switched off.
Shouldn't it be zero?

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On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:47:47 -0500, "RBM" wrote:
You're only going to use 1 set of switches now, so choose the red/2white.
The red being hot and the two white being neutral.

I did a test, and that works. Why doesn't the bulb light when there
is 105V across those two when the switch is off?

On the fixture you need to
determine which wire should be the hot. Using a continuity tester, see which
of the fixture wires goes to the center tongue of the socket.

The black one, as expected.
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On Dec 24, 4:00*pm, Jan Philips
wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:47:47 -0500, "RBM" wrote:
You're only going to use 1 set of switches now, so choose the red/2white..
The red being hot and the two white being neutral.

I did a test, and that works. *Why doesn't the bulb light when there
is 105V across those two when the switch is off?

On the fixture you need to
determine which wire should be the hot. Using a continuity tester, see which
of the fixture wires goes to the center tongue of the socket.

The black one, as expected.
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RBM's choice is correct, I reading & typing as you posted.

My guess it that you're using a digital meter & picking up a 'phantom'
voltage ....... the bulb not lighting (an inadvertent bulb test)
proves that.

cheers
Bob

On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:06:08 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

RBM's choice is correct, I reading & typing as you posted.

My guess it that you're using a digital meter & picking up a 'phantom'
voltage ....... the bulb not lighting (an inadvertent bulb test)
proves that.

I did a test with bulbs first, and it works. Now I have it installed,
working.

Yes, I am using a digital meter. I'm used to getting fluctuating
things in the millivolts (for instance those I said were zero), but
these were steady readings of around 105V. What causes the phantom
voltage?
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On Dec 24, 4:28*pm, Jan Philips
wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 16:06:08 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

RBM's choice is correct, I reading & typing as you posted.

My guess it that you're using a digital meter & picking up a 'phantom'
voltage ....... *the bulb not lighting (an inadvertent bulb test)
proves that.

I did a test with bulbs first, and it works. *Now I have it installed,
working. *

Yes, I am using a digital meter. *I'm used to getting fluctuating
things in the millivolts (for instance those I said were zero), but
these were steady readings of around 105V. *What causes the phantom
voltage?
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stray_voltage

The entire article is bit much for an intro,
scroll down to:

"Origins of stray voltages"
"Coupled and induced voltages"

for the quick answer.

Additional searching on stray & phantom voltages tell you how to deal
with it.
Give it a try in the old posts for AHR)

The scary thing is, sometimes what appears to be a stray voltage
could be a "real" voltage.

Be careful & treat all wires showing any voltage as "hot" until
verified as "stray / phantom".


btw even an analog meter (one with a needle like a SImpson 230 or 240)
can fool you,
you can get enough current to move the meter needle but not have
enough current to light a bulb.

This can be caused by a marginal connection somewhere in the
circuit.
YEARS ago I was fooled for a while by a corroded wire nut connection.
My Simpson 230 read 120v beyond the switch but the outside lights
wouldn't light.
I traced the problem to a corroded wire connection inside a wire nut.


cheers
Bob

On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:42:59 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

btw even an analog meter (one with a needle like a SImpson 230 or 240)
can fool you,

Thanks. My wife says that there are testers you clip on and it just
indicates "hot" or not. Are those prone to incorrectly indicate "hot"
in those cases?
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Jan Philips wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:42:59 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

btw even an analog meter (one with a needle like a SImpson 230 or 240)
can fool you,

Thanks. My wife says that there are testers you clip on and it just
indicates "hot" or not. Are those prone to incorrectly indicate "hot"
in those cases?

There is something called a Wiggy or solenoid meter also. I don't
think they will react to false voltage. The solenoid is supposed to put
a load on the circuit to eliminate the false readings. I've can't speak
from personal experience though.

On Dec 24, 9:27*pm, Dean Hoffman wrote:
Jan Philips wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:42:59 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

btw even an analog meter (one with a needle like a SImpson 230 or 240)
can fool you,

Thanks. *My wife says that there are testers you clip on and it just
indicates "hot" or not. *Are those prone to incorrectly indicate "hot"
in those cases?

* *There is something called a Wiggy or solenoid meter also. *I don't
think they will react to false voltage. *The solenoid is supposed to put
a load on the circuit to eliminate the false readings. *I've can't speak
from personal experience though.


Correct...

"Wiggies"... The real line voltage tester that actual electricians
use...

Like a Knopp K-60 which in addition to lighting up and vibrating (when
testing AC circuits) when voltage is present will even indicate what
the
voltage is on a rough scale... Just watch where the little bar goes
to,
you will be able to tell the difference between 120v, 240v, 277v, 480v
and 600v circuits...

Unless you are attempting to diagnose some sort of under/over voltage
issue leave the digital multi-meters in the tool box and use the same
tool that a professional electrician would use... You should always
test
your voltage tester on a known live outlet each day you use it before
trusting your life to it, once you know it activates in the presence
of live
voltage when the tester does not light up and vibrate then you know
the
circuit as it is currently configured is off...

Once you alter any connections or change the state of a switch you
should retest...

The cute pen type non-contact voltage detectors are nice for quickly
determining if you have shut off the correct circuit, however you
should
always confirm such a testers results with a contact type voltage
tester
before assuming that you have actually powered off a circuit before
working on it...

~~ Evan

On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 20:27:14 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

Jan Philips wrote:
On Fri, 24 Dec 2010 17:42:59 -0800 (PST), DD_BobK
wrote:

btw even an analog meter (one with a needle like a SImpson 230 or 240)
can fool you,

Thanks. My wife says that there are testers you clip on and it just
indicates "hot" or not. Are those prone to incorrectly indicate "hot"
in those cases?

There is something called a Wiggy or solenoid meter also. I don't
think they will react to false voltage. The solenoid is supposed to put
a load on the circuit to eliminate the false readings. I've can't speak
from personal experience though.
"wiigies" don't lie.
Not terribly accurate, but they tell you if it's 120, 250, 380, or 550
pretty accurately.

On Sat, 25 Dec 2010 08:59:20 -0800 (PST), Evan
wrote:

* *There is something called a Wiggy or solenoid meter also. *I don't
think they will react to false voltage. *The solenoid is supposed to put
a load on the circuit to eliminate the false readings. *I've can't speak
from personal experience though.


Correct...

"Wiggies"... The real line voltage tester that actual electricians
use...

Thanks, I looked up solenoid voltmeter. Sometimes old technology has
its advantages.
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