[Boothbay]

Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

[RBM[_3_]]

"Boothbay" wrote in message
...
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

No you can't. You need a neutral for the outlet to work. If there is another
two wires spliced together in that box, those would be your neutral, but if
you only have two wires in the box, you only have a switch leg, and not a
neutral

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On Nov 4, 9:28*am, Boothbay wrote:
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

When you say two wires do you mean two wire cables, each with a black,
white, and bare wire? Or do you mean that one cable comes in and it
only has a black and white wire in it. If the first then you may be
able to add an outlet, if the second then no, you can't.

[dpb]

wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

....
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ...


They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.

For what purpose, pray tell???? Wire vendors going broke?

--

[Boothbay]

On Nov 4, 9:34*am, jamesgangnc wrote:
On Nov 4, 9:28*am, Boothbay wrote:

Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

When you say two wires do you mean two wire cables, each with a black,
white, and bare wire? *Or do you mean that one cable comes in and it
only has a black and white wire in it. *If the first then you may be
able to add an outlet, if the second then no, you can't.

2 seperate wires or at leas they look seperate as barely i can
see...one is black and the other is white. Its an old connection so i
do not see a bare wire for ground. How about a jumper? would that work?

[N8N]

On Nov 4, 3:55*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

...
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ...

They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.

For what purpose, pray tell???? *Wire vendors going broke?

To deal with the number of timers and such that are now using the
ground for the return path for the electronics. There is currently a
loophole in the listing standard that allows a half a MA of "leakage
current" to the ground and manufacturers are exploiting that for the
electronics.
It also mitigates the problem for people like the OP and his question.

I have even seen people cheat and use the ground for a neutral, great
way to kill someone in another room.

Does anyone make 4-wire Romex? I can see that being a necessity for
some work if a neutral will now be required (e.g. retro'ing an older
house with switch legs for installation of a ceiling fan, for one
example... just did that myself a while back, but used 14/3, still no
neutral in wall box) or does that mean that you'd now have to use
Greenfield and THHN?

nate

[RBM[_3_]]

"N8N" wrote in message
...
On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

...
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ...

They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.

For what purpose, pray tell???? Wire vendors going broke?

To deal with the number of timers and such that are now using the
ground for the return path for the electronics. There is currently a
loophole in the listing standard that allows a half a MA of "leakage
current" to the ground and manufacturers are exploiting that for the
electronics.
It also mitigates the problem for people like the OP and his question.

I have even seen people cheat and use the ground for a neutral, great
way to kill someone in another room.

Does anyone make 4-wire Romex? I can see that being a necessity for
some work if a neutral will now be required (e.g. retro'ing an older
house with switch legs for installation of a ceiling fan, for one
example... just did that myself a while back, but used 14/3, still no
neutral in wall box) or does that mean that you'd now have to use
Greenfield and THHN?

nate

They do make 4 wire Romex

[Edward Reid]

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:34:50 -0700 (PDT), Boothbay
wrote:
2 seperate wires or at leas they look seperate as barely i can
see...one is black and the other is white.

Both connected to the switch? Or do you mean two black wires connected
to the switch and a white wire transiting the box without being
connected? You need to describe what you see much more clearly.

Its an old connection so i
do not see a bare wire for ground. How about a jumper? would that work?

As others have said, the way you describe the problem indicates that
you need to hire an electrician rather than trying to do it yourself.
Connecting wires incorrectly is DANGEROUS. Not just a matter of
"doesn't work, start over". Matter of "kills someone or burns down the
house".

Edward

[dpb]

RBM wrote:
....

If he only has two wires, he has no neutral
....

Well, DOH!

Guess it depends on what his follow-up posting really means...I took it
that there was a second, but re-reading I it's possible he's simply
referring to the switch leg loop of the return. If that's so, then
indeed there's nothing to be done.

--

[hr(bob) [email protected]]

On Nov 4, 6:32*pm, Edward Reid
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 11:34:50 -0700 (PDT), Boothbay
wrote:

2 seperate wires or at leas they look seperate as barely i can
see...one is black and the other is white.

Both connected to the switch? Or do you mean two black wires connected
to the switch and a white wire transiting the box without being
connected? You need to describe what you see much more clearly.

Its an old connection so i
do not see a bare wire for ground. How about a jumper? would that work?

As others have said, the way you describe the problem indicates that
you need to hire an electrician rather than trying to do it yourself.
Connecting wires incorrectly is DANGEROUS. Not just a matter of
"doesn't work, start over". Matter of "kills someone or burns down the
house".

I could tell you some stories about rewiring I have seen that ws done by licensed electricians, it was unbelieveably dangerous. I don't know if they did it out of ignorance or just wanted to do a fast and dirty job. The results were the same in either case. Fortunately someone spotted the mistakes when they were checking out some plumbing changes and asked me to verify that what had been done was not up to snuff.

[Edward Reid]

On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 18:29:10 -0700 (PDT), "hr(bob) "
wrote:
I could tell you some stories about rewiring I have seen that ws done by licensed electricians

There are incompetents in every trade. You still have a far better
chance of getting competent work from a licensed electrician than from
a homeowner who doesn't know what wires should be connected to a
switch.

Edward

[jamesgangnc[_3_]]

On Nov 4, 2:34*pm, Boothbay wrote:
On Nov 4, 9:34*am, jamesgangnc wrote:

On Nov 4, 9:28*am, Boothbay wrote:

Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

When you say two wires do you mean two wire cables, each with a black,
white, and bare wire? *Or do you mean that one cable comes in and it
only has a black and white wire in it. *If the first then you may be
able to add an outlet, if the second then no, you can't.

2 seperate wires or at leas they look seperate as barely i can
see...one is black and the other is white. Its an old connection so i
do not see a bare wire for ground. How about a jumper? would that work?

Then, no you can not add an outlet.

To add an outlet you would have to have two white and two black in the
box. The whites would be connected together and the blacks would both
go to the switch.

[Steve Barker[_6_]]

On 11/4/2010 12:44 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?

No you can't. You need a neutral for the outlet to work. If there is another
two wires spliced together in that box, those would be your neutral, but if
you only have two wires in the box, you only have a switch leg, and not a
neutral


They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.

that's ridiculous, it's much less crowded to bring the power to the
light and then drop a switch leg. What could POSSIBLY be their
reasoning behind this??

--
Steve Barker
remove the "not" from my address to email

[RogerT]

Steve Barker wrote:
On 11/4/2010 12:44 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of
an outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there
now?

No you can't. You need a neutral for the outlet to work. If there
is another two wires spliced together in that box, those would be
your neutral, but if you only have two wires in the box, you only
have a switch leg, and not a neutral


They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need
to have a neutral brought to the box.

that's ridiculous, it's much less crowded to bring the power to the
light and then drop a switch leg. What could POSSIBLY be their
reasoning behind this??

I think maybe so devices like motion-sensor/occupancy-sensor switches will
work even if the light fixutre uses compact fluorescent bulbs instead of
incandescent bulbs.

[RogerT]

wrote:
On Sat, 6 Nov 2010 15:47:24 -0400, "RogerT"
wrote:

Steve Barker wrote:
On 11/4/2010 12:44 PM, wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, wrote:


wrote in message
...
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top
of an outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are
there now?

No you can't. You need a neutral for the outlet to work. If there
is another two wires spliced together in that box, those would be
your neutral, but if you only have two wires in the box, you only
have a switch leg, and not a neutral


They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need
to have a neutral brought to the box.

that's ridiculous, it's much less crowded to bring the power to the
light and then drop a switch leg. What could POSSIBLY be their
reasoning behind this??

I think maybe so devices like motion-sensor/occupancy-sensor
switches will work even if the light fixutre uses compact
fluorescent bulbs instead of incandescent bulbs.


Exactly.
The informational note in the proposal says
"The provision for a (future) grounded conductor is to
provide power to electronic lighting control devices."

Is there someplace where this proposed new code is posted online? I am
curious as to what it all says, and whether it would apply to single pole
switches or to all switches -- including 3-way switches, for example.

[N8N]

On Nov 8, 4:19*pm, bud-- wrote:
N8N wrote:
On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
...
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ....
They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.
For what purpose, pray tell???? *Wire vendors going broke?
To deal with the number of timers and such that are now using the
ground for the return path for the electronics. There is currently a
loophole in the listing standard that allows a half a MA of "leakage
current" to the ground and manufacturers are exploiting that for the
electronics.
It also mitigates the problem for people like the OP and his question.

I have even seen people cheat and use the ground for a neutral, great
way to kill someone in another room.

Does anyone make 4-wire Romex? *I can see that being a necessity for
some work if a neutral will now be required (e.g. retro'ing an older
house with switch legs for installation of a ceiling fan, for one
example... just did that myself a while back, but used 14/3, still no
neutral in wall box) or does that mean that you'd now have to use
Greenfield and THHN?

nate

As came up in a thread recently, you could use 2 2-wire romexes.


Wouldn't that violate the rule about the current in a cable summing to
zero?

nate

[Bud--]

N8N wrote:
On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
...
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ...
They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.
For what purpose, pray tell???? Wire vendors going broke?
To deal with the number of timers and such that are now using the
ground for the return path for the electronics. There is currently a
loophole in the listing standard that allows a half a MA of "leakage
current" to the ground and manufacturers are exploiting that for the
electronics.
It also mitigates the problem for people like the OP and his question.

I have even seen people cheat and use the ground for a neutral, great
way to kill someone in another room.

Does anyone make 4-wire Romex? I can see that being a necessity for
some work if a neutral will now be required (e.g. retro'ing an older
house with switch legs for installation of a ceiling fan, for one
example... just did that myself a while back, but used 14/3, still no
neutral in wall box) or does that mean that you'd now have to use
Greenfield and THHN?

nate

As came up in a thread recently, you could use 2 2-wire romexes.

--
bud--

[Bud--]

RBM wrote:
wrote in message
...
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:

"Boothbay" wrote in message
...
Ny combo switch, i am referring to one that has a switch on top of an
outlet or vica versa, with the same wires ( 2 ) that are there now?
No you can't. You need a neutral for the outlet to work. If there is
another
two wires spliced together in that box, those would be your neutral, but
if
you only have two wires in the box, you only have a switch leg, and not a
neutral

They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.

I can see it for single pole switches, but it wouldn't make sense for 3ways
where you don't have a constant hot leg.



An interesting point. One end does.

If the purpose is for "electronic lighting control devices" a 3-way
"device" should be able to tap power from a combination of the travelers.

Or, I believe, you could rewire the 3-way to a California 3-way and have
power at both ends.

--
bud--

[Bud--]

N8N wrote:
On Nov 8, 4:19 pm, bud-- wrote:
N8N wrote:
On Nov 4, 3:55 pm, wrote:
On Thu, 04 Nov 2010 12:51:31 -0500, dpb wrote:
wrote:
On Thu, 4 Nov 2010 09:32:02 -0400, "RBM" wrote:
...
[if] only have two wires ... have a switch leg, and not a neutral ...
They are going to fix that in the 2011 code. All switches will need to
have a neutral brought to the box.
For what purpose, pray tell???? Wire vendors going broke?
To deal with the number of timers and such that are now using the
ground for the return path for the electronics. There is currently a
loophole in the listing standard that allows a half a MA of "leakage
current" to the ground and manufacturers are exploiting that for the
electronics.
It also mitigates the problem for people like the OP and his question.
I have even seen people cheat and use the ground for a neutral, great
way to kill someone in another room.
Does anyone make 4-wire Romex? I can see that being a necessity for
some work if a neutral will now be required (e.g. retro'ing an older
house with switch legs for installation of a ceiling fan, for one
example... just did that myself a while back, but used 14/3, still no
neutral in wall box) or does that mean that you'd now have to use
Greenfield and THHN?
nate
As came up in a thread recently, you could use 2 2-wire romexes.


Wouldn't that violate the rule about the current in a cable summing to
zero?

nate

A reason for the 'current in a set of wires to sum to zero' is to avoid
magnetic effects when the wires are in a metal raceway, or when the
wires enter a metal box. If a circuit is split between 2 romexes, both
romexes should enter a metal box through the same knockout. (Also true
for K&T.) Plastic boxes aren't a problem.

(For a service or feeder with paralleled conductors, you can sometimes
run separate plastic pipes for each phase. There are additional
requirements for where the pipes enter a metal box and for ground wires.)

The basic rule is 300.3-B and 300.3-B-3.

--
bud--

[RogerT]

wrote:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:00:11 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:
The informational note in the proposal says
"The provision for a (future) grounded conductor is to
provide power to electronic lighting control devices."

Is there someplace where this proposed new code is posted online? I
am curious as to what it all says, and whether it would apply to
single pole switches or to all switches -- including 3-way switches,
for example.

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab....asp?DocNum=70

Thanks for posting the link. I'll check it out.

Do you happen to know where in the code the part about having a neutral at
the switch is cited? I can search and try to find it, but if you know which
section I should look at, that would help.

[RogerT]

wrote in message
...
On Wed, 10 Nov 2010 15:40:11 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:

wrote:
On Mon, 8 Nov 2010 16:00:11 -0500, "RogerT"
wrote:
The informational note in the proposal says
"The provision for a (future) grounded conductor is to
provide power to electronic lighting control devices."

Is there someplace where this proposed new code is posted online? I
am curious as to what it all says, and whether it would apply to
single pole switches or to all switches -- including 3-way switches,
for example.

http://www.nfpa.org/aboutthecodes/Ab....asp?DocNum=70

Thanks for posting the link. I'll check it out.

Do you happen to know where in the code the part about having a neutral at
the switch is cited? I can search and try to find it, but if you know
which
section I should look at, that would help.


That will be in article 404.2(C) of the 2011 code.

Excellent. Thanks! I just read it. I think it also answers a question I
had about 3-way switches. It looks like there is an exception for 3-way
switches where the switch is wired as a switch loop.