[harry]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

[George]

On 6/25/2010 9:29 AM, harry wrote:
http://another.daily.post.that.has.n...h.thi s.group



I guessed you missed that the name of this group is "alt.home.repair"?

Or maybe you don't know about things like blogs which would be a great
venue for you to make your daily comment to the world?

[HeyBub[_3_]]

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

[Doug Miller]

In article , George wrote:
On 6/25/2010 9:29 AM, harry wrote:
http://another.daily.post.that.has.n...h.thi s.group



I guessed you missed that the name of this group is "alt.home.repair"?

Or maybe you don't know about things like blogs which would be a great
venue for you to make your daily comment to the world?

PDFTFT (Please Don't Feed The F*****g Trolls)

Trolls remain only where they are fed. Stop feeding this one and he'll go
away.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/25/2010 8:46 AM, HeyBub wrote:
harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!



You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.

TDD

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

TDD

[David Nebenzahl]

On 6/25/2010 6:46 AM HeyBub spake thus:

harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You know, "Bub", you really are one loathsome mother****er.

(Unless you're a total fraud and just putting on an act for us. Which I
doubt.)


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

[HeyBub[_3_]]

David Nebenzahl wrote:

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You know, "Bub", you really are one loathsome mother****er.

(Unless you're a total fraud and just putting on an act for us. Which
I doubt.)

To each his own, I guess.

I can applaude the skill of the violinist without swooning over the
selection of the piece he played.

Heck, when you consider that Lee Harvey Oswald got off three shots in five
and a half seconds, from a WWI bolt action rifle against a moving target and
scored two hits, well ...

And in a similar vein, I find your implied sympathy and support for the
peace activists to be shameful.

[Doug Miller]

In article , "HeyBub" wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
[typical David Nebenzahl tripe snipped]
[amusing, accurate, and entirely pointless response snipped]

PDFTFT

[Robert Green]

"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...
On 6/25/2010 8:46 AM, HeyBub wrote:
harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!



You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for a
head shot rather than the center of mass.

There were probably better ways to stop the ship, though, without leaving
the IDF and Israeli commandos faced with an investigation and lots of bad
publicity. I'd probably go with the favorite tool of the segregationist
Southern police forces: The high pressure firehose. Wash those decks
clean, pop a few tear gas grenades down the hatches and in the portholes and
clean up the hacking, wheezing leftovers with some cargo netting. A ship's
water cannon would have just swept them away. IIRC, Dirty Harry used one to
wash some bad guys out of a guard tower. Very effective and it makes much
better film for the evening news, people flying through the air propelled by
streams of water.

--
Bobby G.

[harry]

On Jun 27, 4:32*am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in ... On 6/25/2010 8:46 AM, HeyBub wrote:
harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...la-activists-a...



Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. *Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. *Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. *In this case, they appeared to be worried about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for a
head shot rather than the center of mass.

There were probably better ways to stop the ship, though, without leaving
the IDF and Israeli commandos faced with an investigation and lots of bad
publicity. *I'd probably go with the favorite tool of the segregationist
Southern police forces: *The high pressure firehose. *Wash those decks
clean, pop a few tear gas grenades down the hatches and in the portholes and
clean up the hacking, wheezing leftovers with some cargo netting. *A ship's
water cannon would have just swept them away. *IIRC, Dirty Harry used one to
wash some bad guys out of a guard tower. *Very effective and it makes much
better film for the evening news, people flying through the air propelled by
streams of water.

--
Bobby G.

Dirty Harry eh. Your Holly wood education shows up again. These guys
were pirates attacking a ship on the high seas. A cowardly attack on
unarmed civilians by a terrorist state.

[David Nebenzahl]

On 6/26/2010 5:23 PM HeyBub spake thus:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You know, "Bub", you really are one loathsome mother****er.

(Unless you're a total fraud and just putting on an act for us. Which
I doubt.)

To each his own, I guess.

I can applaude the skill of the violinist without swooning over the
selection of the piece he played.

Heck, when you consider that Lee Harvey Oswald got off three shots in five
and a half seconds, from a WWI bolt action rifle against a moving target and
scored two hits, well ...

Sp you actually believe the Warren Commission? Surprising considering
your political pedigree. (What, are you a closet JFK admirer?)

And in a similar vein, I find your implied sympathy and support for the
peace activists to be shameful.

Weak reply, sister.

You're despicable.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

[David Nebenzahl]

On 6/26/2010 6:53 PM Doug Miller spake thus:

In article , "HeyBub"
wrote:

David Nebenzahl wrote:

[typical David Nebenzahl tripe snipped]
[amusing, accurate, and entirely pointless response snipped]

PDFTFT

What, are you on some kind of messianic mission here? It would seem you
don't have me killfiled.


--
The fashion in killing has an insouciant, flirty style this spring,
with the flaunting of well-defined muscle, wrapped in flags.

- Comment from an article on Antiwar.com (http://antiwar.com)

[Robert Green]

"harry" wrote in message
...
On Jun 27, 4:32 am, "Robert Green" wrote:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
... On 6/25/2010 8:46
AM, HeyBub wrote:
harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...la-activists-a...



Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried
about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for
a
head shot rather than the center of mass.

There were probably better ways to stop the ship, though, without leaving
the IDF and Israeli commandos faced with an investigation and lots of bad
publicity. I'd probably go with the favorite tool of the segregationist
Southern police forces: The high pressure firehose. Wash those decks
clean, pop a few tear gas grenades down the hatches and in the portholes
and
clean up the hacking, wheezing leftovers with some cargo netting. A ship's
water cannon would have just swept them away. IIRC, Dirty Harry used one
to
wash some bad guys out of a guard tower. Very effective and it makes much
better film for the evening news, people flying through the air propelled
by
streams of water.

--
Bobby G.

Dirty Harry eh. Your Holly wood education shows up again. These guys
were pirates attacking a ship on the high seas. A cowardly attack on
unarmed civilians by a terrorist state.

I'm afraid you'll have to acknowledge that the US is bound together in a
large, crazy hyper-extended family that includes radio, TV and film. You
remember Ronald Reagan, he was the king of the movie metaphor. We're SO
into our extended movie family we made Ahnold governator of California.
I'll agree that sometimes, it doesn't work out so well, but that's America.

I agree that the blockade of Gaza (by not just Israel, but Egypt too) is not
the wisest course of action, but I challenge you to behave rationally when
everyone wants you gone. You *have* to know what that's like just a little
from the flack you get from the regulars here about OT posting. A better
solution needs to be found other than locking the Palestinians into a ghetto
just the way the Jews were treated in Poland before W.W. II. Should they
have waited until the ship was in their territorial waters? Yes. Should
they have used non-lethal control means. I've already said so - the water
cannon would have done the job. They got nervous and attacked a ship. When
the US gets nervous, we send several divisions of troops and an aircraft
carrier.

The Israelis used to be much smarter. They locked their jetliner cabin
doors a long time ago. The 9/11 attack could not have been carried out with
El Al planes. During my "purple suit" days at the Pentagon I worked with
many members of the IDF. They have the brains to figure out a better
solution to Gaza, but not the political will to implement them. It's
fantasy to think you can starve a population into submission in the modern
era. They are using the same tactics that the Romans used against them at
Masada. When's all this BS going to stop?

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"HeyBub" wrote in message
...
David Nebenzahl wrote:

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

You know, "Bub", you really are one loathsome mother****er.

(Unless you're a total fraud and just putting on an act for us. Which
I doubt.)

To each his own, I guess.

I can applaude the skill of the violinist without swooning over the
selection of the piece he played.

Heck, when you consider that Lee Harvey Oswald got off three shots in five
and a half seconds, from a WWI bolt action rifle against a moving target
and
scored two hits, well ...

And in a similar vein, I find your implied sympathy and support for the
peace activists to be shameful.

Yep, can't have anyone trying to work for a peaceful solution. That would
be FAR to sane. )-: As you might have learned, the flotilla did have an
effect and the Israelis are talking about reducing the severity of the
blockade. An admission that it's not having the desired effect.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
...
In article , "HeyBub"
wrote:
David Nebenzahl wrote:
[typical David Nebenzahl tripe snipped]
[amusing, accurate, and entirely pointless response snipped]

PDFTFT

Portable Document Format? Thin Film Transistor? Oh, Please Don't Feed the
Fine Trolls.

From what I observed that's not going to work in AHR nor has it ever seemed
to work because it's just too easy to bypass. Any new poster here has no
filters set. Anyone bent on flooding the group with OT posts can just
answer the newbies' question sincerely and pull a thread direction shift.
The worst part is that newbies that might have something to contribute read
some of the foul language that a few posters like to call each other and
they split with the impression this is a group full of mean-spirited
individuals incapable of working together for the common good.

Mark the OT thread OT and it's easy to just filter those threads. The
problem is that when the provocation is strong enough, even the most ardent
troll starver gets out his bag of biscuits and chimes right in . . .

People might be wise not to ask others to conform to rules they themselves
have a hard time following.

--
Bobby G.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

Robert Green wrote:

Yep, can't have anyone trying to work for a peaceful solution. That
would be FAR to sane. )-: As you might have learned, the flotilla
did have an effect and the Israelis are talking about reducing the
severity of the blockade. An admission that it's not having the
desired effect.

There are those who would suggest that killing the blockade runners IS an
effort toward a peaceful solution.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

David Nebenzahl wrote:

And in a similar vein, I find your implied sympathy and support for
the peace activists to be shameful.

Weak reply, sister.

You're despicable.

Well, yeah, I agree with you that my response IS a weak reply.

Admittedly, I do not use the "profanity arrows" in my quiver. Not that
they're not there, but, as I learned in the military, you save them for
added emphasis in dire situations. Routine use of obscenities renders the
obscenities impotent in exigent circumstances ("Oh, he always talks like
that - no hurry..."). I suspect that's one reason why Obama's Chief of
Staff's effectiveness has been dropping off lately.

Secondly, I don't engage in name-calling as a debate technique. Insults
regarding one's parentage, appearance, affection for animals, etc., have no
bearing on the merits of the argument and those who resort to such
techniques offtimes demonstrate a paucity of legitimate disputation.
Denigrating the messenger seldom has any bearing on the validity of the
message and is often the last refuge of those who've shot all their logical
arrows.

That doesn't mean I'm impotent. Paraphrasing that great anti-capitalist,
"Speak softly, carry a big stick, and whomp the dickens out of somebody
every once in a while."

[Robert Green]

I'm mostly a newcomer here, so everyone gets to start with a clean slate.

It's getting dirty awfully fast.

There's something to be gained from intelligent discussions by intelligent
people who are here *because* they are "fix it" oriented people, always
looking for a better way to do things. I'm beginning to think I was wrong
that the caliber of discussion here in OT:AHR was civil and smart.

Oh well . . .

--
Bobby G. (Who's thinking the SETI alert was mistaken . . . there may be
N.I.L. here.)

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Robert Green" wrote

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried
about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for
a
head shot rather than the center of mass

Bull. Spreading shots around will more than likely injure more than one
vital organ, and more than likely sever more than one blood vessel. It's a
Hollywood theory. And even the center mass theory has been updated in this
day of body armor. Spread them around, that is what I say. If a round goes
through an opponent, what's the sense in sending another through the hole?

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

[Ed Pawlowski[_2_]]

"Robert Green" wrote
There's something to be gained from intelligent discussions by intelligent
people who are here *because* they are "fix it" oriented people, always
looking for a better way to do things. I'm beginning to think I was wrong
that the caliber of discussion here in OT:AHR was civil and smart.

As most newsgroups, it has been declining in recent months. I think a lot
of it is from Google Groups. Then you have some anti-American crap that
likes to stir things.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
I'm mostly a newcomer here, so everyone gets to start with a clean slate.

It's getting dirty awfully fast.

There's something to be gained from intelligent discussions by intelligent
people who are here *because* they are "fix it" oriented people, always
looking for a better way to do things. I'm beginning to think I was wrong
that the caliber of discussion here in OT:AHR was civil and smart.

Oh well . . .

--
Bobby G. (Who's thinking the SETI alert was mistaken . . . there may be
N.I.L. here.)

For the most part, it is, in my experience of a few years now. But it is
just like reality. Raving loonies that come and go, and some stay and stay.
Read what you like, file the rest, and learn to use those little arrows and
delete keys on your computer.

Yeah, those.

Just like in real life, it takes two to have a conversation or argument, and
when one stops talking, the exchange ceases. Rule #1 is that you DON'T have
to talk to anyone you don't want to, just like real life. Just ignore them
or block call.

I am becoming less involved in most of the OT conversations here, as I am
just too busy, and am growing weary of suffering fools lightly. Most people
are insufferably uninformed, anyway, and trying to talk to them is like
trying to explain the fine nuances of sex or physics to a four year old.

As per HR, I know what I know, and am confident in that. I like to share
it, and many times, stuff I don't know, I'll ask here, if only to see who
will flame me for asking a simple question, and who will take the time to
answer it for the umpteenth time. Or refer me to Google. I get a lot of
help here, and hope that I also dispense a little now and again.

HTH

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

....and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

[Kurt Ullman]

In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:


Bull. Spreading shots around will more than likely injure more than one
vital organ, and more than likely sever more than one blood vessel. It's a
Hollywood theory. And even the center mass theory has been updated in this
day of body armor. Spread them around, that is what I say. If a round goes
through an opponent, what's the sense in sending another through the hole?

Two in body, one to the head
You be alive. He be dead.
(Although if you are a cop and have an especially active citizen group.
Should add a pause before going to the head to make sure force is still
needed. Praying all the while that he doesn't decide to shoot you.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

[willshak]

Robert Green wrote the following:
"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

On 6/25/2010 8:46 AM, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!



You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.


Double tap is the signature of the IDF.

It is also the pistol training of all countries military and Law
Enforcement . The purpose is not to put a second bullet through the same
hole as the first, as you seem to think. If you are going to kill
someone, you have a better chance with two quick shots than one. You
don't shoot one bullet and then wait to see if it was a fatal or
disabling shot before you shoot another bullet, especially if the target
is armed and pointing at you. Whether the Israelis double tapped, or
just executed the victims, is another question.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wbg2s2bfjhw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=55zawUndP50&NR=1

Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for a
head shot rather than the center of mass.

There were probably better ways to stop the ship, though, without leaving
the IDF and Israeli commandos faced with an investigation and lots of bad
publicity. I'd probably go with the favorite tool of the segregationist
Southern police forces: The high pressure firehose. Wash those decks
clean, pop a few tear gas grenades down the hatches and in the portholes and
clean up the hacking, wheezing leftovers with some cargo netting. A ship's
water cannon would have just swept them away. IIRC, Dirty Harry used one to
wash some bad guys out of a guard tower. Very effective and it makes much
better film for the evening news, people flying through the air propelled by
streams of water.

--
Bobby G.





--

Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
In the original Orange County. Est. 1683
To email, remove the double zeroes after @

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

TDD

[aemeijers]

The Daring Dufas wrote:
On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

TDD

I'm damn glad I have that option. I'm even glad you do. Some parts of
the world, due to lack of resources and transport, or nasty people with
guns saying 'get back in your house', all you can do when you hear
gunfire, is to hunker down and try not to be a target.

--
aem sends...

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/26/2010 10:32 PM, Robert Green wrote:
"The Daring wrote in message
...
On 6/25/2010 8:46 AM, HeyBub wrote:
harry wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...utopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!



You mean they didn't double tap the critters in the head? If
so they must be good shots to not waste any ammo.

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point on a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went for a
head shot rather than the center of mass.

There were probably better ways to stop the ship, though, without leaving
the IDF and Israeli commandos faced with an investigation and lots of bad
publicity. I'd probably go with the favorite tool of the segregationist
Southern police forces: The high pressure firehose. Wash those decks
clean, pop a few tear gas grenades down the hatches and in the portholes and
clean up the hacking, wheezing leftovers with some cargo netting. A ship's
water cannon would have just swept them away. IIRC, Dirty Harry used one to
wash some bad guys out of a guard tower. Very effective and it makes much
better film for the evening news, people flying through the air propelled by
streams of water.

--
Bobby G.



I live in Birmingham, Alabama and because every time there is a TV news
story about Birmingham, there is always that old film showing Negro
protesters being sprayed with water from fire hoses and being barked at
by police dogs. I like to point out that the protesters were sprayed
with WATER, not BULLETS and not one police dog developed indigestion
from eating dark meat! I personally know people who were involved and
know the truth about the whole overblown affair. One of my darker
cousins once jokingly told me that "Heck, that's what we did for fun to
cool off in hot weather because we weren't allowed in the public pools
and we got a free bath too!" There's what is written in history books
and then there's the truth, this also applies to what is going on in The
Middle East.

TDD

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
m...
In article ,
"Steve B" wrote:


Bull. Spreading shots around will more than likely injure more than one
vital organ, and more than likely sever more than one blood vessel. It's
a
Hollywood theory. And even the center mass theory has been updated in
this
day of body armor. Spread them around, that is what I say. If a round
goes
through an opponent, what's the sense in sending another through the
hole?

Two in body, one to the head
You be alive. He be dead.
(Although if you are a cop and have an especially active citizen group.
Should add a pause before going to the head to make sure force is still
needed. Praying all the while that he doesn't decide to shoot you.

--
I want to find a voracious, small-minded predator
and name it after the IRS.
Robert Bakker, paleontologist

Citizen carrying concealed have an approximate 15% strike the target rate
during actual real time shootouts. Police fare a little better, at around
22%. Remember, all those other %'s go flying down the block and way over
there, damaging who know what or who.

All this falderal about shot placement, and two here and two there, and two
in the same hole is just that. Falderal. Police officers shoot regularly,
and they still have problems hitting the bad guys. They just a have a
chance to shoot at them more often, that's why you hear about it. IIRC,
they do not ever publicize the misses.

One gunfight in Las Vegas estimated over 605 shots fired by perpetrator and
police. Three hit the perp, mainly the last one fired by a SWAT sniper.
Head shot. IIRC.

http://www.8newsnow.com/global/story.asp?S=4486079

I was listening to police scanner, and listened to it for several hours.
Gunfire in background ........... "Get him, get him, he's got us pinned
under the stairs ......... bang, bang, bang."

I guess they did follow the advice of two to the body, one to the head, it
just took 605 shots to do it. IIRC, he took one round in the buttocks.
OOps.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/27/2010 4:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

That's why I practice eternal vigilance. It could be thought of as
paranoia by some folks but I consider it prudence. I'm always aware
of where I am and what's going on around me. Some people think I'm
a bit strange because I don't leave anything unlocked or unsecured.

TDD

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:49:59 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 4:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

That's why I practice eternal vigilance. It could be thought of as
paranoia by some folks but I consider it prudence. I'm always aware
of where I am and what's going on around me. Some people think I'm
a bit strange because I don't leave anything unlocked or unsecured.


Again, while that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to
variables beyond your control.

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/27/2010 10:36 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:49:59 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 4:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

That's why I practice eternal vigilance. It could be thought of as
paranoia by some folks but I consider it prudence. I'm always aware
of where I am and what's going on around me. Some people think I'm
a bit strange because I don't leave anything unlocked or unsecured.


Again, while that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to
variables beyond your control.

Yea, some half nekid [sic] young woman may walk by and distract me.

TDD

[[email protected]]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:46:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 10:36 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:49:59 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 4:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

That's why I practice eternal vigilance. It could be thought of as
paranoia by some folks but I consider it prudence. I'm always aware
of where I am and what's going on around me. Some people think I'm
a bit strange because I don't leave anything unlocked or unsecured.


Again, while that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to
variables beyond your control.

Yea, some half nekid [sic] young woman may walk by and distract me.

You're more likely to get struck by lightning. ;-)

[The Daring Dufas[_6_]]

On 6/27/2010 11:02 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 22:46:30 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 10:36 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 20:49:59 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 4:14 PM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sun, 27 Jun 2010 13:26:07 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/27/2010 11:26 AM, zzzzzzzzzz wrote:
On Sat, 26 Jun 2010 01:02:44 -0500, The Daring Dufas
wrote:

On 6/25/2010 2:48 PM, HeyBub wrote:
Chief Two Eagles wrote:
On Fri, 25 Jun 2010 08:46:23 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

harry wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...lla-activists-
autopsy-results

Interesting link.

I knew the Israeli commandos were good shots, but, boy, this was
outstanding!

Most paramilitary/commando/swat etc.. are trained for a head shot.
It's the one shot, one kill mantra. Saves ammo too!

Saving ammunition is good.



Yea, you can kill more activists/terrorists.

...and fewer people unlucky enough to be in the wrong place today.

My strategy is to be someplace else when I hear or expect gunfire.

While that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to variables
beyond your control.

That's why I practice eternal vigilance. It could be thought of as
paranoia by some folks but I consider it prudence. I'm always aware
of where I am and what's going on around me. Some people think I'm
a bit strange because I don't leave anything unlocked or unsecured.


Again, while that's certainly a good plan, like all plans it's subject to
variables beyond your control.

Yea, some half nekid [sic] young woman may walk by and distract me.

You're more likely to get struck by lightning. ;-)

Dang! I just can't win!

TDD

[Robert Green]

"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point on
a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely deliver
a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to
penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried
about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went
for
a
head shot rather than the center of mass

Bull.

Good morning to you, sir!

Spreading shots around will more than likely injure more than one
vital organ, and more than likely sever more than one blood vessel. It's
a
Hollywood theory.

I didn't learn it from movies, much to Harry's chagrin, but from an IDF
officer I met on joint assignment. SHE also convinced me to upgrade from a
Beretta .380 to a Browning HP 9mm, which at the time was the NATO standard
sidearm at a time when the US still used the 1911 Colt. I've seen,
personally, two 9mm FMJ rounds penetrate what was then a Kevlar
state-of-the-art bullet *resistant* vest. A single shot only got embedded
but did serious structural damage to the vest at the point of impact.

Back in the '80's, we saw a lot of crims, terrorists and other non-military
situations using body armor and much concern was given by police and
military that they, themselves were vulnerable to double-tapping.

Are you *really* going to make me drag my tired butt through Google, Steve?
Maybe this is some Apple/IBM-like doctrinal thing I am unaware of, but I am
personally convinced that double tapping brings down more targets,
particularly the most dangerous types - the hardened target - than single
shots, spread shots, whatever.

There's also the cognitive issue of "time to reacquire the target" between
shots. Double-tapping makes it easier to compensate for the recoil and
bring the sight back to the original target. It's milliseconds, to be sure,
but you know those Israelis, they'll take any edge they can get. The fact
that they still teach it to all their soldiers alone convinces me that they
believe it works. If I was in a bad, bad situation, I'd want the IDF to
come pull me out, and if they weren't around, the USMC just because of how
much "heart" they have.

While looking for the IDF's training manuals I found this gem. Check out
what comes off NYC streets.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/category/police/

And even the center mass theory has been updated in this
day of body armor. Spread them around, that is what I say. If a round
goes
through an opponent, what's the sense in sending another through the hole?

The point is (har, har) that a single round often DOESN'T go through but it
creates enough structural damage to vests and intervening bone that the
second round does penetrate to a VO. I've seen that (well, test pictures
that were circulating at the time) so I believe it (at least concerning the
vests that were in use 20 years ago!) As I am sure you know, there are all
sorts of vests and all sorts of rounds, so generalizations really can't be
made. I bring up simply to report what I've seen and why I believe
double-tapping results in more "kills" than other shooting strategies.

You can see for yourself he

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/body_ar...stic_tests.htm

The pictures there show the results of one hit on a vest. It's easy to see
how a second one in the same place can penetrate the vest because of the
damage done by the first.

So, until I read conclusive evidence to the contrary, I will continue to
double-tap and probably dump the whole damn magazine if someone's
threatening my life. (-:

--
Bobby G.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"Robert Green" wrote in message
...
"Steve B" wrote in message
...

"Robert Green" wrote

Double tap is the signature of the IDF. Two shots, at the same point
on
a
target will almost always penetrate more deeply and more likely
deliver
a
lethal blow. Two shots can mimic the impact of a bullet of twice the
caliber by having one bullet help pave the way for a second to
penetrate
body armor or shatter ribs. In this case, they appeared to be worried
about
what would have if the targets did not drop immediately, so they went
for
a
head shot rather than the center of mass

Bull.

Good morning to you, sir!

Spreading shots around will more than likely injure more than one
vital organ, and more than likely sever more than one blood vessel. It's
a
Hollywood theory.

I didn't learn it from movies, much to Harry's chagrin, but from an IDF
officer I met on joint assignment. SHE also convinced me to upgrade from
a
Beretta .380 to a Browning HP 9mm, which at the time was the NATO standard
sidearm at a time when the US still used the 1911 Colt. I've seen,
personally, two 9mm FMJ rounds penetrate what was then a Kevlar
state-of-the-art bullet *resistant* vest. A single shot only got embedded
but did serious structural damage to the vest at the point of impact.

Back in the '80's, we saw a lot of crims, terrorists and other
non-military
situations using body armor and much concern was given by police and
military that they, themselves were vulnerable to double-tapping.

Are you *really* going to make me drag my tired butt through Google,
Steve?
Maybe this is some Apple/IBM-like doctrinal thing I am unaware of, but I
am
personally convinced that double tapping brings down more targets,
particularly the most dangerous types - the hardened target - than single
shots, spread shots, whatever.

There's also the cognitive issue of "time to reacquire the target" between
shots. Double-tapping makes it easier to compensate for the recoil and
bring the sight back to the original target. It's milliseconds, to be
sure,
but you know those Israelis, they'll take any edge they can get. The fact
that they still teach it to all their soldiers alone convinces me that
they
believe it works. If I was in a bad, bad situation, I'd want the IDF to
come pull me out, and if they weren't around, the USMC just because of how
much "heart" they have.

While looking for the IDF's training manuals I found this gem. Check out
what comes off NYC streets.

http://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/category/police/

And even the center mass theory has been updated in this
day of body armor. Spread them around, that is what I say. If a round
goes
through an opponent, what's the sense in sending another through the
hole?

The point is (har, har) that a single round often DOESN'T go through but
it
creates enough structural damage to vests and intervening bone that the
second round does penetrate to a VO. I've seen that (well, test pictures
that were circulating at the time) so I believe it (at least concerning
the
vests that were in use 20 years ago!) As I am sure you know, there are
all
sorts of vests and all sorts of rounds, so generalizations really can't be
made. I bring up simply to report what I've seen and why I believe
double-tapping results in more "kills" than other shooting strategies.

You can see for yourself he

http://www.savvysurvivor.com/body_ar...stic_tests.htm

The pictures there show the results of one hit on a vest. It's easy to
see
how a second one in the same place can penetrate the vest because of the
damage done by the first.

So, until I read conclusive evidence to the contrary, I will continue to
double-tap and probably dump the whole damn magazine if someone's
threatening my life. (-:

--
Bobby G.

You mention things in your own article or experience that show how wide the
variables are. One is the .380 vs. 9mm vs .45 ACP controversy. There has
been a ton of stuff lately from people who just swear and be damn that the
9mm and .380 are wimpy weapons that should be outright banned from the
planet, and nothing less than a .45 ACP, Casull, or S&W .50 should be
allowed.

The facts are that every day, people die from .22, .380, and 9mm rounds.
And I mean more than one or two.

For the purposes of this discussion, we must eliminate 99.9999% of the
general public. That group either does not own a gun, could not double tap
in a stressful situation no matter the training, would not carry a gun for
self defense no matter the reason, would not practice enough to get a double
tap unless there was a double fire malfunction, and other reasons. Most
don't have a clue about even what this conversation is about.

And for those here who do carry, who do have any LEO or military experience,
or who just shoot a lot, the % of those who get into hostage rescue
situations or real life shootouts are miniscule.

So, we sit back and RamboIze Monday Morning style.

No matter what you shoot, even shotgun buckshot, unless you are at least
proficient enough to hit your target, it is doubtful that one would gain
enough experience to even participate in this discussion, let alone make
meaningful comment from experience.

It's all talk. At least your last paragraph is realistic.

So, until I read conclusive evidence to the contrary, I will continue to
double-tap and probably dump the whole damn magazine if someone's
threatening my life. (-:

When was the last time, and how many people have you double tapped in real
life?

I rest my case.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.

[HeyBub[_3_]]

Steve B wrote:

The facts are that every day, people die from .22, .380, and 9mm
rounds. And I mean more than one or two.

I trust you're not presuming that this is a bad thing?


For the purposes of this discussion, we must eliminate 99.9999% of the
general public. That group either does not own a gun, could not
double tap in a stressful situation no matter the training, would not
carry a gun for self defense no matter the reason, would not practice
enough to get a double tap unless there was a double fire
malfunction, and other reasons. Most don't have a clue about even
what this conversation is about.

There are (estimated) 240 million firearms in the U.S. with a population of
300 million. This is, of course, is probably similar to the cat/dog
conundrum: there are more cats in the U.S. than dogs, but more dog owners.
Presumably because with cats - like guns - one cannot have too many.


It's all talk. At least your last paragraph is realistic.

So, until I read conclusive evidence to the contrary, I will
continue to double-tap and probably dump the whole damn magazine if
someone's threatening my life. (-:

When was the last time, and how many people have you double tapped in
real life?

I rest my case.

Well, I've multi-tapped at least seven, but that was years ago in a place
far, far away. Back then it was "spray and pray."

And don't discount the fact that the existence of people willing and ready
to "double-tap" or "dump the whole damn magazine" serves as a significant
deterrent to those contemplating some form of nastiness.

[Steve B[_10_]]

"HeyBub" wrote in message
m...
Steve B wrote:

The facts are that every day, people die from .22, .380, and 9mm
rounds. And I mean more than one or two.

I trust you're not presuming that this is a bad thing?


For the purposes of this discussion, we must eliminate 99.9999% of the
general public. That group either does not own a gun, could not
double tap in a stressful situation no matter the training, would not
carry a gun for self defense no matter the reason, would not practice
enough to get a double tap unless there was a double fire
malfunction, and other reasons. Most don't have a clue about even
what this conversation is about.

There are (estimated) 240 million firearms in the U.S. with a population
of 300 million. This is, of course, is probably similar to the cat/dog
conundrum: there are more cats in the U.S. than dogs, but more dog owners.
Presumably because with cats - like guns - one cannot have too many.


It's all talk. At least your last paragraph is realistic.

So, until I read conclusive evidence to the contrary, I will
continue to double-tap and probably dump the whole damn magazine if
someone's threatening my life. (-:

When was the last time, and how many people have you double tapped in
real life?

I rest my case.

Well, I've multi-tapped at least seven, but that was years ago in a place
far, far away. Back then it was "spray and pray."

And don't discount the fact that the existence of people willing and ready
to "double-tap" or "dump the whole damn magazine" serves as a significant
deterrent to those contemplating some form of nastiness.

At last, someone with actual real time experience. FYI, I am totally in
support of guns in the hands of citizens. I own a lot, and am on my way
upon receipt of a phone call to deliver a Ruger GP100 I just sold.

And yes, one cannot have too many pets, guns, or tools.

Steve

visit my blog at http://cabgbypasssurgery.com watch for the book

A fool shows his annoyance at once, but a prudent man overlooks an insult.