[Robert Green]

wrote in message
m...
Robert Green wrote:
The Hurricane center has predicted a much greater than usual season with
the
possibility of several cat 5 storms. While I am substantially inland,
the
recent issues with a sick tree have made me wonder what I should be
doing to
minimize the risks of hurricane damage should one hit. I used to feel
safer
from such storms, but since a tornado hit 5 blocks away, I am beginning
to
think no place along the east coast is really safe from hurricanes and
wind
storms. Especially since an F5 "super twister" hit just 50 miles away a
few
years ago in LaPlata, Md.



We live on the water, but haven't gotten direct hit.

After a hurricane, FEMA should sponsor tours of the devasted areas. I don't
believe people can appreciate the scale of serious weather disasters until
it happens to a place that you're familiar with and you see it and touch it
and realize it goes from horizon to horizon.

I recall visiting the path of the twister that went through our town and was
just shocked. Not only by the huge oak trees scattered like pixie sticks,
but by the general rearrangement of stuff. The tornado sliced right through
the local Home Depot, it got caught with huge bags of mulch and all the
other stuff they keep stacked outside vulnerable to the wind. Mulch was
everywhere, signs were everywhere (except where they should be) and it went
on for blocks and blocks. The tornado had followed, almost exactly, the
path of a small stream. It lifted cars 12 stories up, killing the
occupants. Until that day, tornadoes were something that happened to
Dorothy in movies and people in the midwest and the devastation was about a
TV screen's worth. It just did not compute until I saw it for myself.

Our worst winds were about 70 mph...took out the huge skylight in atrium
of our condo, but it wasn't secure because of roof damage. 5x15' plexi and
aluminum
skylight landed with the frame hanging in the top of one of our palm
trees, plexi smashed all over the yard. That amount of wind loosened
even concrete roof tiles on nearby homes, although I don't know if any
became missiles.

I had a bird cap fly off the chimney and become a missile. It smashed my
car windshield on the other side of the house. It was steel, sharp and
pointy and easily could have killed someone. I am stunned by the people who
know bad wind is coming and don't secure the basics like trash cans, lids,
patio furniture, etc.

The first thought is to keep exterior in good repair, caulking all tight
and leak-proof. Expect wind and rain, so weather radio and a plan are
most important. Secure important papers, have food and water for at
least three days, a place for pets if you need to vacate, plenty of any
rx meds, a plan to contact or meet neighbors in case neighborhood is
trashed, flashlights and batteries. Reinforce fasteners for roof
rafters Install brackets to brace garage doors - that is one quick way
for wind to destroy a home, the weakest point in many. If there are
tree limbs overhanging roof, get them trimmed so they don't bang on the
roof.

When I know a major storm is coming, I begin charging every chargeable
battery in the house (many!) and empty and replenish the emergency water
supply. I secure all external items that I can. If I were in the middle of
the hurricane belt I would convert my decorative window shutters to real
ones. I also backup the main computer to DVD-R and lock a copy inside the
FireKing. It weighs over 500lbs so I assume it won't get far in a storm.

I don't know the record for storm-carried objects, but I recently saw a doco
about the 1935 hurricane that described how some Rhode Island kids were
carried safely to the next state in a raft that was actually the top portion
of the attic where they had sought safety from the surge. Amazingly, it had
broken free, floor and all, when the surge reached that height and sailed
off in the storm like a little lifeboat.

We have had two mandatory evacuations, one of which lasted three days.

Lots of people still have hurricance parties to try to ride out the storm.
I don't think I would now in my post-youth. (-: The problem with
evacuations is that most cities long ago exceeded their ability to move so
many people so quickly. I heard one forecaster, I think it was Bob Sheets,
say that if you have serious rush hour traffic problems on a daily basis,
evacuation is probably going to be very difficult. So many places are
dependent on one or two choke points like bridges that throttle the flow
severely. And you can count on people being so freaked out that they drive
worse than usual.

A friend on Hawaii says that after several false tidal wave evacs, he's
certain a lot of people will just ignore the warning when a real one hits.

We had to secure stuff like trash cans because there is no indoor
storage for them...If there are elderly or disabled neighbors, make sure
they are taken care of. Hurricanes usually have tornadoes dancing
around the edges, so be ready for anything. I'd be inclined to have
hurricane shutters even if not on water.

If you've even had a grazing hit, shutters are a great idea because they
really lessen the damage potential. Even without a hurricane, a good
Florida frog-strangler rainstorm can dump an enormous amount of water
through a broken house window, especially wind driven rain. I spent some
time there in the 80's and I've never seen rain like that anywhere ever.
And then five minutes of feeling like you're driving a submarine, the clouds
vanish, the rain burns off and it's like nothing ever happened. Florida is
where I learned to always check my sunroof on the car, no matter how blue
the skies were that second!

During some flood several years ago, there was a news item about a guy
who sandbagged all around his house after laying up plastic tarps.
There was about 3-4 feet of flood water, but none got into his home, I
was impressed ) Dang lot of work.

My friend, a fireman (they call them fireys) in Oz said that after several
serious brush fires, people have installed diesel powered roof sprinklers,
slate roofs and even have built insulated "safe rooms" inside their house to
wait out the blaze. I saw a picture last week of a man who had built a
similar safe room in his house in the tornado belt and sure enough,
everything else was smashed flat and he stood in the door of his
still-standing safe room, happy to be alive but not to cheered by the state
of the rest of his house. You can do that with a tornado, but it would have
to be a waterproof unit with a heavy duty snorkel or scuba tanks to survive
the massive storm surges that often accompanying the big ones. I often
thought the escape egg that Donald Pleasance rides in the movie Escape from
New York would be a handy thing to have in the hurricane or tidal wave
vulnerable areas. Maybe a surplus Mercury space capsule would work, too.

As for names, I think we should have unisex names for hurricanes. Here's
Pat! (or Alex, Sam, Chris, Jean, Terry, Bobby, Dweezel, Moon Unit, etc,)

--
Bobby G.

[[email protected][_2_]]

We had family in northern Indiana at the time of the Palm Sunday
tornadoes, 1965. Part of that storm was a double funnel, and the damage
was eerily evident for many years afterward. There were loads of
stories in the papers...2x4's driven through tree trunks, kids pulled
from the arms of their parents, etc. Weird stuff, like a bottle of
aspiring turned to powder inside a medicine cabinet but no damage to the
structure. One large subdivision was small homes all built on slabs,
which we toured a couple of weeks after the storm. It is really an
awful sight. Can probably still see the path in places where trees were
mowed down, just like seeing a path mown through tall grass in the lawn.

During one of our mandatory evacs in '05 for hurricanes, we were still
potentially in the path of the eye, so there was no thought in my mind
about staying at home. My hubby would not leave, so I went to a motel
with a girlfriend. Went back home to pick up more important stuff, and,
hopefully, my hubby. He still would not leave, so my "stuff" really did
not matter any more ) A twenty-foot storm surge would put about 5
feet of water in my upstairs neighbor's condo...when I go, I don't want
it to be from drowning or being crushed by part of a building.

My city is still building right up to the sandy beach...totally insane.
I was raised in Chicago and there are miles and miles of waterfront
that are open and scenic. Florida is a dump. I'm tempted to pray for
tarballs to wash up on our beach...I'd be glad to go out and help clean
up and enjoy being able to get out of the neighborhood on a weekend
without tourist traffic )

[dpb]

Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
m...
....

... Until that day, tornadoes were something that happened to
Dorothy in movies and people in the midwest and the devastation was about a
TV screen's worth. It just did not compute until I saw it for myself.

Indeed, that's generally true and in my observation while living in VA
and TN is far more so for those east of Mississippi and not on the
coasts where really severe weather isn't so common or generally _quite_
as severe. City dwellers also generally are more protected from the
consequences other than the rare direct hit than are more rural areas w/
fewer services, etc., also, I think contributes to the problem.

....

I don't know the record for storm-carried objects, ...

I've no idea about "records" either, as I don't think there is any such
thing other than anecdotal evidence generally collected as anything
except novelty (as opposed to an actual study of same except as done by
NOAA/NWS for classification purposes).

But, my latest relatively local (100 mi) example of the incredible is
the Greensburg (KS) EF5 that obliterated 90+% of the town. It left a JD
9600-series combine over ten miles from its starting point in the
dealer's lot on the west edge of town.

MANUFACTURER MODEL
John Deere 9670 STS
Headers
Platforms 25 ft, 30 ft, 35 ft, 40 ft
Row-Crop Heads ---
Corn Heads 12 Narrow, 8 Wide
....
Engine
Type John Deere 6 cyl. 9.0 L
Displacement 548 cu. in. (9.0 L)
....
Horsepower 305
Horsepower with Power Boost 338
Grain Handling
Grain Tank Size 250 bu. or 300 bu. optional
Unloading Auger Length 21.5, 22.5 or 26-ft ...
....
Capacities
Fuel Capacity 250 gal.
Transport Height (in the field position) 14-ft. 10-in.
Base Weight-Less Head
Grain ---
Corn 32,661 lb. (14815 kg)


--

[Smitty Two]

In article ,
"Robert Green" wrote:

The tornado ... lifted cars 12 stories up, killing the occupants.


(The FireKing) weighs over 500lbs so I assume it won't get far in a storm.


All right then.

[Robert Green]

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
wrote in message
m...
...

... Until that day, tornadoes were something that happened to
Dorothy in movies and people in the midwest and the devastation was
about a
TV screen's worth. It just did not compute until I saw it for myself.

Indeed, that's generally true and in my observation while living in VA
and TN is far more so for those east of Mississippi and not on the
coasts where really severe weather isn't so common or generally _quite_
as severe. City dwellers also generally are more protected from the
consequences other than the rare direct hit than are more rural areas w/
fewer services, etc., also, I think contributes to the problem.

Eventually, either a Cat5 'cane or an F5 tornado is going to barrel through
a major US city. We've had a lot of near misses - the F5 that hit La Plata,
Maryland could have just as easily hit the nation's capital. If the 'cane
of 35 happened today, crossing over Long Island and into Rhode Island, the
damage would be close to incomprehensible. Evacuating Long Island wouldn't
be very easy if it's possible at all - everyone would have to go through NYC
and just a few bridges to find safety.

Anyone who's been in NYC during a bad rush hour knows that many, many
islanders won't make it. The same problems go for many, many coastal areas.
If that happens, we'll be bailing out the insurance industry, who will make
their denial of Katrina claims look like a big money giveaway. The Feds, I
am sure, have been vigilant regulating the insurance industry as thoroughly
as they did the stock market, the banks and the off shore drilling industry.
There hasn't been a big payout from insurers since the stock market tanked
and I am sure they bought up junk CDO's just like every other large
investor. They've just been able to conceal their losses better than other
investors.

I don't know the record for storm-carried objects, ...

I've no idea about "records" either, as I don't think there is any such
thing other than anecdotal evidence generally collected as anything
except novelty (as opposed to an actual study of same except as done by
NOAA/NWS for classification purposes).

But, my latest relatively local (100 mi) example of the incredible is
the Greensburg (KS) EF5 that obliterated 90+% of the town. It left a JD
9600-series combine over ten miles from its starting point in the
dealer's lot on the west edge of town.

Ouch! That's quite a trip. Now that video cameras are everywhere, there's
some unbelievable close-up footage of tornadoes and their power. I recall
seeing slo-mo footage of a tractor trailer, a cow, a couch and a pickup
truck all airborne and whirling around in the debris cloud.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"dpb" wrote in message
...
Robert Green wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
...
But, my latest relatively local (100 mi) example of the incredible is
the Greensburg (KS) EF5 that obliterated 90+% of the town. It left a
JD
9600-series combine over ten miles from its starting point in the
dealer's lot on the west edge of town.

Ouch! That's quite a trip. Now that video cameras are everywhere,
there's
some unbelievable close-up footage of tornadoes and their power. I
recall
seeing slo-mo footage of a tractor trailer, a cow, a couch and a pickup
truck all airborne and whirling around in the debris cloud.
...

I'll venture a guess that was from the terrible movie some years ago.

Definetly NOT!

Sounds very much like the epic scene therefrom. (I have seen that
claimed to be real, not special effects). I would be most surprised if
that were, in fact, actual storm footage, amateur or spotter, and quite
interested to see it if it really were.

They had to freeze the frame and draw little circles around the items in the
debris cloud, but once they did, you could easily pick out the large
vehicles. The amount of "real world" tornado footage has increased
dramatically because of cell phone cams, security cams and consumer cams
with video clip ability. I know the scene of a family scrambling to get up
under an overpass was real - you could see the grass flattening and hear
people screaming for their lives as the twister rode right up on top of
them.

I've seen precious little footage that has much specific debris of major
size actually discernible in real footage owing to several factors...if
they're really large enough, the amount of dirt and other stuff is such
that it isn't possible to see far into the wind field itself. Lots of
tin, paper, sheathing, etc., yes; automobiles and such not so much.

When you see a pickup truck whirling around 100's of feet off the ground it
sticks in your mind. You can easily see large chunks of debris silhouetted
against a clear sky in some of the pictures you'll find he

http://www.google.com/images?q=airborne+tornado+debris

especially:

http://www.tapestryinstitute.org/tor...ges/debris.jpg

Quite often other than on the far horizon when first form, the funnel
itself is rain-wrapped to the point it's not even possible to tell
there's actually a funnel at all other than rare glimpse that often
can't be told from a lower wall cloud, anyway.

That's true of many tornadoes, but it's clear that some of them present very
good displays of what's whirling around in the debris cloud.

That site says: "F-3 or F-4 tornado in Pampa, Texas on June 8, 1995. Scale
is deceptive; larger pieces of debris in this photograph are vehicles that
were picked up from an oil company parking lot and large sections of sheet
metal roofing, according to photographer Alan Moller, a National Weather
Service employee and storm chaser. Video taken of that same funnel by a
sheriff on the scene clearly shows pickup trucks and vans airborne at an
altitude of 80 to 90 feet off the ground: the height of an 8-story
building."

Then, on top of that, a large number form from late afternoon or evening
mesoscale thunderstorms so that by the time there are tornadoes it's
already dark.

Yeah, but they obviously aren't all like that.

Not that there aren't a few, but with as many as there are in the area
and with all the spotters w/ cameras monitoring all of them I don't
think I've ever actually seen that kind of footage during the event
itself; only the aftereffects.

Watch more Weather Channel! (-:

Spotters followed the Greensburg tornado for over two hours and almost
70-80 miles of total track trailing directly behind it but other than a
couple of shots against horizon before it got to be truly huge, it was
typical in that it was difficult to spot except by lightning or by
watching where transformer flashes were as it took out power lines, etc.

I've seen plenty of footage like the Pampa shot where the debris cloud is
perfectly illuminated. The problem is that the photos are usually taken
from so far away that it's hard to see what's rolling around the funnel
until you magnify them. They don't look like the close-up and obviously FX
shots in the movies. I am sure you'll eventually see the footage I am
talking about and be able to pick out the trucks, car, vans and other huge
items that tornadoes routinely pick up and spin.

Here's one of the most magnificent tornado photos I have ever seen:

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com...11/tornado.jpg

--
Bobby G.

[Ron]

On Jun 7, 1:02*am, "Robert Green" wrote:

Here's one of the most magnificent tornado photos I have ever seen:

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com...11/tornado.jpg

That is awesome!

[Robert Green]

"dpb" wrote in message
...
dpb wrote:
Robert Green wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
...
But, my latest relatively local (100 mi) example of the incredible is
the Greensburg (KS) EF5 that obliterated 90+% of the town. It left a
JD
9600-series combine over ten miles from its starting point in the
dealer's lot on the west edge of town.

Ouch! That's quite a trip. ...

Oh, BTW...don't think that the combine "flew" -- it mostly rolled it
like a not-so-round bowling ball. Still I guesstimated based on weight
and surface area center-of-gravity it took well over 200 mph winds to
tip it and get it going initially. It wasn't possible because of the
debris field left in town from all the destroyed houses, trees, etc., to
see a damage track it left except for a good gouge in the asphalt in the
dealer drive from whence it left, but out of town through the fields it
was pretty clear damage track that traced its progress...

I've heard many descriptions of close encounters. Two that stuck in my mind
were "It looked like God was hungry and was sucking everything in sight up
through a straw" and "When the funnel tip passed over things, they would
whoosh straight up like they were on an invisible elevator."

All things considered, a tornado is basically a natural vacuum cleaner.
Light items probably go straight up like rockets and cars and combines
probably bounce around inside the funnel stratified by weight until their
equilibrium is disturbed (a collision with more debris enter the base) and
the item falls out.

I've seen footage taken by a news chopper looking straight down into the
funnels of several small tornados. Very dark and lots of lightning in the
larger funnels. I had always assumed that the funnels didn't have a top,
even though that kind of makes no sense, only because very few people had
ever seen a tornado from above.

When you see tornado tracks from the air, the curleycue marks left on the
ground where the funnel tip scours the earth look like God was doodling on
scrap paper. I'm not sure of the total "lift capacity" of an F5 twister,
but I know that an F2 class storm lifted a car with two people in it over 9
stories and then dropped it, killed the passengers inside. There will
probably be some good metrics on tornado lift since more and more "test
devices" are getting sucked up and carried along, revealing more about the
insides of tornadoes than we ever knew befo

http://blogs.discovery.com/storm_cha...h-machine.html

I did manage to find the video of a look inside the funnel:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_212538.html

I also found a lot more sites with good daylight photos.

http://cache.boston.com/universal/si...6_17/iowa1.jpg

The above photo shows how close people are getting to the funnel with
cameras in very good light. I don't think this funnel had begun sucking up
debris yet.

Here's another broad daylight encounter:

http://images.pictureshunt.com/pics/t/tornado-12431.jpg

and another

http://s.ngeo.com/wpf/media-live/pho...27_600x450.jpg

The problem with tornado photos is that to see detail in the debris cloud
you have to frame the shot so that you can't see the funnel anymore. Most
people keep the focus on the funnel and not on the debris. Also, if you are
close enough to the debris cloud to get good pictures, you're close enough
to get hammered to death by a whirling cow, truck or water tank. Who
hasn't seen a clip that shows white-knuckled twister chasers screaming "IT'S
FOLLOWING US!!!!?" when a twister they have been chasing turns the tables
and starts chasing THEM.

--
Bobby G.

[Robert Green]

"Ron" wrote in message
...
On Jun 7, 1:02 am, "Robert Green" wrote:

Here's one of the most magnificent tornado photos I have ever seen:

http://listverse.files.wordpress.com...11/tornado.jpg

That is awesome!

Can you imagine looking out your window at a night thunderstorm and seeing
THAT thing lit up by a large lightning bolt? When you're that far away you
could be easily completely unaware that a funnel that size was nearby. I
think I might soil my union suit - it's the ultimate boogeyman.

--
Bobby G.

[dpb]

Robert Green wrote:
"dpb" wrote in message
...
....

All things considered, a tornado is basically a natural vacuum cleaner.
Light items probably go straight up like rockets and cars and combines
probably bounce around inside the funnel stratified by weight until their
equilibrium is disturbed (a collision with more debris enter the base) and
the item falls out.
....

Not really. There is reduced pressure, true, but afaik there still are
not really definitive measurements of the actual minimum pressures to be
expected in the core vortex. There are eyewitness accounts from folks
said they watched their aneroid barometers during an event that claim as
much as 5" Hg drop, but all the vortex models and what data have been
collected are significantly less than that (more on the order of 100
mbar for F5-scale vortices).

The bulk of the damage and the tendency to move things is the bulk wind
velocity air pressure force. The legend that the pressure drop
"explodes" houses is just that; in reality, roofs tend to come off and
the damage looks like it's from the inside out because of the lift force
from the Bernoulli principle--lower pressure generated by higher
velocity owing to shape differential. It's the same thing as airplane
wing lift force.

Yes, there are lots of photos in daylight; I've seen a number myself.
Thing is, there aren't many that actually show the movie scenario of
that kind of stuff rotating around in the middle simply because even in
daylight by the time you have that much stuff in the air there's so much
dirt and small debris the visibility is occluded. Eventually, one of
the watch/chaser instrumented packages or vehicles will indeed get some
footage but I'm not holding my breath on seeing the bus and the cow
circling one another as in the movie.

Yes, there are seemingly incredible events; a sheriff's officer in his
car was killed while trying to serve as early warning by a second EF-5
spawned N of Greensburg the same evening. It ended up some mile or so
off the road from where they think he was parked. An automobile is
light enough that indeed it can become airborne but again, it's almost
all wind forces, not "sucked up" by the pressure differential. Heavier
items also get carried along and thrown around because they have larger
surface area.

--

[[email protected][_2_]]

clipped

Yes, there are lots of photos in daylight; I've seen a number myself.
Thing is, there aren't many that actually show the movie scenario of
that kind of stuff rotating around in the middle simply because even in
daylight by the time you have that much stuff in the air there's so much
dirt and small debris the visibility is occluded. Eventually, one of
the watch/chaser instrumented packages or vehicles will indeed get some
footage but I'm not holding my breath on seeing the bus and the cow
circling one another as in the movie.

Heck, just leave the cell phone and digital camera on the porch next
time there is a T warning )

Yes, there are seemingly incredible events; a sheriff's officer in his
car was killed while trying to serve as early warning by a second EF-5
spawned N of Greensburg the same evening. It ended up some mile or so
off the road from where they think he was parked. An automobile is
light enough that indeed it can become airborne but again, it's almost
all wind forces, not "sucked up" by the pressure differential. Heavier
items also get carried along and thrown around because they have larger
surface area.

--