I want to add a surface-mounted GFCI outlet on the wall in an unfinished
basement (for a washing machine). The wiring going to the outlet will be
12/2 NM.

I think I can figure out how to do it if I just use a metal box and metal
conduit. But, I am wondering if there is a way that I can do it using
plastic/PVC instead of metal. I am thinking of using this type of PVC
box:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4FYW1 ,

and then running the 12/2 NM wire down along the wall through 1/2-inch PVC
conduit to get to the box.

If I do that, my question is, "Is there some type of fitting or adapter
that goes on the top end of the PVC conduit where the 12/2 NM enters the
PVC conduit?"

If so, is that type of fitting shown anywhere in this product brochure?:

http://www.kraloyfittings.com/downlo...loy%20ftgs.pdf


*I do not know of a fitting or combination of fittings that will be in
compliance for sleeving Romex through PVC. You need to have a connector on
the end of the PVC and the only way that I can think to accomplish this is
using a PVC female adaptor and a two screw metal squeeze connector. However
by code the metal connector must be grounded. If you want conduit, use 1/2"
EMT with a changeover connector on the end. A four inch metal square box
for the outlet will be cheaper than that plastic one at Grainger. Home
Depot sells EMT offset connectors for going into the box.

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You could just
mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the wire to it as well
as screw the box to it.

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...
I want to add a surface-mounted GFCI outlet on the wall in an unfinished
basement (for a washing machine). The wiring going to the outlet will be
12/2 NM.

I think I can figure out how to do it if I just use a metal box and metal
conduit. But, I am wondering if there is a way that I can do it using
plastic/PVC instead of metal. I am thinking of using this type of PVC
box:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4FYW1 ,

and then running the 12/2 NM wire down along the wall through 1/2-inch
PVC conduit to get to the box.

If I do that, my question is, "Is there some type of fitting or adapter
that goes on the top end of the PVC conduit where the 12/2 NM enters the
PVC conduit?"

If so, is that type of fitting shown anywhere in this product brochure?:

http://www.kraloyfittings.com/downlo...loy%20ftgs.pdf


*I do not know of a fitting or combination of fittings that will be in
compliance for sleeving Romex through PVC. You need to have a connector
on the end of the PVC and the only way that I can think to accomplish this
is using a PVC female adaptor and a two screw metal squeeze connector.
However by code the metal connector must be grounded. If you want
conduit, use 1/2" EMT with a changeover connector on the end. A four inch
metal square box for the outlet will be cheaper than that plastic one at
Grainger. Home Depot sells EMT offset connectors for going into the box.

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You could
just mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the wire to it
as well as screw the box to it.

Thanks. I think the code now says that the wire running down the wall needs
to be protected and that the old way of stapling the NM to a 1x4 on the wall
is no longer considered acceptable. But I don't know that for sure -- it's
just something I think I picked up somewhere along the way.

I do know that I could do the whole thing using metal as you suggested, and
I may end up doing that. But I would like to be able to use PVC if I can do
it that way. I have a hunch that the PVC conduit and fittings are not made
to do what I want to do and instead are made for continuous end-to-end
waterproof conduit etc.

I want to add a surface-mounted GFCI outlet on the wall in an unfinished
basement (for a washing machine). The wiring going to the outlet will
be 12/2 NM.

I think I can figure out how to do it if I just use a metal box and
metal conduit. But, I am wondering if there is a way that I can do it
using plastic/PVC instead of metal. I am thinking of using this type of
PVC box:

http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/4FYW1 ,

and then running the 12/2 NM wire down along the wall through 1/2-inch
PVC conduit to get to the box.

If I do that, my question is, "Is there some type of fitting or adapter
that goes on the top end of the PVC conduit where the 12/2 NM enters the
PVC conduit?"

If so, is that type of fitting shown anywhere in this product brochure?:

http://www.kraloyfittings.com/downlo...loy%20ftgs.pdf


*I do not know of a fitting or combination of fittings that will be in
compliance for sleeving Romex through PVC. You need to have a connector
on the end of the PVC and the only way that I can think to accomplish
this is using a PVC female adaptor and a two screw metal squeeze
connector. However by code the metal connector must be grounded. If you
want conduit, use 1/2" EMT with a changeover connector on the end. A
four inch metal square box for the outlet will be cheaper than that
plastic one at Grainger. Home Depot sells EMT offset connectors for
going into the box.

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You could
just mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the wire to it
as well as screw the box to it.

Thanks. I think the code now says that the wire running down the wall
needs to be protected and that the old way of stapling the NM to a 1x4 on
the wall is no longer considered acceptable. But I don't know that for
sure -- it's just something I think I picked up somewhere along the way.

I do know that I could do the whole thing using metal as you suggested,
and I may end up doing that. But I would like to be able to use PVC if I
can do it that way. I have a hunch that the PVC conduit and fittings are
not made to do what I want to do and instead are made for continuous
end-to-end waterproof conduit etc.


*The conduit sleeve is not required unless you anticipate possible physical
damage to the wire if it is not protected. You can use the PVC and a metal
box together. You just ground the box. If you have a code book read
article 334.15.

John Grabowski wrote:

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You
could just mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the
wire to it as well as screw the box to it.

Thanks. I think the code now says that the wire running down the
wall needs to be protected and that the old way of stapling the NM
to a 1x4 on the wall is no longer considered acceptable. But I
don't know that for sure -- it's just something I think I picked up
somewhere along the way.

*The conduit sleeve is not required unless you anticipate possible
physical damage to the wire if it is not protected. You can use the
PVC and a metal box together. You just ground the box. If you have
a code book read article 334.15.

Thanks. I did just read 334.15 online at
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB .

There seems to be a gray area in there somewhere in terms of the "protection
from physical damage" issue. It doesn't seem to be clear. Apparently, it
is specifically okay to staple NM cable along running boards that go across
the ceiling joists in an unfinished basement.

But, there is nothing specific about the stapling of NM cable to a running
board that goes vertically down the wall to an outlet or switch. I guess
that means it is allowed unless there is some reason to believe that the NM
cable there needs to be protected from physical damage.

Jay-T wrote:
John Grabowski wrote:

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You
could just mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the
wire to it as well as screw the box to it.

Thanks. I think the code now says that the wire running down the
wall needs to be protected and that the old way of stapling the NM
to a 1x4 on the wall is no longer considered acceptable. But I
don't know that for sure -- it's just something I think I picked up
somewhere along the way.

*The conduit sleeve is not required unless you anticipate possible
physical damage to the wire if it is not protected. You can use the
PVC and a metal box together. You just ground the box. If you have
a code book read article 334.15.

Thanks. I did just read 334.15 online at
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB .

There seems to be a gray area in there somewhere in terms of the
"protection from physical damage" issue. It doesn't seem to be
clear. Apparently, it is specifically okay to staple NM cable along
running boards that go across the ceiling joists in an unfinished
basement.
But, there is nothing specific about the stapling of NM cable to a
running board that goes vertically down the wall to an outlet or
switch. I guess that means it is allowed unless there is some reason
to believe that the NM cable there needs to be protected from
physical damage.

Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just different
identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are set
up with different identities.

On May 21, 3:25*pm, "Beta-42" wrote:
JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. *I seem to be suffering from multiple computer multiple
personality disorder. *It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

On May 21, 3:33*pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25*pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. *I seem to be suffering from multiple computer multiple
personality disorder. *It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.

"keith" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 3:33 pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer
multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are
set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.


There is actually no NEC requirement for "washers" to have GFCI protection.
GFCI protection is governed by the location of the outlet, and or appliance
manufacturer requirements

John Grabowski wrote:

I'm not sure why you need to sleeve the wire down the wall. You
could just mount a 1"x4" piece of wood down the wall and staple the
wire to it as well as screw the box to it.

Thanks. I think the code now says that the wire running down the
wall needs to be protected and that the old way of stapling the NM
to a 1x4 on the wall is no longer considered acceptable. But I
don't know that for sure -- it's just something I think I picked up
somewhere along the way.

*The conduit sleeve is not required unless you anticipate possible
physical damage to the wire if it is not protected. You can use the
PVC and a metal box together. You just ground the box. If you have
a code book read article 334.15.

Thanks. I did just read 334.15 online at
http://nfpaweb3.gvpi.net/rrserver/br...NFPASTD/7008SB .

There seems to be a gray area in there somewhere in terms of the
"protection from physical damage" issue. It doesn't seem to be clear.
Apparently, it is specifically okay to staple NM cable along running
boards that go across the ceiling joists in an unfinished basement.


Yes.



But, there is nothing specific about the stapling of NM cable to a running
board that goes vertically down the wall to an outlet or switch. I guess
that means it is allowed unless there is some reason to believe that the
NM cable there needs to be protected from physical damage.


Yes. I have seen instances where the NM cable was strapped directly to the
unfinished basement wall. If you keep the receptacle up high enough so that
it is above the machine and not behind, there should be no physical damage
issue.

terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:
JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.
Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

Refrigeration that plugs into 15/20A 120V receptacles in commercial
kitchens has to be on GFCI protected circuits. The problem is leakage,
not imbalance. As John said, these days appliances in good repair should
not trip GFCIs.

--
bud--

On Fri, 21 May 2010 17:12:53 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"keith" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 3:33 pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer
multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are
set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.


There is actually no NEC requirement for "washers" to have GFCI protection.
GFCI protection is governed by the location of the outlet, and or appliance
manufacturer requirements

I thought any outlet near (within 6'?) service had to be GFCI protected.

wrote in message
...
On Fri, 21 May 2010 17:12:53 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"keith" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 3:33 pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer
multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org
new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are
set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.


There is actually no NEC requirement for "washers" to have GFCI
protection.
GFCI protection is governed by the location of the outlet, and or
appliance
manufacturer requirements

I thought any outlet near (within 6'?) service had to be GFCI protected.


Any outlet within 6 feet of a sink needs to be GFCI protected. You don't
necessarily have a sink within 6 feet of a washer

Beta-42 wote:
But, there is nothing specific about the stapling of NM cable to a
running board that goes vertically down the wall to an outlet or
switch. I guess that means it is allowed unless there is some
reason to believe that the NM cable there needs to be protected from
physical damage.

John Grabowski wrote:
Yes. I have seen instances where the NM cable was strapped directly
to the unfinished basement wall. If you keep the receptacle up high
enough so that it is above the machine and not behind, there should
be no physical damage issue.

Thanks. I'm still going to use the PVC conduit that I planned on using for
this one project. But, now I know that in some other cases in an unfinished
basement I can just staple the NM cable to a running board that goes down to
a wall outlet or switch if the setup is such that there is no reason to
believe the NM cable needs to be protected from physical damage. I had
thought that was no longer permitted, but I guess it can be okay in some
circumstances.

On Sat, 22 May 2010 16:14:00 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
.. .
On Fri, 21 May 2010 17:12:53 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"keith" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 3:33 pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer
multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org
new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers are
set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.


There is actually no NEC requirement for "washers" to have GFCI
protection.
GFCI protection is governed by the location of the outlet, and or
appliance
manufacturer requirements

I thought any outlet near (within 6'?) service had to be GFCI protected.


Any outlet within 6 feet of a sink needs to be GFCI protected. You don't
necessarily have a sink within 6 feet of a washer

Ah, I thought the water pipe was considered a "sink". It'll certainly sink
electrons, like one. ;-)

wrote in message
...
On Sat, 22 May 2010 16:14:00 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


wrote in message
. ..
On Fri, 21 May 2010 17:12:53 -0400, "RBM" wrote:


"keith" wrote in message
...
On May 21, 3:33 pm, terry wrote:
On May 21, 3:25 pm, "Beta-42" wrote:

JayTKR wrote:
Oops, just to clarify "Jay-T" and "Beta-42" are both me, just
different identities set up on two different Usenet newsservers.

Oops, sorry again. I seem to be suffering from multiple computer
multiple
personality disorder. It started when the news.eternal-september.org
new
server was down for a while and I was using my backup news servers
are
set
up with different identities.

Washers contain an AC motor; any possibility of the GFI outlet
'tripping'. (Due to momentary unbalance currents).
Thinking of the same reason that GFIs not recommended for fridges etc.
that also contain motor!

They (both GFCIs and 'fridges) are *supposed* to be better about
nuisance tripping. In any case, if the washing machine nuisance trips
it's not as much of a danger as if it doesn't when needed. Whatever
you think about 'fridges and GFCIs, washers should *always* have
them. Water, ya know.


There is actually no NEC requirement for "washers" to have GFCI
protection.
GFCI protection is governed by the location of the outlet, and or
appliance
manufacturer requirements

I thought any outlet near (within 6'?) service had to be GFCI protected.


Any outlet within 6 feet of a sink needs to be GFCI protected. You don't
necessarily have a sink within 6 feet of a washer

Ah, I thought the water pipe was considered a "sink". It'll certainly
sink
electrons, like one. ;-)


I think that the primary concern with sinks, is small appliances falling
into them. Not likely your washer is going to fall in. In kitchens, the
original GFCI requirement was within six feet of the sink, the code also
restricted the length of kitchen appliance cords, so the idea was that an
appliance with a short cord couldn't reach the sink except if plugged into a
GFCI outlet. As far as the washer is concerned, if the outlet is properly
grounded and the washer has a grounding cord on it, you're safe.

"RBM" wrote
Ah, I thought the water pipe was considered a "sink". It'll certainly
sink
electrons, like one. ;-)


I think that the primary concern with sinks, is small appliances falling
into them. Not likely your washer is going to fall in. In kitchens, the
original GFCI requirement was within six feet of the sink, the code also
restricted the length of kitchen appliance cords, so the idea was that an
appliance with a short cord couldn't reach the sink except if plugged into
a GFCI outlet. As far as the washer is concerned, if the outlet is
properly grounded and the washer has a grounding cord on it, you're safe.

Seems as though one local inspector I'm aware of will still want a GFCI
since it is water and an electric appliance. If you are pulling a permit
it would be smart to ask in advance.

"Ed Pawlowski" wrote in message
...

"RBM" wrote
Ah, I thought the water pipe was considered a "sink". It'll certainly
sink
electrons, like one. ;-)


I think that the primary concern with sinks, is small appliances falling
into them. Not likely your washer is going to fall in. In kitchens, the
original GFCI requirement was within six feet of the sink, the code also
restricted the length of kitchen appliance cords, so the idea was that an
appliance with a short cord couldn't reach the sink except if plugged
into a GFCI outlet. As far as the washer is concerned, if the outlet is
properly grounded and the washer has a grounding cord on it, you're safe.

Seems as though one local inspector I'm aware of will still want a GFCI
since it is water and an electric appliance. If you are pulling a
permit it would be smart to ask in advance.
And depending upon the location of the washer you're making reference to, it
may very well require a GFCI protected outlet by NEC rules as well