I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

Because it's impractical and adds to the expense. Besides that it
wouldn't make a huge difference in the economics of operation seeing
you are not cooling more than 30 cubic feet for a home fridge.

When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers and
freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99 percent of
those have a remote condensing unit.

On Jan 28, 10:54*am, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?


A little more expensive? The cost of the install of a coventional
refrigerator is zero, you just plug it in. I replaced mine last year
with a 23 cft side by side with water and ice at the door. Operating
cost is about $95 a year. How much do you think you're going to save
in operating costs by moving the condenser outside? In many houses
you'd have to run how many feet of refrigerant tubing to get from the
fridge to a suitable location to house the outside unit? Factor in
installation costs (see the other thread here about permitting
requirements for similar installs) a more complex system, more points
of failure, shorter life due to exposure to the elements and you
clearly have a non-starter.

Also, what happens when it's 10 degrees outside? A regular
refrigerator won't operate below a certain ambient temperature because
of issues with the refrigerant and compressor.




Cost, complexity and reliability.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

If my freezer wasn't dumping hot air into the kitchen then for the 6
months it's cold outside I'd just be paying to heat that room by other
means anyway.

Besides, any modern bells-and-whistles replacement would likely be built
in a country with a poor environmental record, shipped halfway around the
world to me, and be built to the same ****ty standards as everything seems
to be these days - such that it has a lifespan better measured in months
rather than decades, and I'd be buying another one quickly, then
another...

blueman wrote in :

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

Because neighbors with a grudge would eat hard boiled eggs and chili, back
their ass up to the intake and let 'er rip.

On Jan 28, 12:54*pm, wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

Cost, complexity and reliability.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Yes: Cool idea. Maybe.If fridges could draw in (and exchange) cool
outside air instead of using electrcity. But some refrigeration and
air controls would still be needed. Not sure the saving would be
significant if at all?

And with existing conventional electric fridges! Within the house all
the electricity used by the fridge ends up as heat. In our cool
Newfoundland climate some heating is needed most months of the year.

So in a house that is electrically heated (as most are these days) the
fridge heat merely replaces that from the electric heaters or other
means used for heating the home.

A fridge is basically an electric motor driving a pump that takes heat
out of the inside of the fridge and pumps it into those coils on the
back of the fridge. It's a heat pump. The motor also wastes some of
it's input (nothing is 100% efficient); it gets a little warm and that
heat stays within the house.

By putting say the coils outside might mean the fridge would run less,
thus saving electricity. But outside during a cold winter would
basically waste that heat outdoors. Warmth that originally leaked into
the fridge from the house and/or every time its door was opened, being
pumped outdoors. Same thing as running an air conditioner except in
this case it's only the fridge interior that is being cooled not a
room!

And since a 300 watt fridge can pump something say of the order of
1000 watts of heat; better IMO in cold weather to keep all the energy
used by the whole system within the house.

In a very hot climate the idea 'might' have some merit, if the cost/
complexity was reasonable? But pumping fridge heat outside into say 30
or 40 Celsius (90 to 110 F) atmosphere (Does it EVER get that warm
here?) outside might mean the fridge would have to run longer; thus
using more electrcity!

Overall the best course might be to have bulk of ones house
underground and utilize any/all sources of energy (mainly electricity
these days) entering it as a source of warmth. One of the bigger
'wasters' at moment being clothes dryers which chuck their warm damp
air outside. But anywhere else in the home that moisture can cause
mould/rot. That's why ventilation (especially attics) is so important.

Have seen a few homes here where there was a cold room built out fom
the basement, say under the front steps that stayed something close to
the temperature of a typical fridge. Useful for beer, potatos etc.

Have seen a few homes here where there was a cold room built out fom
the basement, say under the front steps that stayed something close to
the temperature of a typical fridge. Useful for beer, potatos etc.- Hide quoted text -


I have a 30 pack of beer on my back porch right now. 35 deg F.
I have often thought the OP's question was a good one. Good answers.

On Jan 28, 10:39*am, blueman wrote:
Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Because it would be too difficult to remove dead mice from behind the
fridge.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony
wrote:

[snip]

A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use
electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat
that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold.

Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse
entropy. THAT is what you can't do.

[snip]

Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?


*You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and apartments in
Sweden many, many years ago. In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet
that had a vent pipe to the outside. This made the cabinet cold enough to
keep things fresh, but not frozen. The winters are cold, dark and long
there so these cabinets could be used for many months.

On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

It would be real complex and an expensive instal, it would almost have
to be a frige and exterior wall section sold as a unit, so when its a
certain point above inside room temp outside it wont be as efficent as
the cooler inside air cooling the coil and it would have to know if AC
is on to decide for it self what to do.It would have to computinside,
outside temps, AC on or off, heat on or of, so how does it switch back
and forth to use inside or outside air, and insulate and seal the
opening to withstand winters cold and wind to high R values. It could
be done but a frige would cost thousands and would you ever get a
payback. I could see some custom room frige using outside air in
winter with vents that operate by thermostat, that would cost little.
In alaska the have real efficent friges, the outdoors.

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in
homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder
than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit
from cool if
not frigid external air?

CY: It does make sense, to me. It would be possible to put
the refrig backed up to external wall. Some kind of gasket
around the exterior of the fridge. Draw outdoor air for the
condensor. Winter time, that would provide better cooling.
Summer, to dump the heat outdoors. Window AC do that. Why
not refrigerators?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same
principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside
rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the
evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold
enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

CY: I suspect you mean condensor coils, but I know what you
mean.


Of course, installation might be a little more expensive,
but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this
being done?

CY: Coordination between fridge makers, and home builders,
comes to mind.

It's much less than 99%, but the numbers are signifigant.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


Jeff The Drunk wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500

When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers
and
freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99
percent of
those have a remote condensing unit.

On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

The electrical operating expense of a domestic refrigerator isnt high
enough to justify modding it as you described. If you could find a
suitable way to bring in cold outdoor air into the fridge while
exhausting the fridge interior during winter months, it would save
some money . Im sure someone has tried it at some time in the past.

Jeff The Drunk wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

Because it's impractical and adds to the expense. Besides that it
wouldn't make a huge difference in the economics of operation seeing
you are not cooling more than 30 cubic feet for a home fridge.

A home refrig is really a simple system.


When you consider commercial refrigerators/walk in coolers and
freezers and refrigerated displays in grocery stores, 99 percent of
those have a remote condensing unit.

I heard over 20 years ago that large grocery stores vent the condenser
heat to outside in the summer - the refrigeration does some of the space
cooling. In the winter they capture the heat and blow it back into the
store for space heating.

--
bud--

John Grabowski wrote:
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool
if not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used
to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough)
the draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with
all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?


*You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and
apartments in Sweden many, many years ago. In the kitchens they had
a dedicated cabinet that had a vent pipe to the outside. This made
the cabinet cold enough to keep things fresh, but not frozen. The
winters are cold, dark and long there so these cabinets could be used
for many months.

when i lived in sweden, we kept a lot of the fridge stuff outside, and all
of the freezer stuff.

especially the vodka bottles.

Harry L wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony
wrote:

[snip]

A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use
electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat
that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold.

Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse
entropy. THAT is what you can't do.

Does that sort of mean you can make something cold, but you can't?
Or maybe you just don't know how to yet?

That is a *very* good question!

I would say the answer is that in the past, it has not mattered. Electric
rates have been low in the past and it would have been silly to bother.

But now the electric and energy rates are quite high, so time to think about
these things...

This is something I have thought about and would like to incorporate into my
kitchen design when I remodel it.

Basically it would be with the design of the house, not the refrigerator. I
would place the refrigerator on an outside wall. Perhaps build a
"compartment" for it sort of like a closet. Just the front doors showing
through. Then upper and lower vents on the outside wall so the cold outside
air could circulate around the refrigerator in the winter. And fine mesh
screen over these vents so bugs can't crawl in. Maybe be able to close these
vents if it gets too cold outside so the refrigerator portion will not go
below freezing.

I do have my freezer in the garage and it is quite cold out there in the
winter. It runs very little.

Note that if you have electric heating, it would be pointless to do this.
The heat from the refrigerator would help to heat the house. So in that case
no point in venting it to the outside.

And in the summer it would get tricky. I have not thought about this. But
you could be paying to cool the house. And there might be times when it is
very hot outside. Other times it would be cooler outside. Perhaps use the
cool inside air as an intake for the coils of the refrigerator, but vent the
warm output air to the outside? But if cooler outside at night than in the
house, switch to using outside air.

And use the cool inside air to surround the refrigerator if that is cooler
than outside.


"blueman" wrote in message
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?


We have not seen this because a practical design has not yet been
considered. I'd like to use the 55-degree water from my spring-fed
pond to cool my house during hot summer days, but it is easier just to
get into the pond. If you want an efficent refrigerator, the one
with the thickest insulation is the one to get.

On Jan 28, 9:39*am, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

If you want to take full advantage of freezing temperatures: move
frozen items to outside and use a thermoelectric cooler for the rest.

There are water cooled condensors on the market. It might
not be cost effective to build a system using such. A
commercial refrigeratiron company can build something.

Or, you can run the cold water through automtove radiator,
and use a fan to blow air through the fins. Return the
warmer water to the pond.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Phisherman" wrote in message
...


We have not seen this because a practical design has not yet
been
considered. I'd like to use the 55-degree water from my
spring-fed
pond to cool my house during hot summer days, but it is
easier just to
get into the pond. If you want an efficent refrigerator,
the one
with the thickest insulation is the one to get.

On Fri, 29 Jan 2010 13:40:13 -0500, Tony
wrote:

Harry L wrote:
On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 15:00:05 -0500, Tony
wrote:

[snip]

A refrigerator in a closed environment (in a home) will not only use
electric to keep it cold on the inside, but 100% of it's losses are heat
that is put into the home. You can't make anything cold.

Sure you can. It generates electricity too. You just need to reverse
entropy. THAT is what you can't do.

Does that sort of mean you can make something cold, but you can't?
Or maybe you just don't know how to yet?

The appropriate negentropic universe is at subchronon offset
SC.768564000007 precisely. However very strange things happen when you
run refrigerant lines into that.

BTW, consider that negentropic universes DON'T CARE if you don't know
what "negentropic" means.

On Thu, 28 Jan 2010 10:39:00 -0500, blueman wrote:

I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

IIUC they tried this with air conditioning and it didnt' work.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

All kidding aside, I think you have a very good idea, actually. The
one problem I see is that if the condenser were only outside, in the
hot summer it would be hard and/or electrically-expensive to get it
cold in the fridge. And I don't know an easy way to switch condensers
with the season**. I wonder what they do in areas very north or very
south when it is always or almost always less than 70 degrees outside.
Surely, at polar locations, where fuel must be hard to import, they
don't waste fuel the way fridges do (or do they?) in the USA in the
winter.

The fuel isn't really wasted in that the fridge heats the home. It
does so electrically which is expensive, but in polar outposts, maybe
all heat is electric? I don't know what they use.

**The way around this for home heating cooling is to have the
condensor outside and the furnace inside, but people use heat pumps in
Maryland and areas south of here.

I turn the vent from my clothes dryer to vent outside in the summer
and inside in the winter, but that's a lot simpler than redoing a
condenser connection. (Yes, I know some people here think that causes
humidity problems in the house but it doesnt' for me. Most houses are
dry in the winter and that's why they put humidifiers on furnaces.)

On Jan 29, 3:15*pm, "Bill" wrote:
That is a *very* good question!

I would say the answer is that in the past, it has not mattered. Electric
rates have been low in the past and it would have been silly to bother.

But now the electric and energy rates are quite high, so time to think about
these things...

And I'd say it still matter not a wit. As I previously posted, the
TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and
water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with
electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had?


This is something I have thought about and would like to incorporate into my
kitchen design when I remodel it.

Basically it would be with the design of the house, not the refrigerator. I
would place the refrigerator on an outside wall. Perhaps build a
"compartment" for it sort of like a closet. Just the front doors showing
through. Then upper and lower vents on the outside wall so the cold outside
air could circulate around the refrigerator in the winter. And fine mesh
screen over these vents so bugs can't crawl in. Maybe be able to close these
vents if it gets too cold outside so the refrigerator portion will not go
below freezing.

And I'll bet that by the time it's all done. you'll LOSE money
because:

A - There will be enough leakage of air and energy that more than
offset the gain

B - The incremental cost of installing and maintaining all this
nonsense is more than you gain.

Then whe have little issues like people don't want to design their
kitchen around your idea of where the refrigerator has to go instead
of just putting the fridge where it makes the most sense
ergonomically, just to save $5 a year.





I do have my freezer in the garage and it is quite cold out there in the
winter. It runs very little.

Note that if you have electric heating, it would be pointless to do this.
The heat from the refrigerator would help to heat the house. So in that case
no point in venting it to the outside.

More illogical conclusions. It doesn't matter whether the house is
heated with electric, heat pump, gas or a wood stove. The only issue
is in the grand scheme of things is $5 or $10 a year worth it?




And in the summer it would get tricky. I have not thought about this.

Obviously


But
you could be paying to cool the house. And there might be times when it is
very hot outside. Other times it would be cooler outside. Perhaps use the
cool inside air as an intake for the coils of the refrigerator, but vent the
warm output air to the outside? But if cooler outside at night than in the
house, switch to using outside air.

And use the cool inside air to surround the refrigerator if that is cooler
than outside.



And how much is that whole system going to cost compared to the small
savings? My fridge uses a whopping $95 a year in electricity.

Geez, now I know why Best Buy sells so many extended warranty
contracts.

As I previously posted, the
TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and
water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with
electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had?


My last electric bill for one month was $26!

10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month.

How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add!

There was not any one thing which greatly reduced my electric bill. Rather
*many* things combined which ADD up to that savings.

And this is something people don't understand these days. That small things
add up. Same with spending. Buy a soda pop at a store once a day for $1 and
they say that is just a dollar. (It is actually $365 a year!)

But I assure you large billion dollar corporations know how to add. The guys
who get the big bucks there know how to search for a penny to be saved per
transaction. If the corporation has 300 retail outlets and each retail
outlet has 5,000 transactions per day, and they are saving a penny per
transaction, that is $50 per store per day!

$15,000 for all 300 stores per day!
$5,475,000 per year!
(All from saving a penny!)

It adds up... Learn how to add, you will save quite a bit!

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:44:45 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:

As I previously posted, the
TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and
water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with
electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had?


My last electric bill for one month was $26!

10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month.

How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add!

I'll bite. Give us the figures you added-- or subtracted. What
were your electrical appliances then and how much did they use, and
what are they now & how much do they use?

My bill runs between $200-300 a month, but I'm not complaining. The
convenience it supplies is worth every penny to me.

But tell us what you've done to save so much.

Jim
[BTW- I don't think that $26 would keep you connected to the grid in
my part of the world.]

...tell us what you've done to save so much.


Oh geeze... What haven't I done! This has been an ongoing project over 10
years.

Let's see...
Redesigned a "room full of single pane windows" to fewer windows and
replaced with double pane energy star windows.
Installed insulation.
Replaced all bulbs with CFL's
Replaced all appliances with new energy star appliances.
Installed woodstove.
Rewired doorbell to only use electricity when the button is pressed.

Replaced 3 old window air conditioners with 1 new energy star window air
conditioner (with new windows and insulation - just one keeps house cool
now!)

Installed two 50 gallon water tanks next to woodstove. The heat from the
woodstove gives me hot water in winter! (My electric hot water tank has been
turned off since October.)

Power strips or switches on everything electronic. Turn off when not in use.
And this means almost everything these days. Every single gadget with an
electronic control always uses a small amount of electricity. Blender, HEPA
air filter, coffee maker, phone, fan, you name it!

And of course turn off TV/stereo/playstation/VCR/DVD, etc. Also I have
individual switches on each of these. I only turn on what is needed. Like
just TV and VCR - then playstation, DVD, stereo off. I don't have paid TV as
I like to read books, so no problem turning off the whole works when not in
use. (If you have paid TV, leave the cable box ON!)

Switch to turn off garage door opener when not in use.
Switch off TV antenna amplifier when not in use.

All phones are unplugged from power except answering machine phone. Wired
phones will still work without power.

Switches on rechargers like for cell phone, cordless rechargers, etc. These
are switched off or unplugged when not in use.

Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when
off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you
use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on
24/7!)

Disconnected the clock on the electric range.

For cooking I place pots of water on the woodstove to heat them up. Then
bring to boiling on the electric range. Only a few seconds more of heat to
get to boiling. Then back to woodstove to cook.

If I have a big pot of stew or whatever, I place it outside to cool down
first before I place it in the refrigerator.

Then I bought GFCI receptacles which have one outlet and a switch. I wired
the switch to turn off the GFCI outlet when not being used. Even the GFCI
outlets always use a small amount of electricity.

I have a separate power strip for my computer printer. I turn this off when
not using the printer, but using the computer. (Always uses electricity when
plugged in.)

Everything I do lately is paid for with the money I am saving from my
previous energy saving projects, so it costs me nothing basically to buy
switches, power strips, etc.

And this all started out as a fun challenging project. The electric company
kept raising my rates. So each time I would find a way to lower my bill back
down.

My future projects will be to get hot water in the summer (from the sun) and
solar electricity. My electric use is so small now, the solar electric will
not require very much power.

On parasitic loads...
http://enduse.lbl.gov/info/ACEEE-Leaking.pdf

In article , Bill wrote:

A large number of ways to reduce electricity consumption, including but
not limited to disconnecting from power when-not-in-use the many things
that draw half a watt to a dozen watts when not doing anything,

including:

Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when
off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you
use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on
24/7!)

My microwave clock, including the power supply stuff for the microwave's
control electronics, draws 1 to 2 watts (reads 1 watt on my Kill-A-Watt
meter).

If 2 watts is the case, then it draws 48 watt-hours in a day. That is
20 cents a month or a bit more, almost $2.50 per year, with my electric
rate in suburban Philadelphia. I would switch it off with a power
strip when not in use, except that I like to have that clock on.

Although your other posted material makes sense and I agree with it
including disconnecting those low-power continuously-running loads, I take
issue with the microwave consuming more energy when not being used than it
does when it is being used.

My microwave consumes maybe 48 watt-hours per day when it is not being
used. It consumes a good 1300 watts when it is heating something up at
full power. That amounts to 48 watt-hours in 2 minutes 13 seconds.

On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it
probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it does
when it is.

- Don Klipstein )

"Bill" writes:

...tell us what you've done to save so much.


Oh geeze... What haven't I done! This has been an ongoing project over 10
years.

Let's see...
Redesigned a "room full of single pane windows" to fewer windows and
replaced with double pane energy star windows.
Installed insulation.
Replaced all bulbs with CFL's
Replaced all appliances with new energy star appliances.
Installed woodstove.
Rewired doorbell to only use electricity when the button is pressed.

Replaced 3 old window air conditioners with 1 new energy star window air
conditioner (with new windows and insulation - just one keeps house cool
now!)

Installed two 50 gallon water tanks next to woodstove. The heat from the
woodstove gives me hot water in winter! (My electric hot water tank has been
turned off since October.)

Power strips or switches on everything electronic. Turn off when not in use.
And this means almost everything these days. Every single gadget with an
electronic control always uses a small amount of electricity. Blender, HEPA
air filter, coffee maker, phone, fan, you name it!

And of course turn off TV/stereo/playstation/VCR/DVD, etc. Also I have
individual switches on each of these. I only turn on what is needed. Like
just TV and VCR - then playstation, DVD, stereo off. I don't have paid TV as
I like to read books, so no problem turning off the whole works when not in
use. (If you have paid TV, leave the cable box ON!)

Switch to turn off garage door opener when not in use.
Switch off TV antenna amplifier when not in use.

All phones are unplugged from power except answering machine phone. Wired
phones will still work without power.

Switches on rechargers like for cell phone, cordless rechargers, etc. These
are switched off or unplugged when not in use.

Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when
off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you
use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on
24/7!)

Disconnected the clock on the electric range.

For cooking I place pots of water on the woodstove to heat them up. Then
bring to boiling on the electric range. Only a few seconds more of heat to
get to boiling. Then back to woodstove to cook.

If I have a big pot of stew or whatever, I place it outside to cool down
first before I place it in the refrigerator.

Then I bought GFCI receptacles which have one outlet and a switch. I wired
the switch to turn off the GFCI outlet when not being used. Even the GFCI
outlets always use a small amount of electricity.

I have a separate power strip for my computer printer. I turn this off when
not using the printer, but using the computer. (Always uses electricity when
plugged in.)

Everything I do lately is paid for with the money I am saving from my
previous energy saving projects, so it costs me nothing basically to buy
switches, power strips, etc.

And this all started out as a fun challenging project. The electric company
kept raising my rates. So each time I would find a way to lower my bill back
down.

My future projects will be to get hot water in the summer (from the sun) and
solar electricity. My electric use is so small now, the solar electric will
not require very much power.

On parasitic loads...
http://enduse.lbl.gov/info/ACEEE-Leaking.pdf

Very interesting list...
- Some are useful and significant to all (like turning off printers or
using Energy Star appliances)
- Others are more about general energy saving than just electricity for
those of us who heat our house or water with gas or oil (such as
insulation)
- Some may save power but there is a big trade-off in convenience like
switching pot from wood stove to electric stove -- or even the whole
bother of maintaining a wood stove vs. running a clean, efficient gas
furnace. Also, I think many of us just value our time more than
turning off every single last wall-wart.
- And some I think save such trivial amounts of electricity that you
will never payback the cost of the switch let alone the cost of your
time and the hassle factor -- shutting off a GFCI comes to mind as an
example.

Not criticizing what you have done -- and it sounds like you enjoy the
challenge. Just saying that some of the things you have done are either
not relevant, not practical, not significant, or not worth the hassle to
the average Joe...

On Jan 28, 10:39*am, blueman wrote:
Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

The "beer fridge" at my parents' house is "designed" to do just
that... It's out in the unheated wood shed. It barely, if ever runs,
from November to April, and during the warm months it contributes
nothing to the cooling load of the house.

It's not real convenient to keep food in there, though. Need an egg?
You gotta walk clear across the house and out the back door to get
from the kitchen to the fridge.

On Jan 28, 5:30*pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

*You reminded me of something that I saw in several homes and apartments in
Sweden many, many years ago. *In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet
that had a vent pipe to the outside. *This made the cabinet cold enough to
keep things fresh, but not frozen. *The winters are cold, dark and long
there so these cabinets could be used for many months.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

"In Sweden...In the kitchens they had a dedicated cabinet that had
a vent pipe to the outside."

When I was in the Coast Guard and stationed in Alaska, the windows in
our sleeping quarters were sealed shut, but there were 3 or 4 holes in
the bottom of the wooden sashes. The holes were filled with corks that
could be removed for fresh air.

I (as well as many others) removed the corks and screwed a styrofoam
lined wooden box to the window sill. The box had a hinged door and was
big enough room to hold a six-pack of your favorite beverage.

I used to enjoy the Miller nips (7-oz bottles). On the coldest days, I
could come back to my room, put a couple of warm beers in the box and
by the time I had washed up and changed into my civvies, the beers
would be ice cold.

You had to be careful...you could freeze a 12 oz can in under 10
minutes on some days.

On Sun, 31 Jan 2010 10:44:45 -0800, "Bill"
wrote:

As I previously posted, the
TOTAL annual electric usage of a new 23 cft refrigerator, with ice and
water at the door is around $95. And that's here in NJ, with
electricity around 17c KWH. So, where is the big savings to be had?


My last electric bill for one month was $26!

10 years ago my electric bill was $150 a month.

How did I reduce my electric bill? I know how to add!

There was not any one thing which greatly reduced my electric bill. Rather
*many* things combined which ADD up to that savings.

And this is something people don't understand these days. That small things
add up. Same with spending. Buy a soda pop at a store once a day for $1 and
they say that is just a dollar. (It is actually $365 a year!)

But I assure you large billion dollar corporations know how to add. The guys
who get the big bucks there know how to search for a penny to be saved per
transaction. If the corporation has 300 retail outlets and each retail
outlet has 5,000 transactions per day, and they are saving a penny per
transaction, that is $50 per store per day!

$15,000 for all 300 stores per day!
$5,475,000 per year!
(All from saving a penny!)

It adds up... Learn how to add, you will save quite a bit!



My city sells electricity. The problem with it is the kilowatt hours
costs $80 but the total bill is over $150. Over time, the city
decided to include water usage in the bill. Then based on the water
usage you got a sewer charge added, about double that of the water
bill (I know you can water the lawn and not use the sewer, but that
doesn't count). Last year they decided in lew of higher property
taxes they added the garbage collection to the bill, whether you put
out garbage or not. Having one bill is convenient, but these local
politicians are thinking all day long how to add another charge. Now
can anyone explain my land-line phone bill?

On Jan 31, 10:39*pm, (Don Klipstein) wrote:
In article , Bill wrote:

A large number of ways to reduce electricity consumption, including but
not limited to disconnecting from power when-not-in-use the many things
that draw half a watt to a dozen watts when not doing anything,

including:

Switch for microwave. Off when not in use. (These use more electricity when
off than on. The clock is always on and this uses more electricity than you
use to periodically heat something up. It adds up to leave something on
24/7!)

* My microwave clock, including the power supply stuff for the microwave's
control electronics, draws 1 to 2 watts (reads 1 watt on my Kill-A-Watt
meter).

* If 2 watts is the case, then it draws 48 watt-hours in a day. *That is
20 cents a month or a bit more, almost $2.50 per year, with my electric
rate in suburban Philadelphia. *I would switch it off with a power
strip when not in use, except that I like to have that clock on.

* Although your other posted material makes sense and I agree with it
including disconnecting those low-power continuously-running loads, I take
issue with the microwave consuming more energy when not being used than it
does when it is being used.

* My microwave consumes maybe 48 watt-hours per day when it is not being
used. *It consumes a good 1300 watts when it is heating something up at
full power. *That amounts to 48 watt-hours in 2 minutes 13 seconds.

* On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it
probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it does
when it is.

*- Don Klipstein )

"On the other hand, if I did not powerstrip-switch my printer, it
probably would consume more energy when it is not being used than it
does when it is."

I question this in 2 ways:

1 - From a power saving perspective, I wonder how much power the
printer uses when it runs through it's POST vs. it's total usage when
idle. When my printer powers on, it calibrates the printhead, using
it's blue-light sighting device and moving the printhead around within
the unit for a few seconds.It also runs through other tests which must
consume power - unless the LCD screen is lying to me. Granted, extra
long idle times might use more power than the POST, but the power used
during the POST has to factored into the equation. In additon, my
printer also goes into a PowerSave mode after an idle period. It does
not run through the full POST when woken up with a print job.

2 - From a strictly convenience perspective, this would be a pain in
my as...errr....house. We have a single All-In-One printer/scanner/
copier networked for the 3 computers in my house. To power it down
when not in use would mean a trip to the printer from the far end of
the house when any of the users wanted to print. First the error
message that the printer wasn't available, then a trip to the printer
to turn it on, back to the computer to click OK and back to the
printer to collect the printout and turn the printer off, assuming
it's not going to be used again soon. If there's any thought that it
might be used again, then it would be left on and the user would have
to remember to make another trip to the printer to turn it off
eventually.

Wait, maybe that's not a bad idea. The extra walking would be healthy
for us plus keep us warm so we could turn the heat down. ;-)

On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

all of the responses I've read make the assumption we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon. the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator feels like the range has been left on. simply venting this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't seem too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs. all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings.

On 7/6/15 12:12 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one... Refrigerators are one of
the top energy consumers in homes. In Northern climates, the
outside temperature is colder than indoor temperature at least 6
months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from
cool if not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle
used to vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside
rather than loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough)
the draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with
all the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being
done?

all of the responses I've read make the assumption we have A/C. my
house doesn't. I live in Oregon. the few weeks when it gets very
hot the refrigerator feels like the range has been left on. simply
venting this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't seem
too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan if needed and have it
turn on when the refr runs. all of this is a comfort issue, not $
savings.


If your house it too hot because it's hot outside, turning on a vent fan
will bring in hot air, any way it can get in.

You can probably get a Kill-o-watt digital meter for under $20. It will
tell you how much electricity your refrigerator uses. Mine averages 50
watts or 36kwh a month. If yours uses much more, you could be a little
cooler by replacing it.

Move ur fridge to the garage during the hot weather. I can see how that
might benefit most of us in more ways than just keeping the kitchen a
bit cooler.

On Sun, 5 Jul 2015 21:12:01 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

all of the responses I've read make the assumption we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon. the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator feels like the range has been left on. simply venting this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't seem too difficult.

JB is right, if you vent air out of the house, it will have to be
replaced by other air, warm air from outside the house. If you used
the same air, sucked in air from outside just to cool the coils, it
would not cool the coils as well, because it woudl be hotter than the
air iln the rest of your house** So you'd need more air, that is a
faster fan.

** (My house at least is much cooler than outside on the first floor.
Tnat's not always true on the seocnd floor)

You'd have to have the coils that are on the back of the fridge outside
the house instead.

I could add a bathroom vent fan if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs. all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings.

When I had AC, I only used it 20 or 30 days a year, in Baltimore, but
even when I wasn't using it, I never noticed heat coming from the
fridge. Now that my AC is broken for the last 2 years or so, I still
don't noticed any heat. Admittedly, the coils are in the back and the
heat from them gradually spreads into the rest of the kitchen, but I
think what really makes the difference is that I don't open the fridge
door very much. If the door isn't opened, like for 8 hours every night,
I'll bet the thing hardly runs at all.

Again, there's only one of me, but otoh some people just open the door
and stare at the food for a while.

ahh, another old thread, this one is from 2010.

lets hope the same google groups IT techs arent put in charge of google self driving vehicles

On 7/6/2015 12:12 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

all of the responses I've read make the assumption
we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon.
the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator
feels like the range has been left on. simply venting
this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't
seem too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan
if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs.
all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings.


Doing the outside air thing makes sense. But it would
need coordination between the builders, the HVAC folks,
and the refrigerator designers.

BTW, the coils which get hot are condenser coils, the
cold ones are evaporator. If you put the evaporator
coils outdoors, the food would be warm.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
.. www.lds.org
..
..

On Monday, July 6, 2015 at 8:57:27 AM UTC-4, Stormin Mormon wrote:
On 7/6/2015 12:12 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, January 28, 2010 at 7:39:00 AM UTC-8, blueman wrote:
I have always wondered about this one...
Refrigerators are one of the top energy consumers in homes.
In Northern climates, the outside temperature is colder than indoor
temperature at least 6 months of the year.

Why aren't they designed with "heat" exchangers to benefit from cool if
not frigid external air?

Even in warm climates (or summers) why isn't the same principle used to
vent the warm air from the compressor & coils outside rather than
loading the AC?

Presumably this could all be done by putting the evaporator coils
outside which would in turn decrease (or eliminate if cold enough) the
draw on the compressor during winter months.

Of course, installation might be a little more expensive, but with all
the focus on green-this and green-that why isn't this being done?

all of the responses I've read make the assumption
we have A/C. my house doesn't. I live in Oregon.
the few weeks when it gets very hot the refrigerator
feels like the range has been left on. simply venting
this hot air out thru the roof or exterior wall doesn't
seem too difficult. I could add a bathroom vent fan
if needed and have it turn on when the refr runs.
all of this is a comfort issue, not $ savings.


Doing the outside air thing makes sense. But it would
need coordination between the builders, the HVAC folks,
and the refrigerator designers.

BTW, the coils which get hot are condenser coils, the
cold ones are evaporator. If you put the evaporator
coils outdoors, the food would be warm.

--
.
Christopher A. Young
learn more about Jesus
. www.lds.org
.
.

one could probably have a heat echanger outside, run pex to the kitchen attach somehow the condensor coils to say copper line then pump the water of antifreeze from outside thru the coils attached to the fridges heat exchanger.

its a interesting thought