Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


  #2   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 262
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA



it's different in different parts of the country. call up and ask your local
inspector; they would know what is happening in your area.


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8,803
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using
1/2 or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems odd
that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and
then wimp out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.


It depends on the content of your natural gas. The inspector's office told me
copper was OK now here in Seattle, FWIW. If you are concerned, talk to the
inspector locally, or your gas supplier.



  #4   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,417
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Nov 3, 9:51*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl -

I'm *doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. *Is this accurate? *Is this a recent discovery? *Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? *Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


Call your natural gas supplier. I got a lot of good info when I added
a concrete porch onto the back of my house. The project interfered
with the planned installation of a gas line to a fireplace that was
surround on three sides by the patio. BTW the last few feet of my
fireplace installation is with soft Cu tubing, so is my gas water
heater and furnace . The installation was done by the gas Co so I am
assuming it is OK for short terminating lengths. The opinion of your
gas Co may be different.

Jimmie
  #5   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,227
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Nov 3, 6:51*am, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
Awl -

I'm *doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. *Is this accurate? *Is this a recent discovery? *Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? *Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


EA-

A study by SoCal gas but no firm conclusions

http://www.copper.org/applications/f...nal_report.pdf


and a safety brochure by another gas utlitiy

www.ameren.com/AboutUs/ADC_NaturalGasSafety.pdf

it appears that corrosion in copper caused by nat gas use may or may
not be a serious problem BUT the consensus appears to be that flared
connections are WAY more susceptible to corrosion & failure than
compression fittings

I would not use not recommend the use of copper flared fittings, I
might even go as far as removing existing flared connections.
I would definitively replace uncoated brass or copper flex lines that
service appliances with coated flex lines or SS flex lines.
I would only use back pipe or CSST tube for new work or remodel work.

Gas lines, like water lines, only need to be sized large enough to
supply the appliances served or future possible demand. A 3/4" black
pipe, depending on the run length, can deliver xx btu/hr. The short
supply line serving only the oven may be just fine for the oven
demand, with the 3/4" line acting as the "main". I have a 3/4" line
running from the meter to the kitchen...about 50'. The furnace and the
water heater are served by the same 1/2" pipe (less than 6') off the
3/4" line. The stove and a 5 ton gas A/C were served off the
continuation of the 3/4". The A/C was retired a while ago.

btw the smelly additive (mercaptan?) is added in minute amounts to
give the nature gas a consistent & recognizable smell and is supposed
to be safe, probably way safer than un-smelly gas. Sulfur does
exist naturally in natural gas mainly as H2S but the gas utilities
remove it and add the other smelly stuff. Natural gas with high
amounts of H2S in being referred to as "sour gas", those high amounts
are only 4ppm & higher. Total sulfur content is controlled as part of
their QC process.

hth

cheers
Bob


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:18:22 -0700, "charlie"
wrote:


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA



it's different in different parts of the country. call up and ask your local
inspector; they would know what is happening in your area.

LOTS of soft copper used for both Propane and natural gas, but the new
stainless steel flex line appears to be the "now" thing.
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,668
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:55:30 -0500, clare wrote:
LOTS of soft copper used for both Propane


Yeah - I've said it before, but I was surprised when I uncovered* my
propane line and it was 6" down at best and just soft copper - I'd
expected something better, or even double-walled, and buried a lot deeper.

* intentionally, having called the propane company and had the site marked
out, before anyone wonders ;-)


  #8   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,761
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

Existential Angst wrote:
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia


If I remember correctly you can't use galvanized pipe for
natural gas but I've never heard of any problems with copper
pipe and natural gas or propane here in the Southeast. The
only thing I know that you can't use copper pipe with is
ammonia refrigeration systems.

TDD
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,500
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Nov 3, 8:28*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Existential Angst wrote:
Awl -


I'm *doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.


I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. *Is this accurate? *Is this a recent discovery? *Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.


Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? *Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.


tia


If I remember correctly you can't use galvanized pipe for
natural gas


In many places in the US, galvanized pipe is now OK. Just like the
discussion with copper there was concern that with some types of nat
gas galvanized could flake off and then clog orifices. But it does
vary from area to area.







but I've never heard of any problems with copper
pipe and natural gas or propane here in the Southeast. The
only thing I know that you can't use copper pipe with is
ammonia refrigeration systems.

TDD- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


  #10   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 209
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been run
on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas, the city
refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used for the gas
lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and he pointed out
to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the tubing had a certain
manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember). I had to call the
manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper I could find that
code and then point it and the code regulations out to the inspector from
the city and then it was approved. As I remember it, the copper had to be a
certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from forming from the natural gas.

Tom G.




  #11   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

"Tom G" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2
or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery?
Seems odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and
then wimp out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been run
on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas, the
city refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used for the
gas lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and he
pointed out to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the tubing
had a certain manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember). I had
to call the manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper I could
find that code and then point it and the code regulations out to the
inspector from the city and then it was approved. As I remember it, the
copper had to be a certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from forming
from the natural gas.


That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
mentioned it.
Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because only
a few places make this distinction.
Your contractor seems like he was on the ball!

What kind of tubing did you wind up using? Special tubing? Flexible or
rigid?
--
EA





Tom G.



  #12   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 903
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Tue, 3 Nov 2009 09:51:02 -0500, "Existential Angst"
wrote:

Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using 1/2 or
5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery? Seems
odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and then wimp
out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia

A quote:

Natural gas in copper pipe over some period of years causes copper
sulfites which clogged up the pipe with hard, black crystallizations.
  #13   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 209
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?


"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
"Tom G" wrote in message
...

"Existential Angst" wrote in message
...
Awl -

I'm doing some demo on my 50's kitchen, which was done pretty well,
overall -- 3/4 black pipe to a 6 burner stove, etc.
Except, they tee'd off underneath for the gas line to the oven, using
1/2 or 5/8" copper, flare fitting.

I've been told copper gets brittle with natural gas, and is therefore
against many codes. Is this accurate? Is this a recent discovery?
Seems odd that the original installers would use 3/4" black pipe, and
then wimp out at the end.

Are there similar restrictions with copper and propane? Other gases?
If this restriction is only with nat gas, I assume it's because of the
sulfer additive (smell) that reacts with the copper.

tia
--
EA


When I moved a park model mobile home from Wisconsin where it had been
run on propane to Mesa, AZ where it was to be hooked up to natural gas,
the city refused to allow the hook up due to copper tubing being used
for the gas lines. My contractor said he thought the city was wrong and
he pointed out to them that their codes allowed copper tubing if the
tubing had a certain manufacturing code letter (which I don't remember).
I had to call the manufacturer back East to find out where on the copper
I could find that code and then point it and the code regulations out to
the inspector from the city and then it was approved. As I remember it,
the copper had to be a certain alloy to prevent pinhole leaks from
forming from the natural gas.


That's sort of what I remember -- esp. the pinhole leaks, now that you
mentioned it.
Most of the replies here don't seem to be aware of this, mebbe because
only a few places make this distinction.
Your contractor seems like he was on the ball!

What kind of tubing did you wind up using? Special tubing? Flexible or
rigid?
--
EA


Just stuck with the existing flexible copper tubing because it had the
proper letter code to meet code, in the end.
It hadn't made sense to me that the manufacturer would have installed
flexible copper tubing that couldn't be used with natural gas and propane as
they wouldn't have know what the gas source in the field would have been.
Tom G.





  #14   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 903
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?


A quote:

Natural gas in copper pipe over some period of years causes copper
sulfites which clogged up the pipe with hard, black crystallizations.


It also appears that the sulfur added to the natural gas is corrosive
to copper.
  #16   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,526
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

I've seen mostly copper inside buildings and have never had a problem
(about 800 locations).

But IIRC copper is anodic to steel, so if the two are connected the
steel pipe should sacrifice itself to protect the copper. If they
were outside or underground I would guess there could be a problem.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 539
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

"TimR" wrote in message
...
I've seen mostly copper inside buildings and have never had a problem
(about 800 locations).

But IIRC copper is anodic to steel, so if the two are connected the
steel pipe should sacrifice itself to protect the copper. If they
were outside or underground I would guess there could be a problem.


Magnesium, Al, Zn strips would help protect the steel and copper. Magnesium
stakes are sold for this purpose, and anodic aluminum is found in water
heaters -- altho alum is proly not very effective after its own oxidized
film occurs.

Copper outside form a protective oxide, like alum -- that green patina. So
copper should be stable outside as well.
--
EA


  #19   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,526
Default Copper tubing and natural gas?

On Nov 4, 11:22*pm, "Existential Angst"
wrote:
"TimR" wrote in message

...

I've seen mostly copper inside buildings and have never had a problem
(about 800 locations).


But IIRC copper is anodic to steel, so if the two are connected the
steel pipe should sacrifice itself to protect the copper. *If they
were outside or underground I would guess there could be a problem.


Magnesium, Al, Zn strips would help protect the steel and copper. *Magnesium
stakes are sold for this purpose, and anodic aluminum is found in water
heaters -- altho alum is proly not very effective after its own oxidized
film occurs.

Copper outside form a protective oxide, like alum -- that green patina. *So
copper should be stable outside as well.
--
EA


You don't need to protect the "steel AND copper." The copper is
protected fine by the steel! Nor does the oxidized film have anything
to do with it.

If steel, ductile iron, etc., is connected to copper, you have a
battery. If they are connected again through soil or any other
electrolyte, you have a circuit. Electrons will flow through the
direct connection, ions will flow through the electrolyte connection.
The ferrous metal will corrode while the copper will be protected.

If you look closely at outdoor connections you should see use of
dielectric (insulating) components between valves, meters, etc. to
break this connection. Copper grounding systems inadvertently
connected to natural gas pipes can be a major problem.
Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Alternative to copper tubing for lpg Jeff Dieterle[_2_] Home Repair 19 April 9th 08 06:03 PM
Natural Gas - Pictures and Diagrams of Natural Gas, Natural Gas Furnace, Natural Gas Grill, Natural Gas Heater, Natural Gas Water Heater and Natural Gas Vehicle [email protected] Home Ownership 3 June 18th 07 07:34 AM
Natural Gas - Pictures and Diagrams of Natural Gas, Natural Gas Furnace, Natural Gas Grill, Natural Gas Heater, Natural Gas Water Heater and Natural Gas Vehicle [email protected] Home Repair 1 June 18th 07 06:32 AM
A Copper Tubing Primer, Please Home Repair 0 September 16th 06 03:55 AM
A Copper Tubing Primer, Please Sacramento Dave Home Repair 0 September 16th 06 12:06 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:18 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"