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#81
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
This is veering away from the original question a little, but -- This
time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will be in the 40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know lot of people who turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early afternoon they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and tolerate being a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning, the house would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the day, and just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun will go down and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO energy where the others have used both heat and a/c. No replies to the question about wives turning the stat all the way up/down so the heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think that. My ex certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to explain it to her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind of thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing. Larry |
#82
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
A couple weeks ago, one of the guys at church mentioned to
me that it's cold in the primary (kids) room. Sure enough, about 65F. He'd gone in the mechanical room, and turned the thermostat up a couple degrees. Which didn't help much, cause the furnace had flamed out. I managed to get it to restart, and then the kids had heat again. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "jeff_wisnia" wrote in message eonecommunications... Poll question: How many guys here have wives who mistakenly think that when warming up a cooled down house the rate of temperature increase of a typical home heating system will be faster if they shove the thermostat setting all the way up to 90F than if they just move it to the appropriate setpoint. Then of course they forget to reset it when the place reaches a comfortable temperature and wait for the man of the house to snarl, "Why the hell is it so damn hot in here?" And visa versa for A/C of course. It can't just only happen to me. G Jeff PS, I realize there may be some HVAC systems which don't conform to the above scenario, but they sure aren't in the majority around here. -- Jeffry Wisnia (W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE) The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight. |
#83
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
They would be different, in that boilers recover much more
slowly. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "RickH" wrote in message news:2e779c01-e006-478d-8376- Is this for forced air furnace or boiler? |
#84
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
I'm not sure the Russian education is any better. Might be,
I've never been there. I've seen some reports and video clips that they have a massive problem, with alcohol and homeless kids. Much more so than USA. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "terry" wrote in message ... The whole question and some of the answers, demonstrates the generally poor knowledge of basic physics. Maybe that's our education system? No wonder the Russians got a satellite into space first? .. Obviuosly if the temperature of the inside of a house is lower there will be less heat lost to outside. Because that's where it goes folks! From inside the house to outside. Higher winds also help to conduct it away. If one left the house for a solid month with the heat turned to minimum (or off, provided nothing froze up!) less heat would be used. Whereas if the house is fully occupied heat turned to normal and with doors opening and closing more heat will be lost to outside; all a function of the temperature difference between outside and inside, depending on your insulation and air exchanger, vents etc. Where it gets confusing for some is that with the thermostat set lower the whole interior of the house, walls, flooring, furniture, appliances, books etc. etc. cool down to that lower interior house temperature and it takes time and extra heat to bring them back up whatever the occupants wants, after they get home. But the' extra' heat is required only for so long as it takes for the house temperature to 'catch up'. It depends on the thermal mass of the house interior and it's contents. If one has a house constructed of masonry or brick and/or with concrete floors/slab it will take longer to bring temperature back up. A well insulated wood frame maybe less? Conversely the next time the occupant leaves and turns the temperature down less (or no) heating will be required as the house structure/ contents cool down. It will be nice and comfortable; with 'no one' there, for quite a while. Later the occupants return and will find the house chilly and that it will take several hours for the house and it contents to warm up again! By the way. Lot of people confuse 'heat' (or absence of heat) with 'temperature', right? Trying to explain to my neighbour that if we had three identical blocks of material outside in the cold, (or even on a regular cool day) one of concrete, one of metal and one of wood. They would all be at the same temperature. But if/when he picked them up the metal would 'feel' colder than the wood. BECAUSE it would conduct HEAT away from his hand more quickly than the others. Even though all are at the same TEMPERATURE. Have fun. |
#85
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Some pets have fur coats....
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "cshenk" wrote in message ... My heat is mostly gas. It costs the same no matter what hour it's used at, so reducing the temp for 8 hours at night when under blankets, can save a bit. Not much (might have been 2-3%) and we don't do it now because of the pets, but we used to when pet free. |
#86
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
That's the wild card, is the price of various types of heat.
My home is natural gas, with no electric emergency heat. I hadn't thought of that. I did ask about energy, but the different prices is a very important thought. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Tony" wrote in message ... In most applications it saves energy to turn it down. However if you have a heat pump, and to get the house warmed up again it goes to emergency heat, then it can cost more. If you can turn off the emergency heat and wait a long time for the heat pump to catch up, then you will save energy. The worst case is electric emergency heat, gas emergency heat may or may not save money depending on the price and efficiency of the furnace. Although it just occurred to me that you asked about conserving *energy* and not *money* so that may mean that no mater what your heating system is, turning it down then up again will always save *energy*... I think? |
#87
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of
humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems often do take a LONG time to recover temp. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "mm" wrote in message ... Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers, only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the thermostat once and leave it there. Why did you assume the Mormon had a boiler? The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air heated buildings. In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant heated building you heat the building materials and that in turn heats the people. When you lose all that stored energy it costs a fortune to recover it back in boiler usage. It costs that same fortune and more to keep it hot without interruption. Maybe it's also unpleasant becuase it takes hours to heat up, but that's another story. |
#88
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
The energy you buy is the same energy as what's lost. Cold
house loses less heat. The recovery swing is a lot less heat than keeping the house warm. * It may take a long time, which is unacceptable * It may cause your heat pump to go into emergency heat, which is more expensive -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "RickH" wrote in message news:1ffa4de9-ce5a-44d9-91a7- Yes, you save energy turning it down. In balance less heat is lost. What happens when he comes home and turns it back up again? The reverse, so where is the savings? |
#89
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
But, President Carter has asked us all to conserve, wear
sweatters, and so on. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Van Chocstraw" wrote in message ... I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and wood. Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze my ****ing ass off. |
#90
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
I don't have a pipe, and that nonsense wouldn't light, in
any case. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Van Chocstraw" wrote in message ... Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes an hour to cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it takes twice as much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than if you had left it alone. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. |
#91
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:13:41 -0500, Red Green wrote:
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcc1f8 : Please forgive me while I troll for a moment..... Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view after the argument is underway. How did I know this post would have a large amount of replies just by the subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would range from Yes to No with everything in between? Yeah, I figured the same :-) So far there doesn't seem to be too much arguing. Personal view: depends on the system type and the period of turning it down. Anything with a lot of inertia, like slab heat, is best left alone unless the period's very long. Something like forced air seems to recover quickly (we turn our 'stat down to 60 overnight and it takes 3 or 4 mins of burn to get things back up to temp in the morning. The electric baseboards take a little longer, but not too much) cheers Jules |
#92
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Red Green" wrote in message ... How did I know this post would have a large amount of replies just by the subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would range from Yes to No with everything in between? Luck I guess :-) |
#93
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Well, sad to hear that you live in an over regulated part of
the world. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Tony Hwang" wrote in message ... Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire places are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP. |
#94
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
I've had those kind of days. I call em "double ended" days.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message ... This is veering away from the original question a little, but -- This time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will be in the 40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know lot of people who turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early afternoon they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and tolerate being a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning, the house would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the day, and just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun will go down and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO energy where the others have used both heat and a/c. |
#95
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message ... No replies to the question about wives turning the stat all the way up/down so the heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think that. My ex certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to explain it to her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind of thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing. Larry |
#96
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:20:32 -0400, mm wrote:
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:53:18 -0400, jeff_wisnia wrote: Poll question: How many guys here have wives who mistakenly think that when warming up a cooled down house the rate of temperature increase of a typical home heating system will be faster if they shove the thermostat setting all the way up to 90F than if they just move it to the appropriate setpoint. No it won't, but what about when boiling water. Shouldn't the temp be all the way up when one is in a hurry? Even though on my electric stove with a medium sized pot of water, water will continue to boil when the knob is at 6 out of 10. I think with most electric stoves the temperature of the heating element is directly proportional to the dial setting (regardless of whether the stove's altering the resistance of the system or cycling power on and off like a furnace) - there's not necessarily any feedback from the heating element to the controller via a thermostat. So for a stove, yes giving it full power until it boils and then turning it down to maintain boiling *is* quicker than just boiling it at the lower setting (unless you're using coated pans, because you'll kill the non-stick coating by giving them full power :-) Now, a thermostat-controlled system is a different matter... 1) Is the heating device capable of variable heat according to demand? Most aren't - but I'm sure there are some furnaces out there (for example) that can switch in extra burners and produce a hotter output if the difference between current temperature and 'desired temperature' (as set by the 'stat) is great - in those cases turning the stat up to 11 might actually make a difference :-) 2) The dynamics of the system if there's just one 'stat (and the system design's poor) might be tricky - the area with the 'stat in might reach desired temperature before the rest of the building feels warm, so turning the thermostat way up could result in a situation where the rooms that the people are actually in feel warmer sooner than they would if the thermostat were just set to desired temp (and the room with the stat in will end up feeling too hot until the temperature of the whole building evens out) In other words, it's not quite clear-cut I think... cheers Jules |
#97
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote: I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster. -- To find that place where the rats don't race and the phones don't ring at all. If once, you've slept on an island. Scott Kirby "If once you've slept on an island" |
#98
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems often do take a LONG time to recover temp. I usually think, forced hot air. Boiler, I don't know but imagine water in tank would keep fairly hot if not circulated. Thermodynamically, turning temperature down saves energy. |
#99
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
You are so, so right. Thanks for a smile.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Kurt Ullman" wrote in message ... I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster. -- To find that place where the rats don't race and the phones don't ring at all. If once, you've slept on an island. Scott Kirby "If once you've slept on an island" |
#100
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Oh, I dunno. The carbon that made natural gas came out of
the environment. Some time back, but even so. If you raise the carbon dioxide, the plants thrive, and the system balances itself down again. The planet is self adjusting. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .. "Van Chocstraw" wrote in message ... FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not. WOod is carbon neutral. |
#101
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 30, 8:24*am, Jules . Anything with a lot of inertia, like slab
heat, is best left alone unless the period's very long. Does that necessarily follow? Anything with a lot of inertia will cool off much more slowly too. So you don't have nearly as far to recover when you raise the temp again. Maybe that part of the question should be rephrased as a time constant. Drop the temperature by 10 degrees. There will be a transient period while the temperature is falling. Then there will be a steady state period while the lower temperature is maintained. And another transient period while the upper temperature is reestablished. Clearly energy use is lower during the first transient period, as in zero. Clearly energy use is lower during the steady state period due to the lower temperature setting. Not so clearly energy use is higher during the second transient period, your heat will not cycle until the new steady state is reached. If lower steady state is never reached because the setback is for too short a time, then it seems logical that energy use during transient periods would average to 50% duty cycle. But this isn't necessarily true, because the time periods may not be equal. Loss of heat to the environment is not at the same rate as gain of heat from the furnace. |
#102
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Well, sad to hear that you live in an over regulated part of the world. No, It is not regulation. Collective logical common sense. |
#103
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
Van Chocstraw wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote: Van Chocstraw wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Van Chocstraw wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: Please forgive me while I troll for a moment..... Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view after the argument is underway. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone. Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the outside. So....use your little noggin. Wow, Where are you coming from? The lower the setting the longer the setting. You save energy. I am talking about how much saving. Just it saves. Our 'stat is set to 17C from midnight. Back up to 20C at 7 in the morning. It does make a difference. Now our NG price is 3.80 per GigaJoule. Electricity is 7 cents/KWh I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and wood. Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze my ****ing ass off. Hmm, So you are a polluter. Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire places are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP. One who lives in past century! 80 degrees? You must have some kind of medical condition. Or are running around naked in the house? FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not. WOod is carbon neutr So how many trees have you planted in your life time? Even spent a time in forestry camp in your younger days planting seedlings? Very hard work. |
#104
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
... I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? I think those are the same people who think that by creeping forward at a red light, they can intimidate it into changing to green faster. Eric Law |
#105
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
... In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster. Known, thanks to comedian Rich Hall, as "elacceleration". ;^) Eric Law |
#106
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 29, 8:51*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:05*am, RickH wrote: On Oct 29, 10:36*am, "SteveB" wrote: No, it takes too long to re-heat the boiler and all the water in the pipes, radiators, and floor tubing. *It is always best to set it once and leave it there all winter. *Too much energy is lost when all that water is asked to re-heat all the surfaces again. *For example when I feel the return manifold from the coils under my concrete slab after the slab was allowed to cool, the return water is ice cold, all that energy to reheat the slab. *No, bad asvice, best to keep it warm and leave it there, saves tons of energy. We use warm water here to shower. *I'd say that a higher % of people use heat pumps or gas to heat rather than water. *In your case, MAYBE it is cheaper to leave it on, but I think you are only quoting yourself, and no analytic studies by any testing agency. *Can you find any said studies? *I don't doubt that you believe what you say is true, I just think that it is not. Steve Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers, only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the thermostat once and leave it there. The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air heated buildings. In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant heated building you heat the building materials and that in turn heats the people. *When you lose all that stored energy it costs a fortune to recover it back in boiler usage. *There is nothing quite like the warmth of a radiant-heated house. So the laws of themodynamics are different from system to system? Heat its lost to the environment based on the difference in temperature between the heated space & the unheated space. * As the temperature of the heated space falls, the heat loss also fails. *When the temperature of the heated space falls to that of the unheated space, heat loss stops. I believe you are confusing the "time" it takes to recover with "huge amounts of energy are required to re-heat everything". If you were correct in your thinking (& oyu are not) the whole concept of temperature setback would not work (& it does). cheers Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If left alone the boiler kicks on maybe once every 4-6 hours for only a short 5-10 minute period (maybe 4 or 5 recyclings of the entire water load). If you let the house cool for 10 hours while at work, the boiler will have to run several hours to get all the floors (and house contents) heated again. This run is more than the sum amount of time the boiler would have been fired if you had just left it alone. You've never lived with a boiler have you? Air is low mass, it heats up very quickly, radiant heating of the building mass itself takes longer from the same starting temp as the air entering a forced-air system. Yes, the "rules" are different for forced-air vs under-floor radiant heat, in practice, but not the laws of thermodynamics are not. |
#107
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 30, 7:24*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or how to change a light bulb. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Red Green" wrote in message ... How did I know this post would have a large amount of replies just by the subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would range from Yes to No with everything in between? Luck I guess :-) TP must unroll from the topside of the roll (so loose end hangs away from the wall). This way pulling the paper up lessens the friction imposed between the roll core and the dispenser hub allowing less- restrictive unrolling. Additionally having the paper hang away from wall, lessens the occurence of fingerprints (and finger nail scratches) on the wall itself caused by people scratching against said wall to find the roll end. Additionally there is better visibility of the roll top as opposed to the roll bottom in finding the paper end in a visual manner (as opposed to a "by feel" manner). This is a well-known fact, TP must unroll from the top of the roll, not the underside. |
#108
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 30, 10:01*am, RickH wrote:
On Oct 30, 7:24*am, "Stormin Mormon" wrote: Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or how to change a light bulb. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus *www.lds.org . "Red Green" wrote in message ... How did I know this post would have a large amount of replies just by the subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would range from Yes to No with everything in between? Luck I guess :-) TP must unroll from the topside of the roll (so loose end hangs away from the wall). *This way pulling the paper up lessens the friction imposed between the roll core and the dispenser hub allowing less- restrictive unrolling. *Additionally having the paper hang away from wall, lessens the occurence of fingerprints (and finger nail scratches) on the wall itself caused by people scratching against said wall to find the roll end. *Additionally there is better visibility of the roll top as opposed to the roll bottom in finding the paper end in a visual manner (as opposed to a "by feel" manner). This is a well-known fact, TP must unroll from the top of the roll, not the underside.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - Let's drop this and start a new topic if TP is your prime worrry! |
#109
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 29, 11:29*pm, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
This is veering away from the original question a little, but -- *This time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will be in the 40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know *lot of people who turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early afternoon they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and tolerate being a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning, the house would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the day, and just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun will go down and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO energy where the others have used both heat and a/c. * * * * * * No replies to the question about wives turning the stat all the way up/down so the heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think that. My ex certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to explain it to her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind of thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing. * * * Larry Try telling them that the thermostat is just a switch (on-off) not a "gas pedal" like in their car. cheers Bob |
#110
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 30, 5:53*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Van Chocstraw wrote: Tony Hwang wrote: Van Chocstraw wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: Please forgive me while I troll for a moment..... Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view after the argument is underway. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone. Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the outside. So....use your little noggin. Wow, Where are you coming from? The lower the setting the longer the setting. You save energy. I am talking about how much saving. Just it saves. Our 'stat is set to 17C from midnight. Back up to 20C at 7 in the morning. It does make a difference. Now our NG price is 3.80 per GigaJoule. Electricity is 7 cents/KWh I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and wood. Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze my ****ing ass off. Hmm, So you are a polluter. Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire places are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP. One who lives in past century! 80 degrees? You must have some kind of medical condition. Or are running around naked in the house? FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not. WOod is carbon neutral. Wood is only carbon neutral only IF the wood burned it offset by wood grown plus unless burned cleanly wood can add significant pollution form incomplete combustion cheers Bob |
#111
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Oct 30, 7:50*am, RickH wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:51*pm, DD_BobK wrote: On Oct 29, 11:05*am, RickH wrote: On Oct 29, 10:36*am, "SteveB" wrote: No, it takes too long to re-heat the boiler and all the water in the pipes, radiators, and floor tubing. *It is always best to set it once and leave it there all winter. *Too much energy is lost when all that water is asked to re-heat all the surfaces again. *For example when I feel the return manifold from the coils under my concrete slab after the slab was allowed to cool, the return water is ice cold, all that energy to reheat the slab. *No, bad asvice, best to keep it warm and leave it there, saves tons of energy. We use warm water here to shower. *I'd say that a higher % of people use heat pumps or gas to heat rather than water. *In your case, MAYBE it is cheaper to leave it on, but I think you are only quoting yourself, and no analytic studies by any testing agency. *Can you find any said studies? *I don't doubt that you believe what you say is true, I just think that it is not. Steve Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers, only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the thermostat once and leave it there. The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air heated buildings. In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant heated building you heat the building materials and that in turn heats the people. *When you lose all that stored energy it costs a fortune to recover it back in boiler usage. *There is nothing quite like the warmth of a radiant-heated house. So the laws of themodynamics are different from system to system? Heat its lost to the environment based on the difference in temperature between the heated space & the unheated space. * As the temperature of the heated space falls, the heat loss also fails. *When the temperature of the heated space falls to that of the unheated space, heat loss stops. I believe you are confusing the "time" it takes to recover with "huge amounts of energy are required to re-heat everything". If you were correct in your thinking (& oyu are not) the whole concept of temperature setback would not work (& it does). cheers Bob- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - If left alone the boiler kicks on maybe once every 4-6 hours for only a short 5-10 minute period (maybe 4 or 5 recyclings of the entire water load). If you let the house cool for 10 hours while at work, the boiler will have to run several hours to get all the floors (and house contents) heated again. *This run is more than the sum amount of time the boiler would have been fired if you had just left it alone. *You've never lived with a boiler have you? *Air is low mass, it heats up very quickly, radiant heating of the building mass itself takes longer from the same starting temp as the air entering a forced-air system. Yes, the "rules" are different for forced-air vs under-floor radiant heat, in practice, but not the laws of thermodynamics are not. Sorry Rick, you're mistaken...setback always saves energy, you're confusing recovery time, inconvenience & comfort with energy use. Run the numbers, I'll give you a starting point. Are we talking CI radiators, baseboard units or in floor radiant heat? Tube material? Estimate or determine the total amount the water in the system. Estimate the weight of the radiators & delivery system. Calc the thermal capacity of the water & the delivery system. Hint: The specific heat of water is 1 btu/lbm degF .... it is left as an exercise for the reader to determine Cp of the other materials in the system. I think you'll be surprised how little heat is "contained" in the system. So by your logic I should leave my mountain home heater thermostat set at 68F ALL the time? Day, night and when unoccupied because re- heating all the insulated mass of the house; drywall, flooring, floor framing and furnishings would take a "bunch of energy" ? I don't think so...my fuel bill is high enough with the set back technique is play. btw I have lived with boiler / steam heat cheers Bob |
#112
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote: I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? Of course cranking the thermostat up to 100 makes the house heat faster. It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the call button ten times, and traffic lights change faster if you hammer on the button. The harder and faster you hit it, the faster you'll get the result. Sheesh. What's happened to our schools? Don't they teach basic physics anymore? |
#113
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
In article
, Kurt Ullman wrote: In article , "Stormin Mormon" wrote: I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel? I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster. Ha, I just posted the same thing before seeing your reply... |
#114
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:26:33 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the call button ten times I got into the habit of taking the stairs. Often it's quicker, and it's good exercise. Bonus points for being spotted by the same person at either end and claiming you have teleportation powers :-) |
#115
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:26:33 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the call button ten times I got into the habit of taking the stairs. Often it's quicker, and it's good exercise. Bonus points for being spotted by the same person at either end and claiming you have teleportation powers :-) |
#116
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcem10
: Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or how to change a light bulb. BTW, which way does the ground go on a duplex outlet, up or down? :-) |
#117
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcem10
: Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or how to change a light bulb. BTW, which way does the ground go on a duplex outlet, up or down? :-) |
#118
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:17:03 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote: mm wrote: On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:56:01 -0400, Van Chocstraw wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: Please forgive me while I troll for a moment..... Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view after the argument is underway. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone. So if you are gone a long time it's six, and if gone a short time, it's half a dozen? Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the ARen't you thinking of gas mileage? other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the outside. So....use your little noggin. I will. All the extra things you mention, walls etc. are included every step of the way. So it saves money to turn down the heat. Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes an hour to Whether it's an hour or a month will determine how much money you save when you turn the furnace down. If it is only an hour you might save only a penny for all I know, but you won't use as much energy. cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it takes twice as much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than if you had left it alone. No. You just made that up and it's nonsense. It takes less, not twice as much. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Now if you go to Florida for 3 months and turn it down to 50 degrees, yes you save a bunch. |
#119
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:17:03 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote: mm wrote: On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:56:01 -0400, Van Chocstraw wrote: Stormin Mormon wrote: Please forgive me while I troll for a moment..... Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view after the argument is underway. Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone. So if you are gone a long time it's six, and if gone a short time, it's half a dozen? Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the ARen't you thinking of gas mileage? other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the outside. So....use your little noggin. I will. All the extra things you mention, walls etc. are included every step of the way. So it saves money to turn down the heat. Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes an hour to Whether it's an hour or a month will determine how much money you save when you turn the furnace down. If it is only an hour you might save only a penny for all I know, but you won't use as much energy. cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it takes twice as much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than if you had left it alone. No. You just made that up and it's nonsense. It takes less, not twice as much. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. Now if you go to Florida for 3 months and turn it down to 50 degrees, yes you save a bunch. |
#120
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Turn thermostat down or leave steady?
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:35 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote: Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems often do take a LONG time to recover temp. Yeah, but do you have one? His first answer assumed you did. -- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org . "mm" wrote in message .. . Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers, only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the thermostat once and leave it there. Why did you assume the Mormon had a boiler? The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air heated buildings. |
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