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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

This is veering away from the original question a little, but -- This
time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will be in the
40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know lot of people who
turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early afternoon
they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and tolerate being
a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning, the house
would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the day, and
just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun will go down
and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO energy
where the others have used both heat and a/c. No replies to
the question about wives turning the stat all the way up/down so the
heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think that. My ex
certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to explain it to
her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind of
thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing. Larry

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A couple weeks ago, one of the guys at church mentioned to
me that it's cold in the primary (kids) room. Sure enough,
about 65F. He'd gone in the mechanical room, and turned the
thermostat up a couple degrees. Which didn't help much,
cause the furnace had flamed out. I managed to get it to
restart, and then the kids had heat again.

--
Christopher A. Young
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"jeff_wisnia" wrote in
message
eonecommunications...

Poll question:

How many guys here have wives who mistakenly think that when
warming up
a cooled down house the rate of temperature increase of a
typical home
heating system will be faster if they shove the thermostat
setting all
the way up to 90F than if they just move it to the
appropriate setpoint.

Then of course they forget to reset it when the place
reaches a
comfortable temperature and wait for the man of the house to
snarl, "Why
the hell is it so damn hot in here?"

And visa versa for A/C of course.

It can't just only happen to me. G

Jeff

PS, I realize there may be some HVAC systems which don't
conform to the
above scenario, but they sure aren't in the majority around
here.

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10e12 furlongs per fortnight.


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They would be different, in that boilers recover much more
slowly.

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"RickH" wrote in message
news:2e779c01-e006-478d-8376-

Is this for forced air furnace or boiler?



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I'm not sure the Russian education is any better. Might be,
I've never been there. I've seen some reports and video
clips that they have a massive problem, with alcohol and
homeless kids. Much more so than USA.

--
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"terry" wrote in message
...

The whole question and some of the answers, demonstrates the
generally
poor knowledge of basic physics. Maybe that's our education
system?

No wonder the Russians got a satellite into space first?
..
Obviuosly if the temperature of the inside of a house is
lower there
will be less heat lost to outside. Because that's where it
goes folks!
From inside the house to outside. Higher winds also help to
conduct it
away.

If one left the house for a solid month with the heat turned
to
minimum (or off, provided nothing froze up!) less heat would
be used.
Whereas if the house is fully occupied heat turned to normal
and with
doors opening and closing more heat will be lost to outside;
all a
function of the temperature difference between outside and
inside,
depending on your insulation and air exchanger, vents etc.

Where it gets confusing for some is that with the thermostat
set
lower the whole interior of the house, walls, flooring,
furniture,
appliances, books etc. etc. cool down to that lower interior
house
temperature and it takes time and extra heat to bring them
back up
whatever the occupants wants, after they get home.

But the' extra' heat is required only for so long as it
takes for the
house temperature to 'catch up'. It depends on the thermal
mass of the
house interior and it's contents. If one has a house
constructed of
masonry or brick and/or with concrete floors/slab it will
take longer
to bring temperature back up. A well insulated wood frame
maybe less?

Conversely the next time the occupant leaves and turns the
temperature
down less (or no) heating will be required as the house
structure/
contents cool down. It will be nice and comfortable; with
'no one'
there, for quite a while.

Later the occupants return and will find the house chilly
and that it
will take several hours for the house and it contents to
warm up
again!

By the way. Lot of people confuse 'heat' (or absence of
heat) with
'temperature', right?

Trying to explain to my neighbour that if we had three
identical
blocks of material outside in the cold, (or even on a
regular cool
day) one of concrete, one of metal and one of wood. They
would all be
at the same temperature.

But if/when he picked them up the metal would 'feel' colder
than the
wood. BECAUSE it would conduct HEAT away from his hand more
quickly
than the others. Even though all are at the same
TEMPERATURE.

Have fun.


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Some pets have fur coats....

--
Christopher A. Young
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"cshenk" wrote in message
...

My heat is mostly gas. It costs the same no matter what
hour it's used at,
so reducing the temp for 8 hours at night when under
blankets, can save a
bit. Not much (might have been 2-3%) and we don't do it now
because of the
pets, but we used to when pet free.




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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

That's the wild card, is the price of various types of heat.
My home is natural gas, with no electric emergency heat. I
hadn't thought of that.

I did ask about energy, but the different prices is a very
important thought.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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"Tony" wrote in message
...

In most applications it saves energy to turn it down.
However if you
have a heat pump, and to get the house warmed up again it
goes to
emergency heat, then it can cost more. If you can turn off
the
emergency heat and wait a long time for the heat pump to
catch up, then
you will save energy. The worst case is electric emergency
heat, gas
emergency heat may or may not save money depending on the
price and
efficiency of the furnace. Although it just occurred to me
that you
asked about conserving *energy* and not *money* so that may
mean that no
mater what your heating system is, turning it down then up
again will
always save *energy*... I think?


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Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of
humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems
often do take a LONG time to recover temp.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...

Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on
boilers,
only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set
the
thermostat once and leave it there.


Why did you assume the Mormon had a boiler?

The rules are completely different for radiant heated
buidings vs air
heated buildings.

In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant
heated
building you heat the building materials and that in turn
heats the
people. When you lose all that stored energy it costs a
fortune to
recover it back in boiler usage.


It costs that same fortune and more to keep it hot without
interruption. Maybe it's also unpleasant becuase it takes
hours to
heat up, but that's another story.



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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

The energy you buy is the same energy as what's lost. Cold
house loses less heat. The recovery swing is a lot less heat
than keeping the house warm.

* It may take a long time, which is unacceptable
* It may cause your heat pump to go into emergency heat,
which is more expensive

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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..


"RickH" wrote in message
news:1ffa4de9-ce5a-44d9-91a7-

Yes, you save energy turning it down. In balance less heat
is lost.


What happens when he comes home and turns it back up again?
The
reverse, so where is the savings?


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But, President Carter has asked us all to conserve, wear
sweatters, and so on.

--
Christopher A. Young
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"Van Chocstraw" wrote in
message
...

I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and
wood.
Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze
my ****ing
ass off.


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I don't have a pipe, and that nonsense wouldn't light, in
any case.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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"Van Chocstraw" wrote in
message
...

Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes
an hour to
cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it
takes twice as
much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than
if you had
left it alone. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.




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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:13:41 -0500, Red Green wrote:

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcc1f8
:

Please forgive me while I troll for a moment.....

Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when
leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch
up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter.
I'll explain my point of view after the argument is
underway.


How did I know this post would have a large amount of replies just by the
subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would range from Yes
to No with everything in between?


Yeah, I figured the same :-) So far there doesn't seem to be too much
arguing.

Personal view: depends on the system type and the period of turning it
down. Anything with a lot of inertia, like slab heat, is best left alone
unless the period's very long. Something like forced air seems to recover
quickly (we turn our 'stat down to 60 overnight and it takes 3 or 4 mins
of burn to get things back up to temp in the morning. The electric
baseboards take a little longer, but not too much)

cheers

Jules

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Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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..


"Red Green" wrote in message
...

How did I know this post would have a large amount of
replies just by the
subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would
range from Yes
to No with everything in between?

Luck I guess :-)


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Well, sad to hear that you live in an over regulated part of
the world.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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..


"Tony Hwang" wrote in message
...

Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire places
are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP.


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I've had those kind of days. I call em "double ended" days.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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"Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message
...
This is veering away from the original question a little,
but -- This
time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will
be in the
40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know lot
of people who
turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early
afternoon
they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and
tolerate being
a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning,
the house
would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the
day, and
just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun
will go down
and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO
energy
where the others have used both heat and a/c.



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I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Lp1331 1p1331" wrote in message
...

No replies to
the question about wives turning the stat all the way
up/down so the
heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think
that. My ex
certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to
explain it to
her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind
of
thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing.
Larry




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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 20:20:32 -0400, mm wrote:

On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 13:53:18 -0400, jeff_wisnia
wrote:


Poll question:

How many guys here have wives who mistakenly think that when warming up
a cooled down house the rate of temperature increase of a typical home
heating system will be faster if they shove the thermostat setting all
the way up to 90F than if they just move it to the appropriate setpoint.


No it won't, but what about when boiling water. Shouldn't the temp be
all the way up when one is in a hurry? Even though on my electric
stove with a medium sized pot of water, water will continue to boil
when the knob is at 6 out of 10.


I think with most electric stoves the temperature of the heating element
is directly proportional to the dial setting (regardless of whether the
stove's altering the resistance of the system or cycling power on and off
like a furnace) - there's not necessarily any feedback from the heating
element to the controller via a thermostat.

So for a stove, yes giving it full power until it boils and then turning
it down to maintain boiling *is* quicker than just boiling it at the lower
setting (unless you're using coated pans, because you'll kill the
non-stick coating by giving them full power :-)

Now, a thermostat-controlled system is a different matter...

1) Is the heating device capable of variable heat according to demand?
Most aren't - but I'm sure there are some furnaces out there (for example)
that can switch in extra burners and produce a hotter output if the
difference between current temperature and 'desired temperature' (as set
by the 'stat) is great - in those cases turning the stat up to 11 might
actually make a difference :-)

2) The dynamics of the system if there's just one 'stat (and the
system design's poor) might be tricky - the area with the 'stat in might
reach desired temperature before the rest of the building feels warm, so
turning the thermostat way up could result in a situation where the rooms
that the people are actually in feel warmer sooner than they would if the
thermostat were just set to desired temp (and the room with the stat in
will end up feeling too hot until the temperature of the whole building
evens out)

In other words, it's not quite clear-cut I think...

cheers

Jules

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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?


I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press
the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster.

--
To find that place where the rats don't race
and the phones don't ring at all.
If once, you've slept on an island.
Scott Kirby "If once you've slept on an island"

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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of
humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems
often do take a LONG time to recover temp.

I usually think, forced hot air. Boiler, I don't know but imagine water
in tank would keep fairly hot if not circulated. Thermodynamically,
turning temperature down saves energy.
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You are so, so right. Thanks for a smile.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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..


"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...


I think it just an extension of the well known fact that
if you press
the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster.

--
To find that place where the rats don't race
and the phones don't ring at all.
If once, you've slept on an island.
Scott Kirby "If once you've slept on an island"


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Oh, I dunno. The carbon that made natural gas came out of
the environment. Some time back, but even so.

If you raise the carbon dioxide, the plants thrive, and the
system balances itself down again. The planet is self
adjusting.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
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..


"Van Chocstraw" wrote in
message
...

FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not.
WOod is
carbon neutral.




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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

On Oct 30, 8:24*am, Jules . Anything with a lot of inertia, like slab
heat, is best left alone
unless the period's very long.


Does that necessarily follow? Anything with a lot of inertia will
cool off much more slowly too. So you don't have nearly as far to
recover when you raise the temp again.

Maybe that part of the question should be rephrased as a time
constant.

Drop the temperature by 10 degrees. There will be a transient period
while the temperature is falling. Then there will be a steady state
period while the lower temperature is maintained. And another
transient period while the upper temperature is reestablished.

Clearly energy use is lower during the first transient period, as in
zero.

Clearly energy use is lower during the steady state period due to the
lower temperature setting.

Not so clearly energy use is higher during the second transient
period, your heat will not cycle until the new steady state is
reached.

If lower steady state is never reached because the setback is for too
short a time, then it seems logical that energy use during transient
periods would average to 50% duty cycle. But this isn't necessarily
true, because the time periods may not be equal. Loss of heat to the
environment is not at the same rate as gain of heat from the furnace.
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Stormin Mormon wrote:
Well, sad to hear that you live in an over regulated part of
the world.

No, It is not regulation. Collective logical common sense.
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Van Chocstraw wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please forgive me while I troll for a moment.....

Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the
house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I
have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view
after the argument is underway.


Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone.
Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the
other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside
wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save
energy
in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature
for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat
not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and
ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you
lower
the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is
drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the
outside. So....use your little noggin.
Wow,
Where are you coming from? The lower the setting the longer the
setting. You save energy. I am talking about how much saving. Just
it saves. Our 'stat is set to 17C from midnight. Back up to 20C at 7 in
the morning. It does make a difference. Now our NG price is 3.80 per
GigaJoule. Electricity is 7 cents/KWh

I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and wood.
Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze my ****ing
ass off.

Hmm,
So you are a polluter. Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire
places are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP.
One who lives in past century! 80 degrees? You must have some kind of
medical condition. Or are running around naked in the house?


FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not. WOod is
carbon neutr


So how many trees have you planted in your life time?
Even spent a time in forestry camp in your younger days planting
seedlings? Very hard work.

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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?


I think those are the same people who think that by creeping forward at a red light, they can
intimidate it into changing to green faster.

Eric Law


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"Kurt Ullman" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?


I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press
the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster.


Known, thanks to comedian Rich Hall, as "elacceleration". ;^)

Eric Law




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On Oct 29, 8:51*pm, DD_BobK wrote:
On Oct 29, 11:05*am, RickH wrote:





On Oct 29, 10:36*am, "SteveB" wrote:


No, it takes too long to re-heat the boiler and all the water in the
pipes, radiators, and floor tubing. *It is always best to set it once
and leave it there all winter. *Too much energy is lost when all that
water is asked to re-heat all the surfaces again. *For example when I
feel the return manifold from the coils under my concrete slab after
the slab was allowed to cool, the return water is ice cold, all that
energy to reheat the slab. *No, bad asvice, best to keep it warm and
leave it there, saves tons of energy.


We use warm water here to shower. *I'd say that a higher % of people use
heat pumps or gas to heat rather than water. *In your case, MAYBE it is
cheaper to leave it on, but I think you are only quoting yourself, and no
analytic studies by any testing agency. *Can you find any said studies? *I
don't doubt that you believe what you say is true, I just think that it is
not.


Steve


Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers,
only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the
thermostat once and leave it there.


The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air
heated buildings.


In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant heated
building you heat the building materials and that in turn heats the
people. *When you lose all that stored energy it costs a fortune to
recover it back in boiler usage. *There is nothing quite like the
warmth of a radiant-heated house.


So the laws of themodynamics are different from system to system?

Heat its lost to the environment based on the difference in
temperature between the heated space & the unheated space. * As the
temperature of the heated space falls, the heat loss also fails. *When
the temperature of the heated space falls to that of the unheated
space, heat loss stops.

I believe you are confusing the "time" it takes to recover with "huge
amounts of energy are required to re-heat everything".

If you were correct in your thinking (& oyu are not) the whole concept
of temperature setback would not work (& it does).

cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


If left alone the boiler kicks on maybe once every 4-6 hours for only
a short 5-10 minute period (maybe 4 or 5 recyclings of the entire
water load).

If you let the house cool for 10 hours while at work, the boiler will
have to run several hours to get all the floors (and house contents)
heated again. This run is more than the sum amount of time the boiler
would have been fired if you had just left it alone. You've never
lived with a boiler have you? Air is low mass, it heats up very
quickly, radiant heating of the building mass itself takes longer from
the same starting temp as the air entering a forced-air system.

Yes, the "rules" are different for forced-air vs under-floor radiant
heat, in practice, but not the laws of thermodynamics are not.

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On Oct 30, 7:24*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:
Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.

"Red Green" wrote in message

...

How did I know this post would have a large amount of
replies just by the
subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would
range from Yes
to No with everything in between?

Luck I guess :-)



TP must unroll from the topside of the roll (so loose end hangs away
from the wall). This way pulling the paper up lessens the friction
imposed between the roll core and the dispenser hub allowing less-
restrictive unrolling. Additionally having the paper hang away from
wall, lessens the occurence of fingerprints (and finger nail
scratches) on the wall itself caused by people scratching against said
wall to find the roll end. Additionally there is better visibility of
the roll top as opposed to the roll bottom in finding the paper end in
a visual manner (as opposed to a "by feel" manner).

This is a well-known fact, TP must unroll from the top of the roll,
not the underside.

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Default Turn thermostat down or leave steady?

On Oct 30, 10:01*am, RickH wrote:
On Oct 30, 7:24*am, "Stormin Mormon"





wrote:
Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb.


--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
*www.lds.org
.


"Red Green" wrote in message


...


How did I know this post would have a large amount of
replies just by the
subject before even expanding it? And know the replies would
range from Yes
to No with everything in between?


Luck I guess :-)


TP must unroll from the topside of the roll (so loose end hangs away
from the wall). *This way pulling the paper up lessens the friction
imposed between the roll core and the dispenser hub allowing less-
restrictive unrolling. *Additionally having the paper hang away from
wall, lessens the occurence of fingerprints (and finger nail
scratches) on the wall itself caused by people scratching against said
wall to find the roll end. *Additionally there is better visibility of
the roll top as opposed to the roll bottom in finding the paper end in
a visual manner (as opposed to a "by feel" manner).

This is a well-known fact, TP must unroll from the top of the roll,
not the underside.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Let's drop this and start a new topic if TP is your prime worrry!
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On Oct 29, 11:29*pm, (Lp1331 1p1331) wrote:
This is veering away from the original question a little, but -- *This
time of year, and also in spring, we have days where it will be in the
40's in the morning and 80's in the afternoon. I know *lot of people who
turn the heat up to 70 or more in the morning, then by early afternoon
they have the a/c on. If they would just leave it off and tolerate being
a couple of degrees cooler for an hour or so in the morning, the house
would warm up on its own and be comfortable for most of the day, and
just before it might get a degree or so too warm, the sun will go down
and it gets comfortable again. They will then have used ZERO energy
where the others have used both heat and a/c. * * * * * * No replies to
the question about wives turning the stat all the way up/down so the
heat/a/c runs faster. I doubt there are 1% who DON'T think that. My ex
certainly did, and it was a total waste of time trying to explain it to
her. Unfortunately, women don't have a monopoly on that kind of
thinking-- I know a lot of guys who think the same thing. * * * Larry


Try telling them that the thermostat is just a switch (on-off) not a
"gas pedal" like in their car.

cheers
Bob
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On Oct 30, 5:53*am, Van Chocstraw
wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
Tony Hwang wrote:
Van Chocstraw wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please forgive me while I troll for a moment.....


Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when leaving the
house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch up when I get home. I
have a way of looking at the matter. I'll explain my point of view
after the argument is underway.


Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone.
Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the
other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside
wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy
in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature
for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat
not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and
ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower
the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is
drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the
outside. So....use your little noggin.
Wow,
Where are you coming from? The lower the setting the longer the
setting. You save energy. I am talking about how much saving. Just
it saves. Our 'stat is set to 17C from midnight. Back up to 20C at 7 in
the morning. It does make a difference. Now our NG price is 3.80 per
GigaJoule. Electricity is 7 cents/KWh


I like my house 80 degrees all the time. I burn pellets and wood.
Screw saving energy. I'm not gonna pay for fuel and freeze my ****ing
ass off.

Hmm,
So you are a polluter. Where I live wood burning is no, no. Fire places
are all NG burning. Even my cabin in the woods have NG FP.
One who lives in past century! 80 degrees? You must have some kind of
medical condition. Or are running around naked in the house?


FACT: NG is a C02 polluter, wood and wood pellets are not. WOod is
carbon neutral.


Wood is only carbon neutral only IF the wood burned it offset by wood
grown plus unless burned cleanly wood can add significant pollution
form incomplete combustion

cheers
Bob


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On Oct 30, 7:50*am, RickH wrote:
On Oct 29, 8:51*pm, DD_BobK wrote:



On Oct 29, 11:05*am, RickH wrote:


On Oct 29, 10:36*am, "SteveB" wrote:


No, it takes too long to re-heat the boiler and all the water in the
pipes, radiators, and floor tubing. *It is always best to set it once
and leave it there all winter. *Too much energy is lost when all that
water is asked to re-heat all the surfaces again. *For example when I
feel the return manifold from the coils under my concrete slab after
the slab was allowed to cool, the return water is ice cold, all that
energy to reheat the slab. *No, bad asvice, best to keep it warm and
leave it there, saves tons of energy.


We use warm water here to shower. *I'd say that a higher % of people use
heat pumps or gas to heat rather than water. *In your case, MAYBE it is
cheaper to leave it on, but I think you are only quoting yourself, and no
analytic studies by any testing agency. *Can you find any said studies? *I
don't doubt that you believe what you say is true, I just think that it is
not.


Steve


Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on boilers,
only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set the
thermostat once and leave it there.


The rules are completely different for radiant heated buidings vs air
heated buildings.


In an air heated building you heat the air, in a radiant heated
building you heat the building materials and that in turn heats the
people. *When you lose all that stored energy it costs a fortune to
recover it back in boiler usage. *There is nothing quite like the
warmth of a radiant-heated house.


So the laws of themodynamics are different from system to system?


Heat its lost to the environment based on the difference in
temperature between the heated space & the unheated space. * As the
temperature of the heated space falls, the heat loss also fails. *When
the temperature of the heated space falls to that of the unheated
space, heat loss stops.


I believe you are confusing the "time" it takes to recover with "huge
amounts of energy are required to re-heat everything".


If you were correct in your thinking (& oyu are not) the whole concept
of temperature setback would not work (& it does).


cheers
Bob- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


If left alone the boiler kicks on maybe once every 4-6 hours for only
a short 5-10 minute period (maybe 4 or 5 recyclings of the entire
water load).

If you let the house cool for 10 hours while at work, the boiler will
have to run several hours to get all the floors (and house contents)
heated again. *This run is more than the sum amount of time the boiler
would have been fired if you had just left it alone. *You've never
lived with a boiler have you? *Air is low mass, it heats up very
quickly, radiant heating of the building mass itself takes longer from
the same starting temp as the air entering a forced-air system.

Yes, the "rules" are different for forced-air vs under-floor radiant
heat, in practice, but not the laws of thermodynamics are not.


Sorry Rick, you're mistaken...setback always saves energy, you're
confusing recovery time, inconvenience & comfort with energy use.

Run the numbers, I'll give you a starting point.

Are we talking CI radiators, baseboard units or in floor radiant
heat? Tube material? Estimate or determine the total amount the
water in the system. Estimate the weight of the radiators & delivery
system. Calc the thermal capacity of the water & the delivery
system. Hint: The specific heat of water is 1 btu/lbm degF .... it
is left as an exercise for the reader to determine Cp of the other
materials in the system.

I think you'll be surprised how little heat is "contained" in the
system.

So by your logic I should leave my mountain home heater thermostat set
at 68F ALL the time? Day, night and when unoccupied because re-
heating all the insulated mass of the house; drywall, flooring, floor
framing and furnishings would take a "bunch of energy" ?

I don't think so...my fuel bill is high enough with the set back
technique is play.

btw I have lived with boiler / steam heat

cheers
Bob

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In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?


Of course cranking the thermostat up to 100 makes the house heat faster.
It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the
call button ten times, and traffic lights change faster if you hammer on
the button. The harder and faster you hit it, the faster you'll get the
result. Sheesh. What's happened to our schools? Don't they teach basic
physics anymore?
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In article
,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

In article ,
"Stormin Mormon" wrote:

I've met enough people who think slamming the thermostat
makes it heat faster. Dunno. They must learn from driving a
car where tromping the gas pedal throws it into four barrel?


I think it just an extension of the well known fact that if you press
the button repeatedly the elevator will arrive faster.


Ha, I just posted the same thing before seeing your reply...
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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:26:33 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the
call button ten times


I got into the habit of taking the stairs. Often it's quicker, and it's
good exercise. Bonus points for being spotted by the same person at
either end and claiming you have teleportation powers :-)

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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:26:33 -0700, Smitty Two wrote:
It's the same principle that makes elevators come faster if you hit the
call button ten times


I got into the habit of taking the stairs. Often it's quicker, and it's
good exercise. Bonus points for being spotted by the same person at
either end and claiming you have teleportation powers :-)



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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcem10
:

Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb.


BTW, which way does the ground go on a duplex outlet, up or down?


:-)
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"Stormin Mormon" wrote in news:hcem10
:

Next week, I'll ask how to hang the roll of toilet paper. Or
how to change a light bulb.


BTW, which way does the ground go on a duplex outlet, up or down?


:-)
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On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:17:03 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:56:01 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please forgive me while I troll for a moment.....

Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when
leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch
up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter.
I'll explain my point of view after the argument is
underway.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone.


So if you are gone a long time it's six, and if gone a short time,
it's half a dozen?

Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the


ARen't you thinking of gas mileage?

other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside
wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy
in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature
for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat
not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and
ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower
the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is
drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the
outside. So....use your little noggin.


I will. All the extra things you mention, walls etc. are included
every step of the way. So it saves money to turn down the heat.


Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes an hour to


Whether it's an hour or a month will determine how much money you save
when you turn the furnace down. If it is only an hour you might save
only a penny for all I know, but you won't use as much energy.

cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it takes twice as
much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than if you had
left it alone.


No. You just made that up and it's nonsense. It takes less, not
twice as much.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Now if you go to Florida for 3 months and turn it down to 50 degrees,
yes you save a bunch.


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On Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:17:03 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

mm wrote:
On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:56:01 -0400, Van Chocstraw
wrote:

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Please forgive me while I troll for a moment.....

Is it energy saving to turn the thermostat down, when
leaving the house? I mean, the furnace has to run to catch
up when I get home. I have a way of looking at the matter.
I'll explain my point of view after the argument is
underway.

Six of one, half dozen of the other. Depends on how long you are gone.


So if you are gone a long time it's six, and if gone a short time,
it's half a dozen?

Leaving the thermostat at a steady temperature saves energy. On the


ARen't you thinking of gas mileage?

other hand, a lower difference between the inside wall and the outside
wall means lower heat loss. So lowering the thermostat does save energy
in the long run. Now, constantly raising and lowering the temperature
for short periods wastes energy. When you raise it you have to reheat
not only the heating system but the entire inside wall, floor and
ceiling not to mention all the furniture and appliances. When you lower
the thermostat, all those items lose all their heat again the heat is
drawn out into the room and the room loses it through the walls to the
outside. So....use your little noggin.


I will. All the extra things you mention, walls etc. are included
every step of the way. So it saves money to turn down the heat.


Nope. If you lower the thermostat, gone for an hour, takes an hour to


Whether it's an hour or a month will determine how much money you save
when you turn the furnace down. If it is only an hour you might save
only a penny for all I know, but you won't use as much energy.

cool off the house, then come home and turn it back up it takes twice as
much energy to heat up the house and all the contents than if you had
left it alone.


No. You just made that up and it's nonsense. It takes less, not
twice as much.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Now if you go to Florida for 3 months and turn it down to 50 degrees,
yes you save a bunch.


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On Fri, 30 Oct 2009 08:18:35 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Boilers are typically left hot, so there isn't a bunch of
humidity in the boiler, rusting it out. And, boiler systems
often do take a LONG time to recover temp.


Yeah, but do you have one? His first answer assumed you did.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.


"mm" wrote in message
.. .

Boiler installers never put daily "set back" thermostats on
boilers,
only forced air systems get those, and they tell you to set
the
thermostat once and leave it there.


Why did you assume the Mormon had a boiler?

The rules are completely different for radiant heated
buidings vs air
heated buildings.


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