[muzician21]

Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

[HLS]

"muzician21" wrote in message
news:eb21ecca-093d-4824-97fe-
Thanks for all input.

Look, I didnt study this as well as I should have.
BS engines with solid state ignition normally start pretty well.

I suspect you might be having fuel delivery problems. I have rebuilt the
"carburetors"
on some BS implements we have here several times.

In these cases, I have to take the fuel tank off, wash it well with water,
and then
carefully dry it. Then, I remove the carburetor, clean it, and put it back
together
with a new diaphragm. This is important. Just a carburetor job is not
enough.

Ignition may have to be followed up as well.

Let us know how you are proceeding. I have had only one BS engine really
disappoint me, and that was because the casting was make of parmesan cheese.

[m6onz5a]

On May 23, 7:30*pm, muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

try a quirt of starting fluid in the carb. Will it start any faster? I
too think it's a fuel delivery issue if it'll start quicker on the
starting fluid.

Does it have a choke setting?

You can also see if the solid state unit is adjustable. Maybe the gap
is too far apart.

[Vic Smith]

On Sat, 23 May 2009 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
wrote:

Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

Not familiar with this particular engine, but it sounds like a gas
delivery/mixture problem. Choking can be real critical with these.
This is the first year I've had no problem starting my 2-cycle
weedwacker because I've learned the primer bulb needs to be pumped up
hard, the exact choke setting it likes, and that it has to be unchoked
immediately upon firing. Only took me 5 years, but I've got it
starting in 3 pulls.
I'd start by maybe looking in the carb for wetness, and trying 3 to 5
pulls at different choke settings. But you have to let it dry out
between tries so you're not confusing the issue.
Once you know what works, you're all set. Until it doesn't work any
more.
That's what I like about the Honda I have on my Craftsman.
3 horse I think, 4-cycle.
It starts first pull after sitting all winter. Every time for about 6
years now. Original plug.
And I never drain the gas or use a gas additive on anything.
Not saying don't, just that I don't bother.

--Vic

[[email protected]]

On May 23, 7:00*pm, Vic Smith wrote:
On Sat, 23 May 2009 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT), muzician21



wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

Not familiar with this particular engine, but it sounds like a gas
delivery/mixture problem. *Choking can be real critical with these.
This is the first year I've had no problem starting my 2-cycle
weedwacker because I've learned the primer bulb needs to be pumped up
hard, the exact choke setting it likes, and that it has to be unchoked
immediately upon firing. *Only took me 5 years, but I've got it
starting in 3 pulls.
I'd start by maybe looking in the carb for wetness, and trying 3 to 5
pulls at different choke settings. *But you have to let it dry out
between tries so you're not confusing the issue.
Once you know what works, you're all set. *Until it doesn't work any
more.
That's what I like about the Honda I have on my Craftsman.
3 horse I think, 4-cycle.
It starts first pull after sitting all winter. *Every time for about 6
years now. *Original plug.
And I never drain the gas or use a gas additive on anything.
Not saying don't, just that I don't bother.

--Vic

If this is an older Briggs without a primer...they make an after---
market primer on a replacement gas cap.
Stens.com should have it (they used to). It makes starting a snap.

[Fat Moe]

muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.
Sounds like it's time to do a little work on the carburetor. Put a new
diaphragm in it if it the older type that uses those. As the motors age
it's worth while to make a priming port in the air cleaner, drill a hole
you can plug after starting and spray some carb cleaner in it to start
it. Also check the valve clearances (those easy spin engine valve
clearances are pretty critical for easy starting) and a good spark plug.
Would help if you posted the engine model number. On newer ones
with primer bulbs and bowl/float it's common for the main jet to get
clogged over winter.

[Brandon McCombs]

Fat Moe wrote:
muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

[snip]

Thanks for all input.
Sounds like it's time to do a little work on the carburetor. Put a new
diaphragm in it if it the older type that uses those. As the motors age
it's worth while to make a priming port in the air cleaner, drill a hole
you can plug after starting and spray some carb cleaner in it to start
it. Also check the valve clearances (those easy spin engine valve
clearances are pretty critical for easy starting) and a good spark plug.
Would help if you posted the engine model number. On newer ones with
primer bulbs and bowl/float it's common for the main jet to get clogged
over winter.

I had a mower given to me recently by a co-worker. It uses a B&S engine.
I had to take the carb apart and clean out the main jet because he
hadn't used it in years. The mower would not stay running unless I did
that however, it *would* start up still on the first or second try if
primed properly. It would also continue running if a 2nd person was
available to continue priming it. I don't know anything about mowers but
if the OP's mower takes that long to start could it still be an issue of
a dirty/clogged carb? I'm just comparing what you said to what I
recently experienced.

[Ashton Crusher[_2_]]

On Sat, 23 May 2009 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
wrote:

Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.


Does it have one of those push ball primer gizmos? I've got a BS with
one, it's about 5 years old now. Supposedly it takes 3 to 4 pushes of
the ball to prime it. But that has never worked. It takes 13 pushes,
and has since it was new, to get it primed. then it starts on the
first pull and runs just fine.

[John S[_3_]]

On Sat, 23 May 2009 16:30:46 -0700 (PDT), muzician21 wrote:

Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

It certainly seems that there's a fuel problem when cold, since you say the
engine runs fine once started.

A couple of suggestions, with apologies if they're not relevant due to the
layout of your particular engine:-

1) Remove the air cleaner and see if you can look into the carburettor's
air intake pipe.
Normally there will be a spring-loaded butterfly valve, which is closed
when the throttle is in the "start" position. If there's any obstruction
preventing this butterfly valve plate from closing properly it can allow
too much air to enter in the start position, so the start mixture isn't
rich enough.

2) If the carburettor has a priming bulb (which you push to prime the
engine), give it two or three pushes while you're looking into the intake
pipe, and confirm that raw fuel is being squirted in there.

My mower starts first pull, but only since I realised that it takes a
little time for the raw fuel squirted in by the primer bulb, to evaporate.

These days I normally give the bulb four pushes, take the cap off the gas
tank, and then fill the tank from my fuel can. By the time I've done this
and replaced the cap, the raw fuel has mostly evaporated, and the engine
draws in vapour instead of liquid fuel, to start on the first pull.

Cheers,
John S

(follow-up set to rec.autos.tech, where I saw your post)

[Jim]

muzician21 wrote:
Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use.

The issue is that the engine needs a rich mixture to start when cold.
There are several different ways that the engine (carb) could be
designed to do that. In your case it probably has a choke. If it was the
original 30 year old engine the choke would probably be part of the
throttle control. The procedure for starting the engine would be to set
the throttle to the start position and then when the engine started you
would move the throttle control lever to the run position. On this
design the throttle cable was mechanically linked to the choke plate.
Sometime in the 80's they changed that to an automatic choke where a
spring closed the choke plate and then a diaphragm used engine vacuum to
pull the choke open once it started. On newer engines there is also the
system that eliminates the choke completely and replaced it with a
primer bulb where you pump a little gas (others have described the
process).

So the first thing you need to do is identify which method it uses to
deliver extra gas on cold starts and then figure out why it is not
working as designed.

-jim

[ransley]

On May 23, 6:30*pm, muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

A motor that old may be worn out and not have enough compression to
start easily or have good power. Have you tried starting fluid.
Electonic ignition modules eventualy fail, hard starting was my first
sign of mine failing. If you have ever hit anything and stalled the
mower the flywheel key could be bent throwing off timing. At that age
it could be many things.

[[email protected]]

On May 23, 6:30*pm, muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

Part no.125-492

http://www.stens.com/dealernet/catalog.html

[Stormin Mormon]

Several things could be the issue.

* Sometimes the gasket between the carb and the engine body
dries out. Or people neglect to replace it. Pull the carb,
and make sure it has a gasket. A very little bit of Permatex
#2B Non Hardening gasket sealer will be a big help. If the
gasket isn't there, put a little permatex on the carb to
engine matching surfaces.
* Only buy new gasoline, of a trusted name brand. Pay the
couple extra cents and get good brand. In the western NY
area, Mobil and Hess are good.
* If the spark plug is Champion, try a different brand. They
had bad sparkplugs in the past.
* Like the guys say, try a squirt of ether on the air
cleaner filter before starting. If that helps, you likely
have fuel supply problems.
* A trace of water in the fuel tank will cause this kind of
problem.
* If the gap between the flywheel and the ignition coil is
too great, the spark will be weak. Normal air gap is about
the thickness of the cardboard they use for spark plug
boxes.

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"muzician21" wrote in message
...
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum
deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest
of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed
a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state
ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually
started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more
and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a
clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to
re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem
to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the
exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so
it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during
the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory
of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove
and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace
the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should
start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look,
what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so
it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot
of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

[JP]

On May 23, 4:30*pm, muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

I have found that a lot of times the muffler is plugged.
I have got some good byes because of a plugged muffler.

[Stormin Mormon]

Sorry you had to say good bye to a mower, just cause the
muffler is clogged. Many of them have half inch pipe thread,
and replace rather easily.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"JP" wrote in message
...

I have found that a lot of times the muffler is plugged.
I have got some good byes because of a plugged muffler.

[Joe]

On May 23, 6:36*pm, "HLS" wrote:

snip

*I have had only one BS engine really
disappoint me, and that was because the casting was make of parmesan cheese.

If the engine plant is in Milwaukee, they probably used cheddar.

Joe

[Ulysses]

"muzician21" wrote in message
...
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

As Stormin suggested I agree you should check the "air gap" on the ignition
coil even though it sounds like a fuel problem. I remove the ignition coil
every few years and clean the edges and magnet on the flywheel with
sandpaper and coat it with a little oil or vaseline or whatever. This helps
keep down the rust. I generally use three thicknesses of printer paper to
adjust the air gap. Check the spark plug connector and clean out any
corrosion and squeeze it a bit with pliers to ensure good contact.
Sometimes the spring for the governor will get a bit stretched and can be
shortened to where it just barely has tension with the engine off. Try
holding the throttle all the way closed while it's running and adjust the
idle speed to where it seems about right. If it's too low it may be hard to
start. Also, if the throttle/choke cable has slipped it can cause the choke
to be on or off when you want it the other way. Removing the head might be
in order to--scrape off the carbon deposits and clean the valve seats being
careful not do damage the seats. I have had success many times simply by
putting some high-temp silicone on the old head gasket and reusing it.

My old B&S lawnmower sounds very similar to yours but it's only 23 years
old. My experience with these engines is that as long as the piston is
still attached to the crankshaft they can be made to mow lawns. I was
having a lot of trouble with mine in the past with hard starting and I even
turned the engine sideways so I could pull the rope from the side. This
arrangement also eliminated some problems with the cable moving out of
adjustment as it eliminated the 90 degree turn in the cable. Also, check to
be sure the blade is tight. These things need it to maintain momentum.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Sun, 24 May 2009 09:57:26 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

* If the spark plug is Champion, try a different brand. They
had bad sparkplugs in the past.

Plenty of good advise for the OP, so far. I would start with a new
plug with a hotter heat-range. Putting a "hot plug" in one mower was a
solution for me.

Some pre-gapped plugs are not accurate and should always be checked ,
before install.

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

I've worked on a lot of standby generators with small
engines and one of the problems with older engines
that have accumulated a lot of hours is valve seat wear.
The valve recedes into the head decreasing clearance
at the end of the valve stem. You can actually heat up
such an engine with a propane torch and the expansion
of the metal parts will allow it to start easily. If you
can adjust the valve clearance, I do believe your engine
will start easily again.

TDD

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 23 May 2009 20:13:16 -0500, Fat Moe
wrote:

muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.
Sounds like it's time to do a little work on the carburetor. Put a new
diaphragm in it if it the older type that uses those. As the motors age
it's worth while to make a priming port in the air cleaner, drill a hole
you can plug after starting and spray some carb cleaner in it to start
it. Also check the valve clearances (those easy spin engine valve
clearances are pretty critical for easy starting) and a good spark plug.
Would help if you posted the engine model number. On newer ones
with primer bulbs and bowl/float it's common for the main jet to get
clogged over winter.

Put some "sea foam" in the tank to clear out the jets and see what
happens. If it has adjustable jets try setting 1/4 turn richer to see
if it helps. Definitely sounds like it is starting too lean.

[Stormin Mormon]

On the early Briggs, that means pulling the head, and then
using special equipment to get the spring ends back on.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...

I've worked on a lot of standby generators with small
engines and one of the problems with older engines
that have accumulated a lot of hours is valve seat wear.
The valve recedes into the head decreasing clearance
at the end of the valve stem. You can actually heat up
such an engine with a propane torch and the expansion
of the metal parts will allow it to start easily. If you
can adjust the valve clearance, I do believe your engine
will start easily again.

TDD

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
On the early Briggs, that means pulling the head, and then
using special equipment to get the spring ends back on.


I like the Vanguard engines because they have overhead valves
that are easy to adjust. It makes it easy to get one of them
running good again.

TDD

[ransley]

On May 24, 9:11*am, JP wrote:
On May 23, 4:30*pm, muzician21 wrote:





Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.

I have found that a lot of times the muffler is plugged.
I have got some good byes because of a plugged muffler.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I never heard that one, I have had a 2 stroke spark arrestor clog up.

[ransley]

On May 24, 8:40*pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On the early Briggs, that means pulling the head, and then
using special equipment to get the spring ends back on.

I like the Vanguard engines because they have overhead valves
that are easy to adjust. It makes it easy to get one of them
running good again.

TDD

What about low compression, then its toasted.

[fred[_6_]]

muzician21 wrote in
:

Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Try this: it won't cost you anything and it worked it my case. In fact I
have to do it every year due to poor quality gas.

First drain the gas tank completely along with the hose to the carborator.
Next either *temporarily* plug or otherwise stop any ability for liquid
to come out of the hose. Vice grips on the end works fine if placed right.
Leave the hose attached to the tank however and remove the tank from the
mower. Put about 1 cup of Varsol into the gas tank. Screw on the lid for
the gas tank so it won't leak. Shake the tank vigoursly for about a minute
or so. Drain the fluid from both ends - the tank and the hose.

After a years mowing the filter at the bottom of my gas tank gets so
clogged with gunk that it changes colour from silver to black. You can
check by draining the tank and looking at it carefully if it's visible.

I went for two years having to start it with ether the first time every
year. Even took it in for service with no improvement before I figured
this out. Now it will start on choke first pull when it's 45 degrees F.
Every time.

[The Daring Dufas[_7_]]

ransley wrote:
On May 24, 8:40 pm, The Daring Dufas
wrote:
Stormin Mormon wrote:
On the early Briggs, that means pulling the head, and then
using special equipment to get the spring ends back on.
I like the Vanguard engines because they have overhead valves
that are easy to adjust. It makes it easy to get one of them
running good again.

TDD

What about low compression, then its toasted.

With butter and jam?

TDD

[Stormin Mormon]

That will give you a heart attack..... butter. You should
use margarine, but that has trans fats. Ah, well. Give up.
Go be a monk in Tibet.

Did we hear back, why the engine isn't starting properly?

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in
message ...

What about low compression, then its toasted.

With butter and jam?

TDD

[Scott Dorsey]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
That will give you a heart attack..... butter. You should
use margarine, but that has trans fats. Ah, well. Give up.
Go be a monk in Tibet.

Even worse. In Tibet, they like butter so much that they put it in their
tea. But it's not just any butter, it's yak butter. And it's not just any
yak butter, it's _rancid_ yak butter. No thanks.

Did we hear back, why the engine isn't starting properly?

If you have a yak, you don't need any lawnmower.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[fred[_6_]]

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in
:

That will give you a heart attack..... butter. You should
use margarine, but that has trans fats. Ah, well. Give up.
Go be a monk in Tibet.

Did we hear back, why the engine isn't starting properly?

I have my doubts whether we will - gg, spam war going on, and crossposted
to four entirely different groups.

[Steve[_5_]]

muzician21 wrote:
Have a B&S on a 70's era Snapper 21" pusher with an aluminum deck. I
believe the engine is probably 10 years newer than the rest of the
mower.

Maybe 10 years ago I took it to a repair shop who installed a solid
state unit to replace the points. Even with the solid state ignition
it was never one-pull start, but as I recall it usually started with
probably 3 - 5 pulls. Now it takes probably 20 pulls or more and
monkeying with the throttle. Once it fires it runs like a clock, runs
up and down the speed range fine. It's also easier to re-start once
it's been running - though still not one pull. Doesn't seem to use an
inordinate amount of oil, no discernible smoke out the exhaust. It
gets what I'd call moderate use. I'm in central Florida so it gets run
bi-weekly or so during the rainy months, not at all during the months
of what passes for a winter down here.

I'm mechanically inclined but not well-versed on the theory of this
kind of engine. I've had it broken down far enough to remove and flush
the gas tank, change the points when it had points, replace the pull
rope. I've change the spark plug of course. I know it should start
much easier than it does. Any suggestions where to look, what to
tweak? There isn't that much to it from what I can see, so it
shouldn't be that difficult. I believe this mower has a lot of life
left in it.

Thanks for all input.


If its a 70s mower with a 10-year-newer B&S engine, that would mean its
an 80s-vintage B&S. That would be about the lowest point in the armpit
of quality of B&S carburetors, and it agrees with your symptoms. The
"pulsa-jet" carbs of that era used the vacuum pulses of the intake
runner to operate a diaphragm that pumped fuel up from the tank to the
carb. They also had a vacuum-operated choke that had a tendency to not
choke enough when cold and choke too much when hot. They tended to work
fine once you got them running, but they were HARD to get going the
first time because there just isn't enough vacuum pulse to pump the fuel
while you're yanking the rope. Especially when they aged a little and
the pump diaphragm got a little stiff You could try a carb rebuild kit,
but frankly the only way I ever made an 80s Briggs run truly great was
to scavenge the carb (and fuel tank) off an older (70s or even late 60s)
engine.

[muzician21]

On May 24, 9:57*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.


I tried pouring about a tablespoon or so of gas in the carb before
starting and it fired up immediately, much easier to pull than I ever
recall it being. Couldn't believe how silky smooth it started.
Apparently not a thing wrong with the solid state ignition. Apparently
it's the cold fuel delivery issue. Looking into a replacement
diaphragm for it.

Anyone have a suggestion for online parts houses for older B&S stuff?

The model on this carb is 092908 0571 01. One of the local places that
carries Snapper had a listing for 092908 0571 99 which going by the
exploded line drawings on his system looks to be the same carb.

[Oren[_2_]]

On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
wrote:

On May 24, 9:57*am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.


I tried pouring about a tablespoon or so of gas in the carb before
starting and it fired up immediately, much easier to pull than I ever
recall it being. Couldn't believe how silky smooth it started.
Apparently not a thing wrong with the solid state ignition. Apparently
it's the cold fuel delivery issue. Looking into a replacement
diaphragm for it.

Anyone have a suggestion for online parts houses for older B&S stuff?

The model on this carb is 092908 0571 01. One of the local places that
carries Snapper had a listing for 092908 0571 99 which going by the
exploded line drawings on his system looks to be the same carb.

Check here for a starting place.

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/buy/

A local shop might just have the parts you need.

[jim]

muzician21 wrote:

On May 24, 9:57 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.

I tried pouring about a tablespoon or so of gas in the carb before
starting and it fired up immediately, much easier to pull than I ever
recall it being. Couldn't believe how silky smooth it started.
Apparently not a thing wrong with the solid state ignition. Apparently
it's the cold fuel delivery issue. Looking into a replacement
diaphragm for it.

There are lots of parts for the pulsa jets on ebay.

Your problem is the cold starting mechanism and that is what you should be
looking at. What does your carb have? Does it have a primer bulb or a choke? If
it has a choke what kind of choke?

-jim





Anyone have a suggestion for online parts houses for older B&S stuff?

The model on this carb is 092908 0571 01. One of the local places that
carries Snapper had a listing for 092908 0571 99 which going by the
exploded line drawings on his system looks to be the same carb.

[Stormin Mormon]

Since the engine starts on a splash of gas, that suggests
choke problems, or bad gasket between the carb and the
engine. I've worked on a couple of motors which had NO
gasket between the carb and the engine. The outside air
comes in through the space, and the choke doesn't work
properly.

Been a while since I ordered any Briggs parts, I don't know
of any online places.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"muzician21" wrote in message
...
On May 24, 9:57 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it
going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.


I tried pouring about a tablespoon or so of gas in the carb
before
starting and it fired up immediately, much easier to pull
than I ever
recall it being. Couldn't believe how silky smooth it
started.
Apparently not a thing wrong with the solid state ignition.
Apparently
it's the cold fuel delivery issue. Looking into a
replacement
diaphragm for it.

Anyone have a suggestion for online parts houses for older
B&S stuff?

The model on this carb is 092908 0571 01. One of the local
places that
carries Snapper had a listing for 092908 0571 99 which going
by the
exploded line drawings on his system looks to be the same
carb.

[muzician21]

I got a new diaphragm, but looking at the old diaphragm, it looks to
be intact and in good shape. The material still seems pliable, I held
it up to a light and can't find any breaks in it, including where the
choke plate rod is attached.

The longer of the two pickup tubes had a fair amount of crud on the
screen, which I've cleaned off. Gonna put it back together with the
old diaphragm and see if it starts any easier with that pickup cleaned
off. If it does, I'll store the new diaphragm in the refrigerator for
future use.

And why are there two pickup tubes and why are they different lengths?

[Steve[_5_]]

Oren wrote:
On Wed, 3 Jun 2009 16:48:34 -0700 (PDT), muzician21
wrote:

On May 24, 9:57 am, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

Please let us know how things work out. If you get it going,
or not. Either way, please write again. That way, we can
learn also.

I tried pouring about a tablespoon or so of gas in the carb before
starting and it fired up immediately, much easier to pull than I ever
recall it being. Couldn't believe how silky smooth it started.
Apparently not a thing wrong with the solid state ignition. Apparently
it's the cold fuel delivery issue. Looking into a replacement
diaphragm for it.

Anyone have a suggestion for online parts houses for older B&S stuff?

The model on this carb is 092908 0571 01. One of the local places that
carries Snapper had a listing for 092908 0571 99 which going by the
exploded line drawings on his system looks to be the same carb.

Check here for a starting place.

http://www.briggsandstratton.com/buy/

A local shop might just have the parts you need.


Also:

http://www.jackssmallengines.com/sma...ines_index.cfm

[HLS]

"muzician21" wrote in message
...
I got a new diaphragm, but looking at the old diaphragm, it looks to
be intact and in good shape. The material still seems pliable, I held
it up to a light and can't find any breaks in it, including where the
choke plate rod is attached.

##### Look... When this sort of thing happens, most of us want to fix it,
not to analyze it. I have had it happen lots of times over the years, and
it
is usually because of crud buildup in the fuel and/or the diaphragm. I have
found that you save time by cleaning out the tank, cleaning the carb, and
replacing the diaphragm. You can do this in a half hour in most cases.
The diaphragm, IIRC, is not a ballbuster in price.



The longer of the two pickup tubes had a fair amount of crud on the
screen, which I've cleaned off.

##### And this is also not unusual, especially when one has starting
problems.

Gonna put it back together with the
old diaphragm and see if it starts any easier with that pickup cleaned
off. If it does, I'll store the new diaphragm in the refrigerator for
future use.

#### You must like to work on these engines.
I normally keep one or two of the diaphragms around. But I wouldnt put an
old
one back in for anything. It is a waste of time to fiddlefart with this
unless
you have a lot more expensive diaphragm that I am accustomed to buying.
Or have a lot of time on your hands

[jim]

muzician21 wrote:

I got a new diaphragm, but looking at the old diaphragm, it looks to
be intact and in good shape. The material still seems pliable, I held
it up to a light and can't find any breaks in it, including where the
choke plate rod is attached.


The diaphragm was always good. You never had any symptoms that indicated a bad
diaphragm.

When you fill the tank all the way to the top the diaphragm isn't even needed
because on this style carb it is only really needed when the fuel starts to drop
below full.

Your problem is the choke is not closing. There is a spring that closes the
choke. The spring may be broken or missing. The diaphragm pulls the choke open
once the engine is running. If you had holes in the diaphragm your symptoms
would be the opposite - you would be getting too much gas as it would be sucking
gas in thru the holes.


The longer of the two pickup tubes had a fair amount of crud on the
screen, which I've cleaned off. Gonna put it back together with the
old diaphragm and see if it starts any easier with that pickup cleaned
off. If it does, I'll store the new diaphragm in the refrigerator for
future use.

And why are there two pickup tubes and why are they different lengths?


One tube (the longer) goes down to the bottom of the tank the other goes in a
small reservoir. Part of the diaphragm is the fuel pump that pumps gas up into
this reservoir (there are two flaps that act as pump valves). the gas in the
reservoir stays at a constant level because what ever extra is pumped in just
overflows and runs back into the tank. When the tank is full then the reservoir
is also full so no pumping is needed until the fuel level drops down.
The small tube feeds the main jet which controls the air fuel mixture. That
mixture is adjustable with the threaded needle valve.

-jim

[Stormin Mormon]

The longer one pumps too much gas. The flow of gas keeps a
small basin (in the fuel tank) full. The short tube supplies
the gas to the carb. By keeping the small basin (at top of
the tank) full, the engine always has the same distance of
lift for the fuel, even when the tank is nearly empty.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"muzician21" wrote in message
...
I got a new diaphragm, but looking at the old diaphragm, it
looks to
be intact and in good shape. The material still seems
pliable, I held
it up to a light and can't find any breaks in it, including
where the
choke plate rod is attached.

The longer of the two pickup tubes had a fair amount of crud
on the
screen, which I've cleaned off. Gonna put it back together
with the
old diaphragm and see if it starts any easier with that
pickup cleaned
off. If it does, I'll store the new diaphragm in the
refrigerator for
future use.

And why are there two pickup tubes and why are they
different lengths?

[muzician21]

On Jun 4, 5:24*pm, "HLS" wrote:
"muzician21" wrote in message

...

I got a new diaphragm, but looking at the old diaphragm, it looks to
be intact and in good shape. The material still seems pliable, I held
it up to a light and can't find any breaks in it, including where the
choke plate rod is attached.

##### Look... When this sort of thing happens, most of us want to fix it,
not to analyze it. *


I wouldn't think the two would be mutually exclusive.


#### You must like to work on these engines.


To me there's a recreational aspect to it, absolutely.


I normally keep one or two of the diaphragms around. * But I wouldnt put an
old
one back in for anything. *It is a waste of time to fiddlefart with this


I don't like tossing out perfectly good parts and if I can get more
lifespan out of a part I'm all for it. Learning something and
troubleshooting are also part of the goal. If I just slap a bunch of
pieces on, even if it works I don't really learn what was causing the
problem.