My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

On May 17, 6:53*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

If you don't want to take the junk to the scrapyard yourself then call
the junk guy. Look in either Craigslist or your local paper usually
in the cars for sale section.

Cinder blocks are cheap and sometimes free, again try craigslist.

On May 17, 6:53*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.

R

On Sun, 17 May 2009 15:53:11 -0700 (PDT), JIMMIE
wrote:

My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie


I don't think I would use what you have, someone would likely
be happy to take them off your hands for the scrap value.

On the other hand, I can remember my father using some old bed
springs to re-enforce the front porch of our home about 60 years ago.
It looks like that slab is still there in one piece.

In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Limp Arbor wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie
I would not use them because as they corrode they will at first get
bigger (Think about the flakes that come off your drums & rotors).
Then as they corrode further you could be left with a substantial
void.

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.
Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 16:26:08 -0700 (PDT), RicodJour
wrote:


Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension.

Who likes tension? I don't like tension! For gosh sakes shut up about
the tension or I'll....

In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

This is MM's sister. MM has been taken to the hospital and won't be
available for posting until the court-ordered psychiatrist has
examined him and filed his report.

On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did something
change so that it rusts now?


Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

On May 17, 8:43*pm, mm wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "

wrote:
Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. *Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? *Did something
change so that it rusts now?

No, you've been sleeping or in a coma. It's always rusted.

R

On May 17, 8:01*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:

On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. *Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. *When it rusts it
expands. *This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. *In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

Hey, Sparky, if it doesn't take too much time away from you being
snarky, why don't you Google "code concrete rebar coverage"? You'll
learn something.

R

If he wants to get rid of the metal, just put it out by the curb on a
non-trash-pickup day and people driving by will pick it up as scrap metal to
sell to a recycle yard.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

On May 17, 8:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

Please, DAG. There's a hole in your education.

R

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 6:53=A0pm, JIMMIE wrote:
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.
One reason is that you'd be ****ing away money. Call up a scrap
dealer and ask what they pay for scrap iron, he's probably got a few
bucks on the hoof there.

Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?

Uh Huh. And I see plenty of bridge pillars around here (in salt country)
where the rebar has rusted, expanded in diameter, and whole sections of
surface concrete have spalled off, exposing the rebar grid. That is why
they have switched to epoxy-coated rebar for road work in this part of
country. Bulk iron buried deeply in the center fill of a porch stoop is
less likely to cause problems, but, but it offers no advantages over a
proper tied-and-blocked rebar armature to pour around. I'd haul it to
scrap dealer (if convenient), or offer it on craigslist or freecycle, if
I didn't feel like hauling it.

--
aem sends...

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

Tell him not to throw parts under the trailer to begin with. Scrap metal is
worth at least a 12 pack, that should get him moving.

"JIMMIE" wrote in message
...
My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

There are worth a lot more at the recycle center.

mm wrote:
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did something
change so that it rusts now?


Perhaps the problem in Florida is with buildings not kept adequately
painted, so there is more salt intrusion. Don't know the reasons.

Some problems with the issue in our condo, but nothing structural.
Building down the street, about 12 storey, had a great deal of work done
for the problem.

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

New Obama law, maybe. The Rusting of Rebar Act of 2009.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"mm" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 17 May 2009 20:33:40 -0400, "
wrote:

Big problem in Florida - lots of buildings with balconies
have had to
rework the concrete. Rebar rusted, expanded and cracked
the concrete.

Haven't they been using rebar for 50 or 100 years? Did
something
change so that it rusts now?

On May 18, 7:57*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. *Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. *If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. *Concrete is not waterproof. *It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. *Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. *Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. *Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

From the results, some of them obviously were.

Your stance is that you can throw steel into a concrete pour and it
doesn't do anything because, hell, rebar is steel. That's like saying
that you can pour gas anywhere into a car since a car runs on gas.
You know, nonsense.

Like I said, if you want to learn, Google the subject. I'll give you
a head start. This is from Wiki on reinforced concrete:

"Common failure modes of steel reinforced concrete
Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate strength, leading to
mechanical failure, or due to a reduction in its durability. Corrosion
and freeze/thaw cycles may damage poorly designed or constructed
reinforced concrete. When rebar corrodes, the oxidation products
(rust) expand and tends to flake, cracking the concrete and unbonding
the rebar from the concrete."

And this is from the Canadian Research Council:

"PREVENTING REBAR CORROSION IN CONCRETE STRUCTURES
by Shiyuan Qian

This article reviews the issue of rebar corrosion, discusses some of
the preventive technologies available, and presents information on
recent studies conducted by NRC’s Institute for Research in
Construction.

The corrosion of reinforcing steel bars is one of the main causes of
deterioration of reinforced concrete structures in North America. It
has become a serious, widespread problem, with repair costs now in the
billions of dollars annually. Whether the corroding rebars are seen
exposed on delaminated bridge decks or
piers, or observed in damaged parking garages, engineers and
contractors are all too familiar with the problem, as are anxious
property owners who call on them to provide solutions."

It's either odd that;
1). these guys are in collusion and making this stuff up
or
2). you've never noticed it.

My bet is on the second.

The main reason that the OP shouldn't throw the scrap iron in the
steps is because it is wasting money. The second reason is that the
random steel "reinforcing" will eventually cause problems.

I'm taking the liberty of cross posting this to some other groups with
more knowledge on construction than this one. Let's see who weighs in
and which way the verdict goes.

R

On May 18, 10:20*am, RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 7:57*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:





RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. *Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. *If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. *Concrete is not waterproof. *It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. *Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. *Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. *Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

From the results, some of them obviously were.

Your stance is that you can throw steel into a concrete pour and it
doesn't do anything because, hell, rebar is steel. *That's like saying
that you can pour gas anywhere into a car since a car runs on gas.
You know, nonsense.

Like I said, if you want to learn, Google the subject. *I'll give you
a head start. *This is from Wiki on reinforced concrete:

"Common failure modes of steel reinforced concrete
Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate strength, leading to
mechanical failure, or due to a reduction in its durability. Corrosion
and freeze/thaw cycles may damage poorly designed or constructed
reinforced concrete. When rebar corrodes, the oxidation products
(rust) expand and tends to flake, cracking the concrete and unbonding
the rebar from the concrete."

And this is from the Canadian Research Council:

"PREVENTING REBAR CORROSION IN CONCRETE STRUCTURES
by Shiyuan Qian

This article reviews the issue of rebar corrosion, discusses some of
the preventive technologies available, and presents information on
recent studies conducted by NRC’s Institute for Research in
Construction.

The corrosion of reinforcing steel bars is one of the main causes of
deterioration of reinforced concrete structures in North America. *It
has become a serious, widespread problem, with repair costs now in the
billions of dollars annually. *Whether the corroding rebars are seen
exposed on delaminated bridge decks or
piers, or observed in damaged parking garages, engineers and
contractors are all too familiar with the problem, as are anxious
property owners who call on them to provide solutions."

It's either odd that;
1). these guys are in collusion and making this stuff up
or
2). you've never noticed it.

My bet is on the second.

The main reason that the OP shouldn't throw the scrap iron in the
steps is because it is wasting money. *The second reason is that the
random steel "reinforcing" will eventually cause problems.

I'm taking the liberty of cross posting this to some other groups with
more knowledge on construction than this one. *Let's see who weighs in
and which way the verdict goes.

R

RicodJour,

You do realize you're wasting your time, don't you?

On May 18, 7:20*am, RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 7:57*am, (Doug Miller) wrote:



RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. *Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. *If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. *Concrete is not waterproof. *It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. *Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. *Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. *Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

From the results, some of them obviously were.

Your stance is that you can throw steel into a concrete pour and it
doesn't do anything because, hell, rebar is steel. *That's like saying
that you can pour gas anywhere into a car since a car runs on gas.
You know, nonsense.

Like I said, if you want to learn, Google the subject. *I'll give you
a head start. *This is from Wiki on reinforced concrete:

"Common failure modes of steel reinforced concrete
Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate strength, leading to
mechanical failure, or due to a reduction in its durability. Corrosion
and freeze/thaw cycles may damage poorly designed or constructed
reinforced concrete. When rebar corrodes, the oxidation products
(rust) expand and tends to flake, cracking the concrete and unbonding
the rebar from the concrete."

And this is from the Canadian Research Council:

"PREVENTING REBAR CORROSION IN CONCRETE STRUCTURES
by Shiyuan Qian

This article reviews the issue of rebar corrosion, discusses some of
the preventive technologies available, and presents information on
recent studies conducted by NRC’s Institute for Research in
Construction.

The corrosion of reinforcing steel bars is one of the main causes of
deterioration of reinforced concrete structures in North America. *It
has become a serious, widespread problem, with repair costs now in the
billions of dollars annually. *Whether the corroding rebars are seen
exposed on delaminated bridge decks or
piers, or observed in damaged parking garages, engineers and
contractors are all too familiar with the problem, as are anxious
property owners who call on them to provide solutions."

It's either odd that;
1). these guys are in collusion and making this stuff up
or
2). you've never noticed it.

My bet is on the second.

The main reason that the OP shouldn't throw the scrap iron in the
steps is because it is wasting money. *The second reason is that the
random steel "reinforcing" will eventually cause problems.

I'm taking the liberty of cross posting this to some other groups with
more knowledge on construction than this one. *Let's see who weighs in
and which way the verdict goes.

R

From what I've seen (& read) working in the civil structural field for
since 1988, the major cause of reinforced concrete failure is
inadequate coverage. Followed by poor quality concrete.

Depending on the "exposure" & environmental conditions, as little as
2" of coverage is spec'd, harsher conditons 3"+ or more.

Epoxy coated rebar is a "new, hot" thing but I'm not convinced that it
is "the" solution. Epoxy coating can get damaged during placement,
leaving bare steel.

I'll put my money on extra cover and good concrete, designed for the
local conditions.

Rebar that is fully encased in sound concrete with adequate coverage
will last a LONG time.

Too little coverage or poor quality concrete will allow the rebar to
begin to rust....the rusting rebar will "disassemble" the rest;
quickly at first as it attacks the surface rebar but much more slowly
as it progresses to the deeper rebar.

The Huntington Beach, Ca pier (the original one....ca1900) needed to
be replaced due to impending structural failure. One of the
engineers on the project (evaluation of the old pier) told me that IF
the coverage had been adequate, the peir could have been repair and
served another 50 years or more. But due to poor coverage the pier
had to be demo'd and replaced.

cheers
Bob

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=A0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?
It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. Concrete is not waterproof. It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinforced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

I think it is a matter of construction and maintenance, not engineering.
On our condo, there have been several areas where rust caused bursting
of the concrete. Perhaps rebar was too close to the surface, or cracks
in stucco not patched and painted, allowing moisture and salt intrusion.
Another place was a concrete sill by a patio slider. We also have
iron railings on our balconies and atrium deck which are embedded in
structural concrete. They are the same railings used inside condo units
- the anchor is embedded and then the railings bolt onto the achors.
The exterior ones rusted badly years ago, to the extent that some rusted
through and the attachment was no longer identifiable. Along the atrium
deck (second story), several places where the anchors protrude busted
out the concrete. After grinding out the rust and patching and
painting, they hold for several years without further bursting of the
concrete. Enough anchors intact that nothing is loose. Several years
ago, it was a pretty big issue for condominium management companies -
can probably google up more info if you are interested. Perhaps it
isn't an issue at all if not near salt water.

In article , RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 7:57=A0am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
RicodJour wrote:
On May 17, 8:00=3DA0pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?

It really surprises me that you have such problems understanding
this. =A0Your personal observation of those funky brown stains on
concrete structures everywhere should indicate that something is
rusting. =A0If you can't see what's rusting, and are keen enough to
realize that rust doesn't just magically appear on concrete, you'll
probably latch on that the rust is coming from inside the concrete.

In a nutshell. =A0Concrete is not waterproof. =A0It wicks up moisture.
The steel doesn't care that it is encased in concrete and will rust in
the presence of the H2O. =A0Concrete sucks in tension - something on the
order of 1/10 its strength in compression. =A0Constant tension on
concrete leads to cracking. =A0Cracking allows in more moisture, and the
cycle continues until the structure falls apart.

I guess all those engineers who've been building things with steel-reinfo=
rced
concrete for all these years must be completely ignorant, huh?

From the results, some of them obviously were.

Your stance is that you can throw steel into a concrete pour and it
doesn't do anything because, hell, rebar is steel. That's like saying
that you can pour gas anywhere into a car since a car runs on gas.
You know, nonsense.

Like I said, if you want to learn, Google the subject. I'll give you
a head start. This is from Wiki on reinforced concrete:

"Common failure modes of steel reinforced concrete
Reinforced concrete can fail due to inadequate strength, leading to
mechanical failure, or due to a reduction in its durability. Corrosion
and freeze/thaw cycles may damage poorly designed or constructed
reinforced concrete. When rebar corrodes, the oxidation products
(rust) expand and tends to flake, cracking the concrete and unbonding
the rebar from the concrete."

And this is from the Canadian Research Council:

"PREVENTING REBAR CORROSION IN CONCRETE STRUCTURES
by Shiyuan Qian

This article reviews the issue of rebar corrosion, discusses some of
the preventive technologies available, and presents information on
recent studies conducted by NRC=92s Institute for Research in
Construction.

The corrosion of reinforcing steel bars is one of the main causes of
deterioration of reinforced concrete structures in North America. It
has become a serious, widespread problem, with repair costs now in the
billions of dollars annually. Whether the corroding rebars are seen
exposed on delaminated bridge decks or
piers, or observed in damaged parking garages, engineers and
contractors are all too familiar with the problem, as are anxious
property owners who call on them to provide solutions."

It's either odd that;
1). these guys are in collusion and making this stuff up
or
2). you've never noticed it.

My bet is on the second.

I never said that corroding rebar in concrete couldn't cause a problem -- I'm
simply taking issue with your stand that putting steel into concrete
*automatically* poses a corrosion problem that will necessarily destroy the
concrete.

On May 18, 3:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:

I never said that corroding rebar in concrete couldn't cause a problem -- I'm
simply taking issue with your stand that putting steel into concrete
*automatically* poses a corrosion problem that will necessarily destroy the
concrete.

This is what I wrote in my first response to the OP:
"Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. When it rusts it
expands. This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.
"

I used the words tendency, would, tend to - there is nothing there
that says in all occasions all steel rusts. I also put the rusting
issue in second place in my short list of reasons. You made a massive
assumption that I was somehow referring to all situations and you got
snarky about it.

Your two comments;
"How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?"
and
"Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?"
imply that you equated an engine block dumped in a hole in the ground,
with engineered and correctly installed reinforced concrete. I took
exception to that.

I appreciate that you think the OP - a guy who wants to toss a
considerable quantity of scrap iron into a set of steps as filler - as
being so clued in to the correct amount of concrete coverage, and
would know how to suspend an engine block to insure that amount of
coverage. I have no such illusions.

R

On May 18, 4:31�pm, RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 3:00�pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:



I never said that corroding rebar in concrete couldn't cause a problem -- I'm
simply taking issue with your stand that putting steel into concrete
*automatically* poses a corrosion problem that will necessarily destroy the
concrete.

This is what I wrote in my first response to the OP:
"Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. �When it rusts it
expands. �This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. �In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.
"

I used the words tendency, would, tend to - there is nothing there
that says in all occasions all steel rusts. �I also put the rusting
issue in second place in my short list of reasons. �You made a massive
assumption that I was somehow referring to all situations and you got
snarky about it.

Your two comments;
"How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?"
and
"Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?"
imply that you equated an engine block dumped in a hole in the ground,
with engineered and correctly installed reinforced concrete. �I took
exception to that.

I appreciate that you think the OP - a guy who wants to toss a
considerable quantity of scrap iron into a set of steps as filler - as
being so clued in to the correct amount of concrete coverage, and
would know how to suspend an engine block to insure that amount of
coverage. �I have no such illusions.

R

ideally all rebar should be non magnetic stainless, which never
rusts.........

On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



ideally all rebar should be non magnetic stainless, which never
rusts.........

Ideally all people should understand the various properties of
'stainless steel'... g Stainless rusts just fine when *not* exposed
to air!

On May 18, 4:31*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 3:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:



I never said that corroding rebar in concrete couldn't cause a problem -- I'm
simply taking issue with your stand that putting steel into concrete
*automatically* poses a corrosion problem that will necessarily destroy the
concrete.

This is what I wrote in my first response to the OP:
"Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. *When it rusts it
expands. *This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. *In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.
"

I used the words tendency, would, tend to - there is nothing there
that says in all occasions all steel rusts. *I also put the rusting
issue in second place in my short list of reasons. *You made a massive
assumption that I was somehow referring to all situations and you got
snarky about it.

Your two comments;
"How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?"
and
"Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?"
imply that you equated an engine block dumped in a hole in the ground,
with engineered and correctly installed reinforced concrete. *I took
exception to that.

I appreciate that you think the OP - a guy who wants to toss a
considerable quantity of scrap iron into a set of steps as filler - as
being so clued in to the correct amount of concrete coverage, and
would know how to suspend an engine block to insure that amount of
coverage. *I have no such illusions.

R

So, Mister Smartypants, if all concrete deteriorates if there are
voids in it where water can get, then where is Jimmy Hoffa and why
hasn't the concrete around him deteriorated yet?

See !! There's a major flaw in your theory.

On May 18, 7:18�pm, PeterD wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



ideally all rebar should be non magnetic stainless, which never
rusts.........

Ideally all people should understand the various properties of
'stainless steel'... g Stainless rusts just fine when *not* exposed
to air!

I would like a link to that! I was told non magnetic stainless doesnt
rust.

What makes this problem worse in florida was the use of beach sand
containg salt.

this info courtesy of this old house episode

On Tue, 19 May 2009 04:40:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

On May 18, 7:18?pm, PeterD wrote:
On Mon, 18 May 2009 13:57:23 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:



ideally all rebar should be non magnetic stainless, which never
rusts.........

Ideally all people should understand the various properties of
'stainless steel'... g Stainless rusts just fine when *not* exposed
to air!

I would like a link to that! I was told non magnetic stainless doesnt
rust.

I'll see what I can dig up. This is 'common knowledge' among boat
builders, but not others. Problem being that the stainless looks
really good on the exposed surfaces, then when you try to remove it,
you find a 'ton' of rust on the burried parts. You could also try
searching various marine sites too, I'm sure you will find it.

FWIW, I didn't believe it when I was told first about the problem,
then managed to see it as I did work on boats.


What makes this problem worse in florida was the use of beach sand
containg salt.

I think the entire state of Florida contains salt! g WHere in
Florida are you, I'm frequnently in Tampa, and when to high school in
NPR.


this info courtesy of this old house episode

On Mon, 18 May 2009 19:26:12 -0700 (PDT), Pat
wrote:

On May 18, 4:31*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On May 18, 3:00*pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:



I never said that corroding rebar in concrete couldn't cause a problem -- I'm
simply taking issue with your stand that putting steel into concrete
*automatically* poses a corrosion problem that will necessarily destroy the
concrete.

This is what I wrote in my first response to the OP:
"Another reason is that iron has a tendency to rust. *When it rusts it
expands. *This would put the concrete in tension and concrete really
doesn't like to be put in tension. *In other words it would tend to
break up the steps.

Use rocks, brick, or other busted up concrete if you need some filler.
"

I used the words tendency, would, tend to - there is nothing there
that says in all occasions all steel rusts. *I also put the rusting
issue in second place in my short list of reasons. *You made a massive
assumption that I was somehow referring to all situations and you got
snarky about it.

Your two comments;
"How are they going to get bigger while they're encased in concrete?"
and
"Oh, for heaven's sake. Haven't you ever heard of rebar?"
imply that you equated an engine block dumped in a hole in the ground,
with engineered and correctly installed reinforced concrete. *I took
exception to that.

I appreciate that you think the OP - a guy who wants to toss a
considerable quantity of scrap iron into a set of steps as filler - as
being so clued in to the correct amount of concrete coverage, and
would know how to suspend an engine block to insure that amount of
coverage. *I have no such illusions.

R

So, Mister Smartypants, if all concrete deteriorates if there are
voids in it where water can get, then where is Jimmy Hoffa and why
hasn't the concrete around him deteriorated yet?

See !! There's a major flaw in your theory.

No friggin' way. That simply means that virtually any cement highway
in NY, NJ, or MI is suspect! They are all full of holes!


(I remember reading a few months ago about the city of NY digging up a
location and finding a bunch of bodies: a mafia graveyard, apparently,
with little hope of ever identifying those burried in the hole!)

Regardless we all know Jimmy Hoffa is alive and well, living with
Elvis in North Dakota.

On May 19, 9:19*am, PeterD wrote:
On Tue, 19 May 2009 04:40:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would like a link to that! I was told non magnetic stainless doesnt
rust.

I'll see what I can dig up. This is 'common knowledge' among boat
builders, but not others. Problem being that the stainless looks
really good on the exposed surfaces, then when you try to remove it,
you find a 'ton' of rust on the burried parts. You could also try
searching various marine sites too, I'm sure you will find it.

FWIW, I didn't believe it when I was told first about the problem,
then managed to see it as I did work on boats.

Oxygen is inseparable from oxidation (rusting). I think it's more
likely that moisture was getting into those hidden areas and staying
there longer.

R

In article
,
JIMMIE wrote:

My friend is building some new concrete steps to his back porch. He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron he
wants to get rid of . If these items are clean of fluids is there any
reason we couldnt use them as fill in the steps.

Jimmie

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

I like it!

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

Presently about 4 cents a pound around here. The OP wrote "He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron".
How many is some? Not one, probably not two unless the guy chooses
words at random, so three of more blocks, figure a couple hundred
pounds per, brake drums don't float away... I'd hazard a wild-assed
guess of between a quarter and half a ton. So maybe twenty or forty
bucks. Around here they'll come get it - they pay less, but it's free
rubbish removal.

R

On May 19, 9:35*am, RicodJour wrote:
On May 19, 9:19*am, PeterD wrote:

On Tue, 19 May 2009 04:40:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would like a link to that! I was told non magnetic stainless doesnt
rust.

I'll see what I can dig up. This is 'common knowledge' among boat
builders, but not others. Problem being that the stainless looks
really good on the exposed surfaces, then when you try to remove it,
you find a 'ton' of rust on the burried parts. You could also try
searching various marine sites too, I'm sure you will find it.

FWIW, I didn't believe it when I was told first about the problem,
then managed to see it as I did work on boats.

Oxygen is inseparable from oxidation (rusting). *I think it's more
likely that moisture was getting into those hidden areas and staying
there longer.

R

I don't know the science of it (or very much else for that matter),
but I know that if you use a stainless steel bolt, you are NOT
supposed to use a stainless steel nut or else the threaded area where
they touch will corrode all to heck and you won't be able to get them
apart. There is something, but I don't know what, about stainless to
stainless and a lack of O2.

On May 19, 2:06*pm, Pat wrote:

I don't know the science of it (or very much else for that matter),
but I know that if you use a stainless steel bolt, you are NOT
supposed to use a stainless steel nut or else the threaded area where
they touch will corrode all to heck and you won't be able to get them
apart. * There is something, but I don't know what, about stainless to
stainless and a lack of O2.

You can use stainless bolts and nuts, but there are good practices
when doing so, just as everything else in life.
http://www.estainlesssteel.com/gallingofstainless.html

PeterD was saying the stainless rusts when there's no oxygen, and
that's what I was addressing, that you addressed, that I just
addressed. Okay, I'm going to go up on a ladder now, I'm getting
dizzy down here.

R

On May 19, 12:47*pm, RicodJour wrote:
On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:



After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.
Skip the concrete altogether.

I like it!

*(last i checked, scrap steel isn't worth the gas to drive it to the
recycling center.)

Presently about 4 cents a pound around here. *The OP wrote "He
has some old chevy blocks , brake drums and general automotive iron".
How many is some? *Not one, probably not two unless the guy chooses
words at random, so three of more blocks, figure a couple hundred
pounds per, brake drums don't float away... *I'd hazard a wild-assed
guess of between a quarter and half a ton. *So maybe twenty or forty
bucks. *Around here they'll come get it - they pay less, but it's free
rubbish removal.

R

No one will come get it and its about a 20 mile drive one way to haul
it off. It would probably take two trips, If we cant put it in the
steps we are going to bury it. The junk came with the house. There is
a welder, we may weld some of the stuff together so it will actually
become part of the structure of the steps instead of just randomly
placing them inside.

Half ton sounds about right.

Jimmie

On May 19, 2:06*pm, Pat wrote:
On May 19, 9:35*am, RicodJour wrote:





On May 19, 9:19*am, PeterD wrote:

On Tue, 19 May 2009 04:40:05 -0700 (PDT), bob haller
wrote:

I would like a link to that! I was told non magnetic stainless doesnt
rust.

I'll see what I can dig up. This is 'common knowledge' among boat
builders, but not others. Problem being that the stainless looks
really good on the exposed surfaces, then when you try to remove it,
you find a 'ton' of rust on the burried parts. You could also try
searching various marine sites too, I'm sure you will find it.

FWIW, I didn't believe it when I was told first about the problem,
then managed to see it as I did work on boats.

Oxygen is inseparable from oxidation (rusting). *I think it's more
likely that moisture was getting into those hidden areas and staying
there longer.

R

I don't know the science of it (or very much else for that matter),
but I know that if you use a stainless steel bolt, you are NOT
supposed to use a stainless steel nut or else the threaded area where
they touch will corrode all to heck and you won't be able to get them
apart. * There is something, but I don't know what, about stainless to
stainless and a lack of O2.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Anti sieze compund

On May 19, 3:09*pm, JIMMIE wrote:
On May 19, 12:47*pm, RicodJour wrote:



On May 19, 11:58*am, Smitty Two wrote:

After reading 26 other replies, concerning the alleged value* of scrap
metal and the problems of rusting rebar, I'd say the best thing to do
would be to fashion the auto parts into steps by welding them together.

JIMMIE wrote:

No one will come get it and its about a 20 mile drive one way to haul
it off. It would probably take two trips, If we cant put it in the
steps we are going to bury it. The junk came with the house. There is
a welder, we may weld some of the stuff together so it will actually
become part of the structure of the steps instead of just randomly
placing them inside.

Half ton sounds about right.


I have a few properties in various locations and whenever I want to get rid
of scrap metal I just put it out by the curb. Someone always sees it,
stops, and loads it into a pickup truck they are drivng that is full of
other scrap metal. I never call anyone to ask them to come and pick it up.
If it's a property on a reasonably busy street, it's usually gone within an
hour or two. For the properties that are on side residential streets, it
often takes longer, but never more than about 1/2-day to a day for someone
to stop and take it. I put everything out there -- cast iron, sewer pipes,
iron, steel, cast iron tubs, lead, and of course aluminim, copper, copper
wire, etc. It doesn't matter what I put out there -- they always take it.

I'd bet that if you tried putting it out there, it will get taken. You
could try it with some of the smaller pieces first to see what happens. The
good part is that it does get recycled and reused -- which I like. And, the
poeple who pick it up get a few bucks for it -- that's why they stop -- and
it's easy for them because they are not making a special trip. They just
see it along the road, stop and throw it in their truck, and when the truck
is full, they take it all to a recycle place.