In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?

In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?

You forgot the sealer.

You're relying on a properly-installed and well-maintained floor.
Properly-installed means all the layers were put down as specified by
the manufacturer, without gaps or cracks. Well-maintained means
applying sealer every couple of years (more often if heavily used),
repairing any chips or cracks, and mopping up spills as soon as they
occur.

None of the layers you mention is actually waterproof except the tile,
and that's only waterproof if it's glazed. (Everyone feel free to point
out some type of tile that I don't know about.) The sealer fills small
cracks, including the pores in the grout, but it wears out.

I can tell you from experience that water gets through or around tile.
I recently relaid a bunch that came loose from plywood because of a
leaky roof. (The client didn't want if fixed right, because he plans to
tear the building down in a year or two.)

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?


Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it. My understanding is
that backerboard absorbs some water, which then evaporates into the wall space
and through the other side. I was told NOT to use a vapor barrier on the back of
the backerboard to avoid mildew problems. It traps the moisture in the
backerboard. I assume the same would be true for floors.

There are products like Redgard which can be applied to the backerboard to
waterproof it before applying the tile. I assume that any moisture absorbed
would then have to evaporate back through the grout.

Epoxy grout is probably a lot closer to waterproof, but more trouble to put on,
and more expensive.

wrote:
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?

A mop.

--

dadiOH
____________________________

dadiOH's dandies v3.06...
....a help file of info about MP3s, recording from
LP/cassette and tips & tricks on this and that.
Get it at http://mysite.verizon.net/xico

On Jan 5, 10:57*pm, wrote:
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? *I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. *What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? *Is it just the thin-set?

Rely on the towel and floor mats you hang to dry.

On Jan 5, 11:57*pm, wrote:
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? *I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. *What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? *Is it just the thin-set?

Sounds like you are doing the right job. Don't worry about excess
water, its the nature of the beast. Just use a towel.

On Jan 5, 11:57�pm, wrote:
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? �I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. �What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? �Is it just the thin-set?

Water will stop at the lowest point. I don't know how much water
you're talking, but if you have alot, it may get under the baseboard
and flow under the tile and such anyway.

Women are like tile. If you lay them right the first time, you can
walk on them forever. ~~~~it is a joke, for those with no sense of
humor.

Hank

why is there so much water on the floor?

s
wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?

You can try the Schluter water proofing method under the tiles, but if you
have that much water maybe you should slope the floor down to a drain and
add a "dam" across the door threshold to keep the water in.

wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?

wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?


*I painted my underlayment plywood with exterior primer and paint to prevent
water from being absorbed into it. Ideally you want to stop the water at
the tile surface. Use caulk around the backerboard edges. Use a grout
sealer or an epoxy grout such as Laticrete Spectra-Lok (My choice).

On Jan 5, 11:57�pm, wrote:
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? �I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. �What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? �Is it just the thin-set?

hopefully concrete backerboad and use cement to seal all seams

wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?


My understanding is that you want at least 1 1/4" of wood under the backerboard
to get the necessary stiffness.

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it. My understanding is
that backerboard absorbs some water, which then evaporates into the wall space
and through the other side. I was told NOT to use a vapor barrier on the back of
the backerboard to avoid mildew problems. It traps the moisture in the
backerboard. I assume the same would be true for floors.


So what about tiled walls in the shower.. the water impacts directly
on the tile and grout...

Mark

wrote in message
...

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it. My understanding is
that backerboard absorbs some water, which then evaporates into the wall
space
and through the other side. I was told NOT to use a vapor barrier on the back
of
the backerboard to avoid mildew problems. It traps the moisture in the
backerboard. I assume the same would be true for floors.


So what about tiled walls in the shower.. the water impacts directly
on the tile and grout...

Uhhmmm? That's what I was talking about.

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it. My
understanding is that backerboard absorbs some water, which then
evaporates into the wall space and through the other side. I was
told NOT to use a vapor barrier on the back of the backerboard to
avoid mildew problems. It traps the moisture in the backerboard. I
assume the same would be true for floors.

So what about tiled walls in the shower.. the water impacts directly
on the tile and grout...

Grout is water-resistant, but not waterproof. It can stand up to 15
minutes of water, especially on a wall, but not to hours of exposure.

Shower floors have a waterproof pan underneath to stop the water that
gets through the grout. Walls rely on you getting out of the shower and
letting them dry.

It's _still_ a good idea to seal the grout in the shower.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

Steve Barker wrote:
why is there so much water on the floor?

s
wrote in message
...
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot of water on the floor), where does the water stop? I know
Backerboard is water-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorb water. What are we relying on to keep the water from soaking
the plywood? Is it just the thin-set?



No kids (or dogs), huh?

--
aem sends....

On Jan 6, 2:35*pm, aemeijers wrote:
Steve Barker wrote:
why is there so muchwateron the floor?

s
wrote in message
....
In a typical bathroom floor tile installation you have the following
sequence:

Plywood subfloor, Thin-Set, Backerboard, Thin-Set, Tile/Grout.

If the grout is not perfectly sealed and the bathroom is heavily used
(with a lot ofwateron the floor), where does thewaterstop? *I know
Backerboard iswater-damage-resistant, but I hear it can wick and
absorbwater. *What are we relying on to keep thewaterfrom soaking
the plywood? *Is it just the thin-set?

No kids (or dogs), huh?

--
aem sends....- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local Big
Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on the
bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor. Is this
really necessary or is it overkill?

I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local Big
Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on the
bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor. Is this
really necessary or is it overkill?

Based on some of the floors I've seen, it's not overkill.

A client called just today to have six one-inch tiles put back down on
her shower floor. That's normally a quick fix--chisel off most of the
old thinset, then put it back down with either thinset or mastic.

I removed the old tiles, which were lying loose in place, and found a
hole full of sand. The old concrete has decayed down at least two
inches. Of course, they don't have the money to pay for the correct fix
(put in a new base, pan, etc.), so I'll get out the junk, fill the void
with concrete, and put the loose tiles back with thinset.

This is a good reason to use a membrane.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

On Jan 13, 9:19*pm, "SteveBell" wrote:
I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local Big
Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on the
bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor. *Is this
really necessary or is it overkill?

Based on some of the floors I've seen, it's not overkill.

A client called just today to have six one-inch tiles put back down on
her shower floor. That's normally a quick fix--chisel off most of the
old thinset, then put it back down with either thinset or mastic.

I removed the old tiles, which were lying loose in place, and found a
hole full of sand. The old concrete has decayed down at least two
inches. Of course, they don't have the money to pay for the correct fix
(put in a new base, pan, etc.), so I'll get out the junk, fill the void
with concrete, and put the loose tiles back with thinset.

This is a good reason to use a membrane.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

Thanks. Just to clarify, I'm inquiring about the bathroom floor not
the floor (pan) in the shower. Does this change the answer?

On Jan 13, 9:19*pm, "SteveBell" wrote:
I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local
Big Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on
the bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor.
*Is this really necessary or is it overkill?

Based on some of the floors I've seen, it's not overkill.

A client called just today to have six one-inch tiles put back
down on her shower floor. That's normally a quick fix--chisel off
most of the old thinset, then put it back down with either thinset
or mastic.

I removed the old tiles, which were lying loose in place, and
found a hole full of sand. The old concrete has decayed down at
least two inches. Of course, they don't have the money to pay for
the correct fix (put in a new base, pan, etc.), so I'll get out
the junk, fill the void with concrete, and put the loose tiles
back with thinset.

This is a good reason to use a membrane.

Thanks. Just to clarify, I'm inquiring about the bathroom floor not
the floor (pan) in the shower. Does this change the answer?

Only a little. The last _major_ tile repair I did, the tile was laid on
a plywood subfloor. A ceiling leak had caused the thinset to release
from the plywood. A membrane would have prevented that. A ceiling leak
is pretty much the same as a sink leak or a teenager who can't figure
out how to mop up water after a shower.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

On Jan 6, 4:57*am, "Bob F" wrote:

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it.

How much is some, and how long must so much stand?
-----

- gpsman

On Jan 6, 4:57*am, "Bob F" wrote:

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it.

How much is some, and how long must so much stand?

Well, that's a complicated question. It will depend on lots of things,
like:
* Brand
* Sanded/unsanded
* Plain/latex-modified
* Vertical/horizontal installation
* Joint width
* Tile type -- porous/nonporous
* Installation quality -- pro/talented amateur/hopeless hack (cracks,
ya know)
* Sealed/unsealed

Grout is just a fancy form of concrete. Have you ever been to Boulder
Dam? Water seeps through it. If water can get through hundreds of feet
of concrete, I assume it can get through 1/4" of grout.

I assume all concrete products are porous, and I apply sealers.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

On Jan 14, 5:03*pm, "SteveBell" wrote:
On Jan 6, 4:57*am, "Bob F" wrote:

Grout is not waterproof. Some water will get through it.

How much is some, and how long must so much stand?

Well, that's a complicated question. It will depend on lots of things,
like:
** Brand
** Sanded/unsanded
** Plain/latex-modified
** Vertical/horizontal installation
** Joint width
** Tile type -- porous/nonporous
** Installation quality -- pro/talented amateur/hopeless hack (cracks,
ya know)
** Sealed/unsealed

Grout is just a fancy form of concrete. Have you ever been to Boulder
Dam? Water seeps through it. If water can get through hundreds of feet
of concrete, I assume it can get through 1/4" of grout.

Well, whatever you do, do not consider any differences of pressure.

I assume all concrete products are porous, and I apply sealers.

Have you checked with any tiled pool owners?
-----

gpsman

"SteveBell" wrote in news:gkjskq$k8i$1
@reader.motzarella.org:


I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local Big
Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on the
bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor. Is this
really necessary or is it overkill?

Based on some of the floors I've seen, it's not overkill.

A client called just today to have six one-inch tiles put back down on
her shower floor.

Steve: I do a lot of **** on foreclosed houses I actually live in.
Nothing for others for $. You mean people actually call a repair person
to fix 6 little tiles??? So trivial! They can't figure out how to do
this? Or maybe this is someone who physically cannot do these things.

That's normally a quick fix--chisel off most of the
old thinset, then put it back down with either thinset or mastic.

I removed the old tiles, which were lying loose in place, and found a
hole full of sand. The old concrete has decayed down at least two
inches. Of course, they don't have the money to pay for the correct fix
(put in a new base, pan, etc.), so I'll get out the junk, fill the void
with concrete, and put the loose tiles back with thinset.

This is a good reason to use a membrane.

You mean people actually call a repair person
to fix 6 little tiles??? So trivial! They can't figure out how to do
this? Or maybe this is someone who physically cannot do these things.

This case is an elderly couple--they're not capable of doing this stuff.

Some people don't know what to do and want me to teach them. Last week
I ran a dryer exhaust vent for a young attorney who had just bought an
older house. He wanted me to show him how to do it. He gave me a three
hundred percent tip. :-0

The usual cases are people who are intimidated, don't have time, or
don't want to be bothered. I just painted a bunch of inside doors for a
guy. He pays me $40 and hour while he earns more than that doing
whatever he does.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

On Jan 14, 12:19*am, "SteveBell" wrote:
I did a little checking in some of the tiling books at the local Big
Box store and many of them advocate a membrane be put down on the
bathroom floor to help prevent water getting to the subfloor. *Is this
really necessary or is it overkill?

Based on some of the floors I've seen, it's not overkill.

A client called just today to have six one-inch tiles put back down on
her shower floor. That's normally a quick fix--chisel off most of the
old thinset, then put it back down with either thinset or mastic.

I removed the old tiles, which were lying loose in place, and found a
hole full of sand. The old concrete has decayed down at least two
inches. Of course, they don't have the money to pay for the correct fix
(put in a new base, pan, etc.), so I'll get out the junk, fill the void
with concrete, and put the loose tiles back with thinset.

This is a good reason to use a membrane.

--
Steve Bell
New Life Home Improvement
Arlington, TX USA

About 25 years ago when the mortar base of my bathroom floor (not the
shower, like you described) started to go bad, I fixed it like this:

Too poor at the time to replace the entire floor, I squared off the
section where the tiles were popping and cleaned out the mortar back
to where it was solid - about 12" x 18". I then piled up various
thicknesses of 1 x material and plywood until I matched the height of
the surrounding tile and screwed it to the subfloor.

Did you know that bathroom rugs are bigger than 12" x 18"? ;-)

When I finally got around to renovating the bathroom I discovered that
the joist spacing where the tiles were popping was 20" OC while the
rest of the floor was 16" OC. This also happened to be right in front
of the sink. So whoever framed the room put the least amount of
support under the area that probably needed the most.

I added an extra joist before replacing the subfloor and retiling.