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-   -   Why the wide prong on a plug? (https://www.diybanter.com/home-repair/263501-why-wide-prong-plug.html)

marlboroman October 27th 08 05:39 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
..

metspitzer October 27th 08 05:45 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman
wrote:

Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.


You don't have much to do. Do you? :)

Donna Ohl October 27th 08 05:48 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.


Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?

The Daring Dufas[_5_] October 27th 08 06:29 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.


The wide blade is the neutral, the narrow blade
is the hot. Some appliances may have the neutral
attached to the metal chassis parts inside. Did
I hear "shock hazard"? I used to work with an
idiot who would cut the ground pin off plugs.

The hot wire is switched. If you grind down the
neutral and plug it into the hot side, the item
will be energized when the switch is off.

TDD

mm October 27th 08 10:20 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.


Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?


What do they mean by double insulated?

One insulation is the plastic case. Maybe the other one is
figurative, that they do the rest of the wiring as if it were a metal
case?

[email protected] October 27th 08 11:30 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.


Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?


Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh


Bryce October 27th 08 02:36 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.


Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?


Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh


Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html

Phil Again October 27th 08 03:11 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700, marlboroman wrote:

Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like all
of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic, which
does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the power
line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of having
that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!! .


Short Answer: Lawyers and (product) Insurance.

Too Much Information (TMI) answer:

NEMA, National Electrical Manufacturing Association sets the standards
for all US Electrical plugs and receptacles. Search for a Wikipedia
write ups on NEMA standards. There are links at the bottom of the
Wikipedia to NEMA configuration charts. Your plugs are NEMA 1-15 type
plugs.

The National Fire Protection Association publishes the National
Electrical Code. The NFPA has adapted the NEMA standard as part of its
new building code for Electrical Safety. Many states adopt the NFPA
electrical code standards in their building code and statutes for
enforcement of such building codes.

Underwriters Laboratories, inc, the testing agency for Insurance
companies that issue policies against product liability, adopts the
National Electrical Code (which includes the NEMA standards) as part of
its product safety testing and check list.

Thus, in order to purchase product liability insurance a maker of
consumer products, like a homeowner's hand drill, needs to submit the
product to UL for safety testing. UL will give its blessing only
provided ...... (yada, yada, yada)

Thus the products you buy will have a narrow (hot or black wire) and a
wide blade (neutral or White wire indicated by the "W" on the NEMA 1-15
standard.) Even if the general public safety intent and need for the
narrow / wide blade makes no difference in a specific manufacturer's
product.


The Daring Dufas[_5_] October 27th 08 03:38 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Claude Hopper wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.


I have snapped many of these wide blades down to size with big dikes
because they would not fit into the older extension cords. Snapped off a
few ground prongs too. Now, 20 years later things are seeming to be
catching up to new safety plugs. I still see some appliances being sold
with only 2 prongs though, why is that?
It would have been better to have redesigned the plug completely instead
of just widening a prong and adding a prong. A completely different plug
would have been almost impossible to modify to fit the old styles and
less safety bypasses would have been done.

I keep several adapters in my tool box.
They're very useful when I have to get
power at an old outlet.

TDD

Stormin Mormon October 27th 08 03:47 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
The "polarized" plug is for extra user safety. AC outlets have
polarity-specific sockets because some devices can easily become dangerous
if the polarized device is plugged in backwards. This happens when the
switch or fuse inside the appliance is designed to disconnect only the "hot"
and not the "neutral" wire when the device is switched off because it is
cheaper than switches that disconnect both wires. The "neutral" wire is
typically connected to ground at the main panel, so it is safer to use the
switch to open the "hot" wire.

The device could still be "hot" even when the switch is off. Without a
polarized plug, you can't tell which wire the switch will disconnect and may
receive a shocking surprise!

In theory, safe devices are designed to keep a user from touching either the
hot or the neutral. designers know which wires will be "hot" inside the
device, they can take extra precautions to make sure they cannot break apart
and electrify anything a user can touch. A broken "hot" wire can electrocute
a user. Therefore, many appliances now have a polarized plug so the switch
always disconnects the "hot" side.

A so-called "double-insulated" (IEC Class II) device may have a
non-polarized plug because the same safe design has been made for BOTH
conductors No single internal fault would be likely to cause an
electrocution hazard.

Furthermore, even with a polarized plug, a single internal fault can be
deadly in an ordinary appliance. The third prong (ground) can save your life
if there is an internal fault of the hot touching exposed metal, and a GFCI
can save your life if there is an internal fault of the neutral to exposed
metal (where you could otherwise become the missing "neutral" connection to
ground as you are electrocuted).

You are an ignorant fool to grind down the polarized plug.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"marlboroman" wrote in message
...
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
..



Stormin Mormon October 27th 08 03:48 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by being taught. Others just
have to go **** on the electric fence themselves.

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.




The hot wire is switched. If you grind down the
neutral and plug it into the hot side, the item
will be energized when the switch is off.

TDD



Stormin Mormon October 27th 08 03:49 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
The rest of the time, you can have the safety of having a three wire
grounded device. I'm with you, I do carry the three to two "cheaters".

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"The Daring Dufas" wrote in message
...

I keep several adapters in my tool box.
They're very useful when I have to get
power at an old outlet.

TDD



HerHusband October 27th 08 04:02 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?


Safety? The wide terminal is the neutral, and it ensures you are switching
the "hot" lead and not the neutral. It's also one more level of protection
in case the tool shorts out inside.

Is the only reason to **** off the user
particularly those of us who are older


While you may have grown up with the old two prong plugs, that doesn't mean
they were safe. The wide prong and a third ground terminal were added for a
reason. Just like open knife switches, knob and tube wiring, and other
hazards were eventually replaced with safer alternatives.

If it ****es you off to only be able to insert the plug into a socket one
way, maybe you shouldn't be using the tool in the first place... I, for
one, appreciate the extra safety measures. There are more important things
to worry about than the orientation of a plug. In fact, when given a
choice, I always choose the tool or other fixture that has a third ground
terminal. Better safe, than sorry...

My grinder does a quick job of
narrowing that wide prong though!


How much time does it take you to defeat the built-in safety measure
compared to just flipping the plug over?

The odds are you'll never have a problem with your modifications, but that
one time when your tool shorts out or you're changing a bit out on a wet
lawn, your family members may regret your decision to modify the plug...

And how will you feel if your grandchild comes over to use your tools
someday and gets electrocuted because you defeated one of the safety
features?

Anthony

The Daring Dufas[_5_] October 27th 08 04:21 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Stormin Mormon wrote:
Some people learn by reading. Some people learn by being taught. Others just
have to go **** on the electric fence themselves.

A famous man once wrote something to the effect:
"Experience is a fools best teacher." My father
taught us how to do electrical wiring when we
were kids on the farm. I have experienced shock
therapy many times over the years. I would hope
others could learn from my experience.

TDD

Bob F October 27th 08 04:21 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 

"Claude Hopper" wrote in message
...
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.


I have snapped many of these wide blades down to size with big dikes
because they would not fit into the older extension cords. Snapped off a
few ground prongs too. Now, 20 years later things are seeming to be
catching up to new safety plugs. I still see some appliances being sold
with only 2 prongs though, why is that?
It would have been better to have redesigned the plug completely instead
of just widening a prong and adding a prong. A completely different plug
would have been almost impossible to modify to fit the old styles and
less safety bypasses would have been done.


Except for the need for "upward compatibility". How would you like to move to a
new house, and have nothing plug in?



DGDevin October 27th 08 05:00 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
marlboroman wrote:

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!


It figures someone who smokes would think that's a good idea....



EXT October 27th 08 06:51 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 

"Claude Hopper" wrote in message
...
Phil Again wrote:
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700, marlboroman wrote:

Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like all
of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic, which
does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the power
line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of having
that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!! .


Short Answer: Lawyers and (product) Insurance.

Too Much Information (TMI) answer:

NEMA, National Electrical Manufacturing Association sets the standards
for all US Electrical plugs and receptacles. Search for a Wikipedia
write ups on NEMA standards. There are links at the bottom of the
Wikipedia to NEMA configuration charts. Your plugs are NEMA 1-15 type
plugs.

The National Fire Protection Association publishes the National
Electrical Code. The NFPA has adapted the NEMA standard as part of its
new building code for Electrical Safety. Many states adopt the NFPA
electrical code standards in their building code and statutes for
enforcement of such building codes.

Underwriters Laboratories, inc, the testing agency for Insurance
companies that issue policies against product liability, adopts the
National Electrical Code (which includes the NEMA standards) as part of
its product safety testing and check list.

Thus, in order to purchase product liability insurance a maker of
consumer products, like a homeowner's hand drill, needs to submit the
product to UL for safety testing. UL will give its blessing only
provided ...... (yada, yada, yada)

Thus the products you buy will have a narrow (hot or black wire) and a
wide blade (neutral or White wire indicated by the "W" on the NEMA 1-15
standard.) Even if the general public safety intent and need for the
narrow / wide blade makes no difference in a specific manufacturer's
product.


This is called bureaucratic bull****.


While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking. Don't sweat over such minor stuff, when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


Dave Martindale October 27th 08 09:06 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Bryce writes:

Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.


I actually own an older Dremel tool that has a plastic coupling to
isolate the output shaft. The motor has a pair of bearings, and the
output shaft has another pair of bearings. The two shafts are in line
but don't touch, and a splined plastic coupling connects them.

It works fine for transmitting rotation, but it makes the tool almost
unusable for routing and some grinding and milling operations. The
output shaft is just a short stub, and the bearings that hold it are
only half an inch apart. So any side load on the cutting tool has
plenty of leverage in applying force to those bearings, which are only
held by the plastic housing. The result is lots of chatter.

I notice that all of the more recent Dremel tools I've looked inside
have a single shaft from chuck all the way back to the rear end of the
motor. So there are only 2 bearings, and the chuck is better at
withstanding side loads.

But the newer Dremels are *still* double insulated. I think they do it
with insulation between the steel stampings that make up the armature
magnetics and the motor shaft. So if the insulation on the armature
wire wears through and touches the steel, the armature could become
"hot" but the shaft would still be isolated.

Dave

The Daring Dufas[_5_] October 27th 08 09:16 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
TD wrote:
The Daring Dufas wrote in
:

marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.

The wide blade is the neutral, the narrow blade
is the hot. Some appliances may have the neutral
attached to the metal chassis parts inside. Did
I hear "shock hazard"? I used to work with an
idiot who would cut the ground pin off plugs.

The hot wire is switched. If you grind down the
neutral and plug it into the hot side, the item
will be energized when the switch is off.

TDD


The companies use it in case you need an extension cord. Then you'll be
forced to buy an extension cord with the wide blade.


I'm not going to call you names but that's
the silliest thing I've seen posted in a while.

TDD

Bud-- October 28th 08 12:13 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Phil Again wrote:

Short Answer: Lawyers and (product) Insurance.

Too Much Information (TMI) answer:

NEMA, National Electrical Manufacturing Association sets the standards
for all US Electrical plugs and receptacles. Search for a Wikipedia
write ups on NEMA standards. There are links at the bottom of the
Wikipedia to NEMA configuration charts. Your plugs are NEMA 1-15 type
plugs.

The National Fire Protection Association publishes the National
Electrical Code. The NFPA has adapted the NEMA standard as part of its
new building code for Electrical Safety. Many states adopt the NFPA
electrical code standards in their building code and statutes for
enforcement of such building codes.

Underwriters Laboratories, inc, the testing agency for Insurance
companies that issue policies against product liability, adopts the
National Electrical Code (which includes the NEMA standards) as part of
its product safety testing and check list.

Thus, in order to purchase product liability insurance a maker of
consumer products, like a homeowner's hand drill, needs to submit the
product to UL for safety testing. UL will give its blessing only
provided ...... (yada, yada, yada)

Thus the products you buy will have a narrow (hot or black wire) and a
wide blade (neutral or White wire indicated by the "W" on the NEMA 1-15
standard.) Even if the general public safety intent and need for the
narrow / wide blade makes no difference in a specific manufacturer's
product.


The NEC is written by panels that include many interests -
manufacturers, engineers, contractors, labor, affected industries. UL
and the NEC try to be compatible (but I can think of at least one place
they conflict). As far as I know, the NEC has no standards for
receptacle configurations except RVs and trailer parks.

UL develops standards for products from different panels of
knowledgeable people. It is independent from the NFPA and NEC, but
people involved also want UL standards and the NEC to not conflict. UL
does not adopt the NEC.

UL standards are for product manufacturing.
The NEC is primarily an installation standard.

The NEC has limited product design requirements.
Equipment installed must be "approved". Approval is strictly the
decision of the "authority having jurisdiction" which is typically a
state or municipality. The AHJ usually wants products to be "UL listed"
(or maybe listed /labeled another reputable lab which probably tests to
UL standards).

NEMA is a manufacturers group. It sets a number of standards. The
question is how those standards become requirements for equipment. NEMA
receptacle configurations may be included in some UL standards, I
don't know. UL could also just have performance and design standards,
for example plugs must be polarized, with specific configuration
selected by manufacturers.
(NEMA categories for enclosures have been adopted by the NEC.)

--
bud--

Gary H[_4_] October 28th 08 12:22 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

[snip]


While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.

Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:

Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?

[email protected] October 28th 08 01:36 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:44:32 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:36:20 -0400, Bryce
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?

Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh

Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html

How well does it work submerged?

You bet your life!


Submerged, it isn't going to make one bit of difference which way the plug is
inserted in the outlet.


Wet, okay Mr. Picky?


Doug Miller October 28th 08 01:44 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
In article , wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:36:20 -0400, Bryce
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?

Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh


Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html

How well does it work submerged?

You bet your life!


Submerged, it isn't going to make one bit of difference which way the plug is
inserted in the outlet.

Bryce October 28th 08 02:20 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Dave Martindale wrote:

Bryce writes:

Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.


I actually own an older Dremel tool that has a plastic coupling to
isolate the output shaft. The motor has a pair of bearings, and the
output shaft has another pair of bearings. The two shafts are in line
but don't touch, and a splined plastic coupling connects them.

It works fine for transmitting rotation, but it makes the tool almost
unusable for routing and some grinding and milling operations. The
output shaft is just a short stub, and the bearings that hold it are
only half an inch apart. So any side load on the cutting tool has
plenty of leverage in applying force to those bearings, which are only
held by the plastic housing. The result is lots of chatter.

I suppose that's why we end up buying the new improved model!

Stormin Mormon October 28th 08 02:24 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
The sky is falling down! We must tell the king!

(I spend more time scrolling through idiot bottom posted messages than I do
on reversing plugs.)

--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
..


"Gary H" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

[snip]


While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products
as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really
causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.

Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:

Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?



DerbyDad03[_2_] October 28th 08 02:29 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Gary H wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

[snip]

While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.

Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:

Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?


Let's try my math:

It takes me less than a minute grab the bottle of White-Out and put a
white dot on a black plug - or a magic marker if the plug is white.

Since all the receptacles in my house are installed the same way, all
the plugs go in the same way - "dot up".

BTW - do you really plug things in 10 times a day on average? And that's
just 2 pronged "things". I could go days without plugging a single 2
pronged device in. It would take an awful lot of "make up" plug-ins to
average 10 if you miss a day or two here and there.




Ed Pawlowski October 28th 08 02:42 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 

"Gary H" wrote in message

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.


Kist curious, what do you plug in ten times a day. I bet I don't change
more than one plug in a week. Maybe I can retire early with that 10 hours a
year savings.



DerbyDad03[_2_] October 28th 08 02:55 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:44:32 GMT,
(Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:36:20 -0400, Bryce
wrote:


Snip

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html
How well does it work submerged?

You bet your life!
Submerged, it isn't going to make one bit of difference which way the plug is
inserted in the outlet.

Wet, okay Mr. Picky?

If you meant "wet" why did you write "submerged"?


"Submerged" is so much more dramatic than "wet".

Doug Miller October 28th 08 02:56 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
In article , wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:44:32 GMT,
(Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:36:20 -0400, Bryce
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?

Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh

Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html

How well does it work submerged?

You bet your life!


Submerged, it isn't going to make one bit of difference which way the plug is
inserted in the outlet.


Wet, okay Mr. Picky?

If you meant "wet" why did you write "submerged"?

Bert Byfield October 28th 08 04:43 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life
wasted because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that
so minor now?


Polarized plugs is a good idea, but making both sides of the plug feel
the same was a mistake. There should be a tab or something so you can
feel the right way without all the trial and error.






[email protected] October 28th 08 11:14 AM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 01:56:55 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 00:44:32 GMT,
(Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 09:36:20 -0400, Bryce
wrote:

wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:48:21 -0700, Donna Ohl
wrote:

On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman wrote:

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

Maybe they want the hot and neutral to be determinate just to protect
against lawsuits?

Or, maybe it's a UL standard even for plastic-housed appliances?

Or maybe the exposed metal chuck and drill bit are somehow connected
to the motor within? Ya think?

Sheesh

Here's a patent describing an insulated coupling that electrically
isolates the chuck from the motor in a double insulated (class 2)
power tool.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3873863.html

How well does it work submerged?

You bet your life!

Submerged, it isn't going to make one bit of difference which way the plug is
inserted in the outlet.


Wet, okay Mr. Picky?

If you meant "wet" why did you write "submerged"?


Just to upset your delicate balance.

Dan Espen October 28th 08 03:29 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 

Let's see,

"Stormin Mormon" writes:

The sky is falling down! We must tell the king!
(I spend more time scrolling through idiot bottom posted messages than I do
on reversing plugs.)


how do I respond to
--
Christopher A. Young


this idiot...

Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org


Oh, I know, I'll
put


"Gary H" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:


my response where ever

[snip]


the hell, I feel


While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products
as


like

stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really


because

causes


it doesn't matter what anyone

no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


else is

But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.


doing.

Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


What I do is

when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:

Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?


right and everyone else is an idiot.

SAm E October 28th 08 04:00 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:24:48 -0400, "Stormin Mormon"
wrote:

The sky is falling down! We must tell the king!

(I spend more time scrolling through idiot bottom posted messages than I do
on reversing plugs.


and stupidly believing that one problem (posting location),
automatically negates another problem (reversing plugs).

)



The idiots aren't the ones bottom-posting.

The idiots aren't the ones top-posting.

The idiots are the ones calling others idiots because of their posting
location, while simultaneously creating a worse problem (posting your
sig in the wrong place, interfering with quoting and replies).

"So, the 16-ton weight falling on you today means the 9-ton weight
falling on you last week didn't hurt at all. I'm dropping ONLY the
9-ton weight, because that one doesn't hurt :-)"

Mark Lloyd October 28th 08 04:08 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:29:55 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:

Gary H wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:

[snip]

While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.

Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:

Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.

Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?


Let's try my math:

It takes me less than a minute grab the bottle of White-Out and put a
white dot on a black plug - or a magic marker if the plug is white.


Don't forget to multiply that time by the number of plugs you do this
to.

Since all the receptacles in my house are installed the same way, all
the plugs go in the same way - "dot up".


You'd still have to LOOK at the plugs, possibly taking the time to
turn on a light. Even if you could feel the dots, it'd still take time
to feel them, turning the plug around if necessary.

And (again, since too many ignore it) Don't forget to multiply that
time by the number of plugs you do this to.

BTW, My last two cars have had 2-edged (rotationally symmetrical)
keys, so you don't have to waste time turning the key around to use
it.

BTW - do you really plug things in 10 times a day on average? And that's
just 2 pronged "things". I could go days without plugging a single 2
pronged device in. It would take an awful lot of "make up" plug-ins to
average 10 if you miss a day or two here and there.



I guess I plug in 2-prong (polarized) plugs about that often (an
average of 10 times a day).
--
58 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."


Mark Lloyd October 28th 08 04:13 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 22:43:26 -0500, Bert Byfield
wrote:

About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life
wasted because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that
so minor now?


Polarized plugs is a good idea, but making both sides of the plug feel
the same was a mistake. There should be a tab or something so you can
feel the right way without all the trial and error.





Many polarized plugs have both the prongs the same where they come out
of the body of the plug, then one gets smaller (corners cut off) and
the other gets larger. You should be able to feel that.

Of course, that still takes time (and don't forget to multiply by the
number of plugs you insert).
--
58 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"The government of the United States is not, in
any sense, founded on the Christian religion."


[email protected] October 28th 08 05:39 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?


Because there is only one company that makes the plugs, and it's
cheaper to make just one kind of plug and send it out to everyone than
to make two kinds of plugs and keep track of who is buying what type
of plug.

The Daring Dufas[_5_] October 28th 08 05:40 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?


Because there is only one company that makes the plugs, and it's
cheaper to make just one kind of plug and send it out to everyone than
to make two kinds of plugs and keep track of who is buying what type
of plug.


GEEZ! And I thought the other guy was silly.

TDD

DerbyDad03 October 28th 08 09:02 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Oct 28, 11:08*am, Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 21:29:55 -0400, DerbyDad03
wrote:





Gary H wrote:
On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 13:51:10 -0400, "EXT"
wrote:


[snip]


While this is true, it also true that manufacturers need to make products as
stupid proof as possible. The cost of the plug is minimal, and really causes
no inconvenience to the users, as you will get it right 50% of the time
without even looking.


But it'll seem more like 10% because of selective memory.


Don't sweat over such minor stuff,


when there is some
serious stuff out there you really need to worry about.


No worrying, but a bit of arithmetic:


Can you turn a plug around in 2 seconds? That's an average of 1
second, since you have to turn it around half the time.


Now, how many times do you plug things in? It it's just 10 times a
day, that's 36524 times a year (based on average 365.24 days per
year). That's over 10 hours a year.


About 3 DAYS (and I mean REAL DAYS, 24 hours each) of your life wasted
because of the unnecessary use of polarized plugs! Is that so minor
now?


Let's try my math:


It takes me less than a minute grab the bottle of White-Out and put a
white dot on a black plug - or a magic marker if the plug is white.


Don't forget to multiply that time by the number of plugs you do this
to.


Since all the receptacles in my house are installed the same way, all
the plugs go in the same way - "dot up".


You'd still have to LOOK at the plugs, possibly taking the time to
turn on a light. Even if you could feel the dots, it'd still take time
to feel them, turning the plug around if necessary.



And (again, since too many ignore it) Don't forget to multiply that
time by the number of plugs you do this to.

BTW, My last two *cars have had 2-edged (rotationally symmetrical)
keys, so you don't have to waste time turning the key around to use
it.

BTW - do you really plug things in 10 times a day on average? And that's
just 2 pronged "things". I could go days without plugging a single 2
pronged device in. It would take an awful lot of "make up" plug-ins to
average 10 if you miss a day or two here and there.


I guess I plug in 2-prong (polarized) plugs about that often (an
average of 10 times a day).


I guess I plug in 2-prong (polarized) plugs about that often (an
average of 10 times a day).

'splain that please.

DerbyDad03 October 28th 08 09:33 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Oct 28, 12:39*pm, wrote:
marlboroman wrote:
Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?


Because there is only one company that makes the plugs, and it's
cheaper to make just one kind of plug and send it out to everyone than
to make two kinds of plugs and keep track of who is buying what type
of plug.


Nice try...

A quick scan of my office shows at least 5 different kinds of 2 prong
plugs.

Granted, some of the plugs are at least a few months old so that one
company may have bought everyone out since then...

I kid because I care.


Phisherman[_2_] October 30th 08 11:55 PM

Why the wide prong on a plug?
 
On Sun, 26 Oct 2008 21:39:27 -0700 (PDT), marlboroman
wrote:

Has anyone ever figured out why they put one wide and one narrow on a
plug that does not have a ground?

OK, I understand that on a lamp it's a good idea, or the socket shell
and bulb threads will be live if the hot side of the power line is
connected to that part of the socket.

But, lets say I have a all plastic cased electric power tool. (Like
all of them made in the last decade or more). I'm holding plastic,
which does not conduct electricity. It dont matter which side of the
power line goes to which side of the motor on AC. What's the point of
having that wide terminal? Is the only reason to **** off the user,
particularly those of us who are older and dont have the best eyesight
anymore. I cant see any other reason.....

My grinder does a quick job of narrowing that wide prong though !!!
.



The wide blade is the neutral. The smaller blade is the hot side. It
may not make a difference if the two are reversed, but not always.


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