A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

On May 27, 8:39�am, " wrote:
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

this elminates the need for new service drop, meter can etc

wrote:
On May 27, 8:39�am, " wrote:
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

this elminates the need for new service drop, meter can etc

And the question is???

--

On Tue, 27 May 2008 08:13:37 -0500, dpb wrote:

wrote:
On May 27, 8:39�am, " wrote:
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

this elminates the need for new service drop, meter can etc


Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

Mike Dobony wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 08:13:37 -0500, dpb wrote:


Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box
with a larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless
he totally upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for
me when I simply changed breaker boxes for a larger number of
circuits. Check with the city zoning and permit office.


Shame you have to live in a city that requires a permit to replace or modify
a breaker box.

ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is proposing
is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

S. Barker wrote:
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is proposing
is perfectly safe ...

As long as doesn't try to add additional circuit load. That isn't
really unsafe, but may introduce a lot of nuisance trips if becomes
excessive for the service entrance breaker. Wouldn't expect it, but if
were to add additional A/C or other large loads of a semi-continuous
nature, just conceivably could strain capacity...

But I agree that to simply swap service panels if substitute a 100A
(approved for the panel) breaker and use a 200A-rated panel is fine.

--

wrote in message
...
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

On May 27, 4:13�pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc

wrote in message
...
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h


He might not need to swap out the 200 amp main breaker. When we moved into
our house about 5 years ago I wanted to replace the 100A Federal Pacific
panel. I checked with the city (I could do the work, but a permit was
required) about the maximum size I could replace it with and was told that
the service could handle 200A without changing the wires from the pole to
the house. I only had to replace the meter base (the city provided the new
meter and base with the $30 permit fee), and the service entrance wires that
came down the side of the house (about 15 feet). This was on a house built
around 1969, with overhead wiring coming to the house.

I ended up replacing the panel with a 200A Square D "Q0" series with 40
spaces. It was physically much larger, but fortunately I was able mount it
slightly higher on the wall and all the internal circuits were able to reach
to the top breakers in the panel, so I didn't have to extend anything.

Mike O.

One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the insurance
finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an inspection, might
they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing to do with the panel
change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a justification to avoid
payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but that
was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago. My
service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

On May 27, 10:12�pm, wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:44:17 -0700 (PDT), "

wrote:
he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc

Without bringing up the "insurance" boogie man I can still give you
the real reason for a permit.
Unless your PoCo has a great sense of humor they won't hook up your
new SE cable without one, or even reseal the meter if you pull it.
I hope you are not planning to work the SE conductors hot.

I have pulled a few meters in the past, the power company doesnt care
as long as they are informed immediately. the fellow thinking of this
is a volunteer fireman, trained to pull meters. he wants to avoid
fighting a fire at his home

did it to remove broken off fuse.....

wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 14:44:17 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote:

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc

Without bringing up the "insurance" boogie man I can still give you
the real reason for a permit.
Unless your PoCo has a great sense of humor they won't hook up your
new SE cable without one, or even reseal the meter if you pull it.
I hope you are not planning to work the SE conductors hot.

In our city (Houston), you tell the power company you want to temporarily
remove the meter. Their standard is six hours from the call to have a worker
remove the seal (and probably record the reading). You pull the meter at
your convenience. When you get everything back in order, call the power
company again. This time, they'll re-seal the meter (and probably take
another reading) within 24 hours.

This is the sequence I've been through twice in the past couple of years.

Sorry about your town.

wrote in message
...
On May 27, 4:13�pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc



Could you please explain the logic behind wiring a home and changing the
service, but not wanting to get the work inspected. I don't understand the
reasoning behind this. As a contractor I welcome inspections because they
reaffirm that my work was done properly and should an issue of liability
arise in the future I have evidence that an independent party found my work
to be safe and compliant.

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done

s


"Mike O." wrote in message
...
One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing to
do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago.
My service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

On Tue, 27 May 2008 10:03:46 -0500, HeyBub wrote:

Mike Dobony wrote:
On Tue, 27 May 2008 08:13:37 -0500, dpb wrote:


Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box
with a larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless
he totally upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for
me when I simply changed breaker boxes for a larger number of
circuits. Check with the city zoning and permit office.


Shame you have to live in a city that requires a permit to replace or modify
a breaker box.

If you have no shutoff at the meter or pole and you need to pull the meter
to shut off the electricity the utility company will require a permit. I
took advantage of a major power outage to change one box out.

On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:12 -0500, S. Barker wrote:

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done


Maybe. The insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay out and
this is a biggie.

s


"Mike O." wrote in message
...
One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing to
do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago.
My service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

On 2008-05-28, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:12 -0500, S. Barker wrote:

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done


Maybe. The insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay out and
this is a biggie.
Why is this a biggie? The biggies are things the homeowner did
or didn't do which caused the fire. If you are saying that insurance
companies don't pay out on houses which are not up to current code--
then a large chunk of houses don't meet this requirement.

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

Mike Dobony wrote:

Shame you have to live in a city that requires a permit to replace
or modify a breaker box.

If you have no shutoff at the meter or pole and you need to pull the
meter to shut off the electricity the utility company will require a
permit. I took advantage of a major power outage to change one box
out.

Heh! Not in my little town.

Call the power company and within six hours they'll be along remove the
meter seal. When you're done with whatever you need to do, call the power
company. Within 24 hours they'll be back to replace the seal.

No permit. No inspection. No nothing.

'Course I live in Houston; perhaps it's different in more progressive
cities.

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done

s

Today all electric cable and a lot of equipment such as load centers have
dates printed on them.

I don't know about other places, but in NY, insurance companies pay for dumb
things that homeowners do. For example, many years ago I cut down a
neighbors tree, believing it was not on his property. The insurance company
paid for the law suit and settlement. another example, I did electrical work
for a fire job for State Farm. No determination was made to the cause of the
fire, but part of what burned was electrical wiring admittedly installed by
the home owner


"Mike O." wrote in message
...
One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing to
do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago. My
service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with
a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On May 27, 4:13?pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard
FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc



Could you please explain the logic behind wiring a home and changing the
service, but not wanting to get the work inspected. I don't understand
the reasoning behind this. As a contractor I welcome inspections because
they reaffirm that my work was done properly and should an issue of
liability arise in the future I have evidence that an independent party
found my work to be safe and compliant.

John, you missed the point. It was inspected and found to be "a good job" by
Hallerb

On May 28, 6:23�pm, "RBM" wrote:
"John Grabowski" wrote in message

...







wrote in message
...
On May 27, 4:13?pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard
FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc

Could you please explain the logic behind wiring a home and changing the
service, but not wanting to get the work inspected. �I don't understand
the reasoning behind this. �As a contractor I welcome inspections because
they reaffirm that my work was done properly and should an issue of
liability arise in the future I have evidence that an independent party
found my work to be safe and compliant.

John, you missed the point. It was inspected and found to be "a good job" by
Hallerb



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

a customers husband was cutting down a tree, and dropped a 15KVA line
onto a local 120 volt line, fried 16 grand of electronic devices.

insurance pid the entire bill but added a exclusion so it cant happen
again......

"RBM" wrote in message
...

"John Grabowski" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
...
On May 27, 4:13?pm, "RBM" wrote:
wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard
FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100
amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends,
or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc



Could you please explain the logic behind wiring a home and changing the
service, but not wanting to get the work inspected. I don't understand
the reasoning behind this. As a contractor I welcome inspections because
they reaffirm that my work was done properly and should an issue of
liability arise in the future I have evidence that an independent party
found my work to be safe and compliant.

John, you missed the point. It was inspected and found to be "a good job"
by Hallerb


My mistake, Roy. I guess I need to pay more attention. LOL

wrote:
On May 28, 6:23�pm, "RBM" wrote:

"John Grabowski" wrote in message

...








wrote in message
...
On May 27, 4:13?pm, "RBM" wrote:

wrote in message

...

A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h

So Haller, you're finally getting around to replacing YOUR fire hazard
FPE
panel are you. Well, you can't swap a 200 amp main breaker for a 100 amp,
simply because it won't fit, but you can do what gfretwell recommends, or
simply spend a few more bucks and do the complete service

actyually my FPE was replaced near a year ago. my buddy looked to
answers from me since I had been thru this, but wanted to DIY the
project.

he basically wired his home and did a good job, but doesnt want to
bother with permits etc

Could you please explain the logic behind wiring a home and changing the
service, but not wanting to get the work inspected. �I don't understand
the reasoning behind this. �As a contractor I welcome inspections because
they reaffirm that my work was done properly and should an issue of
liability arise in the future I have evidence that an independent party
found my work to be safe and compliant.

John, you missed the point. It was inspected and found to be "a good job" by
Hallerb



- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


a customers husband was cutting down a tree, and dropped a 15KVA line
onto a local 120 volt line, fried 16 grand of electronic devices.

insurance pid the entire bill but added a exclusion so it cant happen
again......

So every dog gets one free bite?

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

S. Barker wrote:
Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done

s



If a court case ensues, do you swear to your answer to #2 and commit
perjury?

"Mike O." wrote in message
...

One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing to
do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago.
My service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.


"S. Barker" wrote in message
om...

ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
et...

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.


And the question is???






--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

"Jonathan Grobe" wrote in message
...
On 2008-05-28, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:12 -0500, S. Barker wrote:

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was
made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done


Maybe. The insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay out
and
this is a biggie.
Why is this a biggie? The biggies are things the homeowner did
or didn't do which caused the fire. If you are saying that insurance
companies don't pay out on houses which are not up to current code--
then a large chunk of houses don't meet this requirement.

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com


Of course you're right, unless they knew what was here before, they would
have no way of knowing the change was done.

I guess my thought would be if there was fire or something that was even
remotely connected to the electric (even if it wasn't the panel), they could
use the non-inspected panel as an excuse to not pay. Years ago (before I
was born), my parents lived in part of a duplex that burned down. The
owner, who lived in the other half, did all of his own electric electric
work without any permits or inspections. I don't know if the cause of the
fire was specifically something he did, but but the insurance didn't pay
anything because of the non-approved work. Fortunately nobody was hurt, but
my parents pretty much lost all their things.

Besides, I didn't really have a choice anyway, since the city had to cut off
the electric and provide the new meter. Also, in my case since it was only
$30 out of a $500 project, I figure it was worth it since they included the
new meter base and I have the paperwork to show it meets code if there are
any questions later.

Mike O.

On May 28, 11:00�pm, "Mike O." wrote:
"Jonathan Grobe" wrote in message

...





On 2008-05-28, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:12 -0500, S. Barker wrote:

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was
made.
#2. �You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done

Maybe. �The insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay out
and
this is a biggie.
Why is this a biggie? The biggies are things the homeowner did
or didn't do which caused the fire. If you are saying that insurance
companies don't pay out on houses which are not up to current code--
then a large chunk of houses don't meet this requirement.

--
Jonathan Grobe Books
Browse our inventory of thousands of used books at:
http://www.grobebooks.com

Of course you're right, unless they knew what was here before, they would
have no way of knowing the change was done.

I guess my thought would be if there was fire or something that was even
remotely connected to the electric (even if it wasn't the panel), they could
use the non-inspected panel as an excuse to not pay. �Years ago (before I
was born), my parents lived in part of a duplex that burned down. �The
owner, who lived in the other half, did all of his own electric electric
work without any permits or inspections. � I don't know if the cause of the
fire was specifically something he did, but but the insurance didn't pay
anything because of the non-approved work. �Fortunately nobody was hurt, but
my parents pretty much lost all their things.

Besides, I didn't really have a choice anyway, since the city had to cut off
the electric and provide the new meter. �Also, in my case since it was only
$30 out of a $500 project, I figure it was worth it since they included the
new meter base and I have the paperwork to show it meets code if there are
any questions later.

Mike O.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

if every DIY homeowner change had to be inspected, insurance would
never pay a dime. few things really get inspected.....

the largest cause of housefires is kitchen events like grease fires,
and smoking.

perhaps cooking and smoking in homes should be outlawed

On Wed, 28 May 2008 20:38:08 +0000 (UTC), Jonathan Grobe wrote:

On 2008-05-28, Mike Dobony wrote:
On Wed, 28 May 2008 09:07:12 -0500, S. Barker wrote:

Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done


Maybe. The insurance companies will look for any reason to not pay out and
this is a biggie.
Why is this a biggie? The biggies are things the homeowner did
or didn't do which caused the fire. If you are saying that insurance
companies don't pay out on houses which are not up to current code--
then a large chunk of houses don't meet this requirement.

Assuming the improper wiring was not the problem.

wrote:
A new friend asked me.......

He has a FPE stab loc 100 amp main panel, and knows this model can
cause fires. worse his panel has many 1/2 breakers, panel is maxed out
with around 28 circuits. ABSOLUTELY JAMMED

he wonders about replacing the 100 amp panel with a 200 amp, to get 40
breakers, and swap out for now the main 200 amp breaker for a 100 amp?

he has never had a main breaker trip, his problem is FPE, and number
of circuits. h


May I suggest that your friend install the panel with a generator
interlock kit with a one hundred ampere breaker installed as the
generator breaker. Then until he decides to upgrade he can use the main
as the generator breaker and the one hundred ampere breaker as the main.
In this way he will have a generator interlock that allows her/him
to use any circuit in the home that the generator he attaches to the
main breaker can supply. This will give him the safety of a generator
interlock to use in the event of a power outage and still have a main
breaker sized to prevent overloading of the service conductors.

The reason that I make this suggestion is that changing out the main
breaker in a factory assembled panel is not a job for the faint of heart
or the inexperienced. If it is badly done the panel can experience a
"Burn Down" which is the term of art used to describe destructive arcing.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..

Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with
the city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???


Mike O. wrote:
One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in
your area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had nothing
to do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago.
My service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the $30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.

The insurance carrier could only deny the claim if the no permit work
was the cause of the loss. If that work were the cause of the loss
however they would certainly deny the claim and would be judgment proof
in doing so.

An insurance contract is a "contract of utmost good faith." Both
parties to the contract are expected to scrupulously obey the law in any
matter that might cause a loss or affect the ability to pay a claim.
Doing electrical work without drawing an electrical permit in a
jurisdiction were a permit is required is simply not worth the risk. To
obtain a permit in many places you need only apply and pay the
administrative cost and the inspection fee. Most electrical inspectors
are decent folk who are just trying to do their job conscientiously. It
seldom takes that much more to do the job right.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message
. ..
Not necessarily. My son wanted to update his 100 amp service box with a
larger number of circuits. The city refused the permit unless he
totally
upgraded to 200 amp service. That was not necessary for me when I
simply
changed breaker boxes for a larger number of circuits. Check with the
city
zoning and permit office.

And the question is???

"S. Barker" wrote in message
...
ANOTHER good reason not to get the city involved. What the OP is
proposing is perfectly safe and doesn't need any governmental
intervention.


s


"Mike O." wrote in message
...
One consideration about not getting a permit (if they're required in
your
area) is that if there is a fire or similar problem later and the
insurance finds out you had replaced the panel without getting an
inspection, might they deny coverage? Even if the problem had
nothing to
do with the panel change, I'm wondering if they would use it as a
justification to avoid payment.

I'm not any kind of expert, and of course it's up to the homeowner, but
that was a concern I had when I did a panel upgrade several years ago.
My service could handle 200A, though, so the only extra cost was the
$30
permit/inspection fee.

Mike O.

S. Barker wrote:
Some people would say that can happen, but in reality, it's bs.

#1. The insurance co has no basis for knowing 'when' this change was
made.
#2. You say: "like that when i got here"
#3. done

s


You had better hope that the adjuster is an incompetent then. I have
worked in Fire & Rescue for thirty five years and I can assure you that
some adjusters do know their business. You say it was like that when
you got there but the panel was manufactured during the time you have
been their insured. I've been deposed in two cases were the insurance
company was denying a claim. Both insureds were financially ruined by
the decision in the carriers favor. I will be the first to admit that
the work in one case was so obviously slipshod that the matter was
rather plain. In the other case however it was a sharp adjuster that
spotted the galvanized piping used in a gas line. He knew that no gas
fitter would ever waste galvanized piping on gas lines. The insurance
adjuster demanded that the home owner provide the name of the gas
fitting contractor so they could recover the loss from the gas piping
contractor's liability insurer. When the homeowner could not provide
the name of the firm that did the work the claim was successfully denied.
--
Tom Horne

"This alternating current stuff is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison