Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.

I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.

Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.

Thanks,
Charlie
  #2   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


"cmyers" wrote in message
...
Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.

I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.

Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.

Thanks,
Charlie


I'm not exactly understanding why you want to feed the panel from the
existing FPE panel, if you're moving the service to the new panel, unless
this is just for a temporary setup. I wouldn't replace the FPE equipment out
of fear of fire. I would replace it simply because it's garbage. I believe
the difference between the NA and NC is that the NA, possibly because of
it's 100 amp rating stabs into four places on the buss, as opposed to just
two


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

cmyers wrote:
....
Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.


I _believe_ all NA and NC are allowed in any FPE panel that takes one or
the other, but the real answer is on the sticker on the inside of your
panel -- it will list the allowable breakers it accepts.

I'm assuming this is intended simply as a temporary feed to the new
panel? Be sure you use adequately-sized cable to feed it -- don't try
to "get by" w/ something too small just because it's temporary and
short-time expected...

--
  #4   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,563
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


"RBM" wrote in message
...

"cmyers" wrote in message
...
Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.

I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.

Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.

Thanks,
Charlie


I'm not exactly understanding why you want to feed the panel from the
existing FPE panel, if you're moving the service to the new panel, unless
this is just for a temporary setup. I wouldn't replace the FPE equipment
out of fear of fire. I would replace it simply because it's garbage. I
believe the difference between the NA and NC is that the NA, possibly
because of it's 100 amp rating stabs into four places on the buss, as
opposed to just two

Let me retract that, it appears that the NA breakers are full sized double
pole, and the NC are half sized double pole. My guess is that they don't
make half sized double pole breakers in the larger sizes, like 100 amp. In
any event the 2/100 NA will fit in the panel in a location where you'd
install four full size single pole breakers, two on each side of the buss



  #5   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


I'm not exactly understanding why you want to feed the panel from the
existing FPE panel, if you're moving the service to the new panel, unless
this is just for a temporary setup.


Yes, it's only temporary. Rather than replacing everything at once,
it will let me rewire the different circuits as I can, and would
ensure minimal downtime when it comes time to move the service to the
new box. The old FPE is history after that.

Thanks for the response.

-Charlie


  #6   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

RBM,

You're correct that it's listed inside the box...I found that after
I'd sent this question to the group. It accepts NA, NC, & 2B
(whatever that is?) breakers. And yes, I've spoken with an
electrician and will be using 2 gauge 4 conductor (2 hots, 1 common, 1
ground) copper from this breaker to the new breaker box.

Thanks a bunch.
Charlie
  #7   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


"cmyers" wrote in message
...
Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.

I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.

Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.



I think it's a waste of time and those FPE breakers are more expensive than
other brands. Many service changes to single family houses are done in a
day. Unless there is some other reason to temporarily feed a new panel I
suggest that you start talking to qualified electrical contractors about
what you are trying to accomplish. If you don't want to swing over the old
circuits to the new 200 amp panel, have the electricians run a feed from the
new panel to the old panel thereby making it a sub panel.

  #8   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,538
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

cmyers wrote:
Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.


It might be cheaper, and certainly less trouble, to deal with your fears.

There may even be a twelve-step program available.


  #9   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

If you don't want to swing over the old
circuits to the new 200 amp panel, have the electricians run a feed from the
new panel to the old panel thereby making it a sub panel.


John,

Excellent suggestion! Actually I have spoken with a couple
electricians, but they mostly just agreed that what I had planned
would work and was a good way to approach it. I guess that my idea
was the reverse of what you suggested...make the new panel a sub-
panel, rewire, then switch the service. Moving the service and then
making the old one a sub-panel I think is indeed a better approach.
It'll be much easier to find the appropriate 100amp breaker for the
new panel, and I'd certainly trust it much more than another old Stab-
Lok double-pole breaker in the FPE breaker box.

Thanks for the new approach.
Charlie
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


There may even be a twelve-step program available.


HeyBub,

I'm afraid that I have a fear of twelve-step programs.

Charlie


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,199
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

YOU WILL NEED A NEW 200 AM SERVICE DROP and meter can.erhaps its me
but one step is easier.

or install the new main panel and feed each new breaker to a feed in
the old FPE box, after stripping out all the old breakers and
hardware.

just use the old box as a pass thru.

i have thought about doing that at a home, since the wires are too
short and a garage door track obstructs the area,.

better one pass thru box than 10 or 12 junction boxes.eater smaller
less work

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 11,538
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

cmyers wrote:
There may even be a twelve-step program available.


HeyBub,

I'm afraid that I have a fear of twelve-step programs.

Charlie


Well, back to plan one.

About your plan to put a 100-amp breaker in the existing box and feed a
200-Amp box from that:

I suspect pulling 100 Amps through one breaker will melt the stab-on bar.

I'd replace the existing box with a new, 200A one. You won't have to splice
wires either.


  #13   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to cmyers, Been there! wrote:
cmyers wrote:

Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.
I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.
Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.
Thanks,
Charlie



Replacing just the circuit breaker in a Stab-Loc panel will not solve the
latent fire/electrical hazard of the equipment. The Stab-Loc equipment is
"LISTED" with Stab-Loc breakers only. Replacing the Stab-Loc breakers
with any other make of breaker results in a combination "NEVER" evaluated
by the Listing Agency. In fact, the result could be worse than the
already existing latent fire/electrical hazard.

--


  #14   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Thu, 12 Dec 2013 17:44:02 +0000, Been there!
wrote:

replying to cmyers, Been there! wrote:
cmyers wrote:

Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.
I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.
Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.
Thanks,
Charlie



Replacing just the circuit breaker in a Stab-Loc panel will not solve the
latent fire/electrical hazard of the equipment. The Stab-Loc equipment is
"LISTED" with Stab-Loc breakers only. Replacing the Stab-Loc breakers
with any other make of breaker results in a combination "NEVER" evaluated
by the Listing Agency. In fact, the result could be worse than the
already existing latent fire/electrical hazard.

I think what the OP wants to do is install a new, non-fpe panel and
TEMPORARILY feed it from the old panel with a 100 amp breaker. There
is no 100 amp stab-lock breaker made to fit the load side of that
panel. There is no 100 amp breaker PERIOD made to fit the load side of
that panel. The 100 amp bolt-in is for the service side of the panel.

An electrican would likely temporaitly feed the service breaker of the
new panel directly from the service breaker of the old panel. I assume
this is to allow the old circuitry to continue to run untill the new
circuitry is installed and connected to the new panel... Might
actually be better to install the new panel FIRST, and connect the
service to it - and feed the old panel temporarilly from the new - 50
amps shuld do it for the short term if you are carefull - and move the
heavy loads to the new panel first - - -
  #15   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 102
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

"Been there!" wrote in
message roups.com...
replying to cmyers, Been there! wrote:
cmyers wrote:

Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.
I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.
Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.
Thanks,
Charlie



Replacing just the circuit breaker in a Stab-Loc panel will not solve the
latent fire/electrical hazard of the equipment. The Stab-Loc equipment is
"LISTED" with Stab-Loc breakers only. Replacing the Stab-Loc breakers
with any other make of breaker results in a combination "NEVER" evaluated
by the Listing Agency. In fact, the result could be worse than the
already existing latent fire/electrical hazard.


This is from a old Homeowners Hub forum post back in April, 2008. Here's
the link:
http://www.homeownershub.com/mainten...te-300875-.htm .



  #16   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
dpb dpb is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 12,595
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/12/2013 11:44 AM, Been there! wrote:
....

Replacing just the circuit breaker in a Stab-Loc panel will not solve the
latent fire/electrical hazard of the equipment. The Stab-Loc equipment is
"LISTED" with Stab-Loc breakers only. Replacing the Stab-Loc breakers
with any other make of breaker results in a combination "NEVER" evaluated
by the Listing Agency. In fact, the result could be worse than the
already existing latent fire/electrical hazard.


There are at least the UBI replacements available 3rd-party that are
certified to have met the applicable ANSI Standard altho these
particular ones' manufacturer has not expended the bucks to get the UL
listed.

It seems I recall at least one other outfit in Canada but it may be that
the two are the same parent just the one dealing w/ US and the other
Canadian markets; won't swear one way or t'other.

The unfortunate thing w/ the UBI is that they are quite expensive in
comparison to alternatives for other manufacturers so it may be more
economical in the long run to go ahead and swap out the panel anyway.

--
  #17   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to dpb , Let's get it right! wrote:
none wrote:

...
There are at least the UBI replacements available 3rd-party that are
certified to have met the applicable ANSI Standard altho these
particular ones' manufacturer has not expended the bucks to get the UL
listed.
It seems I recall at least one other outfit in Canada but it may be that
the two are the same parent just the one dealing w/ US and the other
Canadian markets; won't swear one way or t'other.
The unfortunate thing w/ the UBI is that they are quite expensive in
comparison to alternatives for other manufacturers so it may be more
economical in the long run to go ahead and swap out the panel anyway.



According to NEC, a listed device is considered "PROTECTED" when applied
in accordance with it's listing and/or labeling requirements.
Any alteration to a "LISTED" device voids it's protection (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(b)).

Which raises an interesting fact. Most homes and office buildings I've
inspected have 20 ampere circuit breakers providing branch circuit
protection to wall outlets, switch, listed cord and direct connected
equipment. If the listed cord connected equipment utilizes a NEMA 5-15
plug, it's not protected, and because it cannot be applied to such branch
circuit protection and still be considered "PROTECTED" (Ref: NEC paragraph
240.5(B) (1)). This also explains the fires caused by "overloaded"
extension cord you hear about every X-mas season, and couldn't happen if
branch circuit protection were done in accordance with NEC (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(A)(8)).

--


  #18   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/13/2013 11:44 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to dpb , Let's get it right! wrote:
none wrote:

... There are at least the UBI replacements available 3rd-party that
are certified to have met the applicable ANSI Standard altho these
particular ones' manufacturer has not expended the bucks to get the UL
listed. It seems I recall at least one other outfit in Canada but it
may be that the two are the same parent just the one dealing w/ US and
the other Canadian markets; won't swear one way or t'other. The
unfortunate thing w/ the UBI is that they are quite expensive in
comparison to alternatives for other manufacturers so it may be more
economical in the long run to go ahead and swap out the panel anyway.



According to NEC, a listed device is considered "PROTECTED" when applied
in accordance with it's listing and/or labeling requirements.
Any alteration to a "LISTED" device voids it's protection (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(b)).

Which raises an interesting fact. Most homes and office buildings I've
inspected have 20 ampere circuit breakers providing branch circuit
protection to wall outlets, switch, listed cord and direct connected
equipment. If the listed cord connected equipment utilizes a NEMA 5-15
plug, it's not protected, and because it cannot be applied to such branch
circuit protection and still be considered "PROTECTED" (Ref: NEC paragraph
240.5(B) (1)).


(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).

15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?

This also explains the fires caused by "overloaded"
extension cord you hear about every X-mas season, and couldn't happen if
branch circuit protection were done in accordance with NEC (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(A)(8)).


Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.

But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



  #19   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


"bud--" wrote in message b.com...
On 12/13/2013 11:44 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to dpb , Let's get it right! wrote:
none wrote:

... There are at least the UBI replacements available 3rd-party that
are certified to have met the applicable ANSI Standard altho these
particular ones' manufacturer has not expended the bucks to get the UL
listed. It seems I recall at least one other outfit in Canada but it
may be that the two are the same parent just the one dealing w/ US and
the other Canadian markets; won't swear one way or t'other. The
unfortunate thing w/ the UBI is that they are quite expensive in
comparison to alternatives for other manufacturers so it may be more
economical in the long run to go ahead and swap out the panel anyway.



According to NEC, a listed device is considered "PROTECTED" when applied
in accordance with it's listing and/or labeling requirements.
Any alteration to a "LISTED" device voids it's protection (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(b)).

Which raises an interesting fact. Most homes and office buildings I've
inspected have 20 ampere circuit breakers providing branch circuit
protection to wall outlets, switch, listed cord and direct connected
equipment. If the listed cord connected equipment utilizes a NEMA 5-15
plug, it's not protected, and because it cannot be applied to such branch
circuit protection and still be considered "PROTECTED" (Ref: NEC paragraph
240.5(B) (1)).


(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).

15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?

This also explains the fires caused by "overloaded"
extension cord you hear about every X-mas season, and couldn't happen if
branch circuit protection were done in accordance with NEC (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(A)(8)).


Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.

But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.




I guess this device should be unlisted:

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640

It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that is?

I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...


  #20   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,105
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013 14:45:17 -0600, "Irreverent Maximus"
wrote:


"bud--" wrote in message b.com...
On 12/13/2013 11:44 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to dpb , Let's get it right! wrote:
none wrote:

... There are at least the UBI replacements available 3rd-party that
are certified to have met the applicable ANSI Standard altho these
particular ones' manufacturer has not expended the bucks to get the UL
listed. It seems I recall at least one other outfit in Canada but it
may be that the two are the same parent just the one dealing w/ US and
the other Canadian markets; won't swear one way or t'other. The
unfortunate thing w/ the UBI is that they are quite expensive in
comparison to alternatives for other manufacturers so it may be more
economical in the long run to go ahead and swap out the panel anyway.


According to NEC, a listed device is considered "PROTECTED" when applied
in accordance with it's listing and/or labeling requirements.
Any alteration to a "LISTED" device voids it's protection (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(b)).

Which raises an interesting fact. Most homes and office buildings I've
inspected have 20 ampere circuit breakers providing branch circuit
protection to wall outlets, switch, listed cord and direct connected
equipment. If the listed cord connected equipment utilizes a NEMA 5-15
plug, it's not protected, and because it cannot be applied to such branch
circuit protection and still be considered "PROTECTED" (Ref: NEC paragraph
240.5(B) (1)).


(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).

15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?

This also explains the fires caused by "overloaded"
extension cord you hear about every X-mas season, and couldn't happen if
branch circuit protection were done in accordance with NEC (ref: NEC
paragraph 110.3(A)(8)).


Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.

But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.




I guess this device should be unlisted:

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640


Why? It allows you to use both 15A and 20A appliances.

It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that is?


Because it allows both sorts of appliances to be plugged in? Note
that it would be against code to install this outlet on a 15A circuit.


I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...


You haven't looked hard enough. They aren't all that common because
most appliances draw less than 15A, so 15A cords are plenty. However,
they do exist. Many air conditioners have 20A plugs. The plugs are
also available at the usual places.



  #21   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center


wrote in message ...

I guess this device should be unlisted:

http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640


Why? It allows you to use both 15A and 20A appliances.


LOL!

Duh... (face palm)
  #22   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).
15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?
Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.
But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords).
2) the power cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an
appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.)
3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the
"listed" device.
4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real
power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's "Listing".
5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.

--


  #23   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 10:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances ---
inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:
replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords). 2) the power
cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an
appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.)
3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the
"listed" device.
4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real
power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's
"Listing". 5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.



http://preview.tinyurl.com/m8jmo9c




  #24   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,679
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 11:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances ---
inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:
replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords). 2) the power
cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an
appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.)
3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the
"listed" device.
4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real
power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's
"Listing". 5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.


Your argument is somewhat valid, but you're not going to get anywhere
with it as the NEC specifically allows the use of NEMA 5-15 or
combination 5-15/5-20 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.

This is the ONLY instance that I'm aware that a receptacle is allowed
which accepts a plug/cord cap of a lower nominal amperage than the
circuit breaker, however.

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
  #25   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

b.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640
It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



Not unlisted! It's rated for 20-ampere service ... however .. you can't
interface any listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug, and the
appliance be considered protected unless the branch circuit protection is
no greater than 15-amperes.

The regulatory agencies that inspect these services really screwed up on
this little problem. It's not just a matter of swapping out circuit
breakers to correct the property ... as this fix would create a
nuisscannce tripping problem (because it wasn't done right to begin with).

--




  #26   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).
15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?
Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.
But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



The problem isn't the listed device. The problem is branch circuit
protection (20-amperes) is not compatible with the listed devices.
Subsequently, the listed device is being allowed to operated beyond the
parameters for which it was listed (up to 15-ampere branch circuit
protection), and creates a fire/shock hazard because the listed device
could/does have the opportunity to fail not-safe!

Got any listed appliances that have NEMA 5-15 plug and cord sets that are
protected according to NEC? Highly likely. The regulatory inspection
agency in change of inspecting your home/office probably screwed up!

Proof: On a 20-ampere branch circuit, load an extension cord until the
current draw approached 20-amperes. It can be done ... and have a fire
extinguisher on hand ... because it most probably will burn up ... and the
circuit breaker will not trip ... until there is a dead short.

--


  #27   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

b.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640
It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



If you've only 20-ampere or greater circuit breakers providing branch
circuit protection in your home/office, then possibly "all" listed cord
and direct connected appliances and luminaires are not protected. Why
protect a fractional horsepower bathroom vent fan with a 20-ampere circuit
breaker when a 15-ampere circuit breaker would provide greater protection?


As long as you don't plug in a listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug
and cord set into a receptacle provided with 20-ampere branch circuit
protection ... everything is protected. In other words, no TV, no lights,
no coffee maker, no refrigerator, no microwave, no dishwasher, no garbage
disposal, no computer, no battery chargers, etc.

The "PROBLEM" is the branch circuit interface is not compatible with
"Listed" appliances. That "Problem" is associated with regulatory
inspectors not following NEC properly.



--


  #28   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).
15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?
Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.
But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



The regulatory inspection agency has the responsibility for 110.3B also
... and they should understand and acknowledge that Listed equipment will
be interfaced with such branch circuity protection. You either go all the
wall with NEC ... or accept fire and shock hazards as a daily part of
life. If done in strict accordance with NEC, fire and shock hazards
should not exist. This just isn't happening in the real world!

--


  #29   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 18,538
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 21:46:09 +0000, Let's get it right!
wrote:

replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

eb.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640
It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



If you've only 20-ampere or greater circuit breakers providing branch
circuit protection in your home/office, then possibly "all" listed cord
and direct connected appliances and luminaires are not protected. Why
protect a fractional horsepower bathroom vent fan with a 20-ampere circuit
breaker when a 15-ampere circuit breaker would provide greater protection?


As long as you don't plug in a listed appliance that has a NEMA 5-15 plug
and cord set into a receptacle provided with 20-ampere branch circuit
protection ... everything is protected. In other words, no TV, no lights,
no coffee maker, no refrigerator, no microwave, no dishwasher, no garbage
disposal, no computer, no battery chargers, etc.

The "PROBLEM" is the branch circuit interface is not compatible with
"Listed" appliances. That "Problem" is associated with regulatory
inspectors not following NEC properly.


It's NOT a NEW problem. Virtually every outlet in the house in the
past has been protected with a 15 amp fuse or breaker - and virtually
every radio, TV, lamp, and small non-heating appliance has had a 16 or
18ga cord - whether or not it has an internal fuse. NONE of the
non-fused items are "protected" by the circuit fuse, and if something
shorts before the fuse on a fused device, the cord is not protected
either.

A 20 amp receptacle is CAPABLE of safely handling 20 amps current, and
can handle 2 10 amp, or 1 15 and 1 5, without being overloaded. It can
also handle a 20 amp device - with its special plug - which a 15 amp
outlet cannot - You still can't opperate 2 15 amp devices on the same
circuitbecause the CIRCUIT is protected to 20 amps maximum.

Im a lot of Europe, each plug has it's own fuse - and a bigger fuse
cannot be installed than the plug is rated for.
  #30   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,105
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 13:15:05 -0500, Nate Nagel
wrote:

On 12/16/2013 11:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances ---
inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:
replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords). 2) the power
cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an
appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.)
3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the
"listed" device.
4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real
power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's
"Listing". 5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes. I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.


Your argument is somewhat valid, but you're not going to get anywhere
with it as the NEC specifically allows the use of NEMA 5-15 or
combination 5-15/5-20 receptacles on a 20A branch circuit.

This is the ONLY instance that I'm aware that a receptacle is allowed
which accepts a plug/cord cap of a lower nominal amperage than the
circuit breaker, however.


Note that the NEMA 5-15 receptacle *is* rated for 20A. The plug that
fits into it is only rated for 15A, though. As has been point out
here many times, the outlet can have two 10A appliances plugged in.


  #31   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,105
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013 16:44:01 +0000, Mis-application of listed
appliances --- inadequate branch circuit protection.
wrote:

replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device)
Also B-3 (protection of listed extension cords).
15A receptacles are allowed on 20A circuits. You are saying that the
listing requirements of devices and extension cords with a 15A plug do
not allow them on 20A circuits? I see no reason to believe that is true
(and it would be absurd). Perhaps a cite?
Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally "approved" and
110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done.
But 110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords).
2) the power cord is essentially a resistor wired in series with an
appliance (light, microwave, refrigerator, etc.)
3) I square * R = the "real" power of this resistive component of the
"listed" device.
4) a 20 ampere circuit breaker will allow approximately 78% more real
power in that power cord than what it was evaluated as for it's "Listing".
5) 78% more "real" power can easily burn up an extension cord.


Not "easily", but it's possible. The flaw in your argument is that
the circuit breaker is there to protect the wiring in the house, not
the appliance plugged into it.

Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes.


How does a "listed appliance" cord with branch protection of 20A get a
NEMA 5-15 plug on it? That sounds very fishy.

I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.

  #32   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 171
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 7:48 PM, wrote:

Note that the NEMA 5-15 receptacle *is* rated for 20A. The plug that
fits into it is only rated for 15A, though. As has been point out
here many times, the outlet can have two 10A appliances plugged in.


Okay, I approached this thread as a joke. I mean, seriously. As you
have pointed out, the breaker protects the wiring of branch circuits.
That is the primary focus of the breaker since the breaker and branch
circuits are the only controllable factors. Once people start plugging
things into outlets, all bets are off.

With the advent of more and more electrical devices the need for a
reasonable compromise in providing more outlets, without dedication,
was needed and it was deemed that it was okay to increase the amperage
of branch circuits (110-120v duplex receptacles to be specific). The
protection and wiring of these receptacles is only to the face of the
receptacle. After that, it is up to the user to not be an idiot.

The U.L. listing is the rating that a device/cord is tested at, not the
rating of what it will be plugged into, nor is it the failure point that
the U.L. listed device has. The listing only proves that the device
will perform up to claimed rating. That is all. I could go on, but to
keep it short and simple I can give an example of something that might
surprise some people.

Look around your house, place of work, or any store that sells the
following:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/lubg6n9

Check out the U.L. listing tag near the plug. What does it state?
If it is a 16ga cord, like the one shown, it will have 13A as its
tested rating. I have a cord, don't know the AWG, but it is only
rated for 10A. Ever check out the 7A rating that the power cord that
plugs into the power supply of a Desktop? One might think that the
ampacity rating is solely because of the wire size, but they would be
wrong. Rather, It is the type of insulation versus intended voltage
that the insulation type of the wiring is made of. IIRC this is under
table 450.5(A) for flexible cords.

Anyone ever see a clock radio, with an 18ga cord, rated for 15A? A
lamp? I am not going to call "Get it Right", or whatever its nym is,
a troll, but maybe it can get this right:

How much horsepower is available at a 20A receptacle?

Merry Christmas!


  #33   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,463
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 11:48 PM, Irreverent Maximus wrote:
On 12/16/2013 7:48 PM, wrote:

Note that the NEMA 5-15 receptacle *is* rated for 20A. The plug that
fits into it is only rated for 15A, though. As has been point out
here many times, the outlet can have two 10A appliances plugged in.


Okay, I approached this thread as a joke. I mean, seriously. As you
have pointed out, the breaker protects the wiring of branch circuits.
That is the primary focus of the breaker since the breaker and branch
circuits are the only controllable factors. Once people start plugging
things into outlets, all bets are off.

With the advent of more and more electrical devices the need for a
reasonable compromise in providing more outlets, without dedication,
was needed and it was deemed that it was okay to increase the amperage
of branch circuits (110-120v duplex receptacles to be specific). The
protection and wiring of these receptacles is only to the face of the
receptacle. After that, it is up to the user to not be an idiot.

The U.L. listing is the rating that a device/cord is tested at, not the
rating of what it will be plugged into, nor is it the failure point that
the U.L. listed device has. The listing only proves that the device
will perform up to claimed rating. That is all. I could go on, but to
keep it short and simple I can give an example of something that might
surprise some people.

Look around your house, place of work, or any store that sells the
following:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/lubg6n9

Check out the U.L. listing tag near the plug. What does it state?
If it is a 16ga cord, like the one shown, it will have 13A as its
tested rating. I have a cord, don't know the AWG, but it is only
rated for 10A. Ever check out the 7A rating that the power cord that
plugs into the power supply of a Desktop? One might think that the
ampacity rating is solely because of the wire size, but they would be
wrong. Rather, It is the type of insulation versus intended voltage
that the insulation type of the wiring is made of. IIRC this is under
table 450.5(A) for flexible cords.

Anyone ever see a clock radio, with an 18ga cord, rated for 15A? A
lamp? I am not going to call "Get it Right", or whatever its nym is,
a troll, but maybe it can get this right:

How much horsepower is available at a 20A receptacle?

Merry Christmas!


In business offices where I've installed phone systems, networks,
computers and backup power supplies, many of the women(I adore many of
them), will plug a 1,500watt electric heater into the UPS and wonder
where the smoke came from. There are places where I installed separate
circuits just for things like electric heaters and made it clear to the
gals that the only place they were to ever plug in a heater was the
labeled outlet. Me and the guys have been using white vinyl plastic
downspouts to carry the MC power cables, phone and network cables from
the suspended ceilings in offices down to the floor. I can pre-build the
vinyl power poles at the office before they're taken to the job site and
installed. The reason we use the plastic downspouts is because the metal
tela-power poles from manufacturers cost close to $100.00 from the
electrical supply houses. If someone slams a desk into one of the
expensive metal power poles, it can be dented, bent and damaged enough
to require replacement. The vinyl pops back into place. ^_^

http://www.cableorganizer.com/tele-power-poles/

TDD
  #34   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 296
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On Wednesday, April 16, 2008 4:30:05 PM UTC-4, cmyers wrote:
Hi all. I want to replace my existing Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load
Center breaker box because the reports that I've heard about it scare
me, and I want to rewire my whole house because the old wiring scares
me. I have a replacement plan in mind, and before I bring in someone
that knows more than I do, I'd like to get as much lined up as
possible.

I plan to install a 100amp breaker into my existing FPE (200 amp
service) box to service a new breaker box (also 200 amp service), then
rewire the house to the new box, and because of other reasons we will
be moving the incoming service to the new box. Note: I say "we" but
in this case "we" means electricians and the electric company as far
as they need to be involved.

Anyway, if anyone is familiar with the FPE Stab-Lok load center, I'd
appreciate some advice about the 100amp breaker. I've found the
NA2100 (Type NA, 2 poles, 100 amp) breakers, but I'm not sure if this
is the one I need for this breaker box or not. My existing breakers
are type NC. Apparently the type NB breakers bolt in ("B" is for
"Bolt" obviously). I have found several of the 30amp or less breakers
as type NC, but anything over that seem to be type NA. I just want to
know if the NA2100 will work in my box...or if you need more
information to make that determination.

Thanks,
Charlie


I would not bother. Simply get the appropriate replacement panel and do the replacement. Many of the wires will not be long enough to reach your "temporary" location and you will have to make the splice in the old box. And your "temporary" box will be sub panel requiring isolated ground. Of course you will find electricians that are fine with your plan because they work by the hour.

If you need to upgrade the service from outside from 100 to 200 you can do that ahead of time. There is nothing that prevents you from connecting a 100amp main to 200amp service. Then replace the panel. If you don't have the money to do it, start saving until you do. It's a one day job if the materials are on site.
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

b.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640
It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



You can't apply a direct or cord connected appliance that is rated for use
from a branch circuit greater that 15-amperes and consider it "Protected"
according to NEC. I verified it with U.L. I suggest you do the same.
With respect to branch circuit protection, NEC is not being practiced as
written.

--




  #36   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 24
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

b.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640
It appears that it accepts both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a true
twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



Articles 100 thru 400 of NEC are mandatory. Only after Article 400 can
you deviate from for specific applications.

A "Listed" device is only "Protected" when applied within it's listing
requirements and labeling. If you don't provide branch circuit protection
compatible with the "Listed" device listing requirements and labeling, it
not "Protected" according to NEC. Subsequently, if you provide 20-ampere
branch circuit protection to circuit intended to interface with "Listed"
devices, the "Listed" devices will not be "Protected".

A single, dedicated NEMA 5-15 receptacle is allowed to be interfaced with
a 20-ampere circuit breaker ... but not multiple 15 ampere receptacles.
In addition, the steady state current draw on a NEMA 5-15 receptacle
should be limited to about 13-amperes (allowing for a 2-ampere margin)
according to NEC. A 20-ampere circuit breaker would allow for a 7-ampere
margin which would expose resistive components (such as power cords) to
over 75% more real power than what they are listed at. The power cord,
plug, etc. will burn up under such circumstances, and a fused "Listed"
device will not protect the power cord of that "Listed" device.

--


  #37   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 10:44 AM, Mis-application of listed appliances ---
inadequate branch circuit protection. wrote:
replying to bud-- , Mis-application of listed appliances --- inadequate
branch circuit protection. wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



Let's say your listed device utilizes a power cord with a NEMA 5-15 plug,
and your branch circuit protection is rated at 20 amperes.

1) the listed device is rated for use from not more than a 15 ampere
circuit breaker (look at the ratings on extension cords).


Extension cords may have an amp rating that is the current the end user
can use the cord at. If there is a 15A rating that does not mean the
cord can not be used on a 20A circuit. The cord would have to be marked
"for use only on 15A circuits". I have never seen such a cord, and
considering the way UL and the NEC work I doubt they exist.


Now try to tell the Fire Marshall it's OK to interface "Listed" appliances
that utilize NEMA 5-15 plugs and cord sets with branch circuit protection
of 20-amperes.


Fire marshals can enforce UL requirements. Your opinion is not
consistent with UL requirements.

I've tried ... and I'm convinced all of the rework &
repair due to the hurricane damage in New Orleans is deficient ... and
that they still have latent shock and fire hazards due to their arrogance
and ignorance. We will always have fires at X-mas due to "overloading" as
long as they ignore the requirements. No one is held accountable.


Requirements are not being ignored. You just don't understand UL and NEC
requirements.

Anyone can submit a code change proposal.

And anyone can petition the UL to change their standards.

I am sure your proposals will be appropriately considered.
  #38   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 3:45 PM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



The problem isn't the listed device. The problem is branch circuit
protection (20-amperes) is not compatible with the listed devices.
Subsequently, the listed device is being allowed to operated beyond the
parameters for which it was listed (up to 15-ampere branch circuit
protection), and creates a fire/shock hazard because the listed device
could/does have the opportunity to fail not-safe!


Listed extension cords made with #18 wire are readily available. The
rating in the NEC for #18 cord is 10A (400.5). According to you, that
can't be used on even a 15A breaker.

The requirements for overcurrent protection of cords is in 240.5. There
are several methods of protection. "Listed" cords are considered
protected (240.5-B-3). UL know that cords with a 15A plug may be used on
20A circuits. The system is working as intended. The cord will have a
current or wattage rating. It up to the user to use the cord according
to the ratings provided.

For cordsets that we put together (field assembly), the wire must be #16
or larger on a 20A circuit (240.5-B-4). The NEC rating for #16 is 13A
(400.5). The NEC explicitly allows cords rated 13A on a 20A breaker.


Got any listed appliances that have NEMA 5-15 plug and cord sets that are
protected according to NEC? Highly likely.


Yes, it is highly likely.

Listed appliance (and lamps, etc) will have a cord large enough to
supply the appliance when used as instructed. Cords of listed appliance
cords are considered protected (240.5-B-1).

Appliances are protected as UL and the NEC intended.

The regulatory inspection
agency in change of inspecting your home/office probably screwed up!


Nonsense. They are enforcing the code as written.

Proof: On a 20-ampere branch circuit, load an extension cord until the
current draw approached 20-amperes. It can be done ... and have a fire
extinguisher on hand ... because it most probably will burn up ... and the
circuit breaker will not trip ... until there is a dead short.


Your breakers may only trip on dead shorts. Mine trip at the rated current.

And I use cords according to their rating.


  #39   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/16/2013 3:47 PM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to bud-- , Let's get it right! wrote:
null wrote:

(B-1 is protection of the cord of a listed device) Also B-3
(protection of listed extension cords). 15A receptacles are allowed on
20A circuits. You are saying that the listing requirements of devices
and extension cords with a 15A plug do not allow them on 20A circuits?
I see no reason to believe that is true (and it would be absurd).
Perhaps a cite? Try 110.2 (approved). "Listed" apparatus is normally
"approved" and 110.3-A (examination) would not normally be done. But
110.3-B (used in accordance with listing) is applicable. Fires are
likely from not using according to the instructions.



The regulatory inspection agency has the responsibility for 110.3B also
.. and they should understand and acknowledge that Listed equipment will
be interfaced with such branch circuity protection.


As I have already explained, "listed" devices will be "approved" by the
AHJ under 110.2.

110.3 (inspection) is irrelevant to listed devices -inspectors do not
"inspect" listed devices. They determine that the listed devices are
used according to the manufactures instructions and the conditions of
listing.

You either go all the
wall with NEC ... or accept fire and shock hazards as a daily part of
life. If done in strict accordance with NEC, fire and shock hazards
should not exist. This just isn't happening in the real world!


The system is working as intended by the NEC and UL.

Anyone can submit a code change proposal.

And anyone can petition the UL to change their standards.

I am sure your proposals will be appropriately considered.

  #40   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 390
Default Breakers compatible with Federal Pacific Stab-Lok Load Center

On 12/17/2013 9:45 AM, Let's get it right! wrote:
replying to Irreverent Maximus , Let's get it right! wrote:
nospam wrote:

"bud--" wrote in message

b.com...
I guess this device should be unlisted:
http://www.cesco.com/b2c/product/471640 It appears that it accepts
both 15 and 20 amp plugs. I wonder why that

is?
I have shopped at many stores and have yet to see an appliance with a
true twenty amp plug. I am so confused...



Articles 100 thru 400 of NEC are mandatory. Only after Article 400 can
you deviate from for specific applications.

A "Listed" device is only "Protected" when applied within it's listing
requirements and labeling. If you don't provide branch circuit protection
compatible with the "Listed" device listing requirements and labeling, it
not "Protected" according to NEC. Subsequently, if you provide 20-ampere
branch circuit protection to circuit intended to interface with "Listed"
devices, the "Listed" devices will not be "Protected".


Cord overcurrent protection for listed cords and appliances is covered
in 240.5-B-1 and 3. "Listed" cords and appliances are protected when
listing requirements are followed.

A single, dedicated NEMA 5-15 receptacle is allowed to be interfaced with
a 20-ampere circuit breaker ... but not multiple 15 ampere receptacles.


A single 15A receptacle can not be the only receptacle on a 20A breaker.
Multiple 15A receptacles are allowed.

In addition, the steady state current draw on a NEMA 5-15 receptacle
should be limited to about 13-amperes (allowing for a 2-ampere margin)
according to NEC.


"Continuous" loads (over 3 hours) are limited to 80%.

When there are 2 or more receptacles, the NEC also wants an 80% limit.
This is not enforceable. And UL does not have that restriction. A 15A
load may have a 15A plug.

A 20-ampere circuit breaker would allow for a 7-ampere
margin which would expose resistive components (such as power cords) to
over 75% more real power than what they are listed at.



The power cord,
plug, etc. will burn up under such circumstances, and a fused "Listed"
device will not protect the power cord of that "Listed" device.


A "listed device" will have a cord large enough to be adequate when the
device is used according to manufacturer instructions. The cord is
allowed by the NEC (240.5-B-1).



Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Does Federal Pacific stab and lock make tandem breakers? Aaron Home Repair 19 August 4th 16 03:22 AM
skinny Federal Pacific breakers Mikepier Home Repair 19 April 24th 09 04:24 AM
Federal Pacific Circuit Breaker Box with Challenger breakers??? vic Home Repair 15 February 23rd 07 08:42 PM
Federal Pacific breakers rile Home Repair 25 January 17th 06 01:03 AM
Compatible Ckt Breakers For A LX112-24 Box by the Federal Pacific Electric Co. ? Robert11 Home Repair 7 August 9th 05 03:42 AM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 08:20 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"