[james]

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

[DerbyDad03]

James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I'm confused. You say the switch controls a "small outside light" yet you
want to run a wire from the switch to an "outlet".

What am I missing?

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:16:34 -0600, DerbyDad03 wrote
(in article ):

James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I'm confused. You say the switch controls a "small outside light" yet you
want to run a wire from the switch to an "outlet".

What am I missing?

The light was once always powered (that way when I bought the house) and I
had an electrician install a spst swittch to it so I could turn it off
without unscrewing the bulb. There is only one 2-conductor wire to the
switch and I want to power an electrical outlet from that switch wiring if
that's possible.

[philo [_2_]]

On 01/25/2014 06:52 PM, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James




That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the
outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed
electrician.

[metspitzer]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James
It won't work. What you have at the switch is a place to break the
hot wire. There is no neutral in the box.

You have to pick up power where there is a hot and a neutral. (and
ground)

[metspitzer]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:01:18 -0600, philo* wrote
(in article ):

On 01/25/2014 06:52 PM, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James




That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the
outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed
electrician.

I think I understand. Pigtail the always on hot wire to the switch and run
hot from that connection to the outlet. Pigtail neutral wire to the switch
and attach neutral from outlet. Is that right?

[philo [_2_]]

On 01/25/2014 08:40 PM, James wrote:



That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the
outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed
electrician.

I think I understand. Pigtail the always on hot wire to the switch and run
hot from that connection to the outlet. Pigtail neutral wire to the switch
and attach neutral from outlet. Is that right?




No.Absolutely not!


The two wires going to the bulb...

bring those down to the outlet. ( and ground of course)

Inside the switch box there would be no "cold" (return) wire which is
necessary.

[SteveF[_2_]]

On 1/25/2014 8:44 PM, philo wrote:
On 01/25/2014 08:40 PM, James wrote:



That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the
outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed
electrician.

I think I understand. Pigtail the always on hot wire to the switch
and run
hot from that connection to the outlet. Pigtail neutral wire to the
switch
and attach neutral from outlet. Is that right?




No.Absolutely not!


The two wires going to the bulb...

bring those down to the outlet. ( and ground of course)

Inside the switch box there would be no "cold" (return) wire which is
necessary.

Hold on there, Phil. We need to know what is in his existing box, and
the location of the new outlet.

James, you first have to determine if you have a "neutral" in the switch
box. If the answer is no, then you will have to find another means of
installing an outlet. A white wire does not necessarily mean that the
wire is a neutral. However, your method of pig tailing the hot to the
switch is correct. Pig tailing the "white/neutral" to the switch is
not.

Please get back to us with what you actually have present in the switch
box.

[harry k]

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have

Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a ground).

Outgoing to light is black, white and ground

Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other switch terminal.

Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.

That is the way it _should_ be.

To add the run to the box.

Incoming black pigtailed to switch and outgoing to box black.. Existing outgoing black remains on switch.

all three whites are wire nutted together.

Keep in mind that all switches must switch the hot wire.

Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have
Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a ground).
Outgoing to light is black, white and ground
Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other switch terminal.
Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.

That is the way it _should_ be.


No, that's the way it _could_ be.

It's possible (probable) that all he has is a single run of Romex from the
light fixture, with the black and white being used as a switched hot.

In another post he said that the light was always "on" when he bought the
house and he had an electrician install a switch. The easiest way to do
that would be to simply run a length of Romex from the fixture to a new
switch box so that the hot can be switched. Based on that post, I'm pretty
sure that there is no neutral in the switch box.

Yes, it's possible that the electrician rewired the run to the fixture,
routing a neutral through the switch box, but that seems like a lot of
extra work just to add a switch.

[harry k]

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:48:21 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?
TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have
Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a ground).
Outgoing to light is black, white and ground
Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other switch terminal.
Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.
That is the way it _should_ be.

No, that's the way it _could_ be.

It's possible (probable) that all he has is a single run of Romex from the
light fixture, with the black and white being used as a switched hot.

In another post he said that the light was always "on" when he bought the
house and he had an electrician install a switch. The easiest way to do
that would be to simply run a length of Romex from the fixture to a new
switch box so that the hot can be switched. Based on that post, I'm pretty
sure that there is no neutral in the switch box.

Yes, it's possible that the electrician rewired the run to the fixture,
routing a neutral through the switch box, but that seems like a lot of
extra work just to add a switch.

Right you are and it is indeed the most likely way the switch was added. If so, adding a box won't be simple due to the missing neutral. I would assume (and yes, I know) that the electrician would have marked the white as being a black (or red).

Harry K

[philo [_2_]]

On 01/25/2014 09:08 PM, SteveF wrote:


Inside the switch box there would be no "cold" (return) wire which is
necessary.

Hold on there, Phil. We need to know what is in his existing box, and
the location of the new outlet.

James, you first have to determine if you have a "neutral" in the switch
box. If the answer is no, then you will have to find another means of
installing an outlet. A white wire does not necessarily mean that the
wire is a neutral. However, your method of pig tailing the hot to the
switch is correct. Pig tailing the "white/neutral" to the switch is
not.

Please get back to us with what you actually have present in the switch
box.






You are right...there could be a 'cold' wire in the box...
I jumped to a conclusion because /usually/ there is not.


I think the OP should call an electrician as this is /very/ basic
and if he does not understand it...should not be dealing with it.

[micky]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:39:55 -0600, James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 19:16:34 -0600, DerbyDad03 wrote
(in article ):

James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I'm confused. You say the switch controls a "small outside light" yet you
want to run a wire from the switch to an "outlet".

What am I missing?

The light was once always powered (that way when I bought the house) and I
had an electrician install a spst swittch to it so I could turn it off
without unscrewing the bulb. There is only one 2-conductor wire to the

See the second part of my answer first.**

Only one 2-conducter cable to the switch. Where does the cable come
from? The outside light, I'll bet, but regardless.

Have you measure the voltage between ground and each side of the switch
when the swiitch is off? Maybe you have. But have you measured the
same voltages when the switch is on? They won't be the same as the
first set of measurements.

Have you measured the voltage between the two wires when the switch is
Off? Maybe you have. But have you measured the voltage between them
when the switch is On? That will probably surprise you.

Have you used a meter with 110Volt current? If not, post back so we
can discuss safety measures. For a start, never measure resistance
until after you have measured voltage between the same two places and
found that there is NO voltage. Otherwise you risk a big spark and
ruining the ohmmeter.

switch and I want to power an electrical outlet from that switch wiring if
that's possible.

**No. You're trying to put the outlet (receptacle) in parallel withr
the switch. If you do that, when the switch is off it will be like
paragraph B below. When the swtich is On the new light will get no
voltage and it won't light.

B) Or say you're putting in the receptacle in place of the switch:
When you do that, say you plug a lamp into the receptacle. Then all the
electricity that would have flowed through the switch will flow though
the new lamp. And where will it go after that? To the outside light.
So the two bulbs will have to share 110 volts. Say each bulb is the
same size and type. Then each will use 55 volts and neither will shine
bright enough to be useful.

You need to make a drawing of all the wires currently there, and in
another color, all the wires you plan to add, and look at it closely
and hopefully you'll see why this can't work.

[micky]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 05:00:19 -0600, philo* wrote:

On 01/25/2014 09:08 PM, SteveF wrote:


Inside the switch box there would be no "cold" (return) wire which is
necessary.

Hold on there, Phil. We need to know what is in his existing box, and
the location of the new outlet.

James, you first have to determine if you have a "neutral" in the switch
box. If the answer is no, then you will have to find another means of
installing an outlet. A white wire does not necessarily mean that the
wire is a neutral. However, your method of pig tailing the hot to the
switch is correct. Pig tailing the "white/neutral" to the switch is
not.

Please get back to us with what you actually have present in the switch
box.






You are right...there could be a 'cold' wire in the box...
I jumped to a conclusion because /usually/ there is not.


I think the OP should call an electrician as this is /very/ basic
and if he does not understand it...should not be dealing with it.

I think so too.

[philo [_2_]]

On 01/26/2014 05:34 AM, micky wrote:






You are right...there could be a 'cold' wire in the box...
I jumped to a conclusion because /usually/ there is not.


I think the OP should call an electrician as this is /very/ basic
and if he does not understand it...should not be dealing with it.

I think so too.




However, he should not feel bad about it.


When I was in engineering school, one of my room-mates made the same
mistake when trying to wire a switch to an outlet and I had to fix it
for him.


He went on to be on the design team for the CT-scanner at GE (Fast
Fourier transform development)
and later on the design team for the Cray-1 computer. (Logic designer)
He really was quite brilliant.


I ended up being an engineering "flunky" in the industrial
battery-charger business where I did not work with anything more hi-tech
than hi-frequency conversion and IGBT's.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 10:08:58 PM UTC-5, SteveF wrote:
On 1/25/2014 8:44 PM, philo wrote:

On 01/25/2014 08:40 PM, James wrote:







That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the

outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed

electrician.



I think I understand. Pigtail the always on hot wire to the switch

and run

hot from that connection to the outlet. Pigtail neutral wire to the

switch

and attach neutral from outlet. Is that right?









No.Absolutely not!





The two wires going to the bulb...



bring those down to the outlet. ( and ground of course)



Inside the switch box there would be no "cold" (return) wire which is

necessary.



Hold on there, Phil. We need to know what is in his existing box, and

the location of the new outlet.



James, you first have to determine if you have a "neutral" in the switch

box. If the answer is no, then you will have to find another means of

installing an outlet. A white wire does not necessarily mean that the

wire is a neutral. However, your method of pig tailing the hot to the

switch is correct. Pig tailing the "white/neutral" to the switch is

not.



Please get back to us with what you actually have present in the switch

box.

+1

Until the OP clearly explains what already exists and
what he wants to do, no use trying to decode all the possibilities.
Another critical piece of information, does the outlet have to be
powered all the time, or is it OK if it's controlled by the
light switch too?

[Stormin Mormon[_10_]]

On 1/25/2014 9:01 PM, philo wrote:


That is wrong, the outlet simply needs to go in parallel with the
outside light. If you don't know how to do that, call a licensed
electrician.

I was trying to figure that in my mind, and I
got the same thought. Can't get an outlet off
a SPST switch box.

--
..
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
..

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

[DerbyDad03]

James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.
Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the
receptacle always be hot?

There's another item to consider: Right now you have 2 conducting wires, a
ground and switch in the box. It sounds like you are planning to add 3 more
conductors and a ground to the box. The switch box might not be big enough
to meet code with all of those wires.

[Rick[_19_]]

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought
was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with
the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the
switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.
Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the
receptacle always be hot?

There's another item to consider: Right now you have 2 conducting wires, a
ground and switch in the box. It sounds like you are planning to add 3
more
conductors and a ground to the box. The switch box might not be big enough
to meet code with all of those wires.


Since the switch was added later the wiring was probably fished. He could
use the 2 conductor to pull the 3 conductor, install a switch/outlet combo,
and wire it either way....

[DerbyDad03]

"Rick" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.
Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the
receptacle always be hot?

There's another item to consider: Right now you have 2 conducting wires, a
ground and switch in the box. It sounds like you are planning to add 3 more
conductors and a ground to the box. The switch box might not be big enough
to meet code with all of those wires.


Since the switch was added later the wiring was probably fished. He could
use the 2 conductor to pull the 3 conductor, install a switch/outlet
combo, and wire it either way....

How does that address my comment about two many wires in the box?
Regardless of the method used to originally wire the switch, I don't think
the switch box is big enough for all the wires.

The fact that the OP has said "run it to the outlet" my guess is that he
does not want the receptacle in the same box as the switch.

[metspitzer]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 08:36:40 -0600, James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

You say in another message that the light was once wired hot all the
time. If that is true, instead of going into the switch just run a
two wire to the light. (BK,WT,G) You may have to use a hole saw to
make another hole in the top of the light, but you will have much more
room to make splices.

[[email protected][_2_]]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 9:45:58 AM UTC-5, DerbyDad03 wrote:
James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote

(in article ):



On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:



How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was

to

disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the

new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the

outlet

recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The

switch

only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?



TIA,

James



I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you

have in the switch box you are describing?



If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a

white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are

asking.



You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the switch

loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.

Thanks!



You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.

Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the

receptacle always be hot?



Exactly. If it's desired or at least acceptable that the switch
control both the light and the outlet, then the outlet can be
connected in parallel with the light, without running any additional
wiring. The light should have a switched hot and a neutral.

Still not clear what he has and exactly what he's trying to do.

[philo [_2_]]

On 01/26/2014 10:51 AM, wrote:
X


Exactly. If it's desired or at least acceptable that the switch
control both the light and the outlet, then the outlet can be
connected in parallel with the light, without running any additional
wiring. The light should have a switched hot and a neutral.
X


I already told that to the OP but from his reply it's obvious he does
not know what "in parallel" means and therefore should not be working on
this.

[Rick[_19_]]

"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
"Rick" wrote:
"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought
was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet
with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from
the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly.
The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it
?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the
switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the
setup.
Thanks!

You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.
Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the
receptacle always be hot?

There's another item to consider: Right now you have 2 conducting wires,
a
ground and switch in the box. It sounds like you are planning to add 3
more
conductors and a ground to the box. The switch box might not be big
enough
to meet code with all of those wires.


Since the switch was added later the wiring was probably fished. He could
use the 2 conductor to pull the 3 conductor, install a switch/outlet
combo, and wire it either way....

How does that address my comment about two many wires in the box?
Regardless of the method used to originally wire the switch, I don't think
the switch box is big enough for all the wires.

It may not be, but he won't need the two conductor cable any miore if the
swithc/outlet combo is used.


The fact that the OP has said "run it to the outlet" my guess is that he
does not want the receptacle in the same box as the switch.

I don't try to guess what somebody wants....at one time, somebody wanted a
light without a switch....

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote
(in article nk.net):

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet

recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch

only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James


Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.
Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

[james]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 09:10:44 -0600, Rick wrote
(in article ) :


"DerbyDad03" wrote in message
...
James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 20:34:25 -0600, Metspitzer wrote
(in article ):

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote:

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought
was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with
the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

I may have read what you have written wrong. How many wires do you
have in the switch box you are describing?

If you only have two wires and a ground it won't work. If you have a
white wire in the box with a wirenut on it, you can do what you are
asking.

You are right. Aftger some digging I realized I need to rewire the
switch
loop and light with 3-conductor wire to get a neutral wire in the setup.
Thanks!

You still haven't explained how the switch and receptacle will interact.
Will the switch control both the receptacle and the light or will the
receptacle always be hot?

There's another item to consider: Right now you have 2 conducting wires, a
ground and switch in the box. It sounds like you are planning to add 3
more
conductors and a ground to the box. The switch box might not be big enough
to meet code with all of those wires.


Since the switch was added later the wiring was probably fished. He could
use the 2 conductor to pull the 3 conductor, install a switch/outlet combo,
and wire it either way....


That's exactly what I did.

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 23:17:13 -0600, Harry K wrote
(in article ):

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have

Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a
ground).

Outgoing to light is black, white and ground

Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other
switch terminal.

Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.

That is the way it _should_ be.

To add the run to the box.

Incoming black pigtailed to switch and outgoing to box black.. Existing
outgoing black remains on switch.

all three whites are wire nutted together.

Keep in mind that all switches must switch the hot wire.

Harry K

Thank you for the advice. I figured it out. I didn't realize I was looking
at a switch loop so I needed a 3 conductor wire to replace the 2 conductor.

[james]

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 23:48:21 -0600, DerbyDad03 wrote
(in article ):

Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was
to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have
Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a
ground).
Outgoing to light is black, white and ground
Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other
switch terminal.
Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.

That is the way it _should_ be.


No, that's the way it _could_ be.

It's possible (probable) that all he has is a single run of Romex from the
light fixture, with the black and white being used as a switched hot.

In another post he said that the light was always "on" when he bought the
house and he had an electrician install a switch. The easiest way to do
that would be to simply run a length of Romex from the fixture to a new
switch box so that the hot can be switched. Based on that post, I'm pretty
sure that there is no neutral in the switch box.

Yes, it's possible that the electrician rewired the run to the fixture,
routing a neutral through the switch box, but that seems like a lot of
extra work just to add a switch.

Your assumption was correct. No neutral in the switch box. Fixed that with
3 conductor.

[james]

On Sun, 26 Jan 2014 03:30:47 -0600, Harry K wrote
(in article ):

On Saturday, January 25, 2014 9:48:21 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Saturday, January 25, 2014 4:52:17 PM UTC-8, James wrote:
How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was

disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with
the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the
outlet
recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The
switch
only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?
TIA,
James

If I read you right, you have
Incoming to the switch box is black, white and ground (I hope you have a
ground).
Outgoing to light is black, white and ground
Incoming black goes to switch with the outgoing black coming off the other
switch terminal.
Incoming white is wire nutted to the outgoing white.
That is the way it _should_ be.

No, that's the way it _could_ be.

It's possible (probable) that all he has is a single run of Romex from the
light fixture, with the black and white being used as a switched hot.

In another post he said that the light was always "on" when he bought the
house and he had an electrician install a switch. The easiest way to do
that would be to simply run a length of Romex from the fixture to a new
switch box so that the hot can be switched. Based on that post, I'm pretty
sure that there is no neutral in the switch box.

Yes, it's possible that the electrician rewired the run to the fixture,
routing a neutral through the switch box, but that seems like a lot of
extra work just to add a switch.

Right you are and it is indeed the most likely way the switch was added. If
so, adding a box won't be simple due to the missing neutral. I would assume
(and yes, I know) that the electrician would have marked the white as being a

black (or red).

Harry K

Wasn't remarked as it should have been hence the temporary confusion on my
part.

[DerbyDad03]

James wrote:
On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote
(in article nk.net):

How do I do this? I have done some wiring work (safely). My thought was to
disconnect the hot wire from the switch and run it to the outlet with the
new wire (black conductor of course), then run the white wire from the outlet

recoded as black to the switch. Will ground everything properly. The switch

only controls a small outside light. Is this the right way to do it ?

TIA,
James


Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.
Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?

[harry k]

On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote

Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.
Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?


How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.

Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

Harry K wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote

Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.
Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?


How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single
gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires
plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang
box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.

Harry K

Unless I'm mistaken he now has:

3 wires from the light, 2 wires to the receptacle, all grounds count as 1,
the switch counts as 2.

3+2+1+2 = 8

_If_ the box is at least 3 x 2 x 3.5, and the wire is 14 g, then he is OK.
It depends on the box installed by the electrician when the switch was
added and the size of the used by the OP.

[harry k]

On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:15:46 AM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote
Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was :
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.

Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?

How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single
gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires
plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang
box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.
Harry K

Unless I'm mistaken he now has:

3 wires from the light, 2 wires to the receptacle, all grounds count as 1,
the switch counts as 2.

3 wires to the receptacle if remote.

3+2+1+2 = 8
_If_ the box is at least 3 x 2 x 3.5, and the wire is 14 g, then he is OK.
It depends on the box installed by the electrician when the switch was
added and the size of the used by the OP.

He only has 6 conductors, 7 counting ground, if the receptacle is remote. You are counting pigtails which are not included in conductor count.

If he installed a combination receptacle/switch he only has 3 conductors and a ground.


Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:15:46 AM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
James wrote:

On Sat, 25 Jan 2014 18:52:17 -0600, James wrote
Um this was a switch loop and I failed to recognize it for what it was :
Anyhow I replaced the 2-conductor wiring from the light to the switch with
3-conductor so I would have a neutral in the switch box from the power
source. From there of course it was easy to get a working outlet. Sheesh.

Thanks to all who pointed out what I had would not work.

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?

How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single
gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires
plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang
box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.
Harry K

Unless I'm mistaken he now has:

3 wires from the light, 2 wires to the receptacle, all grounds count as 1,
the switch counts as 2.

3 wires to the receptacle if remote.

3+2+1+2 = 8
_If_ the box is at least 3 x 2 x 3.5, and the wire is 14 g, then he is OK.
It depends on the box installed by the electrician when the switch was
added and the size of the used by the OP.

He only has 6 conductors, 7 counting ground, if the receptacle is remote.
You are counting pigtails which are not included in conductor count.

If he installed a combination receptacle/switch he only has 3 conductors and a ground.


Harry K

Let's assume for the time being that the receptacle is remote

You saw how I got my number via the breakdown of wires, switches, etc.

I'll now ask you to break your number of "6" and "7".

[harry k]

On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:16:07 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:15:46 AM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:

snip

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?

How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single
gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires
plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang
box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.

Harry K

Unless I'm mistaken he now has:

3 wires from the light, 2 wires to the receptacle, all grounds count as 1,
the switch counts as 2.

3 wires to the receptacle if remote.

I had that all wrong, only two (plus ground) to the remote receptacle.

3+2+1+2 = 8

_If_ the box is at least 3 x 2 x 3.5, and the wire is 14 g, then he is OK.
It depends on the box installed by the electrician when the switch was
added and the size of the used by the OP.

He only has 6 conductors, 7 counting ground, if the receptacle is remote.

I had that wrong again, only 5 conductors for a remote box.

You are counting pigtails which are not included in conductor count.

If he installed a combination receptacle/switch he only has 3 conductors and a ground.

Harry K

Let's assume for the time being that the receptacle is remote

You saw how I got my number via the breakdown of wires, switches, etc.

I'll now ask you to break your number of "6" and "7".

I had it wrong - somehow I was counting a 3 wire to the receptacle box, it is only 2 conductors and ground. for a total of 6

You are counting wires twice going to the switch.

3 coming in of which 2 go to the switch for a total of 3. 2 going out for a total of 5 + 1 to account for the grounds. Messy part is two wire nuts for the whites and ground (3 if he has to pigtail the blacks.

Depending on how the switch is made he could stack the outgoing black to the hot side of the switch doing away with the need for one pigtail.
An extra 2 conductors do not magically appear

According to your figures one could never wire a single gang box with a switch and power beyond with 12 guage. It is done every day.

Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:16:07 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:15:46 AM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:
On Sunday, January 26, 2014 5:18:24 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:

snip

So now you have a switch box stuffed with too many wires, right?

How so? He _replaced_ the 2wire with 3-wire A normal full-depth single
gang box is more than roomy enough for a switch/receptacle and 3 wires
plus ground. Even had he puit the outlet in a separate box a single gang
box with switch only still has enough room for 6 conductors plus ground.

Harry K

Unless I'm mistaken he now has:

3 wires from the light, 2 wires to the receptacle, all grounds count as 1,
the switch counts as 2.

3 wires to the receptacle if remote.

I had that all wrong, only two (plus ground) to the remote receptacle.

3+2+1+2 = 8

_If_ the box is at least 3 x 2 x 3.5, and the wire is 14 g, then he is OK.
It depends on the box installed by the electrician when the switch was
added and the size of the used by the OP.

He only has 6 conductors, 7 counting ground, if the receptacle is remote.

I had that wrong again, only 5 conductors for a remote box.

You are counting pigtails which are not included in conductor count.

If he installed a combination receptacle/switch he only has 3 conductors and a ground.

Harry K

Let's assume for the time being that the receptacle is remote

You saw how I got my number via the breakdown of wires, switches, etc.

I'll now ask you to break your number of "6" and "7".

I had it wrong - somehow I was counting a 3 wire to the receptacle box,
it is only 2 conductors and ground. for a total of 6

You are counting wires twice going to the switch.

No, I am not. I am counting the _switch_ itself. Why aren't you? It's in
the box, you can't ignore it.

See here, as well as many other sources. The switch itself counts as 2
conductors.

http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware%20...iresinabox.htm

His 2 lengths of Romex (3+2) equals 5 conductors plus a single ground.
That's 6. The switch itself counts as 2 conductors. 6 plus 2 equals 8.

Based on the chart above, if he is using 14 g wire the box must be 3.5
inches deep.

I'll humbly eat my hat (with hot sauce) if I'm wrong, but that's my
understanding of what he has and how it works.

[harry k]

On Monday, January 27, 2014 2:04:09 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:

On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:16:07 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:


snip

You are counting wires twice going to the switch.

No, I am not. I am counting the _switch_ itself. Why aren't you? It's in
the box, you can't ignore it.

See here, as well as many other sources. The switch itself counts as 2
conductors.

http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware%20...iresinabox.htm

His 2 lengths of Romex (3+2) equals 5 conductors plus a single ground.
That's 6. The switch itself counts as 2 conductors. 6 plus 2 equals 8.

Based on the chart above, if he is using 14 g wire the box must be 3.5
inches deep.

I'll humbly eat my hat (with hot sauce) if I'm wrong, but that's my
understanding of what he has and how it works.

Looks like you are correct. I have at least two such boxes wired with 12 gauge and they were wired by a licensed electrician. Have seen such elsewhere as well.

Harry K

[DerbyDad03]

Harry K wrote:
On Monday, January 27, 2014 2:04:09 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:
Harry K wrote:

On Monday, January 27, 2014 12:16:07 PM UTC-8, DerbyDad03 wrote:


snip

You are counting wires twice going to the switch.

No, I am not. I am counting the _switch_ itself. Why aren't you? It's in
the box, you can't ignore it.

See here, as well as many other sources. The switch itself counts as 2
conductors.

http://frentzandsons.com/Hardware%20...iresinabox.htm

His 2 lengths of Romex (3+2) equals 5 conductors plus a single ground.
That's 6. The switch itself counts as 2 conductors. 6 plus 2 equals 8.

Based on the chart above, if he is using 14 g wire the box must be 3.5
inches deep.

I'll humbly eat my hat (with hot sauce) if I'm wrong, but that's my
understanding of what he has and how it works.

Looks like you are correct. I have at least two such boxes wired with 12
gauge and they were wired by a licensed electrician. Have seen such elsewhere as well.

Harry K

OK, now that we are in agreement, I have a question. I don't mean this as
any type of gloat, but I just can't figure out where some of your comments
came from.

In one response you said "You are counting pigtails." Since I detailed the
exact elements I was counting, I'm wondering how you got the impression
that I was counting pigtails.

In another response you said, "You are counting wires twice going to the
switch." Once again, since I detailed the exact elements I was counting, I
don't see where I ever did that.

I'm just trying to understand where the confusion came from. Perhaps I
could have worded my explanation differently? Any thoughts?