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#1
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
Hi folks,
I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. |
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#2
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. |
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#3
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#4
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/19/2019 10:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? If you blow a breaker at night you will be left in the dark. What are you doing in the shed? Power tools? If so, rethink and bring 240 out there and split it. Even with 120, put a small box for two breakers and split the lights and plug so you can reset right there, not in the house. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, there is a limit to wire size and number. I've not done anything for a long time so I'm rusty on code. I'd get the electrician out there and go over the layout and get his recommendations on what is best. In the long run it will be cheaper. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Best to have him look. |
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#5
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:11:04 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote:
On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Rethinking that, you also need a disconnect at the shed. They have GFCI that are just that, no receptacle and I think they can be used as the disconnect. So, you could use one of those. Or a switch, then a GFCI receptacle. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. |
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#6
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. Don't let the internet pedantics screw with you too much. 1/2" is probably fine if you run enough wire in there initially (7 legal but maybe not possible). I think 5 is plenty. That gives you 240v capability and an extra switch loop. That will be a tug and use lube. 3/4th is too damned close in price to be worth the hassle. 8 gauge is just silly. What is your load going to be? A weed eater? Some other garden tool? It will just run an imperceptible amount slower .If you had an induction motor load I might worry but don;t get silly. It is a damned shed. If you think it will be a shop some day use 1" and use a #12 to pull in your 4ga. |
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#7
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:56:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:11:04 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Rethinking that, you also need a disconnect at the shed. They have GFCI that are just that, no receptacle and I think they can be used as the disconnect. So, you could use one of those. Or a switch, then a GFCI receptacle. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. He gets a huge huss in the NEC if this is a 15/20a GFCI protected circuit on dwelling property. (12" burial depth and a break on the disconnect). I would still want a snap switch (but I can be a hard ass :-) ) |
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#8
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. A permit is a good idea. I got one for building the shed, so I know the procedure now. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? I really doubt it. I've never needed 240V anywhere else in all these years. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Good point. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. I used the calculators he https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop and http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCal...ookieSupport=1 My inputs were 120v, 120 feet, 3% voltage drop, conduit. Both came up with 8ga wire. Looking at Home Depot's selection of UF cable from Southwire, it looks like it comes in lengths of 100 and 250 feet. Crap, I'd need the 250 and I'd have a bunch left over. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. I only see 2000ft rolls of THWN. I'm not the intended customer for a roll that size, especially since I'd need 3 rolls to get 3 jacket colors. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. I see this 150ft roll of 10/2 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Wire-Underground-Feeder-Direct-Burial/dp/B077XM19M5/ref=sr_1_5?crid=4ZPN9M8W4FWZ&keywords=uf+cable+10% 2F3&qid=1574234435&sprefix=uf+cable%2Caps%2C144&sr =8-5 Is that what you're recommending? Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. Excellent, thanks. I appreciate the info. |
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#9
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:56:25 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 11:11:04 PM UTC-5, trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Rethinking that, you also need a disconnect at the shed. They have GFCI that are just that, no receptacle and I think they can be used as the disconnect. So, you could use one of those. Or a switch, then a GFCI receptacle. I like the idea of a disconnect at the shed. Thanks for the suggestions. |
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#10
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#11
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He has his markup, of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your shed to gather dust. I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe aluminum wire would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it, though. |
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#13
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
You might as well put in a red wire and make it a 240 volt circuit. When going to the expense and trouble of running 120 feet underground you may be glad you did at a later date. +1 YEP now is the time to look ahead. Phone wire? Coax cable? Ethernet cable? or a least a few strings so you can pull cables later Mark |
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#14
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/20/2019 8:57 AM, Ed Pawlowski wrote:
On 11/20/2019 3:02 AM, Jim Joyce wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 00:18:23 -0500, wrote: Don't let the internet pedantics screw with you too much. It's all good.  1/2" is probably fine if you run enough wire in there initially (7 legal but maybe not possible). I think 5 is plenty. That gives you 240v capability and an extra switch loop.Â* That will be a tug and use lube. 3/4th is too damned close in price to be worth the hassle. Good so far. 8 gauge is just silly. What is your load going to be? A weed eater? Some other garden tool? It will just run an imperceptible amount slower .If you had an induction motor load I might worry but don;t get silly. It is a damned shed. If you think it will be a shop some day use 1" and use a #12 to pull in your 4ga. Let's see, I'm thinking of a 4ft LED work light, a transistor radio, a weed eater, another light on the exterior of the shed, and worst case, one serious power tool such as a miter saw rated for 12A. 99% of the time that power is being used, it would likely just be the interior work light and the radio. The other stuff would rarely be used, but I want to plan for it. So 10g and not 8ga, then? I used 10 to my garage and had no problem running a table saw and other tools. Â* I used 4/0 aluminum for the 50 foot run to the shop ... but then I ran a 220V/100A service . Machine tools and welding machines need a bit more juice than your average table saw . -- Snag Yes , I'm old and crochety - and armed . Get outta my woods ! |
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#16
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#17
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#18
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/20/2019 11:31 AM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:45:48 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) wrote: writes: You might as well put in a red wire and make it a 240 volt circuit. When going to the expense and trouble of running 120 feet underground you may be glad you did at a later date. +1 YEP now is the time to look ahead. Phone wire? Coax cable? Ethernet cable? Do not run any of those in the same raceway/conduit that has power conductors. Run a parallel conduit. I won't be running any of those particular cables since we won't be living out there. My wife will occasionally be potting her plants, or transferring them to bigger pots, so I've built her a 10ft workbench along the windowed wall. She plays music and podcasts on her cell phone, so having a radio/stereo is a luxury that might not even get used. We've had back yard storage sheds at some of our previous houses and never had power run to any of them. There were times when it would have been nice, but frankly I'm wondering why I'm even doing it at all. At some point you will be glad you did. Do something at night, run a space heater, run a tool. You may want to consider putting a security light on it facing the house. Motion sensor or remote switching would be nice to have. |
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#19
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. A permit is a good idea. I got one for building the shed, so I know the procedure now. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? I really doubt it. I've never needed 240V anywhere else in all these years. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Good point. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. I used the calculators he https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop and http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCal...ookieSupport=1 My inputs were 120v, 120 feet, 3% voltage drop, conduit. Both came up with 8ga wire. 10g gives 4.5% drop at 125 ft, I could live with that, unless you have something that's very intolerant and that's at the full 20a capacity. Running a saw etc, should be fine. Lights are led now. If I wanted more, I would do what others have suggested, stick with 10g, add another conductor and you have 240v, you can do an Edison circuit and have two 20a 120v circuits, double the capacity. Looking at Home Depot's selection of UF cable from Southwire, it looks like it comes in lengths of 100 and 250 feet. Crap, I'd need the 250 and I'd have a bunch left over. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. I only see 2000ft rolls of THWN. HD sells it by the foot. I'm not the intended customer for a roll that size, especially since I'd need 3 rolls to get 3 jacket colors. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. I see this 150ft roll of 10/2 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Wire-Underground-Feeder-Direct-Burial/dp/B077XM19M5/ref=sr_1_5?crid=4ZPN9M8W4FWZ&keywords=uf+cable+10% 2F3&qid=1574234435&sprefix=uf+cable%2Caps%2C144&sr =8-5 Is that what you're recommending? That's it. Fretwell pointed out that if you put a gfci at the house, you can bury it 12" deep, instead of 18,but if the trencher can easily do 18,maybe it does not matter much. Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together.. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. Excellent, thanks. I appreciate the info. |
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#20
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:30:59 -0600, Dean Hoffman
wrote: On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He has his markup, of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your shed to gather dust. If I go with UF-B, it looks like I can use the leftovers for inside wiring to the lights and receptacles, so I could easily use the whole 150ft. I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe aluminum wire would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it, though. I know AL is still used for some purposes, but I thin I want to stick with CU. |
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#21
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) |
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#22
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? No, I did not. Ugh! Also, that panel is full, yet the youtube videos all show that a new breaker is used to feed the sub-panel. However, there's no room for a new breaker. I suppose one option would be to use an existing breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel, and then whatever that breaker *was* feeding would be fed from a new breaker in the sub-panel. I hope I described that properly. Does the new sub-panel need a plywood backer board? It'll be mounted to the exterior of the (brick) house. If so, does the backer board need to be painted black? One of the YT videos said some jurisdictions have those requirements, but I haven't checked locally. Lastly, what about a separate ground rod for the sub-panel, or can it get ground from the main panel? This is starting to get complicated. |
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#23
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) |
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#24
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) You're right. Also he may have, or put in later, barrels of beer in the basement so he should put in a hose to take that straight to the shed. He'd have the only shed on the block with beer on tap. |
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#25
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 10:31:16 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:45:48 GMT, (Scott Lurndal) wrote: writes: You might as well put in a red wire and make it a 240 volt circuit. When going to the expense and trouble of running 120 feet underground you may be glad you did at a later date. +1 YEP now is the time to look ahead. Phone wire? Coax cable? Ethernet cable? Do not run any of those in the same raceway/conduit that has power conductors. Run a parallel conduit. I won't be running any of those particular cables since we won't be living out there. My wife will occasionally be potting her plants, or transferring In that case, the beer tap is even more important. them to bigger pots, so I've built her a 10ft workbench along the windowed wall. She plays music and podcasts on her cell phone, so having a radio/stereo is a luxury that might not even get used. We've had back yard storage sheds at some of our previous houses and never had power run to any of them. There were times when it would have been nice, but frankly I'm wondering why I'm even doing it at all. |
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#26
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/20/2019 4:48 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) Easy to do with Smart Plugs or X10 devices. I had a wireless intercom in a detached garage as well as a light on and X10 plug. . |
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#27
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On 11/20/2019 4:47 PM, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? No, I did not. Ugh! Also, that panel is full, yet the youtube videos all show that a new breaker is used to feed the sub-panel. However, there's no room for a new breaker. I suppose one option would be to use an existing breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel, and then whatever that breaker *was* feeding would be fed from a new breaker in the sub-panel. I hope I described that properly. Does the new sub-panel need a plywood backer board? It'll be mounted to the exterior of the (brick) house. If so, does the backer board need to be painted black? One of the YT videos said some jurisdictions have those requirements, but I haven't checked locally. Lastly, what about a separate ground rod for the sub-panel, or can it get ground from the main panel? This is starting to get complicated. May be possible to swap breakers for half size. Depends on what you have and panel limits by code. |
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#28
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:47:03 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote:
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? No, I did not. Ugh! IDK, with the sub-panel full and those major loads already on it, it doesn't sound too good. I hope it's bigger than 100A. Dryer 30 HVAC 30 Stove 40 or Ovens + Cooktop 60.... Also, that panel is full, yet the youtube videos all show that a new breaker is used to feed the sub-panel. However, there's no room for a new breaker. I suppose one option would be to use an existing breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel, and then whatever that breaker *was* feeding would be fed from a new breaker in the sub-panel. I hope I described that properly. Yes, that's what you do. Or as Ed suggested, if it's a panel where half size breakers are available, you could free up space and not need the additional sub-panel. Does the new sub-panel need a plywood backer board? It'll be mounted to the exterior of the (brick) house. IDK of any code reqt that say so. I think it depends on what the subpanel is being used for. If it's in a basement and and romex is going to run into it, then they use a backer board which gives you a place to staple the cables to as the enter the panel. But I've seen other sub-panels outside for pools and such that are just mounted directly to the house siding and where the wires enter and exit via conduit. That' what you'd have, with the UF cable going through conduit until it gets underground or if you use conduit and individual wires. With brick exterior, I'd probably use a backer board, just to keep it off the brick which can be damp. If so, does the backer board need to be painted black? One of the YT videos said some jurisdictions have those requirements, Sounds like BS to me. I've seen a lot of them, never saw one painted black yet. It's not part of the NEC, that's for sure. but I haven't checked locally. Lastly, what about a separate ground rod for the sub-panel, or can it get ground from the main panel? It has to be grounded from the main panel. The ground and neutral also remain separate at the sup-panel. This is starting to get complicated. It will be more so if there isn't enough capacity in that sub-panel. |
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#29
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 01:35:30 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: There are a few things here you may have heard about that are wrong. First the 3% is just a recommendation now a real rule and that would be based on you actually using all of that 20a at one time. 16a is a more realistic max design load (80% of your 20a). At 16a your #10 will drop 4.64v or 3.8%. Bear in mind that is a max continuous load for a 20 a circuit. If you want to use the "dwelling" exception to the 18" deep for conduit and 24" deep for UF rule, the GFCI protection needs to be at the house end of the circuit. If you are burying this 18" or 24" anyway that might not be important. You can get THHN/THWN conductors in 500' spools at home depot or they will sell it to you by the foot. The same "by the foot" is true of UF. If you would never use the left over, that premium they charge by the foot will come out cheaper. Just be sure you buy enough so you don't come up short. If you up size the current carrying conductors, you also need to up size the ground so it will end up the same size on a 20a circuit. (not #12). Code wise, you would be in violation with most UF cable since the ground for a #8 is typically #10 unless you specifically get the style with an 8ga ground. That will not be at Home Depot. For that reason alone, #10 would be a better choice. The reality is you would have a hard time finding a piece of cord and plug connected equipment that pulls more than 1440 watts. (12 amps). You have to seriously ask, "what are you really going to be doing out there"? If this is just a shed with a light, a receptacle for yard equipment and maybe a 1440w heater now and then. I bet #12 would be OK and #10 should be perfect. If you go much beyond that, like a sub panel, you will be driving ground rods, installing disconnects etc and this gets a tad more complicated. The simple answer is #10/2 for the underground. GFCI at the house so you can bury 12". They may want a local disconnect depending on your AHJ but it can just be a 20a rated snap switch and I would do the rest of the distribution in the shed with #12. If you really think you might change your mind and want a shop or something out there use conduit but if this is one and done, UF is fine. Personally I like wire in pipe but I also change my mind about things. If you do decide #8 is for you, it will be wire in pipe anyway unless you go to a real electrical supply and get 8/8/8 UF. Legally you can run 3 # 8s in a 1/2 inch but I would never try to actually pull that 120'. 3/4 or even 1' is a better choice and buy a bottle of lube. If I have a long run like that I squirt a little in the pipe every couple of sticks as I am putting it together, particularly in elbows. The pull goes a lot easier. On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. 1. I have called 811 - Call before you dig. They'll be coming out on Thursday of this week to locate and mark all of the underground utilities. 2. I will be using a licensed electrician to connect the new service to the existing service, but other than that final step everything else is on me. I have experience with switches and fixtures, but not with the other aspects of the project. Permit? If you're going to get an electrician out there anyway, might be easier and not much more for you to just dig the trench, let them do the rest. A permit is a good idea. I got one for building the shed, so I know the procedure now. 3. The rest of the 120VAC circuits in my home are 20A circuits, so by default I'm planning to make this new circuit 20A as well. I believe a single 120VAC circuit should be fine for both lights and receptacles out there. The biggest load I can envision is possibly running a miter saw, which is rated at 12A. Just in case I take that saw out there, I think a 15A circuit might be stretching it thin. Having extra capacity isn't a bad idea. Any chance you;d need 240V for anything? I really doubt it. I've never needed 240V anywhere else in all these years. Q: Any issues with a single new 20A circuit for both lights and receptacles? Not that I'm aware of. Make sure it's on a GFCI. Probably best to put a GFCI receptacle as the first point in the shed. That way if it trips, you can reset it there. Good point. 4. Web calculators say I should use 8AWG wire for this circuit because the run is about 120 feet, from the exterior of the house to the exterior of the shed. I'm planning to buy 3 solid copper wires, 8AWG, in colors white (neutral), black (hot), and green (ground). This is instead of a packaged cable such as Romex because I think it will be less expensive to buy individual wires and because it might be easier to pull 3 wires through conduit than to pull Romex. 8 sounds like over kill to me, don't know what calculator you're using. Generally, 12g is used for 20A. Since it's a 125 ft run, I'd go down to 10g. You can run individual conductors, but you can just use UF cable and it will be easier/cheaper. I used the calculators he https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop and http://www.paigewire.com/pumpWireCal...ookieSupport=1 My inputs were 120v, 120 feet, 3% voltage drop, conduit. Both came up with 8ga wire. Looking at Home Depot's selection of UF cable from Southwire, it looks like it comes in lengths of 100 and 250 feet. Crap, I'd need the 250 and I'd have a bunch left over. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. THHN is not rated for wet locations. You need THWN. The minimum ground size for 20A is 12g. I only see 2000ft rolls of THWN. I'm not the intended customer for a roll that size, especially since I'd need 3 rolls to get 3 jacket colors. 5. I'm planning to use conduit versus direct-bury wire. Web calculators seem to indicate that 1/2 inch conduit is fine, but I was thinking about using 1 inch to make pulling the wires easier. I'm also open to using 3/4 inch conduit. Use UF, skip the conduit. I see this 150ft roll of 10/2 on Amazon: https://www.amazon.com/Wire-Underground-Feeder-Direct-Burial/dp/B077XM19M5/ref=sr_1_5?crid=4ZPN9M8W4FWZ&keywords=uf+cable+10% 2F3&qid=1574234435&sprefix=uf+cable%2Caps%2C144&sr =8-5 Is that what you're recommending? Q: Does code mandate a minimum conduit size? (Conduit fill) Does common sense suggest a different (larger) size? Also, does conduit get assembled as dry press fit, or does it get glued, section by section? Yes, yes. If you use conduit, I'd go with 3/4". It gets glued together. 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. 7. The conduit will be buried by using a trencher. My understanding is that electrical conduit needs to be buried at least 18 inches deep, whereas if I went with direct bury I'd have to go 24 inches deep. That's correct. Q: Any advice on the use of conduit versus direct bury cable? *** Once I get power to the shed, I'm good with the project after that. I appreciate any help I can get with the questions above or anything I might be overlooking. If you have to pull a permit and have it inspected, which would be the case in most locations, I would consider doing the trenching and having the electrician do the rest. He has to come out and do a subpanel anyway, installing a couple receptacles and light isn't that much more and you know it will pass. Or at least get it quoted that way before deciding. Excellent, thanks. I appreciate the info. |
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#30
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:37:01 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:30:59 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He has his markup, of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your shed to gather dust. If I go with UF-B, it looks like I can use the leftovers for inside wiring to the lights and receptacles, so I could easily use the whole 150ft. I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe aluminum wire would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it, though. I know AL is still used for some purposes, but I thin I want to stick with CU. You are going to find that if you are wiring devices with #10 you better have greatly oversized boxes or you will have a real hard time stuffing that wire back in there. The fill calc for #10 is 2 cu/in per conductor and 4 more cu/in for the device. That adds up fast and the minimum size you come up with still might be hard to use. You will also be using industrial grade 20a devices to find ones that will accept 10 ga wire. Most 15 and 20a devices are limited to 12 ga. |
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#31
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:47:00 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? No, I did not. Ugh! Also, that panel is full, yet the youtube videos all show that a new breaker is used to feed the sub-panel. However, there's no room for a new breaker. I suppose one option would be to use an existing breaker in the main panel to feed the sub-panel, and then whatever that breaker *was* feeding would be fed from a new breaker in the sub-panel. I hope I described that properly. Does the new sub-panel need a plywood backer board? It'll be mounted to the exterior of the (brick) house. If so, does the backer board need to be painted black? One of the YT videos said some jurisdictions have those requirements, but I haven't checked locally. Lastly, what about a separate ground rod for the sub-panel, or can it get ground from the main panel? This is starting to get complicated. You can replace one of the single pole breakers with a tandem and get an extra circuit that way. |
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#32
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-) |
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#33
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#34
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:02 -0500, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:24:51 -0500, wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-) You have a point about learning when dinner is ready, but you can't get beer from cell phone. Since we're throwing ideas around and since beer was mentioned, I'm reminded that the local Habitat ReStore has about 30-40 used mini fridges in the store, priced at $20 each. Looks like they came from a hotel. It might be nice to grab a pair and bookend the workbench. The problem would be keeping them fully stocked with beer while not wasting any space on water. |
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#35
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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#36
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired". I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather I'm sure it does. They stopped saying "back-stabbed" because it encouraged violence. They haven't come up with a 3rd method. **Just kidding. something more substantial. I may have to hold one in my hand to see what back wired is all about. |
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#37
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:28:02 -0800 (PST), trader_4
wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 4:47:03 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 12:53:55 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Wednesday, November 20, 2019 at 2:35:33 AM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: On Tue, 19 Nov 2019 20:10:58 -0800 (PST), trader_4 wrote: On Tuesday, November 19, 2019 at 10:33:25 PM UTC-5, Jim Joyce wrote: 6. The house has a 240VAC breaker box on the exterior wall, with no room for an additional breaker, so I'm planning to buy a small 2-circuit sub-panel that I'd attach to the house, right next to the existing 240VAC panel. I would ask the electrician to connect the sub-panel to the existing 240VAC panel. Q: I assume the electrician can create a new circuit from the 240VAC panel. Are there any issues with that plan? Should be OK, depending of course on what other loads are on the existing panel. That panel is dedicated to the kitchen range, the clothes dryer, and the HVAC. Doh! I hope there is enough capacity. Did you add up all the loads compared to the capacity? No, I did not. Ugh! IDK, with the sub-panel full and those major loads already on it, it doesn't sound too good. I hope it's bigger than 100A. Dryer 30 HVAC 30 Stove 40 or Ovens + Cooktop 60.... Load calcs don't usually work that way. If he has resistance heat you can rack up some numbers pretty fast but the FLA on AC compressors are nowhere near the breaker you need to support them. Ranges get calculated at 8 KVA (33a). Dryers typically have a name plate rating around 5500-5600 VA (22-23a). You also can use a 75% demand factor if there are 4 or more in the calc. The 2020 is going to revisit the load calcs in Article 220 but it will mostly be in commercial. I haven't really seen all the changes tho. Does the new sub-panel need a plywood backer board? It'll be mounted to the exterior of the (brick) house. IDK of any code reqt that say so. I think it depends on what the subpanel is being used for. If it's in a basement and and romex is going to run into it, then they use a backer board which gives you a place to staple the cables to as the enter the panel. But I've seen other sub-panels outside for pools and such that are just mounted directly to the house siding and where the wires enter and exit via conduit. That' what you'd have, with the UF cable going through conduit until it gets underground or if you use conduit and individual wires. With brick exterior, I'd probably use a backer board, just to keep it off the brick which can be damp. What the code does say is if this is against a masonry wall, the enclosure needs to be spaced out 1/4" if it is not on a board. (The AHJ may consider any exterior masonry wall a damp location) As you say, it makes supporting the cables or conduits a lot easier with some kind of board. On outdoor installations the (NEMA) 3R enclosures usually have raised points where the mounting is to get you that air space so plywood is not needed. I am not sure plywood will hold up that well outside anyway. Mounted vertically it would certainly have to have the edges sealed (paint or something) or it will be de laminating in a year or two. I have never seen a rule on color but I have seen some AHJs say they wanted flame retardant paint. I am not sure where they get that rule. |
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#38
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 21:34:02 -0500, micky
wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:24:51 -0500, wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:48:58 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 16:44:18 -0500, micky wrote: In alt.home.repair, on Tue, 19 Nov 2019 21:33:23 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. If I were putting in electric, I'd also run cat6 internet, coax for tv, and phone line if I had a home phone and the cordless reception in the shed wasn't good. Even if I didnt' connect some of it at either end, I'd have it for the future. Cable internet is more reliable than wifi, and wifi has distance limitations. Phone line is so cheap I'd run it anyhow in case the next owner wanted it. I'd probably run speaker wires too, so I could listen to the same thing in the house and the shed without turning on two devices, but I suppose most people don't care about that anymore. And maybe a speaking tube so you could call back to your house, and a pneumatic tube so you could send papers back and forth. ;-) What about some kind of smart device that the wife can turn on from the kitchen to let me know that dinner's ready? :-) These days isn't that all in your cell phone? If you really think you need signaling out there you could drop another 3/4" conduit in the trench for about $40 but that is so 20th century. ;-) You have a point about learning when dinner is ready, but you can't get beer from cell phone. That is why he needs a beer fridge out there. What do you think he wants the power for in the first place? |
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#39
Posted to alt.home.repair
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 22:28:26 -0600, Jim Joyce
wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 20:18:33 -0500, wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 15:37:01 -0600, Jim Joyce wrote: On Wed, 20 Nov 2019 05:30:59 -0600, Dean Hoffman wrote: On 11/19/19 9:33 PM, Jim Joyce wrote: Hi folks, I'm planning to run a new electrical circuit out to a storage shed in my back yard and I'd like some help with the details. I'm the homeowner and I'll be doing most of the work myself, but I want it to be safe and up to code. Q: Any issues so far? I know the black and white wires need to be 8AWG, but does the green (ground) also need to be 8AWG? Am I looking for wire labeled THHN or is it something different? I'm buying everything at the local Home Depot. I'd sure ask the electrician about buying the wire from him. He has his markup, of course, but you won't be buying stuff to throw in the corner of your shed to gather dust. If I go with UF-B, it looks like I can use the leftovers for inside wiring to the lights and receptacles, so I could easily use the whole 150ft. I'm used to using quad 4 aluminum and larger in my world. Maybe aluminum wire would be a cheaper choice. You boxes would have to be rated for it, though. I know AL is still used for some purposes, but I thin I want to stick with CU. You are going to find that if you are wiring devices with #10 you better have greatly oversized boxes or you will have a real hard time stuffing that wire back in there. The fill calc for #10 is 2 cu/in per conductor and 4 more cu/in for the device. That adds up fast and the minimum size you come up with still might be hard to use. I have plenty of room, so using a bigger box to get room to work wouldn't be a problem. I haven't bought any of that stuff yet. Nobody ever complained that this box was too big ;-) You will also be using industrial grade 20a devices to find ones that will accept 10 ga wire. Most 15 and 20a devices are limited to 12 ga. I just now checked the Leviton site and it seemed like nearly every switch can accommodate 10ga wire "back wired", but only 12ga if it's "side wired". I hope "back wired" doesn't refer to that push-in method but rather something more substantial. I may have to hold one in my hand to see what back wired is all about. They mean the clamping plate that is under the screw on better devices. That is true on spec/commercial grade devices but your normal Home Depot $1 special just has screw terminals and maybe the dreaded spring back stab hole. |
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#40
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New electrical circuit - requesting assistance
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