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Having trouble soldering copper pipe



 
 
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  #1  
Old October 23rd 07, 04:33 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,303
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.



At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

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  #2  
Old October 23rd 07, 05:13 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.

  #3  
Old October 23rd 07, 05:24 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,303
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

wrote:

On Oct 23, 8:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:


At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......



That's okay, I should have explained what I was already doing better
anyway.


Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?



Yes, at least on most of my attempts I've been removing the elbow
completely (and replacing it with a new one) so I can see down the
supply end of the pipe and no water is anywhere near the top. A
couple times (I mentioned I made a LOT of attempts), when I tried to
just fix the minor leak by adding more solder, there may have been
some water those times... but I've tried both.


Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?



Yes, with a wire brush, that 4-in-1 tool made for the job. I don't
spend a hole lot of time on the inside of the elbows though, because
they are brand-new and already really shiny. I just insert the wire
brush and maybe 6 or 8 twists... I then use toilet paper or paper
towel (I've tried both because I'm not positive, but I don't think
either have any "oils" or perfumes in them, which I know would be a
bad thing) to remove any oil and/or dust.


Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?



Yes, "paste" flux. I do notice that it runs down the pipe most of the
time, when I start to heat the elbow. Mostly on the end of the elbow
pointing downwards, which I imagine isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how
to avoid this. I was using too much flux at first, but now I just put
a thin coat on.


Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"



I think I'll try doing one end at a time again. It wasn't working
very well, I think, because I was applying the heat around the middle
of the elbow. I was worried that applying the heat to close to the
end of the elbow, may heat the pipe faster than the fitting, or not
heat the fitting far enough inside so I may only get solder around the
edge.


Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.



Thanks Jeff. Could be.




I'm leaning toward your not getting the elbow and pipe hot enough before
you apply the solder. You should be anble to see the molten solder suck
into the joint through capillary attraction and flow around the
circumference of the end of the fitting if things are going right.

Is the elbow located in a restricted position where you can't get the
torch flame very far "around it? If so, sticking a piece of sheet metal
an inch or so behind the joint can help "reflect" some of the torch's
heat to that side of the fitting.

Keep trying, it's not rocket surgery, and you can only succeed as far as
you dare to fail.


One other thing that is going to keep me up at night... is there any
way to really know if you made a good solder? If it doesn't leak
after a couple days, could it still be a "bad" connection and start to
leak after a couple years? I know any connection could leak after a
couple years for various reasons, so maybe the question doesn't really
have the kind of answer I'm looking for.... what I really want to
know, is how can anyone be sure that they did a good job.
Unfortunately, based on past experiences, hiring a professional
doesn't give me any more peice of mind, again, unless I had some way
to check their work, but then I could just use that same method to
check my work (and only call a pro if I couldn't get it right). I
guess the only plus with hiring someone else, is that I have someone
to sue, but I probably wouldn't bother sueing anyway, so guess that
doesn't matter for me.




Hydraulic (water) pressure testing of plumbing systems is done, but
usually only on new construction. I've never heard of a plumber doing a
"repair" job on something in a home doing that, but if you want to learn
a little more about it look he

http://tinyurl.com/yopt2w

The only time I ever experienced a soldered copper fitting "blow right
off" was nearly 50 years ago a couple of months after I'd moved into a
basement apartment in a brand new building. An elbow blew off in the
kitchen of the apartment above mine in the middle of the night. My
neighbor noticed water running out from under my entry door in the
morning and woke me. What a MESS. Being a bachelor, my kitchen cabinets
held more than just food, and I lost a few things I wish I still had,
among them a 1940's Contax 35mm camera with "Geheime Staatspolizei"
(Gestapo) engraved on its back, brought back from WWII by a returning
GI. My tenant's insurance paid me a decent amount for it, with the
condition that they got to keep it.

Jeff
--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.

  #4  
Old October 23rd 07, 05:53 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 8:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:

At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......


That's okay, I should have explained what I was already doing better
anyway.

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?


Yes, at least on most of my attempts I've been removing the elbow
completely (and replacing it with a new one) so I can see down the
supply end of the pipe and no water is anywhere near the top. A
couple times (I mentioned I made a LOT of attempts), when I tried to
just fix the minor leak by adding more solder, there may have been
some water those times... but I've tried both.

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?


Yes, with a wire brush, that 4-in-1 tool made for the job. I don't
spend a hole lot of time on the inside of the elbows though, because
they are brand-new and already really shiny. I just insert the wire
brush and maybe 6 or 8 twists... I then use toilet paper or paper
towel (I've tried both because I'm not positive, but I don't think
either have any "oils" or perfumes in them, which I know would be a
bad thing) to remove any oil and/or dust.

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?


Yes, "paste" flux. I do notice that it runs down the pipe most of the
time, when I start to heat the elbow. Mostly on the end of the elbow
pointing downwards, which I imagine isn't ideal, but I'm not sure how
to avoid this. I was using too much flux at first, but now I just put
a thin coat on.

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"


I think I'll try doing one end at a time again. It wasn't working
very well, I think, because I was applying the heat around the middle
of the elbow. I was worried that applying the heat to close to the
end of the elbow, may heat the pipe faster than the fitting, or not
heat the fitting far enough inside so I may only get solder around the
edge.

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.


Thanks Jeff. Could be.

One other thing that is going to keep me up at night... is there any
way to really know if you made a good solder? If it doesn't leak
after a couple days, could it still be a "bad" connection and start to
leak after a couple years? I know any connection could leak after a
couple years for various reasons, so maybe the question doesn't really
have the kind of answer I'm looking for.... what I really want to
know, is how can anyone be sure that they did a good job.
Unfortunately, based on past experiences, hiring a professional
doesn't give me any more peice of mind, again, unless I had some way
to check their work, but then I could just use that same method to
check my work (and only call a pro if I couldn't get it right). I
guess the only plus with hiring someone else, is that I have someone
to sue, but I probably wouldn't bother sueing anyway, so guess that
doesn't matter for me.

  #5  
Old October 23rd 07, 05:57 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,505
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:
wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...


One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.


The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).


I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.


At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......

Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?

Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?

Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?

Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"

Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.

HTH,

Jeff

--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper. Make sure you clean the inside of the new
fitting too and then apply flux. Using the wire brushes that are
made specifically for that is the best way. They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.


  #6  
Old October 23rd 07, 06:06 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 366
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.

You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
inspection mirror.

I've found, when teaching people to solder, that they should PRACTICE
on some scrap stuff first to get good technique. In dealing with
plumbing, most of the problems are due to much too much heat. You just
want enough heat so that the solder just flows easily. Dirt is your
enemy. Emery paper, wire brushes, and steel wool are your best
friends. Flux simply serves to remove final bit of surface oxidation.

I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
later.

Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.

Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
pipe.

Hope this helps..

  #7  
Old October 23rd 07, 06:08 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 9:57 am, wrote:
I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.


I'll have to do this if I can't get it after several more tries. At
least then I can do the elbow part on my workbench, where I can easily
get to all sides and rotate the part as well. Then do the coupling
inside the wall, where it is harder to get around to the back side...
but I've already done two couplings inside the wall, so hopefully this
one would also go easily.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper.


I'll try this. I just don't want to sand too much, and end up making
the pipe weak. It does seem like I should be able to sand just a bit
more though, until the solder color is gone. The solder only bonds to
the surface of the pipe, right? So the pipe should stay the same
thickness as long as I only sand until the solder is gone.

They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.


This is the tool I have, love it -- as much as one that is starting to
hate plumbing can love any kind of plumbing tool. At least with the
masonry and woodworking projects I do, they will not flood my house if
done incorrectly.

  #8  
Old October 23rd 07, 06:12 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 289
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 12:57 pm, wrote:
On Oct 23, 11:33 am, Jeff Wisnia wrote:





wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...


One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.


The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).


I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.


At the risk of telling things you probably already know and are doing.......


Are you SURE there's no water left in the pipes which is somehow keeping
the pipe from getting up to soldering temperature?


Are you cleaning the INSIDE of the part of the elbows which fit over the
pipe ends, using a wire brush or abrasive cloth until they are bright
and shiny copper?


Are you using a decent paste flux wiped onto the pipe ends and the
inside the elbows?


Heating in the middle is not necessarily the best way to do it, you
should probably move the flame from one side of the elbow to the other
while heating if you're going to solder both ends "at once"


Other than that, I can't think of why you're having problems with one
elbow unless someone's put a curse on your plumbing.


HTH,


Jeff


--
Jeffry Wisnia
(W1BSV + Brass Rat '57 EE)
The speed of light is 1.8*10^12 furlongs per fortnight.- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


I'd cut the pipe back and add a coupling. You say you keep sanding
the used pipe ends and get it to clean solder, but the problem may be
beneath the solder. For example, if the pipe was not initially
properly cleaned and fluxed, the problem may be under the thin solder
coating that is left, where there is some contamination causing
problems again each time it reflows.

The other choice is to sand off all the solder on the end of the pipe
down to bright copper. Make sure you clean the inside of the new
fitting too and then apply flux. Using the wire brushes that are
made specifically for that is the best way. They also make them for
use on the outside of the pipe and work much better than sandpaper.
They look like a doughnut and you just rotate it around the end of the
pipe.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Usually you can just flux and reheat the pipe that has some solder
left on it and use steel wool to scrub and wipe it off while molten.
Pre-tinned the joints go together even easier.
Try warming the pipe with the torch before dry fitting the parts, you
would be amazed how much steam some condensation can make and it will
push molten solder out of it's path.

  #9  
Old October 23rd 07, 06:23 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 259
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 11:13 am, wrote:
I'm redoing my shower, all 1/2" copper pipes. I've done two couplers,
1 elbow, and 3 threaded connectors... and they all went fine. Just
one other elbow had a small leak. I tried at least 10 times last
night and continue to have leaks. Maybe I just need to try again
tonight with a fresh mind, but...

One problem I've got now is that the two ends going in to the elbow
have solder on them. I've sanded them until smooth (they are still
solder color, but smooth, is that okay?) and used a new elbow, and did
that a couple times last night, but still no go. Is it okay to sand
off the old solder and keep trying this way, or do I really need to
start with all new pipe? It is easy to keep using new elbows, I've
got plenty to spare... but I can't really cut back the pipe, not
without adding yet another fitting (another coupler) which just seems
like even more work, and eventually I'll have it cut back to the slab
and not be able to continue.

The elbow fits well, nice and tight, just like all the others I did,
so I have no idea why this one connection is giving me so much
trouble. I did only do one other elbow though, so maybe I just got
lucky on that elbow. Is there anything special you need to do when
doing elbows? I've tried doing one end at a time, and also tried
heating in the middle of the elbow and running the solder around both
ends, one right after the other (while still hot, so they both cool/
harden at the same time).

I've read a lot about soldering... but, how long do you need to wait
before testing? The pipe seems to cool pretty fast, so I've been
testing within 2 to 5 minutes, is that not long enough? I kind of
wish I could find an elbow with about 6" of pipe on each end, so I
wouldn't have to worry about messing up one end while working on the
other.


Gee it sounds like what you are doing is right, and the responses have
been good. One more dumb question: while you are soldering, one end
of the pipe is open to the air, right? (So pressure doesn't build up
inside) -- H

  #10  
Old October 23rd 07, 06:26 PM posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10
Default Having trouble soldering copper pipe

On Oct 23, 10:06 am, professorpaul wrote:
As to "good" joints (lot of experience soldering all sorts of stuff
here), I can tell a good joint generally just by inspection. This
applies to electronics as well as pipe, etc.


You should see a meniscus of solder evenly flowing between the two
items. There should be no "bare" spots, or clear inclusions of crud,
excess solder, blogs, etc. Look at the joint with a magnifying glass,
if possible. If the joint is in a hard to get at location, then
observing the back side can often be done with a good flashlight and
inspection mirror.


O-boy, I may redo a couple of my other fittings after doing this. At
least the first two couplings I did, which are now closed off already,
looked really good. They didn't even leak the first time, but I redid
them anyway because I wasn't happy with the way they looked, and I
didn't want to open the wall again after I closed that part.

I really like rosin core solder, even for plumbing. The new lead free
solders work at a slightly higher temperature, and in my experience
are harder to get good joints with, especially if you have grown up on
lead bearing solders. I am reluctant to use acid core solder, as the
residue is hydroscopic, and corrosive, and will come back to haunt you
later.


I think I started with an acid core solder, and those first two
couplings were that kind (they are already closed off, so I sure hope
I don't have problems with them). I got the one marked "premium" the
2nd time (I used a whole pound of solder doing the first two
couplings, until I learned how it should really be done, then only
needed the last few inches to do the job right). This "premium" says
something like "solid wire", don't have it in front of me, but I do
recall it didn't say "acid core" like the 1st one I had.

Also, I find it useful to "pre fabricate" as much stuff on the bench,
then finish up with maybe two joints to be soldered in the final work.


Yes, I started doing this after a while, and it is a great idea.
Another plus is that I don't have as many burn marks on the sheetrock
and studs =] Just kiddin, I'm being safe.

Also, in working with OLD plumbing, you have to deal with corrosion.
Sometimes I've used compression fittings instead of soldering. Of
course, use TWO wrenches to tighten them up so as not to twist the
pipe.


I was thinking about trying something else (I read about "Sharkbites"
as well), but I think if I get to that point, I'll just call a
professional instead. I'm putting $500 worth of tile over this job,
and don't want to tear it out.

 




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