[J[_2_]]

I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

"J" wrote in message
...
I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but
a recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the
middle of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well
would laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that
matter)? With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is
also in the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor
covering?

Thanks.

Most likely, your laminate would be trashed. Ceramic tile, sheet goods
would have fared better. If the flood was bad enough, anything may have
been damaged as water got under seams.

[Malcolm Hoar]

In article 0k6Ui.7851$BX2.3943@trndny09, "Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

Most likely, your laminate would be trashed. Ceramic tile, sheet goods
would have fared better. If the flood was bad enough, anything may have
been damaged as water got under seams.

There are one or two laminate floors that use a synthetic
(non-wood based) substrate. They're expensive and choice
is limited but they are waterproof and would work in a
kitchen.

In my experience, spills and even floods are inevitable
in the kitchen. It's only a matter of when, not if!

And when it happens, you'll have a few minutes to mop
it all up before your regular laminate floor is damaged,
if not destroyed.

I would choose a good floor tile every time but vinyl
also works pretty well. Vinyl feels warmer and dropped
items have a slightly soft landing. It's durable,
waterproof and cheap too. Of course, many folks hate
vinyl and if you're one of those you can just pass
by that option.



--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[DerbyDad03]

On 25 Oct, 15:38, "J" wrote:
I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

The first question I'd ask myself is this one:

"What are the odds that my kitchen is going to be flooded again? Take
the number of catastrophic water heater leaks in a given year and
divide it by the number of installed water heaters. I'm guessing the
number is miniscule. Now, considering the fact that you've already
been a victim, what are the odds that you are going to be a victim
again? Some will say that the odds are the same as anybody else's
since the failure rate is based on the water heater, not on the
person, but I'd be willing to bet that you've seen the catastrophic
water heater leak you're going to see in your lifetime.

Then I'd ask myself:

Do I want to limit my choices of flooring based on the extremely
remote chance that my water heater is going to ruin it? Do I want to
live in fear or am I willing to take the risk to enjoy my home as much
as possible. If you choose to not to live with the risk, then you
should take steps to protect everything else in the house that could
be damaged by the leak.

Next: Will my homeowner's insurance cover the damage? If so, why worry
about it?

And finally...

What can I do to protect my home from a leaky water heater? Can I put
a tray under it with a drain? Can I redirect the water from a
(reasonable) leak so that it doesn't damage my floor? Can I relocate
the device so as to eliminate the risk altogether? How can I limit the
risk so I can live in a house that is finsihed in a manner that I find
enjoyable?

[Malcolm Hoar]

In article . com, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 25 Oct, 15:38, "J" wrote:
I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

The first question I'd ask myself is this one:

"What are the odds that my kitchen is going to be flooded again? Take
the number of catastrophic water heater leaks in a given year and
divide it by the number of installed water heaters.

And dishwashers, faucets and associated water pipes, icemaker
lines and the list goes on. Kitchens suffer plenty of spills
and floods, some minor and some major. I would never install
flooring that wasn't waterproof in a kitchen, bathroom or
laundry room. Floods happen!

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[[email protected]]

On Thu, 25 Oct 2007 15:38:54 -0400, "J" wrote:

I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

You'll have more than water concerns with laminate. Kitchen
chairs,tables and appliances can easily scratch wood flooring.

[[email protected]]

On Oct 25, 4:00 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:
On 25 Oct, 15:38, "J" wrote:

I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

The first question I'd ask myself is this one:

"What are the odds that my kitchen is going to be flooded again? Take
the number of catastrophic water heater leaks in a given year and
divide it by the number of installed water heaters. I'm guessing the
number is miniscule. Now, considering the fact that you've already
been a victim, what are the odds that you are going to be a victim
again?

According to basic probability analysis, the odds are exactly the same
as they were before the first flood. Unless you factor in that the WH
leak was caused by the WH failing and now they have a new one. So,
the odds of another failure are lower for a few years from the water
heater itself failing again, but by the time the new heater is the age
of the one that just went bad, the odds are back to exactly the same.
For example, if the probablility of you getting struck by lightning is
1 in 100,000, and you get hit and survive, the probability of you
getting hit again is exactly the same, 1 in 100,000. Many people
have the misconception that the odds change, but they do not.




Some will say that the odds are the same as anybody else's
since the failure rate is based on the water heater, not on the
person, but I'd be willing to bet that you've seen the catastrophic
water heater leak you're going to see in your lifetime.


So, what are you saying? That the failure rate is based on some given
number of events per person over their lifetime instead of physical
events?






Then I'd ask myself:

Do I want to limit my choices of flooring based on the extremely
remote chance that my water heater is going to ruin it? Do I want to
live in fear or am I willing to take the risk to enjoy my home as much
as possible. If you choose to not to live with the risk, then you
should take steps to protect everything else in the house that could
be damaged by the leak.

Next: Will my homeowner's insurance cover the damage? If so, why worry
about it?

And finally...

What can I do to protect my home from a leaky water heater? Can I put
a tray under it with a drain? Can I redirect the water from a
(reasonable) leak so that it doesn't damage my floor? Can I relocate
the device so as to eliminate the risk altogether? How can I limit the
risk so I can live in a house that is finsihed in a manner that I find
enjoyable?


Yes, any water heater that is located where leakage will result in
damage should have a pan with a drain routed to take any water to a
safe dumping point. And a $10 water alarm, which you can set in the
pan or on the floor.

[G Wood]

"J" wrote in message
...
I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but
a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the
middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that
matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor
covering?

Thanks.

Vinyl would withstand minor flooding as well as the subfloor prep and
adhesive. Hardwoods would dlikely not fare so well. Tile is close to
vinyl - enough standing water to affect the subfloor may damage tile mounted
to it.

Perhaps an alternate consideration might be a liner for the closet
containing the water heater? If you feared a leak there, a structure
similar to the base of a walk-in shower might be an answer at a fraction of
the price. Ideally it would have a drain and connect to the grey water
system. Even without a drain, it might buy you time in the event of a slow
leak so that water is contained and you have time to deal with it.
Improvise with a wash tub or visit the local recycling store.

[DerbyDad03]

On Oct 25, 5:58 pm, wrote:
On Oct 25, 4:00 pm, DerbyDad03 wrote:





On 25 Oct, 15:38, "J" wrote:

I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

The first question I'd ask myself is this one:

"What are the odds that my kitchen is going to be flooded again? Take
the number of catastrophic water heater leaks in a given year and
divide it by the number of installed water heaters. I'm guessing the
number is miniscule. Now, considering the fact that you've already
been a victim, what are the odds that you are going to be a victim
again?

According to basic probability analysis, the odds are exactly the same
as they were before the first flood. Unless you factor in that the WH
leak was caused by the WH failing and now they have a new one. So,
the odds of another failure are lower for a few years from the water
heater itself failing again, but by the time the new heater is the age
of the one that just went bad, the odds are back to exactly the same.
For example, if the probablility of you getting struck by lightning is
1 in 100,000, and you get hit and survive, the probability of you
getting hit again is exactly the same, 1 in 100,000. Many people
have the misconception that the odds change, but they do not.

Some will say that the odds are the same as anybody else's

since the failure rate is based on the water heater, not on the
person, but I'd be willing to bet that you've seen the catastrophic
water heater leak you're going to see in your lifetime.

-- So, what are you saying? That the failure rate is based on some
given number of events per person over their lifetime instead of
physical events?

No, I'm saying exactly what you are saying. I fact, I already said it:
"the failure rate is based on the water heater, not on the person".
But I'd still be willing to bet that the OP has seen the last
catastrophic water heater leak he's going to see in his lifetime. It's
a bet - I'm willing to bet that based on the failure rate of water
heaters, which will play out as they are supposed, that he won't be
impacted again. I'm betting that there are enough other water heater
owners out there that the risk is spread out pretty thinly. Again -
it's a bet. Of course, it's a bet the OP has to be willing to take,
since I don't really have a stake in his kitchen floor. :-)


Then I'd ask myself:

Do I want to limit my choices of flooring based on the extremely
remote chance that my water heater is going to ruin it? Do I want to
live in fear or am I willing to take the risk to enjoy my home as much
as possible. If you choose to not to live with the risk, then you
should take steps to protect everything else in the house that could
be damaged by the leak.

Next: Will my homeowner's insurance cover the damage? If so, why worry
about it?

And finally...

What can I do to protect my home from a leaky water heater? Can I put
a tray under it with a drain? Can I redirect the water from a
(reasonable) leak so that it doesn't damage my floor? Can I relocate
the device so as to eliminate the risk altogether? How can I limit the
risk so I can live in a house that is finsihed in a manner that I find
enjoyable?

Yes, any water heater that is located where leakage will result in
damage should have a pan with a drain routed to take any water to a
safe dumping point. And a $10 water alarm, which you can set in the
pan or on the floor.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

[DerbyDad03]

On Oct 25, 7:41 pm, h wrote:
Yes, any water heater that is located where leakage will result in
damage should have a pan with a drain routed to take any water to a
safe dumping point. And a $10 water alarm, which you can set in the
pan or on the floor.-

Ok, what am I missing? How can a water heater flood the kitchen when the
water heater is in the basement and the kitchen is one floor up? How many
people don't have full basements? Is it really a house if there isn't a full
basement? Certainly not in upstate NY. I don't even think it's legal to not
have a basement here.

-- Ok, what am I missing?

Perhaps you missed this line in the OP: "Our water heater resides in a
closet that is part of the kitchen".

That said, how do you know the kitchen isn't the basement?

[Norminn]

h wrote:
Yes, any water heater that is located where leakage will result in
damage should have a pan with a drain routed to take any water to a
safe dumping point. And a $10 water alarm, which you can set in the
pan or on the floor.-


Ok, what am I missing? How can a water heater flood the kitchen when the
water heater is in the basement and the kitchen is one floor up? How many
people don't have full basements? Is it really a house if there isn't a full
basement? Certainly not in upstate NY. I don't even think it's legal to not
have a basement here.


My water heater, in my FL condo, is inside the kitchen, inside the
kitchen corner cabinet. Access panel is in a separate utility closet
outside our unit where main breakers, meters and phone panel are.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

h wrote in message

Ok, what am I missing? How can a water heater flood the kitchen when the
water heater is in the basement and the kitchen is one floor up? How many
people don't have full basements? Is it really a house if there isn't a
full basement? Certainly not in upstate NY. I don't even think it's legal
to not have a basement here.

What are you missing? An incredible amount of geography and housing
information. There are hundreds of thousands, probably millions of homes
that have no basement. Pretty much every house in Florida, for instance.
Thousands of homes in Nevada, CA, New Mexico.

Ask how many people have water heaters in their garage too.

[aemeijers]

h wrote:
Yes, any water heater that is located where leakage will result in
damage should have a pan with a drain routed to take any water to a
safe dumping point. And a $10 water alarm, which you can set in the
pan or on the floor.-

Ok, what am I missing? How can a water heater flood the kitchen when the
water heater is in the basement and the kitchen is one floor up? How many
people don't have full basements? Is it really a house if there isn't a full
basement? Certainly not in upstate NY. I don't even think it's legal to not
have a basement here.


Are you really this clueless, or just trying out new fishing gear? Not
everyone can afford modern houses on proper basements, and in many
areas,the water table makes basements impractical. There is no way they
can require a basement, but common sense and local soil conditions may
make that the most common practice around there. Here in midwest, some
fancy-looking subdivisions are actually all above crawlspaces, not
because of water table, but to keep the price low- you can't see the
basement from the curb. (They also only put brick on the outside walls
visible from street...) Lots and lots of cheap slab houses, older houses
on piers or crawlspaces, modern prefab modular houses on crawlspaces,
etc, many with the furnace/utility closet and laundry room right off the
kitchen. Cheap house, you try to minimize the number of 'wet walls' and
pipe runs, and make them as short as possible. I've seen double-wide
modulars where ALL the plumbing was in one half, so they wouldn't have
to pay for hooking up stubs to other half. Not even an outside hose bib
on that side- they were on the ends.


aem sends...

[[email protected]]

On Oct 25, 6:22 pm, "G Wood" wrote:
"J" wrote in message

... I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but
a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the
middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that
matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor
covering?

Thanks.

Vinyl would withstand minor flooding as well as the subfloor prep and
adhesive. Hardwoods would dlikely not fare so well. Tile is close to
vinyl - enough standing water to affect the subfloor may damage tile mounted
to it.

Perhaps an alternate consideration might be a liner for the closet
containing the water heater? If you feared a leak there, a structure
similar to the base of a walk-in shower might be an answer at a fraction of
the price. Ideally it would have a drain and connect to the grey water
system. Even without a drain, it might buy you time in the event of a slow
leak so that water is contained and you have time to deal with it.
Improvise with a wash tub or visit the local recycling store.

They have those at the local home center and they are called pans that
go under water heaters. They have an outlet that you can then plumb
to a safe discharge location. Any WH where leakage could cause
damage should have one and an alarm as well.

Of course, that just eliminates one problem, though a major one, from
a wood floor in a kitchen. There is still the dishwasher, sink, frig
water line, etc that can leak. But usually those are less serious
than a WH.

[DerbyDad03]

On 25 Oct, 15:38, "J" wrote:
I had been leaning toward installing laminate flooring in our kitchen, but a
recent incident tells me that this might not be a good choice: Our water
heater resides in a closet that is part of the kitchen and during the middle
of the night, a leak sprung up that flooded the kitchen. How well would
laminate flooring recover from being flooded (or hardwood for that matter)?
With the water heater basically in the same room and our washer is also in
the kitchen, would it be more prudent to choose a different floor covering?

Thanks.

Coincedentally, I was watching Ask This Old House last night and Rich
showcased various "leak protection devices" for water heaters,
dishwashers, sinks and laundries.

They ranged from the simple alarms that go off if the floor gets wet
to some sophistcated devices that monitor the flow.

One device uses a floor sensor, say in a pan under the HWH, wired to
the cold inlet to shut off the water if the floor gets wet. Granted,
you'd still have the water from the HWH to deal with, but it would
limit the damage somewhat. If you can't get a pan under the HWH, they
showed a rubber hose that can be used a dam to contain enough water to
set of the device. This device could also be plumbed into a
dishwasher or laundry system.

Another very simple device was a braided hose with a mechanical valve
in one end that slammed shut if the hose burst. He cut the hose with a
bolt cutter and other than a quick spray of water, the hose did not
leak. Great for dishwashers, sinks and laundries.

Another device was for the laundry which included the water valves and
a power outlet. Supposedly, as long as the washer was not drawing any
current, the valves would stay shut so if a hose burst, the leak would
be limited to the water in the hose. The assumption was also that you
are always home when you do the laundry, so you'd know about a burst
hose if the device was drawing current. I'm not sure about that one.
My washer has an electronic display and although I've never tested it,
I'm assuming it is drawing some current at all times. As soon as you
touch any button or turn the knob, the display lights up, plus it
remembers the options you chose the last time you used a given cycle,
so I'm guessing it is "always on". That and the time delay means I
don't have to be home to do laundry.