I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at vineyards.
However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project could be a
total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my neighbor's
car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot posts, should
3 feet under the ground be sufficient?

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project
could be a total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my
neighbor's car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot
posts, should 3 feet under the ground be sufficient?


What state do you live in? In southeast Michigan, we have to go 40" deep to
avoid frost heave.

"Frank from Deeetroit" wrote in message
. ..

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project
could be a total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my
neighbor's car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot
posts, should 3 feet under the ground be sufficient?


What state do you live in? In southeast Michigan, we have to go 40" deep
to avoid frost heave.


Upstate NY. I guess there's my answer. :-)

10% + 2' is the formula typically used for earth supported posts
from power poles to fence posts. I cannot see any reason to
worry about frost depth for a fence or a grape vine.

Ran many miles of high power line in western Nebraska on 120'
poles. 14' setting depth.



--
______________________________
Keep the whole world singing . . . .
DanG (remove the sevens)




"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines.
There'll be some sort of wire stretched horizontally between the
posts, as done at vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour
cement. Reason: This project could be a total failure if the deer
decide grape vines=salad. They ate my neighbor's car last week,
so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot posts, should 3
feet under the ground be sufficient?

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at vineyards.
However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project could be a
total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my neighbor's
car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot posts, should
3 feet under the ground be sufficient?



I replaced some fence posts last fall. Pacific NW area, lots of rain,
relatively little freezing here on the vallry floor. Mountais are different.
They were 4" x 4" PT in concrete, about 20 - 25 years in the
ground, rotted through in the 2 - 4 inches immediately above the concrete.
Getting the concrete outwas a pain.

Had the use of a neighbor's clamshell / post hole digger. Dug the
hole 3 feet deep. Put in 1 foot of crushed gravel, tamped and packed.
Placed post 2 feet into hole, tamped and packed gravel into hole up
to surface. Have 6 feet of post above ground. Looks good and
is very sturdy. From what i've seen around here, concrete
and 4" x 4" wood posts just don't work well together.

YMMV.

"JoeSpareBedroom" wrote in message
...
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project
could be a total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my
neighbor's car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot
posts, should 3 feet under the ground be sufficient?


Go 36". Tamp the dirt around the pole good and tight. It'll be fine.

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at vineyards.
However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project could be a
total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my neighbor's
car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot posts, should
3 feet under the ground be sufficient?

The deer ate the car? :-)

Vinyards often have a diagonal wire to a post in the ground at each end
of a line of posts, which keeps the posts tight in the line. You might add
more wires at right angles to make a wire grid that keeps the posts from
wiggling from side to side in the line, without any digging at all, using
high-tensile wire with circular racheting fence tighteners.

Nick

wrote in message
...
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be some
sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards.
However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project could be a
total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate my neighbor's
car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8 foot posts,
should
3 feet under the ground be sufficient?

The deer ate the car? :-)

These deer are outrageous. They apparently got their hands on a list of
"deer resistant plants" (bull****), and decided to turn it upside down.



Vinyards often have a diagonal wire to a post in the ground at each end
of a line of posts, which keeps the posts tight in the line. You might add
more wires at right angles to make a wire grid that keeps the posts from
wiggling from side to side in the line, without any digging at all, using
high-tensile wire with circular racheting fence tighteners.

Nick


Yeah...I thought I might have to use at least one support wire at each post.
Maybe more. Then, I'll need a string trimmer. I had this dumb idea that I
could construct the whole affair in such a way that I could mow really close
and not have to buy another tool....

....never mind.

"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..
JoeSpareBedroom wrote:
I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be
some sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project
could be a total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate
my neighbor's car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8
foot posts, should 3 feet under the ground be sufficient?

I replaced some fence posts last fall. Pacific NW area, lots of rain,
relatively little freezing here on the vallry floor. Mountais are
different.
They were 4" x 4" PT in concrete, about 20 - 25 years in the
ground, rotted through in the 2 - 4 inches immediately above the concrete.
Getting the concrete outwas a pain.

Had the use of a neighbor's clamshell / post hole digger. Dug the
hole 3 feet deep. Put in 1 foot of crushed gravel, tamped and packed.
Placed post 2 feet into hole, tamped and packed gravel into hole up
to surface. Have 6 feet of post above ground. Looks good and
is very sturdy. From what i've seen around here, concrete
and 4" x 4" wood posts just don't work well together.

Were the bottoms of the rotted out posts completely surrounded by concrete?
I have found that is the usual culprit for rotted bases- the bottom of post
never drains, since it is sitting in a pocket. I've had good luck using
gravel in hole like you describe, but with the top six inches or foot in
concrete, to stiffen things up. (wood or metal clothesline poles.)

aem sends...

aemeijers wrote:
"jJim McLaughlin" wrote in message
. ..

JoeSpareBedroom wrote:

I need to install three 4x4 posts to support grape vines. There'll be
some sort of wire stretched horizontally between the posts, as done at
vineyards. However, I'd prefer NOT to pour cement. Reason: This project
could be a total failure if the deer decide grape vines=salad. They ate
my neighbor's car last week, so anything's possible. So, if I'm using 8
foot posts, should 3 feet under the ground be sufficient?

I replaced some fence posts last fall. Pacific NW area, lots of rain,
relatively little freezing here on the vallry floor. Mountais are
different.
They were 4" x 4" PT in concrete, about 20 - 25 years in the
ground, rotted through in the 2 - 4 inches immediately above the concrete.
Getting the concrete outwas a pain.

Had the use of a neighbor's clamshell / post hole digger. Dug the
hole 3 feet deep. Put in 1 foot of crushed gravel, tamped and packed.
Placed post 2 feet into hole, tamped and packed gravel into hole up
to surface. Have 6 feet of post above ground. Looks good and
is very sturdy. From what i've seen around here, concrete
and 4" x 4" wood posts just don't work well together.


Were the bottoms of the rotted out posts completely surrounded by concrete?
I have found that is the usual culprit for rotted bases- the bottom of post
never drains, since it is sitting in a pocket. I've had good luck using
gravel in hole like you describe, but with the top six inches or foot in
concrete, to stiffen things up. (wood or metal clothesline poles.)

aem sends...



Old posts were set two feet into ground, bases resting on bare dirt (well,
mostly clay, wet soggy clay, but you get the picture.) About 1 foot of
concrete.
Old posts below the bottom of the concrete "plug" were deteriorated, but
not rotted out. It was the two inches to four inches of old post above the
"plug", plus about 3 - 4 inches of old post that were right inside the
"top" of the
concrete "plug" that rotted out. I hope I'm explaining that in a coherent
way. g.

I think the "plug" had a small space between its inner surface and the outer
surface of the post, as the wood dried and shrank. I expect that water
flowed
into that gap over the years and just sat there, puddled, and rotted the
wood.