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[email protected] April 24th 07 09:41 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
LM wrote:

This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


All patents are probably novel, as in original, new and unique, but to
claim that they are always useful (or sane) is a stretch...


That's the law. The US patent office interprets "useful" in two ways:
1.) you have to convince an examiner the invention will actually work,
as described (they are very skeptical of perpetual motion machines :-),
and 2.) it can't be a weapon of mass destruction, eg an H-bomb.

They don't care if the invention is uneconomical or impractical or ugly,
and so on. Some people get rich by filing such "submarine" patents well
before technology makes them practical. A patent claiming techniques for
for a vacuum-tube cellphone the size of a tractor-trailer might have been
a gold mine if it didn't expire before ICs were invented.

Nick


Neon John April 24th 07 10:58 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 24 Apr 2007 15:48:24 -0400, wrote:

Neon John wrote:

By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


... if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to sell you...


I do, as a registered US patent agent, having passed the same federal
bar exam that attorneys take.


So are you part of the problem?

How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.

Of course it does, precisely.


Really?


Yes...


Should I take your snipping the rest of my post as an indication that
you aren't interested in actually field testing the gadget you
promote? With my proposal I don't see that you have anything at all
to lose. Except maybe some face if it doesn't work.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 25th 07 09:42 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Pawlowski wrote:

How about a Crawlspace Smart Vent?

http://www.smartvent.net

They cost $365, but they only use 40 watts when moving 290 cfm of air
out of a basement when the absolute moisture content of basement air
is greater than the absolute moisture content of outdoor air.


The technical description on the crawlspace web page says they evacuate
crawlspace air when its RH is more than 35% and the absolute moisture
content of the outdoor air is lower than that of the crawlspace air.
They also evacuate crawlspace air when the crawlspace RH is less than
25% and outdoor air has 20% more absolute moisture. They say adding
humidity to a crawlspace is sometimes useful to keep it from drying out
to the point that hardwood floors buckle.

Does that mean when the absolute moisture content is the same (high or low)
it does noething?


Yes. This might work well in a climate with some humidity variability
and with a fairly airtight crawlspace and some building materials that
can store moisture. It would work better in Chattanooga (wmin = 0.0036
in January) than Key West (wmin = 0.0100 in January.)

Seems like it would have limited value in a naturally humid region
whee you want to make it lower.


Yes. It only works on dryish days. There's a nice graph of crawlspace
humidity over time on the web site.

Nick


[email protected] April 25th 07 10:21 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.

... if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN...


I do, as a registered US patent agent, having passed the same federal
bar exam that attorneys take.


So are you part of the problem?


I never let myself get mad. I want peace. I tried to pinch his nostrils
so he'd let go of my arm to breathe, but he shook his head, pulling me
deeper into the cage.

I think it was then that he took out the first piece of my arm and
swallowed it without breathing, because a terror of movement settled
in me at that moment and lasted for months. He moved up the arm, and
all the time those black, blank eyes evaluated me, like a shark's, calm
and almost friendly. By this time, my right arm was a mangled mess of flesh,
pushed-out gobs of fat, and flashes of bone two inches long, but my slow
TV mind, watching, saw it as whole, just trapped in the hyena's mouth,
in a tug-of-war like the one I used to play with my dogs--only it was
my arm now instead of a sock. It didn't hurt. It never did.

The hyena looked up at me with those indescribable eyes and surged back
again, nearly pulling me onto his face. I remembered self-defense class and
the first lesson: "Poke the cockroach in the eyes." All the women had
squealed, except me. "Ooooh, I could never do that." Ha, I'd thought, anyone
who wants to kill me has no right to live. I'd poke him in the eyes...

I looked at those eyes with my fingers poised to jab. It was for my family
and my friends that I stuck my fingers in his eyes. I just wanted to stop
watching myself get eaten, either be dead and at peace or be gone, but
other lives were connected to mine. I'm not sure if I did more than touch
them gently before he let go and whipped past me to cower against the door
to the outside, the Negev desert.

Events like this teach you yourself. We all think we know what we would do,
hero or coward, strong or weak. I expected strength, and the memory of my
tin-whistle scream curdles my blood, but I am proud of the stupid thing
I did next. He cowered and whimpered and essentially apologized, still with
those blank unmoving eyes, and I stood still for a second. My arm felt
light and shrunken, as if half of it were gone, but I didn't look. From the
corridor, I had a choice of two doors: the one through which I'd entered,
leading back to the desert, and the one opening into the corral. I didn't
think I could bend over him and unlatch the door to the desert. He'd just
reach up and clamp onto my stomach. And I didn't want to open the door to
the corral, or he'd drag me in and be able to attack the men if they ever
came to help me. My body, still in control, made the good hand grab the
bad elbow, and I beat him with my own arm, as if I had ripped it free
to use as a club. "No!" I shouted. "No, no!" Lo lo lo, in Hebrew. I might
even have said "Bad boy," but I hope not. It was the beating that damaged
my hand permanently. I must have hit him hard enough to crush a ligament,
because there is a lump on my hand to this day, five years later, but he
didn't even blink. He came around behind me and grabbed my right leg, and
again there was no pain--just the feeling that he and I were playing
tug-of-war with my body--but I was afraid to pull too hard on the leg.
He pulled the leg up, stretching me out in a line from the door, where
I clung with the good hand to the mesh, like a dancer at the barre. It
felt almost good, as if the whole thing were nearer to being over. In
three moves I didn't feel, he took out most of the calf...

From Personal History: Hyena
by Joanna Greenfield,
in The New Yorker, Nov. 11, 1996

How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


You might enjoy paying me to analyze them in excruciating detail :-)

None of this addresses a moisture problem in a basement, of course.

Of course it does, precisely.

Really?


Yes...


Should I take your snipping the rest of my post as an indication that
you aren't interested in actually field testing the gadget you promote?
With my proposal I don't see that you have anything at all to lose.
Except maybe some face if it doesn't work.


Let's see... You wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of
those fans and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging
equipment and we'll see what it does in this environment. I have
several HOBOs including the temperature and RH one. I'll buy the duty
cycle one to log the fan run time. I'll log the power consumption
with the same meter I used to log my dehumidifier so there won't be
any calibration questions. If it works then I'll either buy it from
you or return it, your choice. If it doesn't, I return it to you.

"Working" is defined as 50% or lower RH in that space at all times
without raising the temperature above 70, conditions suitable for
valuable book storage...

You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)

FWIW, it seems to me this might work well for you, with enough books
and concrete and wood to absorb moisture in an airtight basement
with a vapor barrier and no water leaks from the outdoors.

The average yearly temp in Chattanooga is 59.3 F, and 70 F air at 50% RH
has w = 0.0079. The average outdoor humidity ratio is less than that from
October through April. You could store lots of dryness in January, with
a 37.4 F average outdoor temp and w = 0.0036. You are a bright boy. Look
up the sorption isotherms for your materials and do your own estimates
or simulations, s'il te plait. I gave you the concrete information.

Nick


Derek Broughton April 25th 07 03:06 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

On 24 Apr 2007 06:41:25 -0400, wrote:



Another worthless rubber-stamp patent issued in spite of vast amount
of prior art. Disgusting.


This technique was quite useful in New Orleans after Katrina.
By law (US Code 102/103), the patent would not have been
issued if it were not novel.


And if you believe that, I have some nice oceanfront land in TN to
sell you. Do you think that the patent for the common tree swing was
novel?


I have to agree with you here. I have it from a (purported) relative of the
patent holder for that, that he took out the patent specifically to prove
how easy it is to get a patent that is _not_ novel. The US Patent Office
has a history of issuing patents for practically anything and then letting
the courts sort it out (see Michael Crichton's latest novel "Next" for the
logical conclusions of that).

How about the "cat exerciser", chasing a cat around with a
laser pointer? Reckon there was any prior art?


That actually sounds semi-reasonable (at least in a legal sense). The laser
pointer was not previously patented as an exerciser of any sort. Clearly
there's a novel application. So _somebody_ is entitled to patent it, but
it would be hard to prove that the patent holder was the one who actually
invented it's use for exercising (and blinding...) cats.
--
derek

Neon John April 25th 07 08:17 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On 25 Apr 2007 05:21:32 -0400, wrote:


How 'bout the rest of my comments? Can you claim that any of those
patents are based on anything novel or unobvious? I mean, c'mon, a
TREE SWING?


You might enjoy paying me to analyze them in excruciating detail :-)


Nah, don't think so. Even l'il ole me can tell that chasing a cat
around with a laser pointer is neither novel, non-obvious nor lacking
in prior art. Same with two ropes tossed over a tree limb and
connected to a plank, what that tree swing patent consists of.


Let's see... You wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of
those fans and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging
equipment and we'll see what it does in this environment. I have
several HOBOs including the temperature and RH one. I'll buy the duty
cycle one to log the fan run time. I'll log the power consumption
with the same meter I used to log my dehumidifier so there won't be
any calibration questions. If it works then I'll either buy it from
you or return it, your choice. If it doesn't, I return it to you.

"Working" is defined as 50% or lower RH in that space at all times
without raising the temperature above 70, conditions suitable for
valuable book storage...

You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)


Oh, you have a lot to gain. You'd have confirmed data that the thing
either works or doesn't in a humid climate like mine. At worst you'd
end up with one of those units. At best you'd have confirmation data
and zero dollars out of pocket. As an advocate of that product,
surely you could get them to contribute a unit to the test.

Heck, I'll even submit a test plan in advance for your approval. Even
though I have my preconceived notions about the efficacy of this
gadget I AM interested in test results. My notions are wrong on very
rare occasions, after all. And as always, I publish all raw data and
my calculations. You can critique my analysis and/or do something
different with the raw data.


FWIW, it seems to me this might work well for you, with enough books
and concrete and wood to absorb moisture in an airtight basement
with a vapor barrier and no water leaks from the outdoors.

The average yearly temp in Chattanooga is 59.3 F, and 70 F air at 50% RH
has w = 0.0079. The average outdoor humidity ratio is less than that from
October through April. You could store lots of dryness in January, with
a 37.4 F average outdoor temp and w = 0.0036. You are a bright boy. Look
up the sorption isotherms for your materials and do your own estimates
or simulations, s'il te plait. I gave you the concrete information.


Except that I live 100 miles away in the mountains above Tellico
Plains. At 2500 feet in what amounts to an eastern jungle. I never
appreciated what a jungle environment is like until I moved here. I
stored my car and motorhome up here while I was on the road for about
a year. When I came back the steering wheels were twice the normal
diameters, encrusted with green mold. The pillows and bedlinens in
the MH were green with mold. Even fingerprints were outlined in green
mold! yeah, I know, my signature says Cleveland but that's just where
my mail goes. We don't have mail service up here.

I had the power and thus the AC off for that period. The inside of
the cabin was green too. What a clean-up job!

My basement had always been saturated with humidity and moldy but I
didn't fully appreciate the conditions until I parked my vehicles
here.

I'm open to letting the data regarding that fan gadget prove me wrong
but I seriously doubt it will happen.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

Neon John April 25th 07 08:27 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On Wed, 25 Apr 2007 11:06:32 -0300, Derek Broughton
wrote:

Neon John wrote:


How about the "cat exerciser", chasing a cat around with a
laser pointer? Reckon there was any prior art?


That actually sounds semi-reasonable (at least in a legal sense). The laser
pointer was not previously patented as an exerciser of any sort. Clearly
there's a novel application. So _somebody_ is entitled to patent it, but
it would be hard to prove that the patent holder was the one who actually
invented it's use for exercising (and blinding...) cats.


It's certainly novel but it fails the non-obviousness test and the
prior art test. Anyone who's played with light spots around animals
knows that they'll chase the spot. IT doesn't have to be a laser. My
cat and mom's dog will chase a flashlight spot.

In terms of prior art, a search of Usenet archives going far back
before the patent was applied for will show discussions of chasing
animals around with light spots. I know that I commented about how
much fun it was to chase my cat around with a HeNe laser long before
diode lasers hit the consumer market. Even before that there were
talks about using flashlight beams.

Worse for this particular patent, as noted on the freepatentsonline
crazy page, multiple prior patents had already been issued for the
same thing. Just another application rubber-stamped.

It would be interesting to do an experiment to see just how silly an
application has to get before it's rejected. I wish I had sufficient
mad money to pay the fees, I'd give it a shot.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email address
http://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill

[email protected] April 25th 07 09:15 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
Neon John wrote:

Let's do a test, sort of a worst-case one. Obtain one of those fans
and send it to me. I'll install it along with data logging equipment
and we'll see what it does in this environment...


You game?


I don't think so. Putting aside your hyenalike behavior, it looks
like this requires time and money on my part, with nothing to gain.
Care to sweeten the pot? :-)


... As an advocate of that product, surely you could get them to
contribute a unit to the test.


I have no financial interest in this product.

You might enjoy talking with them yourself.

Nick


[email protected] April 26th 07 09:31 AM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
The Florida Solar Energy Center's first experimental report on two 10'x16'
test structures, comparing conventional AC to the NightCool System is at:

http://www.fsec.ucf.edu/en/publicati...CR-1692-07.pdf

There's also a writeup of the system at

http://BuildItSolar.com.

Up to date daily data from the system is at:

http://infomonitors.com/ntc/

They will continue to evaluate it for the remainder of the year and add
a dehumidification element to the system this summer using the intrinsic
moisture capacitance of wood in the attic to dry out the building, which
promises to reach dehumidification COPs of ~ 10--unheard of with
conventional vapor compression equipment.

They may integrate PV to end up with an integrated solar
electric and building cooling system all rolled into one.

Nick


[email protected] April 26th 07 03:14 PM

Frugal Dehumidifier - any good models widely available?
 
On Apr 25, 2:27 pm, Neon John wrote:
It would be interesting to do an experiment to see just how silly an
application has to get before it's rejected. I wish I had sufficient
mad money to pay the fees, I'd give it a shot.

John
---
John De Armond
See my website for my current email addresshttp://www.neon-john.com
Cleveland, Occupied TN
All great things are simple and many can be expressed in single words:
Freedom, Justice, Honor, Duty, Mercy, Hope. -Churchill


I don't think this one is silly but I bet these guys got a patent on
their new twin crank idea.
http://thekneeslider.com/archives/20...el-motorcycle/

Go back 210 years and you find one Reverend Edward Cartwright made
this little drawing.
http://books.google.com/books?id=p8MJAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA64

___________
Andre' B.



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