Home Repair (alt.home.repair) For all homeowners and DIYers with many experienced tradesmen. Solve your toughest home fix-it problems.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
  #1   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Ben Ben is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Split Neutral Wiring

I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.

So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?
Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?
An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?
Thanks.

  #2   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 22
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Ben" wrote in message
ups.com...
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.

So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?
Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?
An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?
Thanks.


If you share the neutrals within the circuit to a breaker, then when that
breaker is off no one is turning anything on, right? I wouldn't share
neutrals between different breakers.

Brian


  #3   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 326
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Ben" wrote in message
ups.com...
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house.


When done properly, the two breakers would be tied together, so either both
would be on or off.


  #4   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Ben" wrote in message
ups.com...
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.

So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?
Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?
An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?
Thanks.

That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless it
is unconnected at the breaker box and then you have much bigger problems.
They reduce voltage drop, save a little material, reduce congestion in the
breaker box and maybe save a little labor.
The big downside as I see it is that they can be confusing to people who
don't know what they are. My house had one with both hots on the same leg.
Didn't matter since not much was plugged into them, but it could have been a
disaster.
Also, I doubt you can use AFCI breakers, if that matters to you.

  #5   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
Ben Ben is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 8
Default Split Neutral Wiring

When done properly, the two breakers would be tied together, so either both
would be on or off.


Good point. I did read something about a double pole breaker. That IS
what I should have in my box. So either I don't have one or the
neutrals that I was disconnecting actually weren't part of my intended
circuit at all. There were a lot of wires in that box, perhaps another
group was actually the neutral for my circuit. The wiring is 50 years
old and it's hard to tell what color these wires were supposed to be!



  #6   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On 13 Apr 2007 10:31:05 -0700, "Ben" wrote:

I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.

So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?
Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?
An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?
Thanks.


I've never seen a neutral that wasn't tied together at the box and
that was then tied to the earth ground.

Me thinks your wiring is screwed up.


  #7   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
N8N N8N is offline
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,192
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Apr 13, 1:52 pm, "Wade Lippman" wrote:
"Ben" wrote in message

ups.com...



I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.


So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?
Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?
An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?
Thanks.


That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless it
is unconnected at the breaker box and then you have much bigger problems.
They reduce voltage drop, save a little material, reduce congestion in the
breaker box and maybe save a little labor.
The big downside as I see it is that they can be confusing to people who
don't know what they are. My house had one with both hots on the same leg.
Didn't matter since not much was plugged into them, but it could have been a
disaster.
Also, I doubt you can use AFCI breakers, if that matters to you.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Or GFCIs for that matter, unless you use a double pole GFCI.

nate

  #8   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,375
Default Split Neutral Wiring

In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:

That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless it
is unconnected at the breaker box


FALSE!

The neutral is a current-carrying conductor under normal operation. Contrary
to common belief, electricity does not follow "the path of least resistance."
Rather, electricity follows all possible paths, and when you touch the
neutral, you create with your body a second, parallel path to ground for the
current flowing in the neutral. Granted, that's probably (though not
necessarily) a fairly high-resistance path, which makes it *unlikely* that you
will be shocked.

But definitely *not* impossible.

Your statement is false twice, actually: suppose the neutral is connected just
fine *at* the breaker box, but is disconnected somewhere between there, and
where you're working. In that case, you're putting yourself in *series* with
the neutral current, not in parallel with it, and that makes a shock from
touching it *likely* (if the circuit is energized).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
  #9   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 856
Default Split Neutral Wiring

According to Ben :
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house. You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live.


This is more of a "independent feeds into a single box" than a shared
neutral issue per-se.

In a properly wired shared neutral circuit, getting zapped by the
neutral can't happen - the neutral cannot be more than a volt or
two away from ground.

If you disconnect the neutral, then someone fires up a lamp on the
other side, yes, you can get zapped.

But:

1) Electrical code requires that neutrals on shared neutral circuits
are pigtailed, so that it's possible to disconnect devices without
breaking the neutral to downstreams.

2) There's a very strong hint that the neutral might be shared if
you see 4 conductor wire (eg: 14/3 or 12/3 plus ground). Electrical
code (at least ours) requires that, at least until the hots go off
in different directions, that it's in a common cable. Since you
can't parallel cable in normal residential wiring (eg: rejoin neutrals
after splitting cable), at least theoretically, you'll always see /3
cable where the neutral is actually shared. Past the split point,
it don't matter.

3) Because of (2), and electrical code requirements for common trip
("same strap" _requires_ common trip in the NEC, all shared
neutrals in the CEC require common breaker trip), you'll almost
always see a single cable connected to adjacent common-trip breakers
You can't deenergize one hot without de-energizing the other.

Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?


Actually, until our (CEC) kitchen counter requirements changed a few years ago,
at least two shared neutral circuits were mandatory in every house.

An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?


I wouldn't worry about it. Most of the concerns about neutral stupidities
regarding what you've read is for industrial wiring botches, which is largely
inapplicable to housing.

The electrician probably won't be tempted to use it much anyway.

What you _should_ do is insist that the electrician use tie-barred/common
trip breakers everywhere he'd consider using common neutral (or two feeds
into the same box - even a switch box), regardless of whether the NEC requires
it for that specific instance.

The only times I've ever been zapped is where the electrician violated
the CEC rule about having non-common-trip feeds into the same box. They
weren't shared neutrals.
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.
  #10   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 856
Default Split Neutral Wiring

According to Doug Miller :
In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:


That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless it
is unconnected at the breaker box


FALSE!


The neutral is a current-carrying conductor under normal operation. Contrary
to common belief, electricity does not follow "the path of least resistance."
Rather, electricity follows all possible paths, and when you touch the
neutral, you create with your body a second, parallel path to ground for the
current flowing in the neutral. Granted, that's probably (though not
necessarily) a fairly high-resistance path, which makes it *unlikely* that you
will be shocked.


But definitely *not* impossible.


If the neutral isn't broken between you and the panel, the _maximum_
ground-neutral voltage you'll see in the OP's scenario is a volt or two.
You won't notice it anymore than you'll notice a shock from a D cell.

Your statement is false twice, actually: suppose the neutral is connected just
fine *at* the breaker box, but is disconnected somewhere between there, and
where you're working. In that case, you're putting yourself in *series* with
the neutral current, not in parallel with it, and that makes a shock from
touching it *likely* (if the circuit is energized).


If the neutral is cut between you and the panel, for all intents and purposes
it's a hot if anything is switched on with the corresponding "real" hot.

The dangers with common neutral arise when the neutral is broken without
killing both hots. That's impossible in most code-compliant situations (unless
you do your rewiring on hot circuits).

[In the CEC, it's _all_ code-compliant residential situations. The NEC has
an exception for circuits "not on the same strap"]
--
Chris Lewis,

Age and Treachery will Triumph over Youth and Skill
It's not just anyone who gets a Starship Cruiser class named after them.


  #11   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 62
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Doug Miller" wrote in message
t...
In article , "Wade Lippman"
wrote:

That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless
it
is unconnected at the breaker box


FALSE!

The neutral is a current-carrying conductor under normal operation.
Contrary
to common belief, electricity does not follow "the path of least
resistance."
Rather, electricity follows all possible paths, and when you touch the
neutral, you create with your body a second, parallel path to ground for
the
current flowing in the neutral. Granted, that's probably (though not
necessarily) a fairly high-resistance path, which makes it *unlikely* that
you
will be shocked.

But definitely *not* impossible.

Your statement is false twice, actually: suppose the neutral is connected
just
fine *at* the breaker box, but is disconnected somewhere between there,
and
where you're working. In that case, you're putting yourself in *series*
with
the neutral current, not in parallel with it, and that makes a shock from
touching it *likely* (if the circuit is energized).

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Gee Doug, with all the millions of dryers and ovens that have the chassis
attached to the neutrals and are touched daily by wet hands, how many shocks
do you think people get?
What the hell is wrong with you?

  #12   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Ben" wrote in message
ups.com...
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house.



Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel through the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.


You can test for hot wires and verify at least one
circuit is off, but then somebody comes along and turns on a light and
suddenly the neutral is live. Not to mention the fact that if somebody
came along who didn't know about split neutrals who knows what they
may have mistakenly done in the past.

So what is the best way to proceed when trying to determine if a box
has any live wires or wires which could become charged if somebody
turns on a light upstream?



Always treat the wires as though they are hot. Every once in a while I get
zapped by a neutral. Even though the ground and neutral are bonded together
at the main you don't know what the condition of the neutral going back to
the transformer is. You also don't know how good the neutral connections
are at the panel. There is always the possibility of having a difference in
potential between the ground and neutral at the load. In an old house it is
a good idea to be extra cautious as you don't know what changes have been
made over the years.



Are shared neutrals avoided where possible?



Some states are requiring arc fault circuit interupter circuit breakers for
bedroom wiring. You cannot use a shared neutral on these circuits.


An electrician is about to rewire just about my entire house. Should I
request no shared neutrals or is this a silly request?



It is not a bad idea to discusss with him what his plans are. Afterall you
are paying for it, you have a right to ask.



  #13   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 663
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:



Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel through the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.



Could you explain this a little more, really slow.
  #14   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:



Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the

neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel through

the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.



Could you explain this a little more, really slow.



Coming off of the power company's transformer to a single family residence
are two hot conductors and a neutral conductor.

The neutral conductor is the return path for the current to go back to the
transformer from the two hot conductors.

The neutral conductor is bonded to earth via the water pipe and ground rods.

If you were to disconnect the neutral conductor the current will need to
find another path back to the transformer.

It can go through the earth via the ground rods and water pipe directly to
the transformer ground rod and grounding conductor.

However, depending on the location of the transformer and the neighbor's
house (Or the quality of the transformer ground) the current might find a
better path back to the transformer by going through the neighbor's water
pipe and ground rods into the neighbor's electrical panel and then
continuing through the neighbor's neutral conductor back to the transformer.

  #15   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 663
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Apr 13, 5:39 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message

...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the

neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel through

the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.


Could you explain this a little more, really slow.


Coming off of the power company's transformer to a single family residence
are two hot conductors and a neutral conductor.

The neutral conductor is the return path for the current to go back to the
transformer from the two hot conductors.

The neutral conductor is bonded to earth via the water pipe and ground rods.

If you were to disconnect the neutral conductor the current will need to
find another path back to the transformer.

It can go through the earth via the ground rods and water pipe directly to
the transformer ground rod and grounding conductor.

However, depending on the location of the transformer and the neighbor's
house (Or the quality of the transformer ground) the current might find a
better path back to the transformer by going through the neighbor's water
pipe and ground rods into the neighbor's electrical panel and then
continuing through the neighbor's neutral conductor back to the transformer.


I would think it would take the path back to the other winding in the
transformer.




  #16   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Terry" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Apr 13, 5:39 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message

...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the

neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his

neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel

through
the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.


Could you explain this a little more, really slow.


Coming off of the power company's transformer to a single family

residence
are two hot conductors and a neutral conductor.

The neutral conductor is the return path for the current to go back to

the
transformer from the two hot conductors.

The neutral conductor is bonded to earth via the water pipe and ground

rods.

If you were to disconnect the neutral conductor the current will need to
find another path back to the transformer.

It can go through the earth via the ground rods and water pipe directly

to
the transformer ground rod and grounding conductor.

However, depending on the location of the transformer and the neighbor's
house (Or the quality of the transformer ground) the current might find

a
better path back to the transformer by going through the neighbor's

water
pipe and ground rods into the neighbor's electrical panel and then
continuing through the neighbor's neutral conductor back to the

transformer.

I would think it would take the path back to the other winding in the
transformer.



The primary? I thought that it is only the secondary that is grounded..

  #17   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,196
Default Split Neutral Wiring

Noozer wrote:
"Ben" wrote in message
ups.com...
I thought I was pretty good when it comes to wiring. I thought I knew
enough to be safe and have good quality work when I do it on my own.
Then I learned about shared neutral lines for different hot phases. I
am shocked I never heard of this. No book I ever read mentioned shared
neutrals for household wiring.
Given that a shared neutral is a possibility, I don't understand how
anybody can do electrical work without shutting off power to the
entire house.


When done properly, the two breakers would be tied together, so either both
would be on or off.

I have shared neutrals in my box, done
by the original builder on separate
breakers. I know that doesn't make it
right. BTW, the house is 35 years
old. Also, in my local village hall
building, they have 3 phase shared neutrals
(208 Y connected) and all are separate
breakers. So I don't think there is
a requirement for common trip.
  #18   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,375
Default Split Neutral Wiring

In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
et...
In article , "Wade Lippman"
wrote:

That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless
it
is unconnected at the breaker box


FALSE!

The neutral is a current-carrying conductor under normal operation.
Contrary
to common belief, electricity does not follow "the path of least
resistance."
Rather, electricity follows all possible paths, and when you touch the
neutral, you create with your body a second, parallel path to ground for
the
current flowing in the neutral. Granted, that's probably (though not
necessarily) a fairly high-resistance path, which makes it *unlikely* that
you
will be shocked.

But definitely *not* impossible.

Your statement is false twice, actually: suppose the neutral is connected
just
fine *at* the breaker box, but is disconnected somewhere between there,
and
where you're working. In that case, you're putting yourself in *series*
with
the neutral current, not in parallel with it, and that makes a shock from
touching it *likely* (if the circuit is energized).


Gee Doug, with all the millions of dryers and ovens that have the chassis
attached to the neutrals and are touched daily by wet hands, how many shocks
do you think people get?
What the hell is wrong with you?

The question is, what the hell is wrong with *you*, continuing to insist that
the neutral has no potential for danger? That just isn't true. It's NOT the
same as ground, despite your persistent misunderstanding of that fact.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
  #21   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 663
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:02:46 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"Terry" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Apr 13, 5:39 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message

...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the
neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his

neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel

through
the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.

Could you explain this a little more, really slow.

Coming off of the power company's transformer to a single family

residence
are two hot conductors and a neutral conductor.

The neutral conductor is the return path for the current to go back to

the
transformer from the two hot conductors.

The neutral conductor is bonded to earth via the water pipe and ground

rods.

If you were to disconnect the neutral conductor the current will need to
find another path back to the transformer.

It can go through the earth via the ground rods and water pipe directly

to
the transformer ground rod and grounding conductor.

However, depending on the location of the transformer and the neighbor's
house (Or the quality of the transformer ground) the current might find

a
better path back to the transformer by going through the neighbor's

water
pipe and ground rods into the neighbor's electrical panel and then
continuing through the neighbor's neutral conductor back to the

transformer.

I would think it would take the path back to the other winding in the
transformer.



The primary? I thought that it is only the secondary that is grounded..


I should have said other leg of the transformer. I am only talking
about the secondary side.

Loosing the neutral on the secondary side will cause 240V across any
connected loads.

I can't see taking a neutral path to your neighbor's house.

  #22   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,044
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Apr 13, 6:36 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article , (Chris Lewis) wrote:
If the neutral isn't broken between you and the panel, the _maximum_
ground-neutral voltage you'll see in the OP's scenario is a volt or two.


That depends entirely on how well you are (or aren't) grounded. Under normal
circumstances, there won't be enough current to do any damage. One sweaty hand
on a grounded junction box, and the other sweaty hand touching an active
neutral, though...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.


I discovered a shared neutral in my old house by working in a box that
_should_ have been safe. Found the shared circuit is a yardlight on a
3 way switch in the back yard. I still haven't figured out how to
correct it without running new wires underground. They only used 12/2
WG for the wiring.

Harry K

  #25   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,934
Default Split Neutral Wiring


"Terry" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 20:02:46 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:


"Terry" wrote in message
roups.com...
On Apr 13, 5:39 pm, "John Grabowski" wrote:
"Terry" wrote in message

...

On Fri, 13 Apr 2007 16:45:45 -0400, "John Grabowski"
wrote:

Shutting off power to the entire house is not a guarantee that the
neutral
won't be hot. Under rare circumstances if your neighbor lost his

neutral
connection it is possible that his return current would travel

through
the
earth to your neutral connection and then back to the transformer.

Could you explain this a little more, really slow.

Coming off of the power company's transformer to a single family

residence
are two hot conductors and a neutral conductor.

The neutral conductor is the return path for the current to go back

to
the
transformer from the two hot conductors.

The neutral conductor is bonded to earth via the water pipe and

ground
rods.

If you were to disconnect the neutral conductor the current will need

to
find another path back to the transformer.

It can go through the earth via the ground rods and water pipe

directly
to
the transformer ground rod and grounding conductor.

However, depending on the location of the transformer and the

neighbor's
house (Or the quality of the transformer ground) the current might

find
a
better path back to the transformer by going through the neighbor's

water
pipe and ground rods into the neighbor's electrical panel and then
continuing through the neighbor's neutral conductor back to the

transformer.

I would think it would take the path back to the other winding in the
transformer.



The primary? I thought that it is only the secondary that is grounded..


I should have said other leg of the transformer. I am only talking
about the secondary side.

Loosing the neutral on the secondary side will cause 240V across any
connected loads.



The only circuits that will be affected by that are the ones that share a
neutral. Loads are not always perfectly balanced so the neutral will most
likely always have current going to it.


I can't see taking a neutral path to your neighbor's house.



I figured. End of discussion.



  #26   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 213
Default Split Neutral Wiring

On Sat, 14 Apr 2007 01:33:12 GMT, (Doug Miller)
wrote:

In article , "Wade Lippman" wrote:

"Doug Miller" wrote in message
. net...
In article , "Wade Lippman"
wrote:

That is not really a concern; you can't get a shock off a neutral unless
it
is unconnected at the breaker box

FALSE!

The neutral is a current-carrying conductor under normal operation.
Contrary
to common belief, electricity does not follow "the path of least
resistance."
Rather, electricity follows all possible paths, and when you touch the
neutral, you create with your body a second, parallel path to ground for
the
current flowing in the neutral. Granted, that's probably (though not
necessarily) a fairly high-resistance path, which makes it *unlikely* that
you
will be shocked.

But definitely *not* impossible.

Your statement is false twice, actually: suppose the neutral is connected
just
fine *at* the breaker box, but is disconnected somewhere between there,
and
where you're working. In that case, you're putting yourself in *series*
with
the neutral current, not in parallel with it, and that makes a shock from
touching it *likely* (if the circuit is energized).


Gee Doug, with all the millions of dryers and ovens that have the chassis
attached to the neutrals and are touched daily by wet hands, how many shocks
do you think people get?
What the hell is wrong with you?

The question is, what the hell is wrong with *you*, continuing to insist that
the neutral has no potential for danger? That just isn't true. It's NOT the
same as ground, despite your persistent misunderstanding of that fact.


I'm sorry Doug, but my neutrals are tied to ground in the breaker
box. Same was true of the last 2 houses I owned.




  #31   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,375
Default Split Neutral Wiring

In article , deke wrote:

I regularly install new switches and receptacles with the power on.


There's a saying that there are old electricians, and there are bold
electricians... but there are no old, bold electricians.

I touch the black (hot) and white (neutral) wire regularly with the
power on, just not at the same time. It is much faster and you
don't have to reset any clocks.


That's just foolish.

If you are slightly cautious, there is absolutely no way you are
going to get hurt.


Make sure your life insurance is paid up.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
  #32   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,743
Default Split Neutral Wiring

Doug Miller wrote:

That's just foolish.

If you are slightly cautious, there is absolutely no way you are
going to get hurt.


Make sure your life insurance is paid up.


Hmm. There are hundreds of electricians touching live wires every day. With
the proper precautions, it's not only safe, but required.

Think those who maintain the high-voltage distribution network.


  #34   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,375
Default Split Neutral Wiring

In article , "HeyBub" wrote:

Hmm. There are hundreds of electricians touching live wires every day. With
the proper precautions, it's not only safe, but required.

Think those who maintain the high-voltage distribution network.


Of course -- but you're talking about professionals, who do that on a
daily basis. *And* have had proper safety training, besides. This is a
homeowner forum. Most of the posters here are *not* pros, and have not had the
training and experience that the pros do.

Furthermore, I expect that the guys here who *are* pros would never advise a
non-professional that it's safe to work "hot".

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
  #35   Report Post  
Posted to alt.home.repair
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 695
Default Split Neutral Wiring

I don't do it anymore, cause I really don't like the feeling when I do get
shocked. BUT , when I was 13, my parents built on to the house. The
electrician was a man my dad worked with. I personally landed some 40-45
duplex outlets and a dozen or more switches all with the power on. Like was
said, stand on wood, touch one wire at a time and no problem. AND like I
also said, I don't do it anymore.

There was another electrician where my dad worked (a large steel fab plant)
who would probe voltages with one hand up to 440v. It all depends on the
individual's personal resistance .

There was a hired hand on the farm he grew up on who would shut down the 4
cylinder tractor by putting his arm across all 4 bare spark plug terminals.

--
Steve Barker




"deke" wrote in message
...

I regularly install new switches and receptacles with the power on.
I touch the black (hot) and white (neutral) wire regularly with the
power on, just not at the same time. It is much faster and you
don't have to reset any clocks.

If you are slightly cautious, there is absolutely no way you are
going to get hurt.








Reply
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules

Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Wiring split load CU Staffbull UK diy 34 October 9th 06 06:28 AM
4 gauge neutral wire doesn't fit in my neutral bus panel? sparty Home Repair 8 July 22nd 06 02:50 AM
Wiring subpanel - seperate ground / neutral DG Home Repair 6 April 2nd 06 06:47 AM
Open Neutral indication on switched split wired receptacle circuit [email protected] Home Ownership 0 November 10th 05 03:29 PM
Live and Neutral incorrect wiring Pedge UK diy 4 February 8th 05 01:22 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 07:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2024 DIYbanter.
The comments are property of their posters.
 

About Us

"It's about DIY & home improvement"