[[email protected]]

I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?

[Notan]

wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?

I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

--
Notan

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?


It will work fine. It is best to use as thin a pad as possible and the
pad and carpet will lower the efficiency a little, but it will still
work fine. Check out some of the folks that sell these systems for more
details.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Notan wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?

I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

Your thinking is incorrect.

Matt

[dnoyeB]

On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:20:58 -0800, beerguzzler50 wrote:

I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?

how will you be attaching the carpet to the floor? much humidity in your
basement?

[Doug Miller]

In article , Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?

I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its surface
temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees higher than that
under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F will be harmful?

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Paul M. Eldridge]

Is there any insulation underneath the slab and, if so, how much?
Carpet and under pad are reasonably good insulators and so more of
this heat will be re-directed downward and out of your home. It
doesn't strike me as a good idea, especially if the slab is
uninsulated.

Cheers,
Paul

[Matt Whiting]

Paul M. Eldridge wrote:
Is there any insulation underneath the slab and, if so, how much?
Carpet and under pad are reasonably good insulators and so more of
this heat will be re-directed downward and out of your home. It
doesn't strike me as a good idea, especially if the slab is
uninsulated.

Yes, the slab should be insulated from the ground no matter what floor
covering is selected.

Matt

[Notan]

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its surface
temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees higher than that
under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F will be harmful?

I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.

I guess Matt knows!

(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)

--
Notan

[Doug Miller]

In article , Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan
notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its surface
temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees higher than that
under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F will be harmful?

I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.

I guess Matt knows!

(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)

Radiant heat is used under carpet frequently. It's just not a problem. 88
degrees won't hurt the carpet. (Would you worry about the carpet being harmed
by high temperatures in the summer, if you didn't have air conditioning?)

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Notan]

Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan
notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its surface
temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees higher than that
under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F will be harmful?
I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.

I guess Matt knows!

(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)

Radiant heat is used under carpet frequently. It's just not a problem. 88
degrees won't hurt the carpet. (Would you worry about the carpet being harmed
by high temperatures in the summer, if you didn't have air conditioning?)

I wasn't thinking short term effects, but rather, long(er) term.

Apparently, I was wrong!

--
Notan

[Matt Whiting]

Notan wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan
notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its
backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its
surface temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees
higher than that under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F
will be harmful?

I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.

I guess Matt knows!

(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)

I researched hydronic radiant heat before building my log house. It
certainly is a good idea to do your own research though, and it isn't a
good idea to post incorrect information.

Matt

[[email protected]]

On Mar 11, 1:14 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Notan wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan
notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its
backing.

A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its
surface temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees
higher than that under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F
will be harmful?

I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.

I guess Matt knows!

(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)

I researched hydronic radiant heat before building my log house. It
certainly is a good idea to do your own research though, and it isn't a
good idea to post incorrect information.

Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).

[Doug Miller]

In article . com, wrote:

I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).

Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.

Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
On Mar 11, 1:14 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
Notan wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article , Notan
notan@ddressthatcanbespammed wrote:
wrote:
I am thinking about using radiant heat panels (Roth) in an in process
finished basement. I have hydronic already in the house with a
boiler. But I would be using carpet in the basement...will these
types of radiant heat setups work well in a basement with carpeting?
I'm thinking that radiant heat *can't* be good for carpet or its
backing.
A heated floor becomes uncomfortable to walk or stand on when its
surface temperature exceeds 85 degrees F, which means a few degrees
higher than that under the carpet. Do you really suppose that 88 deg F
will be harmful?
I thought it might affect different carpets/backings, differently,
but according to Matt, I'm wrong.
I guess Matt knows!
(I'd still check with a carpet person, first.)
I researched hydronic radiant heat before building my log house. It
certainly is a good idea to do your own research though, and it isn't a
good idea to post incorrect information.

Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).

There may be, but I'm not aware of any way other than core boring the
slab in a non conspicuous location. Locating the builder would be the
easiest way. It seems the municipality should have building permit
records that might tell who the builder was.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).

Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.

That is funny. It would take a pretty well calibrated set of feet to
tell the difference in ten minutes for a standard 4" thick slab.


Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.

This won't work either as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
You are looking for a rate of heat transfer, not an absolute
temperature. Depending on the ambience temps in the basement, a slab
could be at 60 F whether it is insulated or uninsulated. If you knew of
a slab nearby that was insulated and one that wasn't, you might be able
to heat a spot on both and watch the cool down rate with an IR camera
and compare them to your slab. But that is a lot more work than finding
the original building or drilling a 1/2" hole and seeing if you hit
foam. A core bore would give you a more accurate sample, but a simple
drilled hole would tell you if foam was there, but it would be harder to
get the exact thickness.


Matt

[[email protected]]

On Mar 12, 6:31 am, Matt Whiting wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:

I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).

Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.

That is funny. It would take a pretty well calibrated set of feet to
tell the difference in ten minutes for a standard 4" thick slab.

Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.

This won't work either as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
You are looking for a rate of heat transfer, not an absolute
temperature. Depending on the ambience temps in the basement, a slab
could be at 60 F whether it is insulated or uninsulated. If you knew of
a slab nearby that was insulated and one that wasn't, you might be able
to heat a spot on both and watch the cool down rate with an IR camera
and compare them to your slab. But that is a lot more work than finding
the original building or drilling a 1/2" hole and seeing if you hit
foam. A core bore would give you a more accurate sample, but a simple
drilled hole would tell you if foam was there, but it would be harder to
get the exact thickness.

Matt


I just realized that there is an open 1ftx1ft hole in the floor for
the roughed in shower drain. There is crushed stone in the bottom . I
can probably scoop some of it out looking for insulation. How far
down is the foam board insulation usually in a foundation? If there
is none, should I not conisder radiant floors there? A friend of mine
said he had routed out plywood to run pex tubing and that was it for
his radiant floor...he hasn't hooked it up yet and it was on his
second floor. Is that an option for a basement floor (need to lay
plywood).

[Paul M. Eldridge]

On 12 Mar 2007 12:58:56 -0700, wrote:

I just realized that there is an open 1ftx1ft hole in the floor for
the roughed in shower drain. There is crushed stone in the bottom . I
can probably scoop some of it out looking for insulation. How far
down is the foam board insulation usually in a foundation? If there
is none, should I not conisder radiant floors there? A friend of mine
said he had routed out plywood to run pex tubing and that was it for
his radiant floor...he hasn't hooked it up yet and it was on his
second floor. Is that an option for a basement floor (need to lay
plywood).

The insulation, if it exists, should be directly underneath the
concrete slab. And would I use radiant heat without insulation?
Sorry, I'm not *that* rich!

Cheers,
Paul

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:31 am, Matt Whiting wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).
Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.
That is funny. It would take a pretty well calibrated set of feet to
tell the difference in ten minutes for a standard 4" thick slab.

Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.
This won't work either as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
You are looking for a rate of heat transfer, not an absolute
temperature. Depending on the ambience temps in the basement, a slab
could be at 60 F whether it is insulated or uninsulated. If you knew of
a slab nearby that was insulated and one that wasn't, you might be able
to heat a spot on both and watch the cool down rate with an IR camera
and compare them to your slab. But that is a lot more work than finding
the original building or drilling a 1/2" hole and seeing if you hit
foam. A core bore would give you a more accurate sample, but a simple
drilled hole would tell you if foam was there, but it would be harder to
get the exact thickness.

Matt


I just realized that there is an open 1ftx1ft hole in the floor for
the roughed in shower drain. There is crushed stone in the bottom . I
can probably scoop some of it out looking for insulation. How far
down is the foam board insulation usually in a foundation? If there
is none, should I not conisder radiant floors there? A friend of mine
said he had routed out plywood to run pex tubing and that was it for
his radiant floor...he hasn't hooked it up yet and it was on his
second floor. Is that an option for a basement floor (need to lay
plywood).

It should immediately under the concrete and above the gravel. If you
have to dig through much gravel to find it, then it probably isn't there.

Running the pex within plywood or furring strips covered by plywood is
your only option. It is probably still worth it, but certainly won't be
as effective as it would be with an insulated slab. If you have enough
head room you could always lay insulation on top of the slab and then
lay the pex on top of that and over with plywood. However, you are now
adding close to 3" to your floor which may be an issue.


Matt

[[email protected]]

On Mar 12, 5:01 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:31 am, Matt Whiting wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).
Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.
That is funny. It would take a pretty well calibrated set of feet to
tell the difference in ten minutes for a standard 4" thick slab.

Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.
This won't work either as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
You are looking for a rate of heat transfer, not an absolute
temperature. Depending on the ambience temps in the basement, a slab
could be at 60 F whether it is insulated or uninsulated. If you knew of
a slab nearby that was insulated and one that wasn't, you might be able
to heat a spot on both and watch the cool down rate with an IR camera
and compare them to your slab. But that is a lot more work than finding
the original building or drilling a 1/2" hole and seeing if you hit
foam. A core bore would give you a more accurate sample, but a simple
drilled hole would tell you if foam was there, but it would be harder to
get the exact thickness.

Matt

I just realized that there is an open 1ftx1ft hole in the floor for
the roughed in shower drain. There is crushed stone in the bottom . I
can probably scoop some of it out looking for insulation. How far
down is the foam board insulation usually in a foundation? If there
is none, should I not conisder radiant floors there? A friend of mine
said he had routed out plywood to run pex tubing and that was it for
his radiant floor...he hasn't hooked it up yet and it was on his
second floor. Is that an option for a basement floor (need to lay
plywood).

It should immediately under the concrete and above the gravel. If you
have to dig through much gravel to find it, then it probably isn't there.

Running the pex within plywood or furring strips covered by plywood is
your only option. It is probably still worth it, but certainly won't be
as effective as it would be with an insulated slab. If you have enough
head room you could always lay insulation on top of the slab and then
lay the pex on top of that and over with plywood. However, you are now
adding close to 3" to your floor which may be an issue.

Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just verified that there is no insulation. Would laying 3/4" of foam
on top of slab (R4 I think), then plywood with pex be a good
approach? Do I need the aluminum in the plywood to make it work? It
seems it would be cheaper to route my own plywood and snap the pex
in. My other option is to use hydronic baseboard heaters...

[Matt Whiting]

wrote:
On Mar 12, 5:01 pm, Matt Whiting wrote:
wrote:
On Mar 12, 6:31 am, Matt Whiting wrote:
Doug Miller wrote:
In article . com, wrote:
I am not sure that the foundation was insulated underneath...is there
a way to verify? The house was built in 2000 and I don't know the
builder. The original owner wouldn't know either. Is there a way to
check/verify (without digging under the foundation of course).
Stand on it barefoot for ten minutes. If it feels pleasantly cool, it's
probably insulated. If it feels cold, it's probably not.
That is funny. It would take a pretty well calibrated set of feet to
tell the difference in ten minutes for a standard 4" thick slab.
Or you could try measuring the temperature of the slab with an IR thermometer.
I'd expect it to be noticeably above 60 deg F if it's insulated, but that's
just a guess.
This won't work either as there are too many uncontrolled variables.
You are looking for a rate of heat transfer, not an absolute
temperature. Depending on the ambience temps in the basement, a slab
could be at 60 F whether it is insulated or uninsulated. If you knew of
a slab nearby that was insulated and one that wasn't, you might be able
to heat a spot on both and watch the cool down rate with an IR camera
and compare them to your slab. But that is a lot more work than finding
the original building or drilling a 1/2" hole and seeing if you hit
foam. A core bore would give you a more accurate sample, but a simple
drilled hole would tell you if foam was there, but it would be harder to
get the exact thickness.
Matt
I just realized that there is an open 1ftx1ft hole in the floor for
the roughed in shower drain. There is crushed stone in the bottom . I
can probably scoop some of it out looking for insulation. How far
down is the foam board insulation usually in a foundation? If there
is none, should I not conisder radiant floors there? A friend of mine
said he had routed out plywood to run pex tubing and that was it for
his radiant floor...he hasn't hooked it up yet and it was on his
second floor. Is that an option for a basement floor (need to lay
plywood).
It should immediately under the concrete and above the gravel. If you
have to dig through much gravel to find it, then it probably isn't there.

Running the pex within plywood or furring strips covered by plywood is
your only option. It is probably still worth it, but certainly won't be
as effective as it would be with an insulated slab. If you have enough
head room you could always lay insulation on top of the slab and then
lay the pex on top of that and over with plywood. However, you are now
adding close to 3" to your floor which may be an issue.

Matt- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Just verified that there is no insulation. Would laying 3/4" of foam
on top of slab (R4 I think), then plywood with pex be a good
approach? Do I need the aluminum in the plywood to make it work? It
seems it would be cheaper to route my own plywood and snap the pex
in. My other option is to use hydronic baseboard heaters...

It would probably work, but I would contact one of the many makers of
this equipment and get their advice. They have worked with a lot of
different situations and know their systems best. If you are at the
design stage, it is time to get help from the folks that know best.

Matt

[HerHusband]

Just verified that there is no insulation. Would laying 3/4" of foam
on top of slab (R4 I think), then plywood with pex be a good
approach? Do I need the aluminum in the plywood to make it work?

Radiant floor heat works by "radiating" the heat into the living space. The
more surface area, the better. When the tubing is placed within the
concrete, the entire slab becomes the radiator. Otherwise, you'll most
likely need the aluminum plates to take the heat from the PEX and radiate
it into the room. I doubt you would get enough heat from the bare tubes to
be efficient.

If you insist on hydronic floor heat, there are companies that make panels
with the aluminum plates and tubing channels ready to go. One source is:

http://www.warmzone.com/hydronic-rad...oor-heatin.asp

My other option is to use hydronic baseboard heaters.

If you really want radiant, you might want to consider electric radiant.
Very low profile, and easy to add as a retrofit. The warmzone site above
also offers some of those too.

Of course, the simplest option would be to add in-wall electric heaters
like those made by Cadet or King Electric. We heat our entire house using
King Electrics "Pic-A-Watt" heaters. They're quiet, efficient, and we can
zone each room for only the heat we need.

Anthony