So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat the
fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of resources
out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about what I'm
seeing.

Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you feel/see
it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the joint. If
the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should quickly flow into
and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on, always a sign of
unprofessional work.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you feel/see
it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the joint. If
the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should quickly flow into
and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on, always a sign of
unprofessional work.


Well I'm all about unprofessional. However I do have about 10 elbows and
T's to practice with.

I take it that heating doesn't take long at all. I'm seeing a green flame
after about 10 to 20 seconds.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

Seeing green has nothing to do with the coppers heat, that's the gas your
using. Hear is what you want to do heat the pipe evenly make sure you go a
couple inches each side of the fitting your soldiering. When the solider
starts to flow put the heat on the back of the fitting the heat draws the
solider in. I also like to feed the solider in on the top side most leaks
seem to be on the top so this helps. Most the time with 3/4" and 1/2" it
doesn't make that big of a deference but it's a good practice. In time you
will learn to pull your torch back to control the heat. I also would
recommend no-corrode ( brand) flux. Some people don't even sand the pipe or
fittings before soldering I always do I think it makes for a better job.Once
you solider your joint/joints let the cool if you bump it or wipe the joint
to soon while the solider is still molten you will have a leak for sure.
Just take your time it's not Rocket science.


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you feel/see
it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the joint. If
the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should quickly flow into
and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on, always a sign of
unprofessional work.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

Eigenvector wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you feel/see
it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the joint. If
the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should quickly flow into
and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on, always a sign of
unprofessional work.


Well I'm all about unprofessional. However I do have about 10 elbows and
T's to practice with.

I take it that heating doesn't take long at all. I'm seeing a green flame
after about 10 to 20 seconds.

For what it is worth, I too struggled with my soldering technique with
respect to copper tubing. The tip that helped the most for me was to
watch the bubbling of the flux. When it stopped, it was time to put the
solder on it, and remove the heat. Over heating causes the solder to
bubble out rather than flow. Practice is the best way to prepare for a
job. Good luck.


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

On Sun, 25 Feb 2007 16:55:53 -0800, "Eigenvector"
wrote:


"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you feel/see
it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the joint. If
the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should quickly flow into
and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on, always a sign of
unprofessional work.


Well I'm all about unprofessional. However I do have about 10 elbows and
T's to practice with.

Apply heat on elbows on the outside radius. It will draw flux and
solder into the joint.

T's and couplings - heat in the center to have the same.

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

Green flame = too hot too fast. what are you heating with?

--
Steve Barker




"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

"Steve Barker" wrote in message
...
Green flame = too hot too fast. what are you heating with?

--
Steve Barker


I'm using a propane torch. You know, the old Benzomatic

The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them, all
say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem to work
that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point is reached.
I'm undoubtedly moving too slow when I apply the solder, but green flame
seems to be the right point - about the time the flux stops smoking.



"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat
the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about
what I'm seeing.

On Mon, 26 Feb 2007 01:21:12 GMT, Ken wrote:

For what it is worth, I too struggled with my soldering technique with
respect to copper tubing. The tip that helped the most for me was to
watch the bubbling of the flux. When it stopped, it was time to put the
solder on it, and remove the heat. Over heating causes the solder to
bubble out rather than flow. Practice is the best way to prepare for a
job. Good luck.

Not burning the flux is very, very important.

--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

"Ken" wrote in message
...
Eigenvector wrote:
"Jeff" wrote in message
...
Usually if you see much green the copper is too hot. Even heating is
important. I just gently tap the joint with the solder until you
feel/see it melt, heat just a little more, then push the solder onto the
joint. If the surfaces are clean and well fluxed the solder should
quickly flow into and around the joint. Don't pile excess solder on,
always a sign of unprofessional work.


Well I'm all about unprofessional. However I do have about 10 elbows and
T's to practice with.

I take it that heating doesn't take long at all. I'm seeing a green
flame after about 10 to 20 seconds.

For what it is worth, I too struggled with my soldering technique with
respect to copper tubing. The tip that helped the most for me was to
watch the bubbling of the flux. When it stopped, it was time to put the
solder on it, and remove the heat. Over heating causes the solder to
bubble out rather than flow. Practice is the best way to prepare for a
job. Good luck.


Well that's why I bought lots of fittings - practice practice practice. Any
idea how long a bottle of propane lasts?


"Eigenvector" wrote in message
...
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I
say "Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't
make it around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating.
Is that normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the
heat the fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of
resources out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions
about what I'm seeing.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem to
work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point is
reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame as a
guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.

On Feb 25, 6:18 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
So far my efforts are working out learning how to do this, but I have a
couple of questions

I'm heating up the fitting and the flame on my torch turns green. I say
"Okay it's time to apply the solder" so I'm finding that I can't make it
around the entire circumference of the joint without reheating. Is that
normal or am I soldering too early?

Also, when torching a 1/2" fitting, I'm moving the flame around the heat the
fitting evenly - is that really necessary?

Anyways I don't need a primer on how to solder, there's plenty of resources
out there for that. But I just had a couple of questions about what I'm
seeing.

Which brings up another question(s). HD sells presoldered fittings -
the fitting has a ridge filled with solder about 1/4" inside the lip.
Anyone have any experience with them? Are these worth the extra 10-15
cents for novice work? Do they have enough solder for a good joint?
Can you screw them up by overheating?

Bob

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem to
work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point is
reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame as a
guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem to
work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point is
reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame as a
guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
I intend too. Nothing wrong with practicing, except of course for the money
spent.

http://www.sas.org/E-Bulletin/2003-0...es2/index.html
http://www.doityourself.com/stry/cutjoincopperpipe

Not arguing with you, just giving you samples of where I picked up the tip
that green flame is an indicator.

As you say, practice practice, practice.

"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message
...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
t...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.
Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

...



"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

"BobK207" wrote in message
oups.com...
On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

...



"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob


Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally seem to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

On Feb 27, 6:51 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

et...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally seem to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

EV-

Believe me, the green flame thing is totally bogus indicator.

The copper color change is a better one,

Too hot is bad, you want uniform heat, quickly applied,

don't burn the flux, if you're using a little torch use Mapp

At the correct heat that solder will suck in & you're done in an
instant.

Q2....tight is bad!

The tube & the fitting should easily slip together; the fitting should
easily spin on the tube.

You want a gap; that's where the solder goes.....about 3 year ago I
was sweated a drop ear elbow (1") that was a real tight fit. Too lazy
to correct the problem, in a hurry, wanted to be done....... Turned
out there was a tiny point of interference between the tube & the
fitting.

Sure enough I got a leaker...took it apart, found the interference,
filed it off. Re-soldered it, no problem

So a gap everywhere is important...I forget the designed in gap but I
sure its in the .002/.003" range.

Too big solder won't fill,
no gap...no room for solder.

cheers
Bob

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 27, 6:51 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

et...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production
soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green
flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as
an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally seem
to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when
you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the
ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

EV-

Believe me, the green flame thing is totally bogus indicator.

The copper color change is a better one,

Too hot is bad, you want uniform heat, quickly applied,

don't burn the flux, if you're using a little torch use Mapp

At the correct heat that solder will suck in & you're done in an
instant.

Q2....tight is bad!

The tube & the fitting should easily slip together; the fitting should
easily spin on the tube.

You want a gap; that's where the solder goes.....about 3 year ago I
was sweated a drop ear elbow (1") that was a real tight fit. Too lazy
to correct the problem, in a hurry, wanted to be done....... Turned
out there was a tiny point of interference between the tube & the
fitting.

Sure enough I got a leaker...took it apart, found the interference,
filed it off. Re-soldered it, no problem

So a gap everywhere is important...I forget the designed in gap but I
sure its in the .002/.003" range.

Too big solder won't fill,
no gap...no room for solder.

cheers
Bob


Damn, it's gonna take me forever to learn how to do this.

One other thing I learned, don't do this near the smoke alarm - all that
smoke from the flux set off the alarm scaring me and not noticing the drop
of solder on my knuckle from the joint I was practicing on. At least I had
sense not to drop the torch. Damn that hurt.

I appreciate you sticking with me on this. It was a lot easier for me to
learn arc welding than soldering for some reason (Engineering degree
requires proficiency in this at my Alma Mater). I flunked out of brazing,
but passed on welding even with those goofy masks on that you can barely see
through even with the arc going. How welders can see what they're doing
I'll never know.

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 27, 6:51 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

oups.com...



On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

et...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production
soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green
flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as
an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally seem
to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when
you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the
ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

EV-

Believe me, the green flame thing is totally bogus indicator.

The copper color change is a better one,

Too hot is bad, you want uniform heat, quickly applied,

don't burn the flux, if you're using a little torch use Mapp

At the correct heat that solder will suck in & you're done in an
instant.

Q2....tight is bad!

The tube & the fitting should easily slip together; the fitting should
easily spin on the tube.

You want a gap; that's where the solder goes.....about 3 year ago I
was sweated a drop ear elbow (1") that was a real tight fit. Too lazy
to correct the problem, in a hurry, wanted to be done....... Turned
out there was a tiny point of interference between the tube & the
fitting.

Sure enough I got a leaker...took it apart, found the interference,
filed it off. Re-soldered it, no problem

So a gap everywhere is important...I forget the designed in gap but I
sure its in the .002/.003" range.

Too big solder won't fill,
no gap...no room for solder.

cheers
Bob


Damn, it's gonna take me forever to learn how to do this.

One other thing I learned, don't do this near the smoke alarm - all that
smoke from the flux set off the alarm scaring me and not noticing the drop
of solder on my knuckle from the joint I was practicing on. At least I had
sense not to drop the torch. Damn that hurt.

I appreciate you sticking with me on this. It was a lot easier for me to
learn arc welding than soldering for some reason (Engineering degree
requires proficiency in this at my Alma Mater). I flunked out of brazing,
but passed on welding even with those goofy masks on that you can barely see
through even with the arc going. How welders can see what they're doing
I'll never know.

"Eigenvector" wrote in message

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

If the fit it too tight, it will starve the joint for solder. Try using
less pressure and more turns on the tubing cutter. the tube should stay in
the fitting but not be so snug as to need a hammer to get it into place.

On Feb 27, 8:33 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Feb 27, 6:51 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

et...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production
soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green
flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame as
an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally seem
to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when
you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the
ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but in
future I'll want them together obviously.

EV-

Believe me, the green flame thing is totally bogus indicator.

The copper color change is a better one,

Too hot is bad, you want uniform heat, quickly applied,

don't burn the flux, if you're using a little torch use Mapp

At the correct heat that solder will suck in & you're done in an
instant.

Q2....tight is bad!

The tube & the fitting should easily slip together; the fitting should
easily spin on the tube.

You want a gap; that's where the solder goes.....about 3 year ago I
was sweated a drop ear elbow (1") that was a real tight fit. Too lazy
to correct the problem, in a hurry, wanted to be done....... Turned
out there was a tiny point of interference between the tube & the
fitting.

Sure enough I got a leaker...took it apart, found the interference,
filed it off. Re-soldered it, no problem

So a gap everywhere is important...I forget the designed in gap but I
sure its in the .002/.003" range.

Too big solder won't fill,
no gap...no room for solder.

cheers
Bob

Damn, it's gonna take me forever to learn how to do this.

One other thing I learned, don't do this near the smoke alarm - all that
smoke from the flux set off the alarm scaring me and not noticing the drop
of solder on my knuckle from the joint I was practicing on. At least I had
sense not to drop the torch. Damn that hurt.

I appreciate you sticking with me on this. It was a lot easier for me to
learn arc welding than soldering for some reason (Engineering degree
requires proficiency in this at my Alma Mater). I flunked out of brazing,
but passed on welding even with those goofy masks on that you can barely see
through even with the arc going. How welders can see what they're doing
I'll never know.

I'm positive arc welding is done by Braille or imagination /
visualization.

I read through several web pages on soldering & here are links to the
better (IMO) one

http://www.rd.com/content/openConten...ontentId=18276
http://www.copper.org/copperhome/DIY...ingschool.html

I think that your joints maybe be failing due to over heating,
keep most of the heat on the fitting (80%+),
stay away from the ends of the fitting, heat will flow from fitting to
tube

touch the fitting / tube gap at a point Oppostite the flame
application...

that is, if the fitting is beig heated at 3 o'clock, apply solder at 9

the soldering starting to melt will give you the best indication of
proper temp, heat just slightly more, take the heat away & feed te
solder. The solder should zip right into the joint.

If the flux starts to smoke like crazy (black smoke)....too hot.

Think about the total joint volume, gap volume, you only need to apply
enough + a little

a typical 1/2 copper tube joint will need a couple of inches of .1/8"
solder......if you over feed it will just drip out


cheers
Bob

"BobK207" wrote in message
ups.com...
On Feb 27, 8:33 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

ups.com...



On Feb 27, 6:51 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"BobK207" wrote in message

groups.com...

On Feb 25, 8:49 pm, "Eigenvector" wrote:
"Sacramento Dave" wrote in message

et...

"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote in message
et...

"Eigenvector" wrote in message
The sources that I've read, and actually there are quite a bit
of
them,
all say that a green flame indicates the joint is ready. It
does
seem
to work that way too, the solder typically doesn't melt until
that
point
is reached.

Some years ago I worked at a place where they did production
soldering
of
joints. Thousands of joints per day. No one ever used a green
flame
as
a guide.

Nor have I ever seen a Bernzomatic heat up a joint in ten
seconds,
especially for the lead free solders.

Practice a bit more and heat a bit more.
Sometimes the flame will change color when you gas is getting
low
especially with acetylene. I have never heard about a Green flame
as
an
indicator the pipe is ready, but do I know I'm just a plumber.

Read my response to Ed, that's where I picked that up.

EV-

Forget that green flame thing, not a good indication of proper temp

I can tell by how the fitting color changes...too localized color
change, not spreading the heat good enough...move the torch around,
"paint" the fitting with heat

Do not overheat / burn the flux.

Forget the propane, not enough heat, switch to Mapp Gas (might work
with your current BM head)

I used Benzomatic / propane with my dad 40+ years ago.....not enough
heat unless you're doing small joints & no wind. About 25 years ago
I
switched to an air breathing acetylene rig for big / lots of joints;
can sweat in a wind storm.

For the one off or few joints...Mapp gas...less hassle than dragging
out the tank, hose & torch.

cheers
Bob

Well for now I'm using it, but not relying on it. It does generally
seem
to
be a decent indicator of when the copper is hot enough, but so far in
the
tests that I'm done it can mean the joint is TOO hot - in which case
the
solder beads up and rolls off rather than wicking into the joint.

1 perfect joint, 6 crappy ones, 2 failures.

A second question, is it common for those joints to be very tight when
you
fit them together? I was wondering if my pipe cutter was flaring the
ends
and making the joint too tight to fit. On some of them I simply
couldn't
get them all the way together - not a problem on practice joints but
in
future I'll want them together obviously.

EV-

Believe me, the green flame thing is totally bogus indicator.

The copper color change is a better one,

Too hot is bad, you want uniform heat, quickly applied,

don't burn the flux, if you're using a little torch use Mapp

At the correct heat that solder will suck in & you're done in an
instant.

Q2....tight is bad!

The tube & the fitting should easily slip together; the fitting should
easily spin on the tube.

You want a gap; that's where the solder goes.....about 3 year ago I
was sweated a drop ear elbow (1") that was a real tight fit. Too lazy
to correct the problem, in a hurry, wanted to be done....... Turned
out there was a tiny point of interference between the tube & the
fitting.

Sure enough I got a leaker...took it apart, found the interference,
filed it off. Re-soldered it, no problem

So a gap everywhere is important...I forget the designed in gap but I
sure its in the .002/.003" range.

Too big solder won't fill,
no gap...no room for solder.

cheers
Bob

Damn, it's gonna take me forever to learn how to do this.

One other thing I learned, don't do this near the smoke alarm - all that
smoke from the flux set off the alarm scaring me and not noticing the
drop
of solder on my knuckle from the joint I was practicing on. At least I
had
sense not to drop the torch. Damn that hurt.

I appreciate you sticking with me on this. It was a lot easier for me to
learn arc welding than soldering for some reason (Engineering degree
requires proficiency in this at my Alma Mater). I flunked out of
brazing,
but passed on welding even with those goofy masks on that you can barely
see
through even with the arc going. How welders can see what they're doing
I'll never know.

I'm positive arc welding is done by Braille or imagination /
visualization.

I read through several web pages on soldering & here are links to the
better (IMO) one

http://www.rd.com/content/openConten...ontentId=18276
http://www.copper.org/copperhome/DIY...ingschool.html

I think that your joints maybe be failing due to over heating,
keep most of the heat on the fitting (80%+),
stay away from the ends of the fitting, heat will flow from fitting to
tube

touch the fitting / tube gap at a point Oppostite the flame
application...

that is, if the fitting is beig heated at 3 o'clock, apply solder at 9

the soldering starting to melt will give you the best indication of
proper temp, heat just slightly more, take the heat away & feed te
solder. The solder should zip right into the joint.

If the flux starts to smoke like crazy (black smoke)....too hot.

Think about the total joint volume, gap volume, you only need to apply
enough + a little

a typical 1/2 copper tube joint will need a couple of inches of .1/8"
solder......if you over feed it will just drip out


cheers
Bob


Actually this morning at work I was reading some back posts on this group
and picked out the same tip you did. So today I tried heating the joint and
starting to sweat from the back of the pipe. That did the trick, it really
sucked up the solder too! My god, push the solder tip on the pipe and
solder squirts out almost the whole circumference of the pipe. So far so
good, no more burned knuckles and the joints are starting to look better and
better. I also noticed that I tend to get a better joint when the fitting
is larger. I assume that means I'm overheating and the larger fitting is
absorbing more of the heat. Whereas with the couple fitting there isn't
enough copper to absorb the heat and the joint stays hotter longer.