[Jason Carlton]

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

[JoeSpareBedroom[_3_]]

"Jason Carlton" wrote in message
...
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.


How much are you talking about in actual dollars for the size of the pond
you're thinking of building?

[Rick Samuel[_2_]]

"Jason Carlton" wrote in message
...
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

Yes, use 45 mil. We have a 1000 gal pond, 8 years old. This next spring
going to double or triple the size. Used 45 mil last time and will again.

[stan]

On Oct 3, 4:37*am, "Rick Samuel"
wrote:
"Jason Carlton" wrote in message

...

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

*Yes, use 45 mil. *We have a 1000 gal pond, 8 years old. *This next spring
going to double or triple the size. *Used 45 mil last time and will again.

PS. Private pond nice feature. There may be insurance/liability
implications if one 'builds' a pond and if someone were to wander in
(especially if property unfenced) and fall in. This similar to a
having an unfenced, locked gate access, private swimming pool on one's
property. If pond is/was a natural feature of the landscape the
situation might be different?

[Jim Elbrecht]

Jason Carlton wrote:

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond?

Yep- Last year. I'm in NY. The pond is tiny- 8x12x2ft deep at its
deepest point. Its primary purpose was for pugs to wade in- but
it has become a home to some beautiful flora and fauna. [and the dogs
cool off in it from time to time]

I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

No matter the size or where you live- the money you save on a lighter
liner is miniscule compare to the amount of work & money you'll have
invested by the end of year one. It would be foolish to skimp on
the weakest link. When a kingfisher plunges down and punctures
your liner you'll wish you'd spent the extra $$. [what *is* the
difference?]

45mil EPDM is the *only* way to go. [well-- I suppose plastered
concrete would do- but it is a whole nother story.

http://ponddepot.com/pondliner.html has 45mil epdm for .55/sq foot. [a
15x20 would be $165]

I also bought a lot of supplies from azponds.com. I've managed to
spend a couple grand on things over the last 2 years- mostly online
for 1/2 what the local pond store or the borg sells things for.

Hook up with http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pondkeepers/
and news:rec.ponds.moderated for some helpful folks to guide you
through the process. Then go for it. One of the most satisfying
projects I've undertaken.

Jim

[Colbyt]

"Jason Carlton" wrote in message
...
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.





45 mil is the only way to go. Mine is 15 years old (ag zone 6) and going
strong.

You may find a local to you better price than mail order. I did and saved
about 20% while paying no added shipping.

[RicodJour]

On Oct 2, 10:55*pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

The first tear in the liner will make you regret "saving" the, what?
$60?

R

[aemeijers]

Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

What, you don't like indoor ponds any more?
:^/
--
aem sends...

[Tom Horne[_4_]]

On Oct 2, 10:55*pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

If your pond will hold one thousand gallons or more and you do not
have fire hydrants within one thousand all weather road feet of your
home you may want to consider providing a drafting hydrant for use by
the fire department in protecting your home. Installed at the same
time as the pond the additional cost are quite low. Some insurers
will give you a break on your homeowners insurance if you provide
water for fire protection. FWIW.

--
Tom Horne

[Don Phillipson[_3_]]

"Jason Carlton" wrote in message
...

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

State Agricultural Extension departments usually provide
detailed instructions how to d.i.y. (These are usually designed
for farmers, working alone but with machinery, e.g. backhoes
or bulldozers.)

--
Don Phillipson
Carlsbad Springs
(Ottawa, Canada)

[windcrest]

On Oct 2, 9:55*pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

I built an outdoor pond, and never will do it again. Mine was only 4
feet deep, all the fish froze to death over the winter (Chicago) (it
should have been minimum 6 feet deep). I also regret not installing a
bottom drain return for the bio filter, as that would have kept the
bottom clean. If I did go 6 feet I would have had too much ground
water pushing the liner back up. Also if it is not on perfectly level
ground you'll get runoff into the pond and liner lift out, mine was on
a very slight slope which was problematic. All in all I learned a
lot, it was hard work and cost a lot of money to build. After built
it was a constant source of maintenance work and little jabs from the
wife worrying about a neighbor kid falling into it. Both of these
were not worth it. But it did look pretty with the lilypads and fake
koi (colored goldfish that look like koi but are 1/16th the price).

I would never have another pond in suburbia, maybe on a farm if I
could do it naturally by tapping a spring or artesian well and use a
clay bottom.

After 2 years I pulled the liner and filled it with black dirt, now
its a vegetable garden and I have bought myself back many months of
living doing other things I enjoy more.

[Master Betty]

"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Jason Carlton wrote in news:351d6fb5-851f-4154-
:

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.


It was many many moons ago but I believe I used the 45. Last thing I
wanted was a leak, tear, sun deterioration, cold weather crack after all
that work. I was in northern VT. It was 4ft deep because in winter it
would freeze very deep at 20-30 below. Many critters found their way to
it, lived in the summer and hibernated in the winter at the bottom. Had
water plants in pots on a ledge below the water line. They were dropped
to the bottom in winter.

Most of my supplies I got mail order from a large supplier. Prices then
were much better than local. Link for liners:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycbofo9
- or -
http://tinyurl.com/ycbofo9


Pond Pics...BTW which they ended up using in their catalog.

http://tinypic.com/r/jagia9/4
http://tinypic.com/r/10dwg8n/4
http://tinypic.com/r/309ikd2/4
http://tinypic.com/r/a1plyt/4
http://tinypic.com/r/1zg9wn9/4

wow! nice work

[Phisherman[_2_]]

On Fri, 2 Oct 2009 19:55:07 -0700 (PDT), Jason Carlton
wrote:

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.


I have a pond and it does not have a liner. We dug it out by hand,
hold about 6000 gallons, fed by springs and overflow pipe to a brook.
The overflow has been running about 15 years, about 2 gallons a
minute.

[aemeijers]

windcrest wrote:
On Oct 2, 9:55 pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

I built an outdoor pond, and never will do it again. Mine was only 4
feet deep, all the fish froze to death over the winter (Chicago) (it
should have been minimum 6 feet deep). I also regret not installing a
bottom drain return for the bio filter, as that would have kept the
bottom clean. If I did go 6 feet I would have had too much ground
water pushing the liner back up. Also if it is not on perfectly level
ground you'll get runoff into the pond and liner lift out, mine was on
a very slight slope which was problematic. All in all I learned a
lot, it was hard work and cost a lot of money to build. After built
it was a constant source of maintenance work and little jabs from the
wife worrying about a neighbor kid falling into it. Both of these
were not worth it. But it did look pretty with the lilypads and fake
koi (colored goldfish that look like koi but are 1/16th the price).

I would never have another pond in suburbia, maybe on a farm if I
could do it naturally by tapping a spring or artesian well and use a
clay bottom.

After 2 years I pulled the liner and filled it with black dirt, now
its a vegetable garden and I have bought myself back many months of
living doing other things I enjoy more.


I would tend to agree, based on ponds I have known. (Space and money for
one of my own being way above me on the food chain.) Sort of like
swimming pools and outdoor hot tubs- once the novelty wears off, they
are a PITA hole in the ground you pour money and time into. If I were
to hit the lotto and build a rural dream house, a water feature would be
appealing, but it would have to be something that was an adaptation of
existing waterflow on the the property (assuming the PTB allow modifying
existing waterflow in the area), and self-maintaining.

--
aem sends...

[Jim Elbrecht]

aemeijers wrote:


-snip-

I would tend to agree, based on ponds I have known. (Space and money for
one of my own being way above me on the food chain.) Sort of like
swimming pools and outdoor hot tubs- once the novelty wears off, they
are a PITA hole in the ground you pour money and time into.

Different stokes. . . I find the pond and hot tub to be very low
maintainence. [The pool wasn't bad if you kept plugging along at it
15 minutes every day- I don't spend that in a week on either the hot
tub or pond]

Jim

[Red Green]

"Master Betty" wrote in
:


"Red Green" wrote in message
...
Jason Carlton wrote in news:351d6fb5-851f-4154-
:

Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with
20 mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.


It was many many moons ago but I believe I used the 45. Last thing I
wanted was a leak, tear, sun deterioration, cold weather crack after
all that work. I was in northern VT. It was 4ft deep because in
winter it would freeze very deep at 20-30 below. Many critters found
their way to it, lived in the summer and hibernated in the winter at
the bottom. Had water plants in pots on a ledge below the water line.
They were dropped to the bottom in winter.

Most of my supplies I got mail order from a large supplier. Prices
then were much better than local. Link for liners:

http://preview.tinyurl.com/ycbofo9
- or -
http://tinyurl.com/ycbofo9


Pond Pics...BTW which they ended up using in their catalog.

http://tinypic.com/r/jagia9/4
http://tinypic.com/r/10dwg8n/4
http://tinypic.com/r/309ikd2/4
http://tinypic.com/r/a1plyt/4
http://tinypic.com/r/1zg9wn9/4

wow! nice work




Thanks for the ack,
Red...

[Rick Samuel[_2_]]

Yes, use 45 mil. We have a 1000 gal pond, 8 years old. This next spring
going to double or triple the size. Used 45 mil last time and will again.

PS. Private pond nice feature. There may be insurance/liability
implications if one 'builds' a pond and if someone were to wander in
(especially if property unfenced) and fall in. This similar to a
having an unfenced, locked gate access, private swimming pool on one's
property. If pond is/was a natural feature of the landscape the
situation might be different?

It's fenced, 6' stockade and I'm armed. Nobody wanders in.

To the OP, make it bigger than you "think" you want.

[benick[_2_]]

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
windcrest wrote:
On Oct 2, 9:55 pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

I built an outdoor pond, and never will do it again. Mine was only 4
feet deep, all the fish froze to death over the winter (Chicago) (it
should have been minimum 6 feet deep). I also regret not installing a
bottom drain return for the bio filter, as that would have kept the
bottom clean. If I did go 6 feet I would have had too much ground
water pushing the liner back up. Also if it is not on perfectly level
ground you'll get runoff into the pond and liner lift out, mine was on
a very slight slope which was problematic. All in all I learned a
lot, it was hard work and cost a lot of money to build. After built
it was a constant source of maintenance work and little jabs from the
wife worrying about a neighbor kid falling into it. Both of these
were not worth it. But it did look pretty with the lilypads and fake
koi (colored goldfish that look like koi but are 1/16th the price).

I would never have another pond in suburbia, maybe on a farm if I
could do it naturally by tapping a spring or artesian well and use a
clay bottom.

After 2 years I pulled the liner and filled it with black dirt, now
its a vegetable garden and I have bought myself back many months of
living doing other things I enjoy more.


I would tend to agree, based on ponds I have known. (Space and money for
one of my own being way above me on the food chain.) Sort of like swimming
pools and outdoor hot tubs- once the novelty wears off, they are a PITA
hole in the ground you pour money and time into. If I were to hit the
lotto and build a rural dream house, a water feature would be appealing,
but it would have to be something that was an adaptation of existing
waterflow on the the property (assuming the PTB allow modifying existing
waterflow in the area), and self-maintaining.

--
aem sends...

So very true...I know several people , my brother included that have had a
pool installed and then taken out...A ROYAL PITA for such a short season
here in Maine...3 months use at most....Especially if both hubby and wife
both work..A house I was just recently doing drywall at was having their
pond and waterfall removed...They were tired of constantly screwing with
it...He said they just get it looking good and then it's time to close it
down for the winter..LOL ...

If I had my way I would pave the whole damn yard with asphalt so I could
have my weekends back...I'll be damned if I would add a pond , pool or hot
tub to my honey do list...LOL...Maybe AFTER retirement when I'm living in
Florida...LOL...

[aemeijers]

benick wrote:

"aemeijers" wrote in message
...
windcrest wrote:
On Oct 2, 9:55 pm, Jason Carlton wrote:
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

I built an outdoor pond, and never will do it again. Mine was only 4
feet deep, all the fish froze to death over the winter (Chicago) (it
should have been minimum 6 feet deep). I also regret not installing a
bottom drain return for the bio filter, as that would have kept the
bottom clean. If I did go 6 feet I would have had too much ground
water pushing the liner back up. Also if it is not on perfectly level
ground you'll get runoff into the pond and liner lift out, mine was on
a very slight slope which was problematic. All in all I learned a
lot, it was hard work and cost a lot of money to build. After built
it was a constant source of maintenance work and little jabs from the
wife worrying about a neighbor kid falling into it. Both of these
were not worth it. But it did look pretty with the lilypads and fake
koi (colored goldfish that look like koi but are 1/16th the price).

I would never have another pond in suburbia, maybe on a farm if I
could do it naturally by tapping a spring or artesian well and use a
clay bottom.

After 2 years I pulled the liner and filled it with black dirt, now
its a vegetable garden and I have bought myself back many months of
living doing other things I enjoy more.


I would tend to agree, based on ponds I have known. (Space and money
for one of my own being way above me on the food chain.) Sort of like
swimming pools and outdoor hot tubs- once the novelty wears off, they
are a PITA hole in the ground you pour money and time into. If I were
to hit the lotto and build a rural dream house, a water feature would
be appealing, but it would have to be something that was an adaptation
of existing waterflow on the the property (assuming the PTB allow
modifying existing waterflow in the area), and self-maintaining.

--
aem sends...

So very true...I know several people , my brother included that have had
a pool installed and then taken out...A ROYAL PITA for such a short
season here in Maine...3 months use at most....Especially if both hubby
and wife both work..A house I was just recently doing drywall at was
having their pond and waterfall removed...They were tired of constantly
screwing with it...He said they just get it looking good and then it's
time to close it down for the winter..LOL ...

If I had my way I would pave the whole damn yard with asphalt so I could
have my weekends back...I'll be damned if I would add a pond , pool or
hot tub to my honey do list...LOL...Maybe AFTER retirement when I'm
living in Florida...LOL...

But then you have to sweep the asphalt, kill the weeds in the cracks,
seal the cracks, and topcoat the damn thing. :^/

I could almost see having a pool if you had teenage daughters, and there
were few local rec areas. That way, all the kids are hanging around at
your house, and you can keep an eye on the horny young SOBs looking to
lead them astray. One family I know that used to have a pool ripped it
out after the last daughter got hitched and was out on her own.

But seriously, I do like green things, as long as I don't have to
maintain them much. My current neighbors hate my lazziez-fair (sp?)
lawn approach, but as long as it is green and holds the dirt down, I'm
happy. If I hit the lotto and build my dream house, it'll be in the
middle of semi-wooded 5 acres or so, someplace where they never heard of
snow and the temp never exceeds 90. I'd hire a guy with a bushhog to cut
a firebreak around the house and a clear zone along the driveway
(especially out by the road), and just ignore the rest of it.

--
aem sends....

[Doug Brown]

"Jason Carlton" wrote in message
...
Have any of you ever built an outdoor pond? I'm curious whether I
really need to use 45 mil pond liner, or can I save $$$ and go with 20
mil for about 30% less?

I'm in NC, if it matters.

I know I risk starting a war here but you don't have to use pond liner. 45
mil EPDM roofing material is the same thing. Make sure it is not treated
for mildew etc. but I used this in a pond for ~ 12 years with no ill
effects. If there is a commercial roofing company near you you can probably
buy left over material for a very good price.

[dss]

I'll second the EPDM roofing material idea. For the first 10 years, my
Minnesota pond (10' by 15' by 3') was lined with the thinner vinyl and
I was constantly fighting leaks in the last few years. I get 12 to 18
inches of ice on it each year and that's a tough environment for a
liner. The UV rays take a toll too. Two years ago I put in the heavy
roofing material and the fish or plants don't seem to mind it. I
expect it to last much longer. Ponds are not maintenance free, but I
really like the sound of the waterfalls and the light reflecting off
the water. Even the neighbors like it, although it shuts off at night.

There is a news group named rec.ponds.moderated that is a good source
for specific questions and information.

Bigger and thicker is better.

dss