Hi, I just had drilled a 145' well and installed submersible pump. It
has a temp water setup now (for construction) so I'm not completely
finished with my well system.

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even
the same drop pipe.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

--zeb

In article .com, wrote:
Hi, I just had drilled a 145' well and installed submersible pump. It
has a temp water setup now (for construction) so I'm not completely
finished with my well system.

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even
the same drop pipe.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

Easier and more practical to get a generator instead...

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jan 31, 8:52 am, wrote:
....
Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even the same drop pipe.

How, in your naive way, would you propose to do that?

I suppose it _could_ be engineered to coexist, but never seen it
done. As Doug says, simpler for short-term emergency/storm/etc.
solution is the gen-set which can provide the backup power for heat
and lights and food refrigeration at the same time.

I've not explored it, but in a similar vein have wondered if there
were any way to make one of the solar-powered small volume pumps
coexist--here, at least, would almost always be sufficient sun with
the exception of only day or two at a time at most and even then
unlikely to be so dark as to have no effect. Limited volume capacity,
of course, but for survivalist mode could possibly be adequate w/ some
preparation for storage.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

Might look to manufacturers of the pumps for possible solutions???

--
dpb

On Jan 31, 11:07 am, "dpb" wrote:
On Jan 31, 8:52 am, wrote:
...

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even the same drop pipe.

How, in your naive way, would you propose to do that?

First I would assume that water can be drawn thru the non-operating
sumersible pump. Then what you would need is a tee off the drop pipe
near the top: One branch for the normal water line, one branch for
the
pitcher pump. Then you would need some sort of magic check valve
on the pitcher pump branch that would allow suction from one side
(pitch pump) but disallow flow if there was pressure from the opposite
side
(submersible pump). Is that naive enough?

I suppose it _could_ be engineered to coexist, but never seen it
done. As Doug says, simpler for short-term emergency/storm/etc.
solution is the gen-set which can provide the backup power for heat
and lights and food refrigeration at the same time.

I've not explored it, but in a similar vein have wondered if there
were any way to make one of the solar-powered small volume pumps
coexist--here, at least, would almost always be sufficient sun with
the exception of only day or two at a time at most and even then
unlikely to be so dark as to have no effect. Limited volume capacity,
of course, but for survivalist mode could possibly be adequate w/ some
preparation for storage.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

Might look to manufacturers of the pumps for possible solutions???

--
dpb

On Jan 31, 6:52 am, wrote:
Hi, I just had drilled a 145' well and installed submersible pump. It
has a temp water setup now (for construction) so I'm not completely
finished with my well system.

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even
the same drop pipe.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

--zeb

Yes, -if- you can fit two pipes into the well casing (shouldn't be a
problem).

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction
pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft. There are
other mechanical pumps (lift pumps) that would work. More expensive
and more complicated but the only installation problem is fitting two
pipes down the well.

Yes, you could tee off the drop pipe near the top but the same 26 ft
max draw still applies. In reality, due to the need to suck the water
through the submersible pump you would lose some footage from that 26
ft.

Harry K

In article .com, "Harry K" wrote:

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction
pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft.

Theoretical maximum for a suction pump is actually 10.34 meters or 33.9 feet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

On Jan 31, 10:38 am, wrote:
On Jan 31, 11:07 am, "dpb" wrote: On Jan 31, 8:52 am, wrote:
...

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even the same drop pipe.

How, in your naive way, would you propose to do that?

First I would assume that water can be drawn thru the non-operating
sumersible pump. Then what you would need is a tee off the drop pipe
near the top: One branch for the normal water line, one branch for
the
pitcher pump. Then you would need some sort of magic check valve
on the pitcher pump branch that would allow suction from one side
(pitch pump) but disallow flow if there was pressure from the opposite
side
(submersible pump). Is that naive enough?
....

I think so... I asked more in a rhetorical way as I figured that
thought process would lead to a number of questions...

As someone else already noted, at 145-ft, one would assume the water
table is at the highest something like 80', far more likely 100' or
even deeper. I don't know of any such pump that has such lift so you
would have to rely on the standing head in the pump outlet pipe and
the footcheck valve to not let it drop below the pickup point. Then,
the assumption of any sizable volume being picked up around the pump
impellers and housing in the pump is not a very good one -- the
effectiveness of a pump relies on close tolerances there to provide
the outlet pressure and lift. Then, when the pump isn't running, the
above-mentioned check valve has to remain closed or the level will
drop slowly and when it is closed, there isn't a path at all from
below and it won't open w/o the pump head pushing it open -- in
essence the reverse of the check valve you need at the top. IOW, the
best you could possibly hope for imo is whatever standing water there
is from the top of the water column to the maximum depth of the manual
pump's lift and when this volume was exhausted you'd again be w/o
water until had power to recharge that volume.

On Jan 31, 2:10 pm, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .com, "Harry K" wrote:

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction
pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft.

Theoretical maximum for a suction pump is actually 10.34 meters or 33.9 feet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
..
If the OP is using a submersible pump it suggest a deepish well?
Surface pumps (especially if nice and snug in ones basement where
easier to get at them under any weather conditions), usually simpler
and cheaper to install and maintain as a single unit.
Also no need to run AC wiring down the pipe to the submersible etc.
Reminds of story here where a guy took a ground level suction pump
back twice as 'defective'. Finally it occurred to the supplier to ask
how deep was the well! "Oh about 30 feet was the reply". Not only 30
feet but well was also slightly downhill of the house adding another
four or five feet to the expected 'lift'! Duh.

On 31 Jan 2007 09:06:05 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote:

On Jan 31, 6:52 am, wrote:
Hi, I just had drilled a 145' well and installed submersible pump. It
has a temp water setup now (for construction) so I'm not completely
finished with my well system.

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even
the same drop pipe.

I just thought it would be a neat survival type thing to have a manual
pump. The Lehmans catalog has about a dozen to choose from.

--zeb

Yes, -if- you can fit two pipes into the well casing (shouldn't be a
problem).

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction
pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft. There are
other mechanical pumps (lift pumps) that would work. More expensive
and more complicated but the only installation problem is fitting two
pipes down the well.

Yes, you could tee off the drop pipe near the top but the same 26 ft
max draw still applies. In reality, due to the need to suck the water
through the submersible pump you would lose some footage from that 26
ft.


You could put a 'T' or a 'Y' and a check valve just above
the submersible. Then whenever you start sucking water from
above, the check valve opens and lets water in, but when
the electric pump pushes, water is forced up the shaft.

How do you keep the electric pump from driving water
through the pitcher pump? You'd need some sort
of manual valve for that end.

I've stuck a sketch at www.goedjn.com/sketch/dualpump.gif

(presemumably, the pump assembly has it's own check valve)

--Goedjn

On Jan 31, 9:15 am, "dpb" wrote:
On Jan 31, 10:38 am, wrote:



On Jan 31, 11:07 am, "dpb" wrote: On Jan 31, 8:52 am, wrote:
...

Is there a way for a manual pitcher pump and a submersible pump to use
the same casing? I asked my well driller and he said he doesn't know
how to do that. In my own naive way I would think the pitcher pump
could use even the same drop pipe.

How, in your naive way, would you propose to do that?

First I would assume that water can be drawn thru the non-operating
sumersible pump. Then what you would need is a tee off the drop pipe
near the top: One branch for the normal water line, one branch for
the
pitcher pump. Then you would need some sort of magic check valve
on the pitcher pump branch that would allow suction from one side
(pitch pump) but disallow flow if there was pressure from the opposite
side
(submersible pump). Is that naive enough?

...

I think so... I asked more in a rhetorical way as I figured that
thought process would lead to a number of questions...

As someone else already noted, at 145-ft, one would assume the water
table is at the highest something like 80', far more likely 100' or
even deeper. I don't know of any such pump that has such lift so you
would have to rely on the standing head in the pump outlet pipe and
the footcheck valve to not let it drop below the pickup point. Then,
the assumption of any sizable volume being picked up around the pump
impellers and housing in the pump is not a very good one -- the
effectiveness of a pump relies on close tolerances there to provide
the outlet pressure and lift. Then, when the pump isn't running, the
above-mentioned check valve has to remain closed or the level will
drop slowly and when it is closed, there isn't a path at all from
below and it won't open w/o the pump head pushing it open -- in
essence the reverse of the check valve you need at the top. IOW, the
best you could possibly hope for imo is whatever standing water there
is from the top of the water column to the maximum depth of the manual
pump's lift and when this volume was exhausted you'd again be w/o
water until had power to recharge that volume.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

Nope.

1. The suction pump will suck the footvalve open - it opens when
pressure on the outlet side is less than that on the other.

2. A suction pump working on a pipe 80 ft long (for example) will
only exhaust the top about 26 ft (at sea level). In reality, it
probably won't do more than pump a cup full or two before sucking a
vacuum.

No 'suction' pump will draw water from over 26' (sea level) above the
static water level no matter how it is hooked up.

Harry K

On Jan 31, 9:10 am, (Doug Miller) wrote:
In article .com, "Harry K" wrote:

The next thing is depth to water level. A pitcher pump is a suction
pump and you can only suck water about a max of 26 ft.

Theoretical maximum for a suction pump is actually 10.34 meters or 33.9 feet.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

Correct but that is the theoretical. The practical due to pipe
friction, seal loss, etc. is about 26' at sea level.

Harry K

writes:

Yes, thanks for the picture, that's what I was thinking of.
But what I've learned here is that my well is simply too
deep (150') for any kind of manually operated pump, right?

Not exactly. No pump, manual or power, with the pumping mechanism on
the surface can lift water more than 25-30 feet, because it depends on
atmospheric pressure to do the lifting. But if the mechanism is down
below water level in the well casing, this limit doesn't apply. That's
how submersible pumps work (impeller is below water level) and jet pumps
(the venturi that does the actual pumping is down in the well).

So you *could* build a manually-operated pump that was 150' high, with
the operating handle at the top, the piston and valves at the bottom,
and the pipe plus a long rod coupling the handle to the piston. On the
other hand, lifting water 150' takes a lot more force than lifting it 10
or 20', so you won't enjoy operating such a pump by hand.

Dave

"Dave Martindale" wrote in message
...
writes:

Yes, thanks for the picture, that's what I was thinking of.
But what I've learned here is that my well is simply too
deep (150') for any kind of manually operated pump, right?

Not exactly. No pump, manual or power, with the pumping mechanism on
the surface can lift water more than 25-30 feet, because it depends on
atmospheric pressure to do the lifting. But if the mechanism is down
below water level in the well casing, this limit doesn't apply. That's
how submersible pumps work (impeller is below water level) and jet pumps
(the venturi that does the actual pumping is down in the well).

So you *could* build a manually-operated pump that was 150' high, with
the operating handle at the top, the piston and valves at the bottom,
and the pipe plus a long rod coupling the handle to the piston. On the
other hand, lifting water 150' takes a lot more force than lifting it 10
or 20', so you won't enjoy operating such a pump by hand.

Dave
Such deep well "force" pumps have actually existed for probably 100 years or
more. They have been operated by hand levers or mechanical "pump jacks"
worked by motors or windmills.

Don Young

On Thu, 1 Feb 2007 21:49:26 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

writes:

Yes, thanks for the picture, that's what I was thinking of.
But what I've learned here is that my well is simply too
deep (150') for any kind of manually operated pump, right?

Not exactly. No pump, manual or power, with the pumping mechanism on
the surface can lift water more than 25-30 feet, because it depends on
atmospheric pressure to do the lifting. But if the mechanism is down
below water level in the well casing, this limit doesn't apply. That's
how submersible pumps work (impeller is below water level) and jet pumps
(the venturi that does the actual pumping is down in the well).

So you *could* build a manually-operated pump that was 150' high, with
the operating handle at the top, the piston and valves at the bottom,
and the pipe plus a long rod coupling the handle to the piston. On the
other hand, lifting water 150' takes a lot more force than lifting it 10
or 20', so you won't enjoy operating such a pump by hand.

Dave

With a typical 1 7/8" working barrel, each foot of water column lifted
will weigh about 1.2 pounds. 100 foot depth to standing water
will require lifting 120#.

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

"Don Young" writes:

Such deep well "force" pumps have actually existed for probably 100 years or
more. They have been operated by hand levers or mechanical "pump jacks"
worked by motors or windmills.

Or steam engines. I think the original Cornish beam engines operated
pumps deep in the coal mines in basically this way.

Dave

Andy Asberry writes:

With a typical 1 7/8" working barrel, each foot of water column lifted
will weigh about 1.2 pounds. 100 foot depth to standing water
will require lifting 120#.

That's before any mechanical leverage applied at the handle. Also, the
piston diameter might not be the same as the pipe diameter - the max
size depends on the well casing. The force depends on piston diameter,
not water column diameter.

But no matter how you arrange the mechanism, lifting a certain volume of
water 150 feet will require at least 5 times the mechanical work
required to lift the same volume 30 feet. That was my point.

Dave

On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:38:58 +0000 (UTC), (Dave
Martindale) wrote:

Andy Asberry writes:

With a typical 1 7/8" working barrel, each foot of water column lifted
will weigh about 1.2 pounds. 100 foot depth to standing water
will require lifting 120#.

That's before any mechanical leverage applied at the handle. Also, the
piston diameter might not be the same as the pipe diameter - the max
size depends on the well casing. The force depends on piston diameter,
not water column diameter.

But no matter how you arrange the mechanism, lifting a certain volume of
water 150 feet will require at least 5 times the mechanical work
required to lift the same volume 30 feet. That was my point.

Dave
Actually Dave, I was agreeing with you. I was simply pointing out that
a column of water can quickly get heavy.

And for those who may not know, a working barrel is the cylinder. The
working valve is the piston. And Dave is correct, the piston area
determines the water column lifted.

It is common to attach a submersible pump to the bottom of the working
barrel and push water through it and the valves. Especially on
windmills when the wind doesn't blow. Only one pipe needed. And yes,
the rod pump will pull water through the submersible.

The son of a windmill man.

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas-----

On Feb 3, 11:20 am, Andy Asberry wrote:
On Fri, 2 Feb 2007 22:38:58 +0000 (UTC), (Dave





Martindale) wrote:
Andy Asberry writes:

With a typical 1 7/8" working barrel, each foot of water column lifted
will weigh about 1.2 pounds. 100 foot depth to standing water
will require lifting 120#.

That's before any mechanical leverage applied at the handle. Also, the
piston diameter might not be the same as the pipe diameter - the max
size depends on the well casing. The force depends on piston diameter,
not water column diameter.

But no matter how you arrange the mechanism, lifting a certain volume of
water 150 feet will require at least 5 times the mechanical work
required to lift the same volume 30 feet. That was my point.

Dave

Actually Dave, I was agreeing with you. I was simply pointing out that
a column of water can quickly get heavy.

And for those who may not know, a working barrel is the cylinder. The
working valve is the piston. And Dave is correct, the piston area
determines the water column lifted.

It is common to attach a submersible pump to the bottom of the working
barrel and push water through it and the valves. Especially on
windmills when the wind doesn't blow. Only one pipe needed. And yes,
the rod pump will pull water through the submersible.

The son of a windmill man.

--Andy Asberry--
------Texas------ Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

And to add a bit to that. The column of water that you are lifting is
only that from the surface of the water to the top. The pump can be
50 ft under the surface and none of that 50 ft adds anything to the
effort....well, I suppose 'inertia' might add a bit.

Harry K