[Gary KW4Z]

My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself. I'm thinking about actualy including two of them,
one for bathrooms and one for Kitchen and Laundry demands but not sure on
the total number to have yet.

I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water heaters comes from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put the most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your help and
input.

[DerbyDad03]

Along with reading the info you will get in response to your current
question in this group, may I suggest you perform a Google Groups
search on the subject. This question has been discused in
alt.home.repair, alt.building.construction, misc.consumers.house,
misc.consumers.frugal-living and many other groups. There is a lot of
information from various sources available in these groups.

Go to http://groups.google.com/ and enter your query.

Good Luck!

Gary KW4Z wrote:
My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself. I'm thinking about actualy including two of them,
one for bathrooms and one for Kitchen and Laundry demands but not sure on
the total number to have yet.

I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water heaters comes from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put the most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your help and
input.

[[email protected]]

your far better off to go with 2 standard larger tanks.

are you trying to get endlkess hot water? or more concerned with saving
a little money on energy?

2 tankless will require large gas service and remember a power failure
probably means no hot water

standard tanks even forced thru wall vents have enough hot water stored
for a couple showers

[NuWaveDave]

"Gary KW4Z" wrote in message
...
I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water heaters comes
from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put the
most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most
trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your help and
input.


At what elevation are you? It's been recommended to me that a tankless
water heater loses considerable efficiency at higher altitudes.
--
NuWave Dave in Houston

[Rich]

NuWaveDave wrote:
"Gary KW4Z" wrote in message
...
I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water
heaters comes from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put
the most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most
trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your
help and input.


At what elevation are you? It's been recommended to me that a
tankless water heater loses considerable efficiency at higher
altitudes.

I have the Bosch and would recommend it. It has a built in ignition system
that runs by the water turning a wheel to create the spark so it will even
work when the electric fails. I bought the smaller 1 use at a time unit but
for a family of 3 or more I would recommend the larger unit. But for me the
1 use is just fine. It installed easily (by myself) and has worked
flawlessly for 3 months that I have had it.

Rich

[# Fred #]

wrote in message
ups.com...
your far better off to go with 2 standard larger tanks.

are you trying to get endlkess hot water? or more concerned with saving
a little money on energy?

2 tankless will require large gas service and remember a power failure
probably means no hot water

standard tanks even forced thru wall vents have enough hot water stored
for a couple showers


If I understand correctly, one correctly sized tankless could supply enough
hot water for all the appliances plus showers and baths at the same time. As
for the electric outages, a UPS - uninterruptible power supply, just for the
controls - should take care of that.

My concern is the reliability, and I hear some of the tankless heaters are
not good. I've been using hot water dispensers for years and those tanks
goes out about 5 years (something always goes out in about 5 years) and I
just couldn't justify replacing a tankless every 5 or even 10 years. Hot
water heater: $500, Tankless: $3,000. Tankless has to save a lot of energy
to justify the extra cost. Anyone know what the payback is for tankless?

[Bob Dozier]

I had a Noritz N-069M http://www.noritz.com/n069.html in my newly
constructed
home of about 2500 sqft with 3 1/2 baths. I love it! With no circulation
pump
at all, most hot water locations get hot water within a minute. The only
real
wait time for hot water is the master shower, it takes about 2 minutes. But
the
jetted tub just a few feet from the master shower gets hot water in about 30
seconds.
More water volume to the tub vs. the shower head really cranks up the
heater.
I'm in west Texas with very hard water - it is highly recommended that you
have
a water softner in place in hard water conditions.

Give Noritz a pre-sales call, they were very helpful when I spoke to them.
I considered zoning two units, but the sales guy conviced me the N-069M
would be
sufficient, but suggested that if you ever needed to, you could simply add a
second unit. They are designed to work in tandem with a connector cable.

....Bob

[[email protected]]

Gary KW4Z wrote:
My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself.

1) Demand- 2 shower heads, 8 body washers in one shower and trying to
fill a whirlpool ain't going to cut it.
2) Location- some one in the northern part of the country where service
water comes in @ 40 degrees 4-6 months out of the year is a lot
different from someone in the south where service water is seldom under
70 degrees.

Run the numbers and you'll be fine, don't believe what someone tells
you.

kenny b

[[email protected]]

If I understand correctly, one correctly sized tankless could supply enough
hot water for all the appliances plus showers and baths at the same time. As
for the electric outages, a UPS - uninterruptible power supply, just for the
controls - should take care of that.

My concern is the reliability, and I hear some of the tankless heaters are
not good. I've been using hot water dispensers for years and those tanks
goes out about 5 years (something always goes out in about 5 years) and I
just couldn't justify replacing a tankless every 5 or even 10 years. Hot
water heater: $500, Tankless: $3,000. Tankless has to save a lot of energy
to justify the extra cost. Anyone know what the payback is for tankless?

the payback period exceeds the expected life of the unit, say 10 years
thats the longest warranty on a tankless. any companies locally for
service?

so for 500 bucks you can get a standard tank with a 12 year warranty.
you would have to save more than 2500 bucks before saving a dime in
energy. check the energy guide labels of tanks thats probably the
entire operating cost of a regular tank. mine says 250 bucks a year,
times 10 years wheres the savings?

worse assuming your tank in in a heated part of the home the wasted
energy in the heating season helps heat your home so its not wasted at
all....... for the heating season. true its a loser for AC

new regular tanks are actually very efficent, you can get higfher btu
models and larger tanks for never run out showers if you want. my 50
gallong 75,000 btu is near that, next tank will be 75 gallons, the 50
barely fit my existing space.... new furnace and more space.

think of another thing regular tanks are actually very reliable, other
than spring a leak at end of life few have other troubles and are a
bargain at 500 bucks.

you could likely save a few hundered a year in heating costs for your
new home by doubling wall thickness and upgraded insulation...... at
say 30 grand extra.

thats not a good deal either

[7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION 7 BOWLS 7 TRUMPETS 7 SEALS]

I don't even need to research to know: DON'T DO IT!


DerbyDad03 wrote:
Along with reading the info you will get in response to your current
question in this group, may I suggest you perform a Google Groups
search on the subject. This question has been discused in
alt.home.repair, alt.building.construction, misc.consumers.house,
misc.consumers.frugal-living and many other groups. There is a lot of
information from various sources available in these groups.

Go to http://groups.google.com/ and enter your query.

Good Luck!

Gary KW4Z wrote:
My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself. I'm thinking about actualy including two of them,
one for bathrooms and one for Kitchen and Laundry demands but not sure on
the total number to have yet.

I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water heaters comes from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put the most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your help and
input.

[7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION 7 BOWLS 7 TRUMPETS 7 SEALS]

Three months?

You are kidding, aren't you?


Rich wrote:
NuWaveDave wrote:
"Gary KW4Z" wrote in message
...
I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water
heaters comes from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put
the most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most
trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your
help and input.


At what elevation are you? It's been recommended to me that a
tankless water heater loses considerable efficiency at higher
altitudes.

I have the Bosch and would recommend it. It has a built in ignition system
that runs by the water turning a wheel to create the spark so it will even
work when the electric fails. I bought the smaller 1 use at a time unit but
for a family of 3 or more I would recommend the larger unit. But for me the
1 use is just fine. It installed easily (by myself) and has worked
flawlessly for 3 months that I have had it.

Rich

[7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION 7 BOWLS 7 TRUMPETS 7 SEALS]

I know the payback: there is none.


# Fred # wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
your far better off to go with 2 standard larger tanks.

are you trying to get endlkess hot water? or more concerned with saving
a little money on energy?

2 tankless will require large gas service and remember a power failure
probably means no hot water

standard tanks even forced thru wall vents have enough hot water stored
for a couple showers


If I understand correctly, one correctly sized tankless could supply enough
hot water for all the appliances plus showers and baths at the same time. As
for the electric outages, a UPS - uninterruptible power supply, just for the
controls - should take care of that.

My concern is the reliability, and I hear some of the tankless heaters are
not good. I've been using hot water dispensers for years and those tanks
goes out about 5 years (something always goes out in about 5 years) and I
just couldn't justify replacing a tankless every 5 or even 10 years. Hot
water heater: $500, Tankless: $3,000. Tankless has to save a lot of energy
to justify the extra cost. Anyone know what the payback is for tankless?

[7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION 7 BOWLS 7 TRUMPETS 7 SEALS]

Yes, don't believe anything you hear.

Especially, don't believe this.



wrote:
Gary KW4Z wrote:
My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself.

1) Demand- 2 shower heads, 8 body washers in one shower and trying to
fill a whirlpool ain't going to cut it.
2) Location- some one in the northern part of the country where service
water comes in @ 40 degrees 4-6 months out of the year is a lot
different from someone in the south where service water is seldom under
70 degrees.

Run the numbers and you'll be fine, don't believe what someone tells
you.

kenny b

[Dan_Musicant]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 09:11:51 -0600, "Bob Dozier"
wrote:

:I had a Noritz N-069M http://www.noritz.com/n069.html in my newly
:constructed
:home of about 2500 sqft with 3 1/2 baths. I love it! With no circulation
ump
:at all, most hot water locations get hot water within a minute. The only
:real
:wait time for hot water is the master shower, it takes about 2 minutes. But
:the
:jetted tub just a few feet from the master shower gets hot water in about 30
:seconds.
:More water volume to the tub vs. the shower head really cranks up the
:heater.
:I'm in west Texas with very hard water - it is highly recommended that you
:have
:a water softner in place in hard water conditions.
:
:Give Noritz a pre-sales call, they were very helpful when I spoke to them.
:I considered zoning two units, but the sales guy conviced me the N-069M
:would be
:sufficient, but suggested that if you ever needed to, you could simply add a
:second unit. They are designed to work in tandem with a connector cable.
:
:...Bob

I have the same unit: Model N-069M-OD. It includes the remote control
unit, which I use on a daily basis. I set the temperature somewhere
between 110 and 120 depending on the weather when I'm going to take a
shower and leave it at the lowest setting (100 degrees) for sink stuff
(the rest of the time, except laundry). It cost $4000 including
professional installation. It was installed by virtue of a city
sponsored program, so it didn't cost me a cent. Part of why they did it
was to solve the problem of how to route a vent for my dryer. Putting
the water heater outside (which is how these are installed) resolved
that problem. The water heater it replaced was a standard 40 gallon gas
tank heater. I would never have had the idea of going tankless if the
rep hadn't suggested it, and I wasn't going to refuse!

It works OK. I realize that at this point I'm on my own and I just hope
it lasts a real long time because I don't presently like the idea of
spending big bucks to fix or replace it.

I have a question about it myself, being how it deals with changes in
demand. Obviously as flow of hot water increases or decreases the unit
has to respond by decreasing or increasing the gas flame so that the
water comes out at the appropriate temperature. I wonder if _overusing_
this will cause something to go bad. IOW, is it better to leave the flow
when washing dishes in the sink at one flow rate or is it OK to keep
changing the flow rate like I always did with my tank water heater.

The responses in this thread already taught me one thing: I think I need
a UPS if I don't want to do without hot water in the event of a power
failure. I guess it's no big deal, actually. Power failures, at least
ones that last longer than a few seconds, are pretty rare here. Being
without power would be a much bigger inconvenience than being without
hot water. And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.

Dan

[Rich]

7 LAMPSTICKS 7 FEASTS 7 AGES OF DISPENSATION 7 BOWLS 7 TRUMPETS 7 SEALS
wrote:

And an earlier quote from this know it all:

Yes, don't believe anything you hear.

Especially, don't believe this.

I know the payback: there is none.



I like the depth of knowledge that you expound on this thread but I do like
your quoted statements! Now go away and bother some other group with your
depth of knowledge please! Maybe alt.youdontknowwhatiknow.andicanproveit


Rich





# Fred # wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...
your far better off to go with 2 standard larger tanks.

are you trying to get endlkess hot water? or more concerned with
saving a little money on energy?

2 tankless will require large gas service and remember a power
failure probably means no hot water

standard tanks even forced thru wall vents have enough hot water
stored for a couple showers


If I understand correctly, one correctly sized tankless could supply
enough hot water for all the appliances plus showers and baths at
the same time. As for the electric outages, a UPS - uninterruptible
power supply, just for the controls - should take care of that.

My concern is the reliability, and I hear some of the tankless
heaters are not good. I've been using hot water dispensers for years
and those tanks goes out about 5 years (something always goes out in
about 5 years) and I just couldn't justify replacing a tankless
every 5 or even 10 years. Hot water heater: $500, Tankless: $3,000.
Tankless has to save a lot of energy to justify the extra cost.
Anyone know what the payback is for tankless?

[Bob Dozier]

Boy, created quite a stir of replies! I have some comments - for what
they're
worth....

- I've seen some posts about payout. Who cares about payout? If you can
afford
one, get one. In my opinion, it uses gas only when you turn on the hot
water
it will be hot as long as you wish. In a 3 1/2 bath house, when you have
your kids and grandkids visiting, you will ALWAYS have hot water. If you
deplete
a 50 gal tank heater, it's gone and you will have to wait until the entire
tank heats up, however long that takes - been there, done that, not
pleasant.

- I've also seen some posts about price. Find a reputable dealer and/or
plumber
and you can get one for about half of the prices I've seen posted -
installed!
Just do an Ebay search for N-069M. Although you do need to have a plumber
install the unit for warranty purposes, it really does not take rocket
science
to correctly size or install the unit. Just make sure you have the
properly
sized gas line supply as well.

I am very pleased with mine for over 6 months. I'll see how long it will
last,
but so far, I will install another one in the next house I build.

Again, just my 2 cents, no flames please. ...Bob

"Gary KW4Z" wrote in message
...
My plans are to specify a (Gas) Tankless Hot Water Heater in our new home
for my wife and myself. I'm thinking about actualy including two of them,
one for bathrooms and one for Kitchen and Laundry demands but not sure on
the total number to have yet.

I've looked at Takagi, Rinnai, Noritz, Paloma, Bosch, and Rheem. Like
everything else most familiarity with Tankless hot water heaters comes
from
advertisements on the radio and TV and of those Rinnai seems to put the
most
money in that area.

Of you who have a tankless hot water heater which ones are the most
trouble
free and which would you recommend? Thanks, in advance, for your help and
input.

[# Fred #]

And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.

Dan

Should be cheap as not much power required to control the gas fired unit. Go
to any office or computer store and get one suitable for you unit - should
be under $100. You need to replace the UPS battery once every few years.

[[email protected]]

# Fred # wrote:
And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.

Dan

Should be cheap as not much power required to control the gas fired unit. Go
to any office or computer store and get one suitable for you unit - should
be under $100. You need to replace the UPS battery once every few years.

ahh check the current use of the tankless, if it uses a fan for exhaust
you may need a really large UPS.

did you knpow there are commercial size regular hot water tanks, they
can supply a hotel continiously so one home would be easy.. kinda
pricey but available

In article ,
says...

The responses in this thread already taught me one thing: I think I need
a UPS if I don't want to do without hot water in the event of a power
failure. I guess it's no big deal, actually. Power failures, at least
ones that last longer than a few seconds, are pretty rare here. Being
without power would be a much bigger inconvenience than being without
hot water. And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.

My Takagi draws little enough current that if the power is out, I can
run it off the pocket-sized power inverter I keep in my car. No added
cost for that, I already had the inverter anyway.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article .com,
says...

# Fred # wrote:
And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.

Dan

Should be cheap as not much power required to control the gas fired unit. Go
to any office or computer store and get one suitable for you unit - should
be under $100. You need to replace the UPS battery once every few years.

ahh check the current use of the tankless, if it uses a fan for exhaust
you may need a really large UPS.

My Takagi draws less than an amp maximum, and that's briefly while the
blower is clearing the exhaust after the burner shuts off; most of the
time it's much lower draw. Any decent UPS can handle 120W loads.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

In article ,
says...

It works OK. I realize that at this point I'm on my own and I just hope
it lasts a real long time because I don't presently like the idea of
spending big bucks to fix or replace it.


Remember that when you do eventually need to replace it, you probably
won't be re-doing the gas plumbing, wiring, or potable water plumbing
for it. You'll just remove the old unit and install a new one.

Your N-069M-OD sells for under $1,000 on-line. My Takagi is under $900
these days. Replacement is simple enough you can do it yourself if
local code allows. (OK, be honest, how many people take out the
required permits to replace their tank water heaters?)

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

[[email protected]]

My Takagi draws little enough current that if the power is out, I can
run it off the pocket-sized power inverter I keep in my car. No added
cost for that, I already had the inverter anyway.

--
is Joshua Putnam

Odd the Takagi website doesnt list current consumption,'

In any case those who vent up a chimney are probably low power users in
comparison with direct vent models that must use a blower & motor for
exhaustion of course chimney type often need chimney upgrades because
the high BTU models are perhaps 3 times the BTU of a average forced air
furnace.

this makes me wonder about that big flue exhausting heated home air
24/7 all winter long... humm I wonder the same about my standard hot
water tank and furnace, must be like leaving a big window open
permanetely.

wonder if anyone has ever done studies of flue heat losses?

Because oif this awhile ago I had decided to go with forced vent
standard high BTU tank.....

[CptDondo]

wrote:


this makes me wonder about that big flue exhausting heated home air
24/7 all winter long... humm I wonder the same about my standard hot
water tank and furnace, must be like leaving a big window open
permanetely.

wonder if anyone has ever done studies of flue heat losses?

Don't most current building codes require outside combustion air these days?

--Yan

[[email protected]]

CptDondo wrote:
wrote:


this makes me wonder about that big flue exhausting heated home air
24/7 all winter long... humm I wonder the same about my standard hot
water tank and furnace, must be like leaving a big window open
permanetely.

wonder if anyone has ever done studies of flue heat losses?

Don't most current building codes require outside combustion air these days?

--Yan

many furnaces and most standard hot water tanks use room air, a bad
idea if you ask me.

[Gary KW4Z]

Thank you to everyone that contributed on each board. While I haven't
totally made up my mind about what I will do, and I have plenty of time to
do that thankfully, I am leaning (due in part to opinions on these
newsgroups) to staying traditional, with a 50 gallon high efficiency, Gas,
Hot Water Heater with a long warranty. Being that there is mostly the wife
and myself I think that will due us even when we have the grandchildren
over.

Again thank you for each of your input and I will continue to follow this
thread and also do research into past question regarding tankless water
heaters. Could be by the time I actually build things will change again but
for now I'm changing my mind, back to the Gas Tank model. The reason is
that even with the cost savings of the tankless I'm very concerned that they
will not hold up over as long a time as tanks have proven to last and
apparently the manufacturers don't necessarily think they will either by the
warranty length they assign to them so that's my reasoning for changing my
mind.

[[email protected]]

Theres no harm in getting a 75 or even 100 gallon high BTU tank.
regular tanks are about 40,000 BTU my high output is 75,000 BTU 50
gallons. thats a lot of water. by the time i am done getting a shower,
dressed and go downstairs with the laundry the tanks burners are
shutting off, and my shower has the flow restrictor removed

[JimR]

"Gary KW4Z" wrote in message
...
Thank you to everyone that contributed on each board. While I haven't
totally made up my mind about what I will do, and I have plenty of time to
do that thankfully, I am leaning (due in part to opinions on these
newsgroups) to staying traditional, with a 50 gallon high efficiency, Gas,
Hot Water Heater with a long warranty.
[snip]

Having experience with both tankless and conventional, I much prefer
conventional. Consider this:

We have a standard large tanked water heater which serves kitchen, laundry
and two bathrooms. When we renovated the back half of the house we added a
small cabinet in the new hobby room with a second water heater tank inside
which serves only the adjacent master bathroom. This gives us hot water
within seconds.

( We also did a few other unconventional things such as adding an outdoor
sink and shower so that you can clean up and shower after working in the
garden or coming in from fishing. Since the "utilities" side of the house
(with the shower, plus nearby well pump, central air conditioners, etc.) is
behind a 6' concrete block and tile wall privacy is not a problem.)

With this experience, during any future renovation I'd consider another hot
water tank, perhaps a low-boy unit or attic unit, for almost-instant hot
water for one or more of the other bedroom suites -- Regards --

In article . com,
says...
My Takagi draws little enough current that if the power is out, I can
run it off the pocket-sized power inverter I keep in my car. No added
cost for that, I already had the inverter anyway.

--
is Joshua Putnam

Odd the Takagi website doesnt list current consumption,'

It's in the PDF manual, towards the end.

this makes me wonder about that big flue exhausting heated home air
24/7 all winter long... humm I wonder the same about my standard hot
water tank and furnace, must be like leaving a big window open
permanetely.

Haven't done a formal study of it, but while testing for drafts I blew
smoke around our water heater on a cold day, didn't have any noticeable
convection up the flue. But our flue is mostly horizontal, definitely
needs the blower.

Our long-range plan is to convert it to use outdoor combustion air once
we get around to the finished cabinetry in the pantry where it sits.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

[Dan_Musicant]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:42:44 -0800, wrote:

:In article .com,
says...
:
: # Fred # wrote:
: And I guess a UPS that would supply power for more than 1/2
: hour or so is going to be costly. So's a generator.
:
: Dan
:
: Should be cheap as not much power required to control the gas fired unit. Go
: to any office or computer store and get one suitable for you unit - should
: be under $100. You need to replace the UPS battery once every few years.
:
: ahh check the current use of the tankless, if it uses a fan for exhaust
: you may need a really large UPS.
:
:My Takagi draws less than an amp maximum, and that's briefly while the
:blower is clearing the exhaust after the burner shuts off; most of the
:time it's much lower draw. Any decent UPS can handle 120W loads.

You know, I really don't think it's worth it to get a UPS just to insure
I have hot water if my power goes out. I'll be a lot more concerned
about the power and especially the food in my refrigerator going bad.
Hot water? Holy smokes, my ancestors had to build a fire to get it. I'm
not going to be such a pussy about it.

Dan

[Dan_Musicant]

On Thu, 4 Jan 2007 20:50:08 -0800, wrote:

:In article ,
says...
:
: It works OK. I realize that at this point I'm on my own and I just hope
: it lasts a real long time because I don't presently like the idea of
: spending big bucks to fix or replace it.
:
:
:Remember that when you do eventually need to replace it, you probably
:won't be re-doing the gas plumbing, wiring, or potable water plumbing
:for it. You'll just remove the old unit and install a new one.
:
:Your N-069M-OD sells for under $1,000 on-line. My Takagi is under $900
:these days. Replacement is simple enough you can do it yourself if
:local code allows. (OK, be honest, how many people take out the
:required permits to replace their tank water heaters?)

Good point. I suppose if I still live here and my Noritz goes bad I
might well opt for a similar tankless to replace it since the gas and
plumbing are all right there, and they were AFAIK professionally and
well-installed. To put in a tank water heater would be problematical
because it would have to stand away from the wall at least enough to
clear the dryer vent. The contractor who authorized all this told me I
couldn't do that because I would not be able to strap and support the
tank. This is earthquake country.

In article ,
says...

You know, I really don't think it's worth it to get a UPS just to insure
I have hot water if my power goes out. I'll be a lot more concerned
about the power and especially the food in my refrigerator going bad.

Frozen casseroles from the deep freeze will keep the fridge cold enough
that milk lasts for many days. Think of it as an icebox with edible
ice. Some of the frozen stuff is going to thaw anyway, might as well
put it to use.

Hot water? Holy smokes, my ancestors had to build a fire to get it. I'm
not going to be such a pussy about it.

While the house was jacked up getting a new foundation, we spent 6 weeks
with the gas disconnected. Boiling water on the stove for baths gets
old fast when you have twin toddlers.

--
is Joshua Putnam
http://www.phred.org/~josh/
Braze your own bicycle frames. See
http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html

[Dennis]

Not for nothing, but my 40 gal gas (spec grade) was installed when the house
was new in 1978 and is still going strong.

Tankless are really good for cabins and the like. Don't believe I would put
one in a new home unless it serves a single fixture located a long distance
from the water heater.

Just doesn't make any cents (don't forget to figure additional costs for
increased gas lines, larger meter, assoc. as well.)

so for 500 bucks you can get a standard tank with a 12 year warranty.
you would have to save more than 2500 bucks before saving a dime in
energy. check the energy guide labels of tanks thats probably the
entire operating cost of a regular tank. mine says 250 bucks a year,
times 10 years wheres the savings?

worse assuming your tank in in a heated part of the home the wasted
energy in the heating season helps heat your home so its not wasted at
all....... for the heating season. true its a loser for AC

new regular tanks are actually very efficent, you can get higfher btu
models and larger tanks for never run out showers if you want. my 50
gallong 75,000 btu is near that, next tank will be 75 gallons, the 50
barely fit my existing space.... new furnace and more space.

think of another thing regular tanks are actually very reliable, other
than spring a leak at end of life few have other troubles and are a
bargain at 500 bucks.

you could likely save a few hundered a year in heating costs for your
new home by doubling wall thickness and upgraded insulation...... at
say 30 grand extra.

thats not a good deal either

[Dennis]

Dan, there are straps made specifically to anchor water heaters not located
directly aganst a wall. In fact, most of the installations I've inspected
did not bear directly on the wall in back of the heater. In seismic D1 & 2,
you only need to strap in upper and lower 1/3 to withstand movement, and
there are many ways to accomplish this.

well-installed. To put in a tank water heater would be problematical
because it would have to stand away from the wall at least enough to
clear the dryer vent. The contractor who authorized all this told me I
couldn't do that because I would not be able to strap and support the
tank. This is earthquake country.

[[email protected]]

Dennis wrote:

Not for nothing, but my 40 gal gas (spec grade) was installed when the house
was new in 1978 and is still going strong.

We put in a Paloma PH6-DP in 1987, and have never made a repair
(although I bought a similar unit, for parts, for $50. about 15 years
ago- hard to find these old units). My local propane distributor has
one like it for their kitchen/ washrooms. We also cook with gas. Our
water pressure is about 20psi max (gravity system from a spring up the
hill) and this thing has always worked fine for us (family of 7 then,
3 now).The only thing I'd want different is the auto lighter- piezo or
"the little turbine" (Bosch), because of the gas- but the unit is on
the wall next to the toilet (in NW earthquake country- 2 shakes, no
problems), so it probably heats that space- a little.

Tankless are really good for cabins and the like. part of the home the wasted
energy in the heating season helps heat your home so its not wasted at
all....... for the heating season. true its a loser for AC

We do have a small place- around 1000sq'- and the space for a tank is
also an issue. When we heated and cooked with wood, I had a tank that
ran through the woodstove... and took all insulation off of it- using
it as a radiator, as well as a hot water tank. That setup, w/ a solar
water panel, would be my favored Luddite fallback mode...

you could likely save a few hundered a year in heating costs for your
new home by doubling wall thickness and upgraded insulation...... at
say 30 grand extra... thats not a good deal either

Amen to that... I'd favor going to radiant floor heating, if the house
is situated to take advantage of that... and, if I lived in horse 'n
dairy country, I'd go for the 250 sq' slab with pipes embedded, on the
downwind side of the house, upon which manure is piled, to fire the
heat exchanger in my own slab flooring... ^..^