I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?




Thank you.

On 8 Dec 2006 01:22:04 -0800, "redbrickhat"
wrote:

I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?


The only time I ran into insulation that you describe, it was very
brittle. If you plain to continue using it, you should not disturb it
anymore than you have to.

"redbrickhat" wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?




Thank you.


Its called loom wire. Most of it in the twenties used rubber also. It will
be very brittle and next to impossible to work with. The general rule is
"You touch it, you replace it."

Tom

Sometimes they ran a type of cloth covered cable inside of black pipe, and
early steel cable like "Sprague" had a waxy cloth sheath over the
conductors. The conductors themselves are probably covered with rubber and
more cloth, and as the others have said, move them as little as you can



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?




Thank you.

you sure its grounded? some idiot might have connected box to
neutral....... can you see a ground wire?

If it's connected to a steel conduit or cable it doesn't require a "ground
wire" to be grounded


wrote in message
oups.com...
you sure its grounded? some idiot might have connected box to
neutral....... can you see a ground wire?

redbrickhat wrote:
I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?




Thank you.

Sounds that ye old Knob and Tube stuff. I used to own a house that was
full of it. It looked like 18 gauge black cloth or paper wrapped
wires. The wires were run through ceramic tubes where they went
through a stud or joist and were suspended off of the wood surfaces
with ceramic blocks that were nailed down.

Sounds that ye old Knob and Tube stuff. I used to own a house that was
full of it. It looked like 18 gauge black cloth or paper wrapped
wires. The wires were run through ceramic tubes where they went
through a stud or joist and were suspended off of the wood surfaces
with ceramic blocks that were nailed down.

Yeah my hunch too, I asked about grounding since I helped a friend.
Turned out she had K&T and it APPEARED grounded

The trouble was a former owner connected grounds and neutrals together.
We found this opening a wall after a fire.On the outside a nice box
with 3 prong outlet. Buried in wall K&T grounds and neutrals tied
together.

The homes wiring was a patchwork quilt of bad stuff it was all replaced.

redbrickhat wrote:
I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?

Fray out some of the cloth. Hold a match or lighter under it. If it
just burns to ash, it's probably cotton. If it burns and melts to a
gooey mess, it's probably plastic. If it melts to a little glob, it's
probably fiberglass. If it gets orange or white hot without melting,
it's probably asbestos.
--
John

"redbrickhat" wrote in message
oups.com...

What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?

No. Rubber and cloth. By now it will probably have deteriorated and won't
take a small movement. You need to replace it with modern plastic wire if
you have permission.

The OP said that he lives in New York City where BX (armored cable) was
required in the 1920s (and still is today). Cloth covered wires with
armored sheathing is standard in older building in NYC. This is not knob
and tube. It is BX and it is grounded (although some may question whether
the armor provides an adequate ground.
--
Peace,
BobJ

wrote in message
ups.com...



Sounds that ye old Knob and Tube stuff. I used to own a house that was
full of it. It looked like 18 gauge black cloth or paper wrapped
wires. The wires were run through ceramic tubes where they went
through a stud or joist and were suspended off of the wood surfaces
with ceramic blocks that were nailed down.

Yeah my hunch too, I asked about grounding since I helped a friend.
Turned out she had K&T and it APPEARED grounded

The trouble was a former owner connected grounds and neutrals together.
We found this opening a wall after a fire.On the outside a nice box
with 3 prong outlet. Buried in wall K&T grounds and neutrals tied
together.

The homes wiring was a patchwork quilt of bad stuff it was all replaced.

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
The OP said that he lives in New York City where BX (armored cable) was
required in the 1920s (and still is today). Cloth covered wires with
armored sheathing is standard in older building in NYC. This is not knob
and tube. It is BX and it is grounded (although some may question whether
the armor provides an adequate ground.
--
Peace,
BobJ

wrote in message
ups.com...



Sounds that ye old Knob and Tube stuff. I used to own a house that was
full of it. It looked like 18 gauge black cloth or paper wrapped
wires. The wires were run through ceramic tubes where they went
through a stud or joist and were suspended off of the wood surfaces
with ceramic blocks that were nailed down.

Yeah my hunch too, I asked about grounding since I helped a friend.
Turned out she had K&T and it APPEARED grounded

The trouble was a former owner connected grounds and neutrals together.
We found this opening a wall after a fire.On the outside a nice box
with 3 prong outlet. Buried in wall K&T grounds and neutrals tied
together.

The homes wiring was a patchwork quilt of bad stuff it was all replaced.




So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks

It's safe to cut it even if it is asbestos. Just don't snort it up your
nose or eat it for 20 years in a row.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks

or just connect your fixtures to it, close it up and be done with it!!!


"John O'Flaherty" wrote in message
oups.com...

redbrickhat wrote:
I live in an old building (1920s) in New York City.


I recently opened up 2 electrical outlets that had been covered up for
at least 30 years. Behind the outlets were 2 wires covered in cloth
braid. At first I thought this type of cabling might be K&T, but a
voltage test showed that the box was grounded, so I guess the wiring is
metal conduit or armored cable.


What is the composition of the cloth braid of these old cables? The
cloth braid looked and felt like cotton, but could it have been
asbestos or another substance?

Fray out some of the cloth. Hold a match or lighter under it. If it
just burns to ash, it's probably cotton. If it burns and melts to a
gooey mess, it's probably plastic. If it melts to a little glob, it's
probably fiberglass. If it gets orange or white hot without melting,
it's probably asbestos.
--
John

Steve Barker LT wrote:
It's safe to cut it even if it is asbestos. Just don't snort it up your
nose or eat it for 20 years in a row.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks



I ask the question because I might have to remove a large portion of
the braided cloth to add a new receptacle.

So: did the old-style BX cables for residential apartments generally
use cotton braided cloth around their wires?

Was asbestos braided cloth used mainly for high-temperature
applications?


Thanks.

I think the point is that asbestos is not cyanide, You're not going to die
from occasional incidental contact


"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

Steve Barker LT wrote:
It's safe to cut it even if it is asbestos. Just don't snort it up your
nose or eat it for 20 years in a row.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks



I ask the question because I might have to remove a large portion of
the braided cloth to add a new receptacle.

So: did the old-style BX cables for residential apartments generally
use cotton braided cloth around their wires?

Was asbestos braided cloth used mainly for high-temperature
applications?


Thanks.

The best thing to do is just do what you have to do. And quit worrying
about the freakin asbestos. Like I said, you'd have to breathe the dust for
20 years before you MIGHT display symptoms 20 years after that.

--
Steve Barker


"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

Was asbestos braided cloth used mainly for high-temperature
applications?


Thanks.

Steve Barker LT wrote:
It's safe to cut it even if it is asbestos. Just don't snort it up your
nose or eat it for 20 years in a row.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks






I ask the question because I might have to cut a large amount of the
cloth braid to add a new receptacle.

So: did the old-style BX cables for residential homes generally use
cotton braided cloth around the wires?

Was asbestos braided cloth used only for high temperature applications?


Thanks.

I can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my
house appears to have a wrap of asbestos in it. After burning it (to
recycle the copper) in a very hot fire, there is what appears to be a white
ribbon spiraled around the copper. I can only assume it's asbestos put
there for pulling strength.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
s.com...

Steve Barker LT wrote:
It's safe to cut it even if it is asbestos. Just don't snort it up your
nose or eat it for 20 years in a row.

--
Steve Barker



"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

So if the cabling is 2-wire BX and the cloth braid is not asbestos,
would it be safe to cut some of the old braid off?


Thanks






I ask the question because I might have to cut a large amount of the
cloth braid to add a new receptacle.

So: did the old-style BX cables for residential homes generally use
cotton braided cloth around the wires?

Was asbestos braided cloth used only for high temperature applications?


Thanks.

"redbrickhat" wrote in message
ups.com...

I ask the question because I might have to remove a large portion of
the braided cloth to add a new receptacle.

So: did the old-style BX cables for residential apartments generally
use cotton braided cloth around their wires?

Was asbestos braided cloth used mainly for high-temperature
applications?

Yes, mainly in electric ranges and the like.

On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:28:30 -0600, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:

can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my

They had cloth romex? I thought the start of romex was after cloth
insulation.

house appears to have a wrap of asbestos in it. After burning it (to
recycle the copper) in a very hot fire, there is what appears to be a white
ribbon spiraled around the copper. I can only assume it's asbestos put
there for pulling strength.

Asbestos doesn't burn, aiui, so that makes sense that it's still t
here. I didn't know it had pulling strength, or tensile strength in
general (if there's a difference).

--
Steve Barker

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...

I can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my
house appears to have a wrap of asbestos in it. After burning it (to
recycle the copper) in a very hot fire, there is what appears to be a
white ribbon spiraled around the copper. I can only assume it's asbestos
put there for pulling strength.

I'd expect linen not asbestos.

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

The OP said that he lives in New York City where BX (armored cable) was
required in the 1920s (and still is today). Cloth covered wires with
armored sheathing is standard in older building in NYC. This is not knob
and tube. It is BX and it is grounded (although some may question whether
the armor provides an adequate ground.

Yep. Back in those days steel BX was intended to prevent vermin from
eating the wire insulation. A manufacturing flaw resulted in rusting
between the spirals of the armor. If used as an equipment grounding
conductor the impedence may very well be high enough that the fuse or
breaker won't trip upon a ground-fault, resulting in a possible fire as
the armor heats up. IMO, the OP would be better off installing a 2
wire receptacle or a GFCI receptacle.

Damn Volts your good, The stuff was made in General Electric's Sprague
plant. They took sheets of galvanized metal, cut them into strips, and wound
it over the conductors wrapped in the cotton sheath. The problem, as Volts
indicated, was that when they cut the sheets of metal into strips, the edges
were left with no galvanized coating, so they oxidized


"volts500" wrote in message
oups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:

The OP said that he lives in New York City where BX (armored cable) was
required in the 1920s (and still is today). Cloth covered wires with
armored sheathing is standard in older building in NYC. This is not knob
and tube. It is BX and it is grounded (although some may question
whether
the armor provides an adequate ground.

Yep. Back in those days steel BX was intended to prevent vermin from
eating the wire insulation. A manufacturing flaw resulted in rusting
between the spirals of the armor. If used as an equipment grounding
conductor the impedence may very well be high enough that the fuse or
breaker won't trip upon a ground-fault, resulting in a possible fire as
the armor heats up. IMO, the OP would be better off installing a 2
wire receptacle or a GFCI receptacle.

Steve Barker LT wrote:

I can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my
house appears to have a wrap of asbestos in it. After burning it (to
recycle the copper) in a very hot fire, there is what appears to be a white
ribbon spiraled around the copper. I can only assume it's asbestos put
there for pulling strength.

I don't think asbestos could contribute to pulling strength.

--
The e-mail address in our reply-to line is reversed in an attempt to
minimize spam. Our true address is of the form .

I was just guessing at the reason it was there.

--
Steve Barker



"mm" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:28:30 -0600, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:

can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my

They had cloth romex? I thought the start of romex was after cloth
insulation.

house appears to have a wrap of asbestos in it. After burning it (to
recycle the copper) in a very hot fire, there is what appears to be a
white
ribbon spiraled around the copper. I can only assume it's asbestos put
there for pulling strength.

Asbestos doesn't burn, aiui, so that makes sense that it's still t
here. I didn't know it had pulling strength, or tensile strength in
general (if there's a difference).

--
Steve Barker

mm wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:28:30 -0600, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:


can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my


They had cloth romex? I thought the start of romex was after cloth
insulation.



Can't speak for railphotonut, but the house I bought last year has a ton
of cloth "romex". The wire itself is insulated with a plastic like
material, possibly an early vinyl, definitely NOT rubber. It clings to
the copper conductor, and leaves a sticky coating on the wire after it
is stripped. Each conductor is wrapped with tar cloth braid, they are
bundled with a brown kraft paper "string" (think old grocery bag), a
wrap of paper, and another wrap of tar cloth. Where and when ever
possible, I am pulling new ROMEX into place using it as a pull tape. In
those instances where it isn't possible to pull it out, I handle it as
little as possible, though the insulation isn't brittle. It does make a
filthy mess no matter whether removing or reusing it. I believe it was
installed in the fifties, as some of it was plastered into the pink
flamingo bathroom walls. The only reason I know that is I had to
completely gut the bathroom for other reasons. Luckily I found it
without hitting it with a saw, drill, or nail... Some has a silver-blue
outer wrap, other has black. The internal cloth is all black in the
black, and color matched to the wire in the silver-blue. They both have
the white wire covered with white inner insulation.

I also have a lot of that old BX with the cloth wires. Thank goodness
the house was originally built in 1890, before electrification. All of
the upgrades were done later, so there isn't any knob and tube. My
grandmother's 1902 built house in Buffalo wasn't so lucky. Because of
the Pan-American Exposition in 1901, builders were doing K&T installs in
new houses even though electricity was still new and not widely
available. I was still removing K&T in the eighties, and I think I got
the last of it abandoned in 1989 when we built a new dormer and
completely split the upper apartment from the lower. Prior to that the
upper always included utilities even though there were two meters. After
that, the upper was no longer cross wired with downstairs, although
there were two outlets in the lower living room that no longer worked
after that. I just never got around to going in the crawl space and
rewiring those two, as I didn't want to disturb all the abandoned
asbestos steam heating pipes under there. Just goes to show that it is
sometimes better to be late to the game than to be an early adopter...

NM cable (Romex) was recognized in the 1926 NEC



"Husky" wrote in message
news
mm wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:28:30 -0600, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:


can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my


They had cloth romex? I thought the start of romex was after cloth
insulation.



Can't speak for railphotonut, but the house I bought last year has a ton
of cloth "romex". The wire itself is insulated with a plastic like
material, possibly an early vinyl, definitely NOT rubber. It clings to the
copper conductor, and leaves a sticky coating on the wire after it is
stripped. Each conductor is wrapped with tar cloth braid, they are bundled
with a brown kraft paper "string" (think old grocery bag), a wrap of
paper, and another wrap of tar cloth. Where and when ever possible, I am
pulling new ROMEX into place using it as a pull tape. In those instances
where it isn't possible to pull it out, I handle it as little as possible,
though the insulation isn't brittle. It does make a filthy mess no matter
whether removing or reusing it. I believe it was installed in the fifties,
as some of it was plastered into the pink flamingo bathroom walls. The
only reason I know that is I had to completely gut the bathroom for other
reasons. Luckily I found it without hitting it with a saw, drill, or
nail... Some has a silver-blue outer wrap, other has black. The internal
cloth is all black in the black, and color matched to the wire in the
silver-blue. They both have the white wire covered with white inner
insulation.

I also have a lot of that old BX with the cloth wires. Thank goodness the
house was originally built in 1890, before electrification. All of the
upgrades were done later, so there isn't any knob and tube. My
grandmother's 1902 built house in Buffalo wasn't so lucky. Because of the
Pan-American Exposition in 1901, builders were doing K&T installs in new
houses even though electricity was still new and not widely available. I
was still removing K&T in the eighties, and I think I got the last of it
abandoned in 1989 when we built a new dormer and completely split the
upper apartment from the lower. Prior to that the upper always included
utilities even though there were two meters. After that, the upper was no
longer cross wired with downstairs, although there were two outlets in the
lower living room that no longer worked after that. I just never got
around to going in the crawl space and rewiring those two, as I didn't
want to disturb all the abandoned asbestos steam heating pipes under
there. Just goes to show that it is sometimes better to be late to the
game than to be an early adopter...

Here's three pictures I have of mine. I had untaped these splices because I
was curious to see if they were soldered. They were not.

http://www.katva.org/images/elect039.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect038.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect037.jpg



--
Steve Barker


"Husky" wrote in message
news
mm wrote:
On Fri, 8 Dec 2006 20:28:30 -0600, "Steve Barker LT"
wrote:


can't speak for the BX, but the old cloth romex I'm pulling out of my


They had cloth romex? I thought the start of romex was after cloth
insulation.



Can't speak for railphotonut, but the house I bought last year has a ton
of cloth "romex". The wire itself is insulated with a plastic like
material, possibly an early vinyl, definitely NOT rubber. It clings to the
copper conductor, and leaves a sticky coating on the wire after it is
stripped. Each conductor is wrapped with tar cloth braid, they are bundled
with a brown kraft paper "string" (think old grocery bag), a wrap of
paper, and another wrap of tar cloth. Where and when ever possible, I am
pulling new ROMEX into place using it as a pull tape. In those instances
where it isn't possible to pull it out, I handle it as little as possible,
though the insulation isn't brittle. It does make a filthy mess no matter
whether removing or reusing it. I believe it was installed in the fifties,
as some of it was plastered into the pink flamingo bathroom walls. The
only reason I know that is I had to completely gut the bathroom for other
reasons. Luckily I found it without hitting it with a saw, drill, or
nail... Some has a silver-blue outer wrap, other has black. The internal
cloth is all black in the black, and color matched to the wire in the
silver-blue. They both have the white wire covered with white inner
insulation.

I also have a lot of that old BX with the cloth wires. Thank goodness the
house was originally built in 1890, before electrification. All of the
upgrades were done later, so there isn't any knob and tube. My
grandmother's 1902 built house in Buffalo wasn't so lucky. Because of the
Pan-American Exposition in 1901, builders were doing K&T installs in new
houses even though electricity was still new and not widely available. I
was still removing K&T in the eighties, and I think I got the last of it
abandoned in 1989 when we built a new dormer and completely split the
upper apartment from the lower. Prior to that the upper always included
utilities even though there were two meters. After that, the upper was no
longer cross wired with downstairs, although there were two outlets in the
lower living room that no longer worked after that. I just never got
around to going in the crawl space and rewiring those two, as I didn't
want to disturb all the abandoned asbestos steam heating pipes under
there. Just goes to show that it is sometimes better to be late to the
game than to be an early adopter...

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
Here's three pictures I have of mine. I had untaped these splices because
I was curious to see if they were soldered. They were not.

http://www.katva.org/images/elect039.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect038.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect037.jpg

That's enough to make your blood run cold.

Yes, it's been very interesting what they got away with for scores of years.

--
Steve Barker



"Homer J Simpson" wrote in message
news:CF_eh.54841$rv4.12800@edtnps90...

"Steve Barker LT" wrote in message
...
Here's three pictures I have of mine. I had untaped these splices
because I was curious to see if they were soldered. They were not.

http://www.katva.org/images/elect039.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect038.jpg

http://www.katva.org/images/elect037.jpg

That's enough to make your blood run cold.