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#1
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Christmas lights and fuses
I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they obviously were all on during the early test. So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three strands? |
#2
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote: I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they obviously were all on during the early test. So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three strands? It's too early for Christmas lights grin OK, here is the way to do it. One strand is 225 watts (25X9) Four strands is a total of 900watts. Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as long as its not used for other things too). Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that. Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved. Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use. They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at Walgreens. If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only stack TWO strings per outlet tap. BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at least a #14 gauge cable. Mark |
#3
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Christmas lights and fuses
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#4
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article
, Kurt Ullman wrote: It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing. There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke) OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended) -- JR |
#5
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Christmas lights and fuses
Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article , Kurt Ullman wrote: It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing. There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke) OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended) No! The world is coming to an end. You can't do that! Next, people will be grinding down the fat prong on plugs to defeat the useless polarization .... oh wait, that's a good thing ..... never mind. Seriously, many things that have polarized plugs really don't need them, especially something like Christmas lights. The one thing that using a polar plug does, is to allow using only 1 fuse in a fuse/plug (instead of 2). Fusing Christmas light strings (or stands) does protect from people doing dumb things, but for the most part, is an irritation and makes money for the manufacturing company. |
#7
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Christmas lights and fuses
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#8
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Christmas lights and fuses
There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke) OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended) -- JR You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string 20 together and wonder why their home burnt down..... polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for our safety and protection. |
#9
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Christmas lights and fuses
Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. |
#10
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article . com,
" wrote: There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke) OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended) You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string 20 together and wonder why their home burnt down..... If the circuit to which those "20" were connected was equipped with proper overcurrent protection, that would not happen. If the circuit were NOT so protected, Christmas lights would be the LEAST of her concern. polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for our safety and protection. Add to your list seatbelts, helmets, airbags, lawnmower deadman controls and the like. It's amazing we have lived as long as some of us have without such protections. We used an increasingly little-used safety device: Our brain and common sense. -- JR |
#11
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Christmas lights and fuses
w_tom wrote: Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low voltage and wired in series and when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has failed. So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at.. Mark |
#12
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Christmas lights and fuses
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#13
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman wrote: I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they obviously were all on during the early test. So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three strands? It's too early for Christmas lights grin Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn them on until Tgiving evening. OK, here is the way to do it. One strand is 225 watts (25X9) Four strands is a total of 900watts. Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as long as its not used for other things too). Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line. If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the individual strands are 5A. Limit those to 2 connected together, more does tend to blow fuses too often. Since it's the SECOND fuse (which is handling current for 3 strings), you know that 3 is too many. Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that. Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved. Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They aren't even going into a power strip. Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use. They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at Walgreens. If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only stack TWO strings per outlet tap. BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at least a #14 gauge cable. Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and not the glorified lamp cord. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#14
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:37:12 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article . com, " wrote: There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke) OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended) You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string 20 together and wonder why their home burnt down..... If the circuit to which those "20" were connected was equipped with proper overcurrent protection, that would not happen. If the circuit were NOT so protected, Christmas lights would be the LEAST of her concern. The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings. BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected to. polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for our safety and protection. Add to your list seatbelts, helmets, airbags, lawnmower deadman controls and the like. It's amazing we have lived as long as some of us have without such protections. We used an increasingly little-used safety device: Our brain and common sense. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#15
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:44:41 -0600, wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman wrote: In article , wrote: On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman wrote: I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they obviously were all on during the early test. So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three strands? It's too early for Christmas lights grin Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn them on until Tgiving evening. OK, here is the way to do it. One strand is 225 watts (25X9) Four strands is a total of 900watts. Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as long as its not used for other things too). Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line. If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the individual strands are 5A. Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that. Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved. Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They aren't even going into a power strip. Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use. They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at Walgreens. If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only stack TWO strings per outlet tap. BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at least a #14 gauge cable. Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and not the glorified lamp cord. SOunds to me like you have a defective string of lights. Could be a short in the wire, or as simple as a bad bulb where the filament got wedged between the rods that support it. I'd take the strand in the house and carefully check for any bare or broken wires. If there are some, either tape them, or replace the light string. If not, Take out all the bulbs and reinstall them one at a time. If one bulb blows the fuse, you found the bad bulb. The nice thing about those large bulbs is you can test one bulb at a time, unlike the mini bulbs where when one goes out they all go off. When you check the string, be sure to look into the base of the socket. That is where the wires often get wrapped around each other. Of course on some strings, you cant see the base of socket. If you have an ohm meter, you can also test each socket with the bulbs removed. Of course this can be time consuming, so if all else fails, you may need to just replace that string. One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string, I regularly connect TWO, with no problem. which is why I told you not to stack the plugs. Mark The labels on those strings say not to connect more than 60 bulbs together, which seems like a good idea. Strangely, I've seen the same limit on LED strings which use a lot less current. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#16
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 12:22:36 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote: In article , wrote: On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman wrote: One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string, which is why I told you not to stack the plugs. Mark Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#17
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. I've actually measured it at a little less than 1.5A, so 3 strings should work. I guess you get into a problem with startup current. We often connected 4 of the older strings (those with 7A fuses). -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#18
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:01:39 -0600, wrote:
On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman wrote: I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they obviously were all on during the early test. So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three strands? It's too early for Christmas lights grin In 2 weeks, it'll be after Thanksgiving. A lot of people put them out them. OK, here is the way to do it. One strand is 225 watts (25X9) Four strands is a total of 900watts. I consider it 1.5A (a little higher than measured, for safety reasons). For completeness, 1.3A for a string of C7 or G40 lights. For miniature lights, .2A per series of 50. Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as long as its not used for other things too). 15A should handle 10 (not all connected end to end). I'd limit it to 9. That would be 6 on a #16 extension cord (3 on one of the older #18 cords). Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that. Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a power strip (made for outdoor use) I find 4 connected to each other to work with the older strings (7A fuses). That should be reduced to 2 for the newer ones with 5A fuses (3 would work most of the time, but would blow fuses too often). Limit the connected strings to 2, and that's still 4 per extension cord (long lines that need multiple cords). Some people forget you can go both ways. And maybe add a couple of animated deer (about .6A each). Plug each string into one of the outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved. Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use. They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at Walgreens. Get the outlets off the ground (standing water). Most of mine are in bushes or trees. If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only stack TWO strings per outlet tap. BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at least a #14 gauge cable. I use a lot of #16 extension cords, but limiting current to 10A rather than the 13A marked on them. I'll use 2 extension cords to use the full 15A from an outlet. Anyway, most of my SSRs (solid state relays) are 10A. This year, I'll have more LED lights, where it's .02A per string (allowing a bit higher than measured, for safety). Mark And don't forget to use GFCI's for all outdoor outlets. I have pictures of my lights at http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com/winter.html . It's too early for this year, but last year's are there (click on the picture if you want a larger one). It should be similar this year, but with more LED lights. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#19
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. Yearly (g). I had to go Target before I could put the strings on, so I know how important THAT is. K |
#20
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 06:52:54 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
w_tom wrote: Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low voltage and wired in series Possibly some very old ones. Modern C7 and C9 are 120V bulbs. I have some made over 30 years ago that are definitely parallel. disconnected one and use it separately (Rudolph's nose), something that would not be doable with series lights. Also, some plug-in night lights use C7 bulbs, another indication they're not series. and when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has failed. That describes the way miniature lights are SUPPOSED to work. They often don't. There's a $5 tester that can be used on those (you'll see 120V al the way from one end of the series to the defective bulb). So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at.. Depending on the severity of the short, the insulation on the wires may melt before the breaker trips. I've seen 30A fuse-protected 120V circuits in a mobile home. Mark -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#21
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:18:27 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. Yearly (g). I had to go Target before I could put the strings on, so I know how important THAT is. K I have been using 10 or more of these C9-25 strings for a few years, and have had to replace a lot of bulbs. I'd check them every day (about 5 hours of use per day). About a third of the time, at least one bulb needed replacing. I've got some LED lights at Lowe's to try there this year. They may still have some if anyone is interested. Most seem to have been sold in October. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#22
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 07:21:05 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote: wrote: snip One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string, which is why I told you not to stack the plugs. Mark So manufacturers are producing dangerous strings of lights and advising customers that it is okay to string 3 together? Every package I have bought says that is okay. I have also been doing it and never (as in not once) had one of those fuses blow. Of course those are the mini lights, haven't used the big ones for ages but the principle still applies, I've used 500 of the miniature lights together without problems, for several years. According to my measurements, this would be a load of 2A. if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they ae UL approved. Harry K The LED strings say the same thing, but they use so little current it would take 100 strings (7000 lights) to use 2A. I don't expect to be using nearly that many. I forget about what the instructions say (which can be very different from reality) and go by real current measurements. -- 45 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#23
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote: The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings. True. However, the wire (probably 16 AWG) CAN handle 15 amps, beyond which would open the overcurrent protection device found on most outdoor electrical circuits. BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected to. You like the belt and suspenders approach to safety (overkill), I prefer the convenience of a SINGLE overcurrent protection device on a circuit. Those fuse-in-plug sets are, for that reason alone, the biggest pain in the @$$ ever dreamed-up by Big Brother to protect stupid people from themselves. Better safe than sorry? Fine. Don't use the lights AT ALL and the safety factor rises even higher. -- JR |
#24
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote: if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they are UL approved. Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S. For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS. Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug. -- JR |
#25
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. An excellent suggestion. FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps. -- JR |
#26
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article .com,
"Mark" wrote: And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low voltage and wired in series What you describe is MINIATURE lights, not the "C9" variety being discussed. when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb It is called a "shunt". if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at.. Your theory is sound, if extremely unlikely. Assuming enough MINIATURE lamps in a single string open (burn out), and all the shunts work properly (virtually impossible) to accomplish the short you describe, the small gauge wire comprising the string itself would ahem open, which would be sufficient overcurrent protection for me. The odds of this happening, INDOORS, on a REAL tree, are such that, after my house burned down, I would go to a casino and hit it big enough to pay for the rebuild. Problem solved. big grin -- JR |
#27
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Christmas lights and fuses
Jim Redelfs wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. An excellent suggestion. FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps. -- JR True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all mine and buy new ones every year. Harry K |
#28
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Christmas lights and fuses
Jim Redelfs wrote: In article . com, "Harry K" wrote: if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they are UL approved. Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S. For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS. Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug. -- JR I am talking about the miniature strings. I have been using them since they back in the 70s and have never, as in not once, had one of those 'in plug' fuses blow. Harry K |
#29
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. They are C9 NINE WATT bulbs. 25 times 9 = 225 watts, or slightly over 2 amps. But yes, I do suspect a short. Mark |
#30
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 06:52:54 -0800, "Mark" wrote:
w_tom wrote: Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low voltage and wired in series and when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has failed. So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at.. Mark Hey Mark, You got this all wrong. You would be correct if this was a string of mini bulbs, but C9 bulbs are those big outdoor lights bulbs that were in use before anyone ever made series wired mini lights. Those are in parallel, and each bulb is rated at 120volts AC. If you have one of the bulb type night lights in your house, they take C5 or C7 bulbs (5 or 7 watt). These C9s are the same but larger. Mark |
#31
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:33:53 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings. True. However, the wire (probably 16 AWG) They don't have the size marked on them, but judging by appearance some are 16AWG and others are 18AWG (where 5A fuses are more appropriate). CAN handle 15 amps, The tables I have say 10A, 14AWG for 15A. These tables came from the NEC. beyond which would open the overcurrent protection device found on most outdoor electrical circuits. I don't have ANY 15A breakers. All the 120V ones are 20A. BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected to. You like the belt and suspenders approach to safety (overkill), I prefer the convenience of a SINGLE overcurrent protection device on a circuit. Those fuse-in-plug sets are, for that reason alone, the biggest pain in the @$$ ever dreamed-up by Big Brother to protect stupid people from themselves. Makes sense, although I still wouldn't feel right about using 16AWG wire for 15A, at least not for more than a couple of minutes. If I need 15A from an outlet, I'd use bigger wire than that. Better safe than sorry? Fine. Don't use the lights AT ALL and the safety factor rises even higher. Of course some people will anyway, and could take advantage of those safety features. GFCIs help too (for outdoor lights). The good ones don't trip too much when they shouldn't. -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#32
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:02:00 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article .com, "Mark" wrote: And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low voltage and wired in series What you describe is MINIATURE lights, not the "C9" variety being discussed. when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb It is called a "shunt". if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at.. Your theory is sound, if extremely unlikely. Assuming enough MINIATURE lamps in a single string open (burn out), and all the shunts work properly (virtually impossible) to accomplish the short you describe, the small gauge wire comprising the string itself would ahem open, which would be sufficient overcurrent protection for me. Most current miniature lights use series of 50 (a few do use 35, and you may still find some that use 20). The odds of this happening, INDOORS, on a REAL tree, are such that, after my house burned down, I would go to a casino and hit it big enough to pay for the rebuild. Problem solved. big grin -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#33
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:57:49 -0600, wrote:
On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote: Kurt Ullman wrote: Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only a minor pain to change it out. A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings were connected through that same 5 amp fuse. They are C9 NINE WATT bulbs. 25 times 9 = 225 watts, or slightly over 2 amps. But yes, I do suspect a short. Mark I suppose they used to be, although I've never seen one. They all use 7W now. C9 is the size of bulb. 25*7=175, 175/120=1.458, close to my measured current drain. I round up to 1.5A for safety. If you don't believe that, I'm not stopping you from measuring it. C7 bulbs are usually 5W. 25*5, giving a current consumption of 1.04A. G40 bulbs use a similar amount of current. Miniature lights (series of 50) use about .2A per series of 50. That would be .4A for 100 lights and .6A for 150 lights (common for icicle light strings). Allow .02A for a string of LED lights and you'll be safe. -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#34
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:48:03 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. An excellent suggestion. FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps. Yes. I've stopped buying replacement bulbs separately. -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#35
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 19:46:06 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote: Jim Redelfs wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. An excellent suggestion. FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps. -- JR True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all mine and buy new ones every year. Harry K I normally agree, but sometimes an in-use string fails during the season, and replacement could be difficult. -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#36
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Christmas lights and fuses
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:43:20 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote: In article . com, "Harry K" wrote: if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they are UL approved. Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S. For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS. I have a few C9 lights at least 32 years old. They're closer to 7W than 9w. Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug. Consider how much more current the bulbs take when starting. That may exceed 5A when you're using 3 strings. I didn't eliminate those fuses, but changed to 2 strings together instead of 3. I already had 4 strings, and power at both ends of the line. It was just a matter of turning one string around. -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#37
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Christmas lights and fuses
On 10 Nov 2006 19:50:33 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote: Jim Redelfs wrote: In article . com, "Harry K" wrote: if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they are UL approved. Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S. For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS. Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug. -- JR I am talking about the miniature strings. I have been using them since they back in the 70s and have never, as in not once, had one of those 'in plug' fuses blow. I've had a few blow. This seemed to be caused by defective strings, not too many bulbs. These are strings to replace. Harry K -- 44 days until the winter solstice celebration Mark Lloyd http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com "God was invented by man for a reason, that reason is no longer applicable." |
#38
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Christmas lights and fuses
In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:43:20 -0600, Jim Redelfs wrote: In article . com, "Harry K" wrote: if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they are UL approved. Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S. There probably aren't any available for sale in the U.S. that don't bear a UL certification seal. It's not particularly unusual, though, for cheap Chinese imports to bear counterfeit UL labels. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rfeit+UL+china -- Regards, Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com) It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again. |
#39
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Christmas lights and fuses
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#40
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Christmas lights and fuses
Harry K wrote: Jim Redelfs wrote: In article , Mark Lloyd wrote: You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time. An excellent suggestion. FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps. -- JR True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all mine and buy new ones every year. Harry K Oh yeah, there I will try to find the problem. Harry K |
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