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Default Christmas lights and fuses

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?


It's too early for Christmas lights grin

OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).

Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.
Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.

Mark
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?


It's too early for Christmas lights grin

Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn
them on until Tgiving evening.


OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).

Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the
strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line.
If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug
into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the
individual strands are 5A.


Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.


Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its
own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They
aren't even going into a power strip.

Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.

Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and
not the glorified lamp cord.
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

In article
,
Kurt Ullman wrote:

It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing.


There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug
light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE
it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke)

OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended)
--

JR
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article
,
Kurt Ullman wrote:


It is the fuse on the strand itself that is blowing.



There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug
light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE
it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke)

OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended)

No! The world is coming to an end. You
can't do that! Next, people will be
grinding down the fat prong on plugs to
defeat the useless polarization .... oh
wait,
that's a good thing ..... never mind.
Seriously, many things that have polarized
plugs really don't need them, especially
something like Christmas lights. The one
thing that using a polar plug does, is
to allow using only 1 fuse in a
fuse/plug (instead of 2).
Fusing Christmas light strings (or
stands) does protect from people doing dumb
things, but for the most part, is an
irritation and makes money for the
manufacturing
company.


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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?


It's too early for Christmas lights grin

Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn
them on until Tgiving evening.


OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).

Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the
strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line.
If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug
into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the
individual strands are 5A.


Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.


Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its
own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They
aren't even going into a power strip.

Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.

Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and
not the glorified lamp cord.


SOunds to me like you have a defective string of lights.
Could be a short in the wire, or as simple as a bad bulb where the
filament got wedged between the rods that support it.
I'd take the strand in the house and carefully check for any bare or
broken wires. If there are some, either tape them, or replace the
light string. If not, Take out all the bulbs and reinstall them one
at a time. If one bulb blows the fuse, you found the bad bulb. The
nice thing about those large bulbs is you can test one bulb at a time,
unlike the mini bulbs where when one goes out they all go off.

When you check the string, be sure to look into the base of the
socket. That is where the wires often get wrapped around each other.
Of course on some strings, you cant see the base of socket. If you
have an ohm meter, you can also test each socket with the bulbs
removed. Of course this can be time consuming, so if all else fails,
you may need to just replace that string.

One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are
stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second
one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string, which is why I told
you not to stack the plugs.

Mark

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Default Christmas lights and fuses


There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug
light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE
it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke)

OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended)
--

JR


You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string
20 together and wonder why their home burnt down.....

polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for
our safety and protection.

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Default Christmas lights and fuses

Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.

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In article . com,
" wrote:

There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug
light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE
it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke)

OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended)


You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string
20 together and wonder why their home burnt down.....


If the circuit to which those "20" were connected was equipped with proper
overcurrent protection, that would not happen. If the circuit were NOT so
protected, Christmas lights would be the LEAST of her concern.

polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for
our safety and protection.


Add to your list seatbelts, helmets, airbags, lawnmower deadman controls and
the like. It's amazing we have lived as long as some of us have without such
protections. We used an increasingly little-used safety device: Our brain
and common sense.
--

JR


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Default Christmas lights and fuses


w_tom wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low
voltage and wired in series and when a single bulb fails open all the
lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb
fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then
it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can
continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has
failed.

So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs
fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will
have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the
wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your
breaker is rated at..

Mark

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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?


It's too early for Christmas lights grin

Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn
them on until Tgiving evening.


OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).

Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the
strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line.
If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug
into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the
individual strands are 5A.


Limit those to 2 connected together, more does tend to blow fuses too
often. Since it's the SECOND fuse (which is handling current for 3
strings), you know that 3 is too many.


Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.


Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its
own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They
aren't even going into a power strip.

Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.

Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and
not the glorified lamp cord.

--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 07:37:12 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article . com,
" wrote:

There is a simple and CHEAP fix for those stupid, wimpy, fuse-in-the-plug
light sets: Cut off that worthless and trouble prone fused plug and REPLACE
it with a REAL (regular) plug. Problem solved. (no joke)

OK, UL-lovers and hand-wringers: Flame away... (pun intended)


You know those fuses were added for folks like my wife who would string
20 together and wonder why their home burnt down.....


If the circuit to which those "20" were connected was equipped with proper
overcurrent protection, that would not happen. If the circuit were NOT so
protected, Christmas lights would be the LEAST of her concern.


The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be
flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings.

BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string
first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected
to.

polarized polugs GFCIs, grounded plugs, and all the rest are there for
our safety and protection.


Add to your list seatbelts, helmets, airbags, lawnmower deadman controls and
the like. It's amazing we have lived as long as some of us have without such
protections. We used an increasingly little-used safety device: Our brain
and common sense.

--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 23:44:41 -0600, wrote:

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 00:53:55 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?

It's too early for Christmas lights grin

Yeah I know. I am gonna put them up while it is nice and not turn
them on until Tgiving evening.


OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).

Sorry, I obviously did not say it right. It is the fuse on the
strand itself that is blowing. Also, it the second strand on the line.
If it was an overload I would think that the first one (the one I plug
into the extension cord) would be the one to blow? The fuses in the
individual strands are 5A.


Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use). Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.


Apparently I misspoke yet again. Each batch of strands goes to its
own extension cord which then goes to its own outlet on the deck. They
aren't even going into a power strip.

Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.

Don't remember the guage, but they are big honkin' Woods Heavy Duty and
not the glorified lamp cord.


SOunds to me like you have a defective string of lights.
Could be a short in the wire, or as simple as a bad bulb where the
filament got wedged between the rods that support it.
I'd take the strand in the house and carefully check for any bare or
broken wires. If there are some, either tape them, or replace the
light string. If not, Take out all the bulbs and reinstall them one
at a time. If one bulb blows the fuse, you found the bad bulb. The
nice thing about those large bulbs is you can test one bulb at a time,
unlike the mini bulbs where when one goes out they all go off.

When you check the string, be sure to look into the base of the
socket. That is where the wires often get wrapped around each other.
Of course on some strings, you cant see the base of socket. If you
have an ohm meter, you can also test each socket with the bulbs
removed. Of course this can be time consuming, so if all else fails,
you may need to just replace that string.

One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are
stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second
one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string,


I regularly connect TWO, with no problem.

which is why I told
you not to stack the plugs.

Mark


The labels on those strings say not to connect more than 60 bulbs
together, which seems like a good idea. Strangely, I've seen the same
limit on LED strings which use a lot less current.
--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."


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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


I've actually measured it at a little less than 1.5A, so 3 strings
should work. I guess you get into a problem with startup current.

We often connected 4 of the older strings (those with 7A fuses).
--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 18:01:39 -0600, wrote:

On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 22:16:25 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

I am putting the big lights (C-9s) on my tree outside (yeah I know but
it IS 74 degrees here today). I put a 4 strands of 25 on the same
extension cord instead of the three I usually do, figuring that if I
have too much and blow a fuse, then I can run another extension cord to
the odd one. I was testing it today and after about an hour I noticed
that they weren't working any more. Upon review, though, the SECOND
strand was the one not working, not the one plugged into the extension
as usual. I had tried all of the lights before putting them up and they
obviously were all on during the early test.
So... since it wasn't the fuse on the first strand that went
bye-bye, is this likely to be a bad fuse on the second strand, a bad
second strand or should I just grit and keep the run down to three
strands?


It's too early for Christmas lights grin


In 2 weeks, it'll be after Thanksgiving. A lot of people put them out
them.

OK, here is the way to do it.

One strand is 225 watts (25X9)
Four strands is a total of 900watts.


I consider it 1.5A (a little higher than measured, for safety
reasons).

For completeness, 1.3A for a string of C7 or G40 lights. For miniature
lights, .2A per series of 50.

Any 15 A breaker can handle this and at least one more strand. (as
long as its not used for other things too).


15A should handle 10 (not all connected end to end). I'd limit it to
9. That would be 6 on a #16 extension cord (3 on one of the older #18
cords).

Your problem is you are stacking the cords. DO NOT do that.
Plug EACH light string into it's one outlet. In other words, get a
power strip (made for outdoor use)


I find 4 connected to each other to work with the older strings (7A
fuses). That should be reduced to 2 for the newer ones with 5A fuses
(3 would work most of the time, but would blow fuses too often).

Limit the connected strings to 2, and that's still 4 per extension
cord (long lines that need multiple cords). Some people forget you can
go both ways. And maybe add a couple of animated deer (about .6A
each).

Plug each string into one of the
outlets on that power strip and your problem is solved.
Last Christmas I noticed they make power strips just for this use.
They have a built in stake to stake them to the ground. Kind of a
nice setup, although they were around $25. I believe I saw them at
Walgreens.


Get the outlets off the ground (standing water). Most of mine are in
bushes or trees.

If you insist on stacking the strings, use a 3Way (cube tap) and only
stack TWO strings per outlet tap.

BTW: If you are using an extension cord for this, be sure to use at
least a #14 gauge cable.


I use a lot of #16 extension cords, but limiting current to 10A rather
than the 13A marked on them. I'll use 2 extension cords to use the
full 15A from an outlet. Anyway, most of my SSRs (solid state relays)
are 10A.

This year, I'll have more LED lights, where it's .02A per string
(allowing a bit higher than measured, for safety).

Mark


And don't forget to use GFCI's for all outdoor outlets.

I have pictures of my lights at
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com/winter.html . It's too early for
this year, but last year's are there (click on the picture if you want
a larger one). It should be similar this year, but with more LED
lights.
--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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Default Christmas lights and fuses

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


Yearly (g). I had to go Target before I could put the strings on, so
I know how important THAT is.

K
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On 10 Nov 2006 06:52:54 -0800, "Mark" wrote:


w_tom wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low
voltage and wired in series


Possibly some very old ones. Modern C7 and C9 are 120V bulbs. I have
some made over 30 years ago that are definitely parallel. disconnected
one and use it separately (Rudolph's nose), something that would not
be doable with series lights. Also, some plug-in night lights use C7
bulbs, another indication they're not series.

and when a single bulb fails open all the
lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb
fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then
it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can
continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has
failed.


That describes the way miniature lights are SUPPOSED to work. They
often don't. There's a $5 tester that can be used on those (you'll see
120V al the way from one end of the series to the defective bulb).

So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs
fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will
have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the
wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your
breaker is rated at..


Depending on the severity of the short, the insulation on the wires
may melt before the breaker trips.

I've seen 30A fuse-protected 120V circuits in a mobile home.

Mark

--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."


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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 17:18:27 GMT, Kurt Ullman
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


Yearly (g). I had to go Target before I could put the strings on, so
I know how important THAT is.

K


I have been using 10 or more of these C9-25 strings for a few years,
and have had to replace a lot of bulbs. I'd check them every day
(about 5 hours of use per day). About a third of the time, at least
one bulb needed replacing.

I've got some LED lights at Lowe's to try there this year. They may
still have some if anyone is interested. Most seem to have been sold
in October.
--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On 10 Nov 2006 07:21:05 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote:


wrote:

snip

One other thing. Does that string work by itself? If you are
stacking plugs, the fuse in the first one is also powering the second
one, etc. A 5A fuse can only handle ONE string, which is why I told
you not to stack the plugs.

Mark


So manufacturers are producing dangerous strings of lights and advising
customers that it is okay to string 3 together? Every package I have
bought says that is okay. I have also been doing it and never (as in
not once) had one of those fuses blow. Of course those are the mini
lights, haven't used the big ones for ages but the principle still
applies,


I've used 500 of the miniature lights together without problems, for
several years. According to my measurements, this would be a load of
2A.

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if they ae
UL approved.

Harry K


The LED strings say the same thing, but they use so little current it
would take 100 strings (7000 lights) to use 2A. I don't expect to be
using nearly that many.

I forget about what the instructions say (which can be very different
from reality) and go by real current measurements.
--
45 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be
flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings.


True. However, the wire (probably 16 AWG) CAN handle 15 amps, beyond which
would open the overcurrent protection device found on most outdoor electrical
circuits.

BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string
first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected
to.


You like the belt and suspenders approach to safety (overkill), I prefer the
convenience of a SINGLE overcurrent protection device on a circuit. Those
fuse-in-plug sets are, for that reason alone, the biggest pain in the @$$ ever
dreamed-up by Big Brother to protect stupid people from themselves.

Better safe than sorry? Fine. Don't use the lights AT ALL and the safety
factor rises even higher.
--

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In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote:

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if
they are UL approved.


Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter
how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S.

For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and
C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS.

Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim
that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the
numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of
trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring
suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug.
--

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In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


An excellent suggestion.

FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has
been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire
and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps.
--

JR


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In article .com,
"Mark" wrote:

And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low
voltage and wired in series


What you describe is MINIATURE lights, not the "C9" variety being discussed.

when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they
have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage
is applied across the failed bulb


It is called a "shunt".

if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all
short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is
rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15
or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at..


Your theory is sound, if extremely unlikely. Assuming enough MINIATURE lamps
in a single string open (burn out), and all the shunts work properly
(virtually impossible) to accomplish the short you describe, the small gauge
wire comprising the string itself would ahem open, which would be sufficient
overcurrent protection for me.

The odds of this happening, INDOORS, on a REAL tree, are such that, after my
house burned down, I would go to a casino and hit it big enough to pay for the
rebuild. Problem solved. big grin
--
JR
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Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


An excellent suggestion.

FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has
been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire
and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps.
--

JR


True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition
to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get
it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all
mine and buy new ones every year.

Harry K

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Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote:

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if
they are UL approved.


Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter
how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S.

For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and
C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS.

Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim
that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the
numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of
trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring
suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug.
--

JR


I am talking about the miniature strings. I have been using them since
they back in the 70s and have never, as in not once, had one of those
'in plug' fuses blow.

Harry K

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On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


They are C9 NINE WATT bulbs. 25 times 9 = 225 watts, or slightly over
2 amps. But yes, I do suspect a short.

Mark
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On 10 Nov 2006 06:52:54 -0800, "Mark" wrote:


w_tom wrote:
Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low
voltage and wired in series and when a single bulb fails open all the
lights would go out EXCEPT they have a special device that when a bulb
fails open the full voltage is applied across the failed bulb and then
it shorts itself. So then that light is off but all the others can
continune to work, with a slightly higher voltage since one bulb has
failed.

So you should be able to see where this is going.. if enough bulbs
fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all short, you will
have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is rated to protect the
wire that the string is made out of, not the 15 or 20 Amps that your
breaker is rated at..

Mark



Hey Mark,
You got this all wrong. You would be correct if this was a string of
mini bulbs, but C9 bulbs are those big outdoor lights bulbs that were
in use before anyone ever made series wired mini lights. Those are in
parallel, and each bulb is rated at 120volts AC.

If you have one of the bulb type night lights in your house, they take
C5 or C7 bulbs (5 or 7 watt). These C9s are the same but larger.

Mark


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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:33:53 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

The WIRE in those light strings can't handle the 30A that would be
flowing in the first of the 20 connected strings.


True. However, the wire (probably 16 AWG)


They don't have the size marked on them, but judging by appearance
some are 16AWG and others are 18AWG (where 5A fuses are more
appropriate).

CAN handle 15 amps,


The tables I have say 10A, 14AWG for 15A. These tables came from the
NEC.

beyond which
would open the overcurrent protection device found on most outdoor electrical
circuits.


I don't have ANY 15A breakers. All the 120V ones are 20A.

BTW, I have one string that is fuseless. I never use that string
first. It's always protected by the fuses in the string it's connected
to.


You like the belt and suspenders approach to safety (overkill), I prefer the
convenience of a SINGLE overcurrent protection device on a circuit. Those
fuse-in-plug sets are, for that reason alone, the biggest pain in the @$$ ever
dreamed-up by Big Brother to protect stupid people from themselves.


Makes sense, although I still wouldn't feel right about using 16AWG
wire for 15A, at least not for more than a couple of minutes. If I
need 15A from an outlet, I'd use bigger wire than that.

Better safe than sorry? Fine. Don't use the lights AT ALL and the safety
factor rises even higher.


Of course some people will anyway, and could take advantage of those
safety features. GFCIs help too (for outdoor lights). The good ones
don't trip too much when they shouldn't.
--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 21:02:00 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article .com,
"Mark" wrote:

And there is a REAL reason for the fuses. The bulbs are all low
voltage and wired in series


What you describe is MINIATURE lights, not the "C9" variety being discussed.

when a single bulb fails open all the lights would go out EXCEPT they
have a special device that when a bulb fails open the full voltage
is applied across the failed bulb


It is called a "shunt".

if enough bulbs fail, they will all begin to fail and when they all
short, you will have one big short, hence you need a fuse that is
rated to protect the wire that the string is made out of, not the 15
or 20 Amps that your breaker is rated at..


Your theory is sound, if extremely unlikely. Assuming enough MINIATURE lamps
in a single string open (burn out), and all the shunts work properly
(virtually impossible) to accomplish the short you describe, the small gauge
wire comprising the string itself would ahem open, which would be sufficient
overcurrent protection for me.


Most current miniature lights use series of 50 (a few do use 35, and
you may still find some that use 20).

The odds of this happening, INDOORS, on a REAL tree, are such that, after my
house burned down, I would go to a casino and hit it big enough to pay for the
rebuild. Problem solved. big grin

--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 23:57:49 -0600, wrote:

On 10 Nov 2006 05:33:54 -0800, "w_tom" wrote:

Kurt Ullman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. I think the diagnosis will take more time than
replacement, and the string is low enough on the tree that it will only
a minor pain to change it out.


A string of 25 8 watt bulbs would draw less than 2 amps. Two strings
in series would not blow out that 5 amp fuse. Clearly there must be a
short in that string. Load would approach excessive if three strings
were connected through that same 5 amp fuse.


They are C9 NINE WATT bulbs. 25 times 9 = 225 watts, or slightly over
2 amps. But yes, I do suspect a short.

Mark


I suppose they used to be, although I've never seen one. They all use
7W now. C9 is the size of bulb. 25*7=175, 175/120=1.458, close to my
measured current drain. I round up to 1.5A for safety.

If you don't believe that, I'm not stopping you from measuring it.

C7 bulbs are usually 5W. 25*5, giving a current consumption of 1.04A.
G40 bulbs use a similar amount of current.

Miniature lights (series of 50) use about .2A per series of 50. That
would be .4A for 100 lights and .6A for 150 lights (common for icicle
light strings).

Allow .02A for a string of LED lights and you'll be safe.
--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:48:03 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


An excellent suggestion.

FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has
been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire
and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps.


Yes. I've stopped buying replacement bulbs separately.
--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On 10 Nov 2006 19:46:06 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote:


Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


An excellent suggestion.

FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has
been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire
and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps.
--

JR


True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition
to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get
it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all
mine and buy new ones every year.

Harry K


I normally agree, but sometimes an in-use string fails during the
season, and replacement could be difficult.
--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."


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On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:43:20 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote:

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if
they are UL approved.


Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter
how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S.

For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and
C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS.


I have a few C9 lights at least 32 years old. They're closer to 7W
than 9w.

Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim
that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the
numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of
trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring
suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug.


Consider how much more current the bulbs take when starting. That may
exceed 5A when you're using 3 strings.

I didn't eliminate those fuses, but changed to 2 strings together
instead of 3. I already had 4 strings, and power at both ends of the
line. It was just a matter of turning one string around.
--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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On 10 Nov 2006 19:50:33 -0800, "Harry K"
wrote:


Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote:

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if
they are UL approved.


Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter
how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S.

For the record, intermediate base decorative lamps designated C9, C9-1/4, and
C9-1/2 have been rated at 7 watts for YEARS.

Given that, three strings of 25 would draw 4.2 amps at 125VAC. Your claim
that you have never blown a fuse-in-plug is certainly feasible based on the
numbers. In real world terms, however, you are VERY lucky. I had a lot of
trouble with them after they first appeared, hence my reckless and uncaring
suggestion to replace the plug with a "real" (non-fused) plug.
--

JR


I am talking about the miniature strings. I have been using them since
they back in the 70s and have never, as in not once, had one of those
'in plug' fuses blow.


I've had a few blow. This seemed to be caused by defective strings,
not too many bulbs. These are strings to replace.

Harry K

--
44 days until the winter solstice celebration

Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"God was invented by man for a reason, that
reason is no longer applicable."
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In article , Mark Lloyd wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 20:43:20 -0600, Jim Redelfs
wrote:

In article . com,
"Harry K" wrote:

if the strings have the capability of being stacked (and the
instructions say ok), then it is safe to do so, even more so if
they are UL approved.


Huh? I defy you to find a NEW set of Christmas lights, of ANY type, no matter
how CHEAP, that is NOT UL-listed in the U.S.


There probably aren't any available for sale in the U.S. that don't bear a UL
certification seal. It's not particularly unusual, though, for cheap Chinese
imports to bear counterfeit UL labels.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q...rfeit+UL+china

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.
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Harry K wrote:
Jim Redelfs wrote:
In article ,
Mark Lloyd wrote:

You might throw the cord out, but don't forget that this is a source
of extra bulbs you'll probably need some time.


An excellent suggestion.

FWIW, since many, MANY years ago, as a source for replacement lamps, it has
been MUCH cheaper to buy a new set, remove the lamps and throw away the wire
and sockets, than to buy packs of replacement lamps.
--

JR


True but I find that for the minatures it is not a paying proposition
to try to find and replace a dead bulb in a dead string. Find it, get
it working, hang it and find that another has blown. I just toss all
mine and buy new ones every year.

Harry K


Oh yeah, there I will try to find the problem.

Harry K

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