[micky]

Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

[Davej]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 3:42:51 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

Well, it might not be too difficult to dig down a foot or two next to
the rod to inspect it that far. You can always add another rod next to
the first one, and many people have several rods. The more the better.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 17 Apr 2020 07:00:02 -0700 (PDT), Davej
wrote:

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 3:42:51 AM UTC-5, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

The question was mostly theoretical. Do they sometimes rot away like
an electrode, or is this just a notion I got when dreaming?

Well, it might not be too difficult to dig down a foot or two next to
the rod to inspect it that far.

That would be hard because I put the rod right between the high and low
pressure lines to the AC, so no one would kick or trip on it. (If I
get the AC replaced, there may be a short bit of time when nothing and
no one is there, but I can't count on my being available.)

You can always add another rod next to
the first one, and many people have several rods. The more the better.

I could do that. Only takes 5 minutes. I think I already bought a rod
at a hamfest (didn't have to go shopping and thinking I got a bargain,
but I don't remember how much I paid and now I see they are $8 to 12.
At least I didn't pay more than that.)

But that still leaves the theory part.

[Dean Hoffman[_12_]]

On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

There are ground rod testers but I guess hardly anyone has one.
It's not a typical volt/ohm meter. Supposedly, one is supposed to put
the first one in then test it to see if it has under 25 ohms resistance.
One is supposed to put the 2nd one in if not.
The rule of thumb is to put the 2nd one in the length of the rod
from the first one.
How is the connection between the ground wire and the rod? That
would be something you could clean up fairly easily.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 17 Apr 2020 10:36:40 -0500, Dean Hoffman
wrote:

On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

There are ground rod testers but I guess hardly anyone has one.
It's not a typical volt/ohm meter. Supposedly, one is supposed to put
the first one in then test it to see if it has under 25 ohms resistance.

So I assume this is not just for initial installation, or also for
checking-up later.

One is supposed to put the 2nd one in if not.
The rule of thumb is to put the 2nd one in the length of the rod
from the first one.
How is the connection between the ground wire and the rod? That
would be something you could clean up fairly easily.

I've been of the school tha say I connected it right in the first place,
that should be enough.

Sort of like when I told me then-wife, "I told you I loved you when I
married you. That should be enough".

Just kidding, never married, I'll tear the grass away from the
connection and check it or redo it.

[Fred McKenzie]

In article ,
micky wrote:

Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

My house was built in 1965, rewired in 2000. I recently found that
there was a new ground rod, but the old one is still there.

I have been unable to remove the old one. It is as if it had "rusted in
place". I even tried using an old bumper jack and chain to raise it.
It wouldn't budge, but the chain broke!

This does not answer the question of whether it is still a good ground.
Unless you have a way to test the old one, I recommend a new one.

Fred

[[email protected]]

On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?


There are ground rod testers but I guess hardly anyone has one.
It's not a typical volt/ohm meter. Supposedly, one is supposed to put
the first one in then test it to see if it has under 25 ohms resistance.
One is supposed to put the 2nd one in if not.
The rule of thumb is to put the 2nd one in the length of the rod
from the first one.
How is the connection between the ground wire and the rod? That
would be something you could clean up fairly easily.


I seem to remember having a dream - that Micky cleaned-up
and tested this ground rod - so it should be fine.
John T.

[Bob F]

On 4/17/2020 1:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?



You could measure the resistance to ground of the rod installation.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:27:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 4/17/2020 1:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?



You could measure the resistance to ground of the rod installation.
A galvanized ground rod should be good for 15 or more years. A copper
bonded steel rod should be good for 40 or more years. Stainless steel
will last 75 years or more. Depends on soil type and
alkalinity/acidity or salt content

[Dean Hoffman[_12_]]

On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article , says...

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.




The ground rods are partly for lightning, but mainly for protection of
people. Those 2 ground rods you mention are really in parallel seperted
by the resistance of the wire between them, not series.

The ground rod or ground wire for the house is for when say you place
your hand on the washing machine and there is a short from the hot wire
to the frame of the washer. If you touch the washer and anyting else
that is grounded you will not get shocked. The skin of the body has
several thousand ohms of resistance, so the largest portion of the
current will go to the ground by way of the grounded conductor (usually
green or bare wire). The neutral wire should be connected to the ground
wire at the breaker/fuse box.

[Dean Hoffman[_12_]]

On 4/17/20 3:29 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.




The ground rods are partly for lightning, but mainly for protection of
people. Those 2 ground rods you mention are really in parallel seperted
by the resistance of the wire between them, not series.

You must mean the equipment grounding conductor. What if it's
gone for some silly reason or the connections are bad? Will the ground
rods do any good then?

The ground rod or ground wire for the house is for when say you place
your hand on the washing machine and there is a short from the hot wire
to the frame of the washer. If you touch the washer and anyting else
that is grounded you will not get shocked. The skin of the body has
several thousand ohms of resistance, so the largest portion of the
current will go to the ground by way of the grounded conductor (usually
green or bare wire). The neutral wire should be connected to the ground
wire at the breaker/fuse box.

Suppose the equipment grounding conductor is in good shape. What
would happen if the ground rods are gone or have bad connections?

[Bob F]

On 4/17/2020 1:29 PM, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.




The ground rods are partly for lightning, but mainly for protection of
people. Those 2 ground rods you mention are really in parallel seperted
by the resistance of the wire between them, not series.

The ground rod or ground wire for the house is for when say you place
your hand on the washing machine and there is a short from the hot wire
to the frame of the washer. If you touch the washer and anyting else
that is grounded you will not get shocked. The skin of the body has
several thousand ohms of resistance, so the largest portion of the
current will go to the ground by way of the grounded conductor (usually
green or bare wire). The neutral wire should be connected to the ground
wire at the breaker/fuse box.


The ground rod also keeps the house ground from floating up or down with
the relative power used on the 2 hots coming in to the house. The fellow
across the street from me had lights that would get brighter or dimmer
as some appliance turned on or off. On my advise, they had the
electrician that re-did their wiring come check the ground rod
connections, which were not connected properly.

[micky]

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:43:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:27:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 4/17/2020 1:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?



You could measure the resistance to ground of the rod installation.
A galvanized ground rod should be good for 15 or more years. A copper
bonded steel rod should be good for 40 or more years. Stainless steel
will last 75 years or more. Depends on soil type and
alkalinity/acidity or salt content

What is it that markes their failure? Disappearance, like an electrode,
like half of the copper plates in a lead acid battery?

[Ralph Mowery]

In article , says...

The ground rod also keeps the house ground from floating up or down with
the relative power used on the 2 hots coming in to the house. The fellow
across the street from me had lights that would get brighter or dimmer
as some appliance turned on or off. On my advise, they had the
electrician that re-did their wiring come check the ground rod
connections, which were not connected properly.



That is a by product. If the neutral wire was correct and making the
connection it should, the ground rod would have no effect. If all they
did was work on the ground rod wireing, there is still a problem. A
proper operating circuit will operate without any ground rod at all.

If the neutral wire is not making a very good connection from the
breaker box to the transformer of the power company then any unballance
in the current of the two hot wires ( US power system) will cause the
voltage to vary on each side of the line. So instead of having a
nominal 120 volts on each side of of a 240 volt line one side will be
lower in voltage as the other side is higher in voltage depending on how
much current is being used.

[trader_4]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:04:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.

I was going to say something along the lines of the alarm system should
be grounded to the service grounding electrode system. You're not supposed
to be driving separate ground rods for various systems or components.
But I suppose if it's at the opposite side of the house it might be tempting
to do so, not sure it buys you anything and it could make things worse.

[trader_4]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:29:14 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article , says...

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.




The ground rods are partly for lightning, but mainly for protection of
people. Those 2 ground rods you mention are really in parallel seperted
by the resistance of the wire between them, not series.

It's the resistance of each of the rods to earth. And if any substantial
current winds up flowing, like from a loose neutral, then you can have a
substantial voltage difference.



The ground rod or ground wire for the house is for when say you place
your hand on the washing machine and there is a short from the hot wire
to the frame of the washer.

Actually that's handled by the equipment grounding conductor that ties
the metal washer case to the neutral at the panel. That fault current
should never make it to the ground rod.


If you touch the washer and anyting else
that is grounded you will not get shocked. The skin of the body has
several thousand ohms of resistance, so the largest portion of the
current will go to the ground by way of the grounded conductor (usually
green or bare wire). The neutral wire should be connected to the ground
wire at the breaker/fuse box.

The ground rod keeps the equipment grounding conductor and the neutral at
close to earth potential.

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:46:19 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article , says...

The ground rod also keeps the house ground from floating up or down with
the relative power used on the 2 hots coming in to the house. The fellow
across the street from me had lights that would get brighter or dimmer
as some appliance turned on or off. On my advise, they had the
electrician that re-did their wiring come check the ground rod
connections, which were not connected properly.



That is a by product. If the neutral wire was correct and making the
connection it should, the ground rod would have no effect. If all they
did was work on the ground rod wireing, there is still a problem. A
proper operating circuit will operate without any ground rod at all.

If the neutral wire is not making a very good connection from the
breaker box to the transformer of the power company then any unballance
in the current of the two hot wires ( US power system) will cause the
voltage to vary on each side of the line. So instead of having a
nominal 120 volts on each side of of a 240 volt line one side will be
lower in voltage as the other side is higher in voltage depending on how
much current is being used.

Correct, the neutral is supposed to be taking all of the unbalanced
current back to the transformer but in wye distribution, the earth is
still a current path although not the primary one.
Current doesn't just take the p[ath of least resistance, it takes all
paths, proportioned by the relative resistance. In wye distribution,
one medium voltage connection and a neutral connection to the
transformer, some circuit current will always be traveling through the
earth. Doing measurements on pole transformer grounding wires I have
seen readings from less than one amp to almost 3 flowing through the
earth. This also imposes a voltage on your neutral, even when
everything is working normally and you might easily find several volts
on your ground if you have a bad grounding electrode system, compared
to the slab under your house, your garage floor or the dirt outside.
It is easy to get a "tingle voltage". That is probably not enough to
hurt you but you might be startled enough to have a secondary injury.

I probably have the best ground on my street, 5 rods around the house,
a Ufer under the garage, a Ufer under my addition, 2000 square feet of
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that
I can detect and my surge protections seems to be working well. I have
had 2 direct hits and never lost a thing.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 19:11:43 -0400, micky
wrote:

In alt.home.repair, on Fri, 17 Apr 2020 13:43:23 -0400, Clare Snyder
wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 09:27:54 -0700, Bob F wrote:

On 4/17/2020 1:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?



You could measure the resistance to ground of the rod installation.
A galvanized ground rod should be good for 15 or more years. A copper
bonded steel rod should be good for 40 or more years. Stainless steel
will last 75 years or more. Depends on soil type and
alkalinity/acidity or salt content

What is it that markes their failure? Disappearance, like an electrode,
like half of the copper plates in a lead acid battery?
That's quite the lead acid batery you've got there Mickey. In 60
years I've never seen copper plates in a lead acid battery - - -

[[email protected]]

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:07:45 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:04:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.

I was going to say something along the lines of the alarm system should
be grounded to the service grounding electrode system. You're not supposed
to be driving separate ground rods for various systems or components.
But I suppose if it's at the opposite side of the house it might be tempting
to do so, not sure it buys you anything and it could make things worse.

If you don't bond all of the electrodes, it definitely makes things
worse. Any ground shift will be imposed on your equipment.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sat, 18 Apr 2020 01:31:14 -0400, wrote:

On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 17:07:45 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 4:04:58 PM UTC-4, Dean Hoffman wrote:
On 4/17/20 3:42 AM, micky wrote:
Do copper or copper-clad steel ground rods disappear with time?

After 37 years, does mine need replacing?

When I put in my first burglar alarm, 37 years ago, I put in a ground
rod to ground the system, and iiuc reduce the chance of lightening
damage. (Nonetheless, after about 20 years, when I was leaving for
work, there were wisps of smoke coming from the keypad/control usit, and
it never worked again. ;-) I have a new alarm now, grounded to the same
rod, but something told me the rod was gone. The top of it is still
there so maybe I dreamed it, but is it likely that the part above ground
is there but most of it below ground is gone, and needs replacing?

By the way, ground rods are primarily for lightning and other
large surges. They really don't do any practical good for short circuit
protection. The equipment grounding conductors are there for that.
Let's say the ground rod at your house and the one the the utility's
service both meet the 25 ohm or less standard. They're in series so the
two combined would have a resistance of 50 ohms. There won't be enough
current flow to trip a breaker to shutdown lethal current if there is a
short to metal in your house somewhere.
There's a calculator here if you want to see for yourself.
http://www.ohmslawcalculator.com/ohms-law-calculator
Enter 125 volts in the voltage box and 50 ohms in the resistance
box. The current flow through the two rods would be 2.5 amps, nowhere
nearly enough to trip a normally sized breaker or blow a normally sized
fuse.

I was going to say something along the lines of the alarm system should
be grounded to the service grounding electrode system. You're not supposed
to be driving separate ground rods for various systems or components.
But I suppose if it's at the opposite side of the house it might be tempting
to do so, not sure it buys you anything and it could make things worse.

If you don't bond all of the electrodes, it definitely makes things
worse. Any ground shift will be imposed on your equipment.
All grounds must be "bonded" to create a "virtual single point
ground"

[Homeless Lisa]

On 4/17/2020 1:42 AM, micky wrote:


You never had one to begin with, you dickless wonder.

[TimR[_2_]]

On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!

Which brings up a thought. Micky could borrow a DC clamp ammeter and measure current to his ground rod. Or, maybe we all should.

[TimR[_2_]]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!

Which brings up a thought. Micky could borrow a DC clamp ammeter and measure current to his ground rod. Or, maybe we all should.

Wait, why would I think it's DC? Brain cramp. So any clamp meter should work. Think I'll try it.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.



Which brings up a thought. Micky could borrow a DC clamp ammeter and measure current to his ground rod. Or, maybe we all should.

Since the ground rod in question is one that is apparently solely for the
alarm panel which is typically fed from a wall wart, the current should be
zero and whatever it is, it's largely irrelevant to the impedance, which
is the main issue. It's there for lightning induced surge protection.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.





He said the main breaker is off, so how can it flow through the meter ?
I really wonder how there can be any current at all or maybe close to
the .3 amps that is on the one at the transformer.

Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 14:45:22 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.





He said the main breaker is off, so how can it flow through the meter ?
I really wonder how there can be any current at all or maybe close to
the .3 amps that is on the one at the transformer.

Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

This is just the result of wye distribution. The neutral current is
supposed to go back on the strand but there will always be voltage
drop and the difference will attempt to get back via earth. I have a
far better ground than that bare copper wire stapled to the bottom of
the pole.


Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

This is a 2 ga primary @ 13.5KV with 20 pole pigs on it over about a
mile of wire.
This is the map
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Xfmr.jpg

There will be quite a bit of voltage drop in that wire.

[Ralph Mowery]

In article ,
says...

Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

This is just the result of wye distribution. The neutral current is
supposed to go back on the strand but there will always be voltage
drop and the difference will attempt to get back via earth. I have a
far better ground than that bare copper wire stapled to the bottom of
the pole.


Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

This is a 2 ga primary @ 13.5KV with 20 pole pigs on it over about a
mile of wire.
This is the map
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Xfmr.jpg

There will be quite a bit of voltage drop in that wire.



As I said I was not getting the big picture. I was thinking a normal
house with the transformer about 100 to 200 feet away, not a mile.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.





He said the main breaker is off, so how can it flow through the meter ?

Good point, I missed that. It would not be metered then.



I really wonder how there can be any current at all or maybe close to
the .3 amps that is on the one at the transformer.

It would have to be flowing via the neutral from the transformer to the
house, then to ground.



Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

That wire would be the neutral and it;s low resistance. But current will
take that path, plus a smaller amount will go through the ground rods.
Suppose the neighbor has 30A flowing on one hot. Most of that, let's
say 29A will flow via the neighbor's neutral back to the transformer.
But there is the parallel, higher resistance ground path and let's say
1A flows there, from the neighbor's house ground rod, through the earth
back to the ground at the transformer. There is also yet another path,
which is from the neutral at the transformer through the neutral to
Fretwell's house, to his ground rod, through the earth, back to the
neighbor's ground. That could be what he's seeing.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 19:34:26 -0400, Ralph Mowery
wrote:

In article ,
says...

Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

This is just the result of wye distribution. The neutral current is
supposed to go back on the strand but there will always be voltage
drop and the difference will attempt to get back via earth. I have a
far better ground than that bare copper wire stapled to the bottom of
the pole.


Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

This is a 2 ga primary @ 13.5KV with 20 pole pigs on it over about a
mile of wire.
This is the map
http://gfretwell.com/electrical/Xfmr.jpg

There will be quite a bit of voltage drop in that wire.



As I said I was not getting the big picture. I was thinking a normal
house with the transformer about 100 to 200 feet away, not a mile.

You have the low voltage service drop but you also have to add in
losses in the medium voltage primary that will feed a whole street or
even a small neighborhood on one conductor plus the grounded conductor
that serves the primary and secondary.

[[email protected]]

On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:03:29 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.





He said the main breaker is off, so how can it flow through the meter ?

Good point, I missed that. It would not be metered then.



I really wonder how there can be any current at all or maybe close to
the .3 amps that is on the one at the transformer.

It would have to be flowing via the neutral from the transformer to the
house, then to ground.



Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

That wire would be the neutral and it;s low resistance. But current will
take that path, plus a smaller amount will go through the ground rods.
Suppose the neighbor has 30A flowing on one hot. Most of that, let's
say 29A will flow via the neighbor's neutral back to the transformer.
But there is the parallel, higher resistance ground path and let's say
1A flows there, from the neighbor's house ground rod, through the earth
back to the ground at the transformer. There is also yet another path,
which is from the neutral at the transformer through the neutral to
Fretwell's house, to his ground rod, through the earth, back to the
neighbor's ground. That could be what he's seeing.

I suspect I am seeing most of the stray current from the primary side.

[trader_4]

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 9:53:57 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 17:03:29 -0700 (PDT), trader_4
wrote:

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 2:45:30 PM UTC-4, Ralph Mowery wrote:
In article ,
says...

On Tuesday, April 21, 2020 at 1:12:35 PM UTC-4, TimR wrote:
On Friday, April 17, 2020 at 8:16:35 PM UTC-4, wrote:
bonded concrete deck and an in ground swimming pool. The current on
the transformer ground at the street in front of my house is 0.3 amps
but I have almost 3 on my grounding electrode conductor. (with the
main breaker off). I don't have any stray voltage around my house that

Interesting. Presumably you're not paying for those 3 amps, so it's free power!


It's not free, it's still flowing through the meter.





He said the main breaker is off, so how can it flow through the meter ?

Good point, I missed that. It would not be metered then.



I really wonder how there can be any current at all or maybe close to
the .3 amps that is on the one at the transformer.

It would have to be flowing via the neutral from the transformer to the
house, then to ground.



Still with 3 amps on the grounding electrode conductor, I wonder what is
wrong ? That current that should not be there is comming from
somewhere.

Somewhere I am not getting the big picture . I would think the ground
at the transformer at the street and the ground at the house would be
connected with a wire that has a low enough resistance not to allow that
much current. Must be a bad/loose or no connection.

That wire would be the neutral and it;s low resistance. But current will
take that path, plus a smaller amount will go through the ground rods.
Suppose the neighbor has 30A flowing on one hot. Most of that, let's
say 29A will flow via the neighbor's neutral back to the transformer.
But there is the parallel, higher resistance ground path and let's say
1A flows there, from the neighbor's house ground rod, through the earth
back to the ground at the transformer. There is also yet another path,
which is from the neutral at the transformer through the neutral to
Fretwell's house, to his ground rod, through the earth, back to the
neighbor's ground. That could be what he's seeing.

I suspect I am seeing most of the stray current from the primary side.

I forgot about the primary. There have been cases here where homeowners
had outside metal, eg pools, fences, energized with enough stray current
that you could get a small shock. The power company typically claims
they can't find anything wrong either.