[[email protected]]

I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[Oren]

On 16 Sep 2006 14:49:26 -0700, wrote:

I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

You might try to tighten/clean the starter/battery/solenoid cable(s).
The engine will run if it has essentials: fuel, oxygen and fire
(spark)...... Try the web site for B&S.

I have seen a wet blade of grass short my mower when it landed right
on the plug wire and head...pulled if off and fire back up.
--
Oren

"Well, it doesn't happen all the time, but when it happens, it happens constantly."

[Rich256]

wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.


From what you describe it is either the starter or battery. Be real
certain it is not the battery or the starter solenoid before going to
the starter. You need to measure the battery voltage when trying to
crank the engine.

When you say you jumped with a portable power source are you certain it
had a good charge. Jumping from a car battery would work too.

I have to kind of lean towards a weak battery because what you said
about the engine stalling out. A bad starter would not cause that.

[[email protected]]

On 16 Sep 2006 14:49:26 -0700, wrote:

I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

Several things come to mind:

The starter should not be able to cause the engine to stall.
Stopped inline fuel filter.
This engine uses a vacuum driven fuel pump. Check for vacuum hose leak
or fuel pump malfunction.
Check plugs- this engine fires plug to plug.
Put 6 or 8 drops of gas down the carb throat. Replace air filter and
see if it fires.
Have seen the electric blade clutch bearings fragment and lock the
engine as soon as it tried to rev up.
Love my old 18 horse clunker.
--
Mr.E

[mm]

On 16 Sep 2006 14:49:26 -0700, wrote:

I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

Can't solve your problems but a few things:

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I

A fully charged battery is about 12.6 volts. Of course yours is not
fully charged, but you could charge it. Voltage stays near 12 volts
even while a battery is 80% discharged. I forget the math, but it
makes sense.

So the ohter guy is right, that you have to measure the voltage while
you're trying to start the mower. I think it should be at least 11
volts then, but I only have experience with cars, with much bigger
engines.

If you are going to clean the battery cables at their ends, remove
them at each end and use a knife or something to scrape them shiny. I
had a car that, every time I left the lights on and ran the battery
down, wouldn't start even with a jump. First I had to take the
battery cable off the solenoid and scrape it clean, then put it back
on. Later I learned that when it wasn't too tight I could reach my
arm under the car and just twist the cable on the solenoid bolt about
20 degrees, but I only recommend that when your dressed up and on your
way, like I was.

tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help.

The cranking switch? If it cranked a little bit when it was bad,
obviously that switch was good. Also you could have saved a new
switch, unless you had it already, by using a wire with alligator
clips on each end. Just bypass the switch. Radio Shack has a bag of
10. Worth every penny, 5 times every penny.

I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter

I really doubt that. Are you sure it doesn't bolt on at the side,
after slipping up inside the flywheel.

and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

No. So that's what makes it seem like the battery is weak, maybe
just needs a charge or a jump. I would jump from the car. You won't
run out of juice, especially if you run the car occasionally.

Like any starter, don't crank it for more than a couple minutes at a
time or it will get too hot.

What's wrong that made the engine stall is another question. Maybe it
will be fine when it is cold. Check spark plug that it's not fouled.

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[Ether Jones]

wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine.

How old is "older"?? What is the model number of the engine? This
info should be on a nameplate or label somewhere on the engine. There
are different versions of the 180 opposed twin Briggs engines and they
have different ignition systems etc. (Mine is the 16.5 HP with
electronic ignition - no points).

My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

Well, if the engine will barely crank, then you've obviously got a
problem with your battery or your starter motor or your cable
connections or engine friction. BUT... it's difficult to say, without
more detail from you, whether this is a CAUSE or an EFFECT of the
original stalling problem. In other words, your son could easily have
worn out the battery cranking the engine trying to get it started,
because there was something else wrong with the engine.

It is a very common problem, especially with kids, to abuse the
starting system on lawn tractors. They are not designed to crank the
engine for long periods of time. You should never crank the engine
for more than 5 seconds at a time. If the engine does not start within
5 seconds, turn the key off and wait 10 seconds before trying again.
If the engine doesn't start after 3 or 4 tries, FIGURE OUT WHAT'S WRONG
before you burn out the battery.

If the engine doesn't crank when you turn the key, RELEASE THE KEY
IMMEDIATELY. Wait 10 seconds and try again.

The first thing you need to do is fix the cranking problem so that you
can perform further troubleshooting.


I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts.

Simply placing a voltmeter on the battery terminals with no load on the
battery tells you nothing. Even a "dead" battery can read 12 volts
with no load.

Place the voltmeter on the battery terminals and observe the voltage
when someone is cranking the engine. If the voltage drops below 9
volts you've got a problem. Do you have a battery charger? Charge the
battery overnight, and try cranking the engine again in the morning.

Post again after you've tried this.


I tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help.

Please give more details on exactly how you did this, and what kind of
"portable power source" did you use.


One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Highly unlikely.

[Rich256]

mm wrote:
A fully charged battery is about 12.6 volts. Of course yours is not
fully charged, but you could charge it. Voltage stays near 12 volts
even while a battery is 80% discharged. I forget the math, but it
makes sense.

Yeah, voltage is not a good way to measure state of charge. Use a
Hydrometer.

State of charge/voltage (at 80F):


100% = 12.65
75% = 12.45
50% = 12.24
25% = 12.06
0% = 11.89

[Stubby]

lid wrote:
On 16 Sep 2006 14:49:26 -0700, wrote:

I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

Several things come to mind:

The starter should not be able to cause the engine to stall.
Stopped inline fuel filter.
This engine uses a vacuum driven fuel pump. Check for vacuum hose leak
or fuel pump malfunction.
Check plugs- this engine fires plug to plug.
Put 6 or 8 drops of gas down the carb throat. Replace air filter and
see if it fires.
Have seen the electric blade clutch bearings fragment and lock the
engine as soon as it tried to rev up.
Love my old 18 horse clunker.

Ditto. My chariot is 17 years old.

Try some "Starter Fluid" from an auto parts store. It's ether and will
usually start an engine. Replace the fuel filter. I had a car that
would stall out going up steep hills or going at 70 mph for a few
minutes. The problem was the fuel filter was letting only a trickle get
through to the carburetor; consequently, the car would die after the
fuel in the bowl in the carb was used.

[Ether Jones]

Stubby wrote:

Try some "Starter Fluid" from an auto parts store. It's ether and will
usually start an engine.

True, except the OP said the engine will "barely crank". Ether may not
start an engine in that condition. He needs to fix the cranking
problem first.


Replace the fuel filter. I had a car that
would stall out going up steep hills or going at 70 mph for a few
minutes. The problem was the fuel filter was letting only a trickle get
through to the carburetor; consequently, the car would die after the
fuel in the bowl in the carb was used.

The carb on the Briggs 180 opposed twin L-head engine is extremely
sensitive to contamination. Use utmost care if you decide to replace
the fuel filter. Use a toothbrush and a vacuum cleaner to clean the
locations you intend to disconnect. Then spray with WD40 and wipe with
clean lint-free cloth. If you replace the fuel line, be absolutely
certain the new fuel line is clean inside. There may be manufacturing
debris inside it. Use a flashlight to inspect. Hold the flashlight
on one end, and look through the other end. If you see any debris,
rinse it thoroughly with kerosene or mineral spirits before installing.


Parts for many Briggs engines can be found in the garden center of
WalMart, since WalMart sells MTD tractors which use Briggs engines.
You can buy spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, oil filters,
blades, and belts there.

[[email protected]]

I have not gotten the mower starter yet, but I think I am getting
closer to finding the problem. Here is an update: First, Ether Jones
asked for the model number. It is 422707. It is a 1993 tractor.
Second, many of you suggested that the problem might be a weak
battery. I took the battery to the local parts store and they tested
it under load. The battery was partially discharged. They charged it
up again and tested it. The battery tested ok
When I reconnected the recharged battery, there was improvement.
Before, the engine just barely cranked. Now it is cranking better, but
still weakly. In fact, it was sufficently weak to cause me to think
that the problem is still with the electrical system/starter system as
opposed to a fuel problem.
The person at the parts store suggested that I run a test by
attaching the negative battery cable to the battery, but before
connecting the positive cable, I should put one prong of the
multi-meter on the battery post and the other on the positive battery
cable. I did this. The multimeter showed a volts reading of about
one-half a volt. I understand that a non-zero reading means that there
is a short somewhere in the electrical system.
Is this likely where the problem is? If so, how exactly do I locate
the short. I am thinking that I need to disconnect parts of the
wiring one by one until the multimeter reads zero. When this happens,
the disconnected wire would be where the short is. Is this right? If
so, where should I start?
Also, one reply suggested that engine friction might be the problem
or a contributing problem. I can turn the flywheel by hand. Is there
a way to determine whether the friction is excessive or is this
something mechanics just have feel for through experience? It did not
feel excessive to me, but I don't know how turning the crankshaft would
feel on a new engine.
I appreciate everyone who has left comments. I have found them to
be very helpful. I am hopeful that with a little more help, I can get
this thing fixed.


wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[Ether Jones]

wrote:
I have not gotten the mower starter yet, but I think I am getting
closer to finding the problem. Here is an update: First, Ether Jones
asked for the model number. It is 422707. It is a 1993 tractor.

You have the same engine as I do, only quite a bit older. Mine has
electronic ignition, but yours probably has a mechanical ignition
system (points and condenser). Please provide the Type and Code
numbers as well. They should be on the same label.


Second, many of you suggested that the problem might be a weak
battery. I took the battery to the local parts store and they tested
it under load. The battery was partially discharged. They charged it
up again and tested it. The battery tested ok
When I reconnected the recharged battery, there was improvement.
Before, the engine just barely cranked. Now it is cranking better, but
still weakly.

So, put your voltmeter across the battery terminals and tell us what
the voltage is while the engine is cranking. Re-post when you have
this info. I hope you haven't cranked it so much that you've worn the
battery down again.


In fact, it was sufficently weak to cause me to think
that the problem is still with the electrical system/starter system as
opposed to a fuel problem.

You say "the" problem. It is likely that you have more than one
problem.

Your original problem was that the engine was running but then stalled.
This probably has nothing at all to do with your slow-cranking
problem.

Disconnect the wires and remove the spark plugs. Try cranking the
engine with the plugs removed. It should crank quite fast (because
it's not fighting engine compression). Re-post after you've run this
test and tell us the results. If it does not crank fast, you've either
got a bad starter motor, or bad cable connections, or a serious
friction problem in the engine. (Or a bad battery, but you said the
person at the parts store tested it).


The person at the parts store suggested that I run a test by
attaching the negative battery cable to the battery, but before
connecting the positive cable, I should put one prong of the
multi-meter on the battery post and the other on the positive battery
cable. I did this. The multimeter showed a volts reading of about
one-half a volt. I understand that a non-zero reading means that there
is a short somewhere in the electrical system.
Is this likely where the problem is?

No.

If so, how exactly do I locate
the short.

You probably don't have a short.

I am thinking that I need to disconnect parts of the
wiring one by one until the multimeter reads zero. When this happens,
the disconnected wire would be where the short is. Is this right? If
so, where should I start?
Also, one reply suggested that engine friction might be the problem
or a contributing problem. I can turn the flywheel by hand. Is there
a way to determine whether the friction is excessive

run the test above with the spark plugs removed.

or is this
something mechanics just have feel for through experience? It did not
feel excessive to me, but I don't know how turning the crankshaft would
feel on a new engine.
I appreciate everyone who has left comments. I have found them to
be very helpful. I am hopeful that with a little more help, I can get
this thing fixed.

wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[PaulD]

Ok. Here is some more information:

1) Model 427707; Type 1522 01 Code: 9301235B

2) I cranked the engine with the multimeter touching the positive and
negative battery posts. The volts dropped to a little above 10 volts.

3) With the spark plugs removed, the engine turned rapidly.

I appreciate your expertise. What's next? Thanks

Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
I have not gotten the mower starter yet, but I think I am getting
closer to finding the problem. Here is an update: First, Ether Jones
asked for the model number. It is 422707. It is a 1993 tractor.

You have the same engine as I do, only quite a bit older. Mine has
electronic ignition, but yours probably has a mechanical ignition
system (points and condenser). Please provide the Type and Code
numbers as well. They should be on the same label.


Second, many of you suggested that the problem might be a weak
battery. I took the battery to the local parts store and they tested
it under load. The battery was partially discharged. They charged it
up again and tested it. The battery tested ok
When I reconnected the recharged battery, there was improvement.
Before, the engine just barely cranked. Now it is cranking better, but
still weakly.

So, put your voltmeter across the battery terminals and tell us what
the voltage is while the engine is cranking. Re-post when you have
this info. I hope you haven't cranked it so much that you've worn the
battery down again.


In fact, it was sufficently weak to cause me to think
that the problem is still with the electrical system/starter system as
opposed to a fuel problem.

You say "the" problem. It is likely that you have more than one
problem.

Your original problem was that the engine was running but then stalled.
This probably has nothing at all to do with your slow-cranking
problem.

Disconnect the wires and remove the spark plugs. Try cranking the
engine with the plugs removed. It should crank quite fast (because
it's not fighting engine compression). Re-post after you've run this
test and tell us the results. If it does not crank fast, you've either
got a bad starter motor, or bad cable connections, or a serious
friction problem in the engine. (Or a bad battery, but you said the
person at the parts store tested it).


The person at the parts store suggested that I run a test by
attaching the negative battery cable to the battery, but before
connecting the positive cable, I should put one prong of the
multi-meter on the battery post and the other on the positive battery
cable. I did this. The multimeter showed a volts reading of about
one-half a volt. I understand that a non-zero reading means that there
is a short somewhere in the electrical system.
Is this likely where the problem is?

No.

If so, how exactly do I locate
the short.

You probably don't have a short.

I am thinking that I need to disconnect parts of the
wiring one by one until the multimeter reads zero. When this happens,
the disconnected wire would be where the short is. Is this right? If
so, where should I start?
Also, one reply suggested that engine friction might be the problem
or a contributing problem. I can turn the flywheel by hand. Is there
a way to determine whether the friction is excessive

run the test above with the spark plugs removed.

or is this
something mechanics just have feel for through experience? It did not
feel excessive to me, but I don't know how turning the crankshaft would
feel on a new engine.
I appreciate everyone who has left comments. I have found them to
be very helpful. I am hopeful that with a little more help, I can get
this thing fixed.

wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[PaulD]

Sorry, about how this is posted. I meant it as a follow up to the
posts down lower by the same title. Go there for the full story
PaulD wrote:
Ok. Here is some more information:

1) Model 427707; Type 1522 01 Code: 9301235B

2) I cranked the engine with the multimeter touching the positive and
negative battery posts. The volts dropped to a little above 10 volts.

3) With the spark plugs removed, the engine turned rapidly.

I appreciate your expertise. What's next? Thanks

Ether Jones wrote:
wrote:
I have not gotten the mower starter yet, but I think I am getting
closer to finding the problem. Here is an update: First, Ether Jones
asked for the model number. It is 422707. It is a 1993 tractor.

You have the same engine as I do, only quite a bit older. Mine has
electronic ignition, but yours probably has a mechanical ignition
system (points and condenser). Please provide the Type and Code
numbers as well. They should be on the same label.


Second, many of you suggested that the problem might be a weak
battery. I took the battery to the local parts store and they tested
it under load. The battery was partially discharged. They charged it
up again and tested it. The battery tested ok
When I reconnected the recharged battery, there was improvement.
Before, the engine just barely cranked. Now it is cranking better, but
still weakly.

So, put your voltmeter across the battery terminals and tell us what
the voltage is while the engine is cranking. Re-post when you have
this info. I hope you haven't cranked it so much that you've worn the
battery down again.


In fact, it was sufficently weak to cause me to think
that the problem is still with the electrical system/starter system as
opposed to a fuel problem.

You say "the" problem. It is likely that you have more than one
problem.

Your original problem was that the engine was running but then stalled.
This probably has nothing at all to do with your slow-cranking
problem.

Disconnect the wires and remove the spark plugs. Try cranking the
engine with the plugs removed. It should crank quite fast (because
it's not fighting engine compression). Re-post after you've run this
test and tell us the results. If it does not crank fast, you've either
got a bad starter motor, or bad cable connections, or a serious
friction problem in the engine. (Or a bad battery, but you said the
person at the parts store tested it).


The person at the parts store suggested that I run a test by
attaching the negative battery cable to the battery, but before
connecting the positive cable, I should put one prong of the
multi-meter on the battery post and the other on the positive battery
cable. I did this. The multimeter showed a volts reading of about
one-half a volt. I understand that a non-zero reading means that there
is a short somewhere in the electrical system.
Is this likely where the problem is?

No.

If so, how exactly do I locate
the short.

You probably don't have a short.

I am thinking that I need to disconnect parts of the
wiring one by one until the multimeter reads zero. When this happens,
the disconnected wire would be where the short is. Is this right? If
so, where should I start?
Also, one reply suggested that engine friction might be the problem
or a contributing problem. I can turn the flywheel by hand. Is there
a way to determine whether the friction is excessive

run the test above with the spark plugs removed.

or is this
something mechanics just have feel for through experience? It did not
feel excessive to me, but I don't know how turning the crankshaft would
feel on a new engine.
I appreciate everyone who has left comments. I have found them to
be very helpful. I am hopeful that with a little more help, I can get
this thing fixed.

wrote:
I have an older Sears Craftsman lawn tractor with a 180 opposed twin
cylinder Briggs and Stratton Engine. My son was cutting the lawn with
it the other day and it gradually stalled out on him. He started it
up again, but it quickly stalled out again. Now the engine will barely
crank and will not start.

I checked the battery with a multi-meter and it tested at 12 volts. I
tried jumping it with a portable power source and this did not help. I
tried a new on/off switch and this did not help. I removed the cover
and I can turn the flywheel by hand without difficulty. The oil level
appears to be ok.

Any suggestions of what I should do next. I don't have much
experience with engine repair, but due to the tractor's age I don't
think it would be worth taking to a repair shop. So I willing to take
a shot at home repair.

From what I've read I am thinking the starter engine might be the
problem. One internet source suggested jumping the starter directly
from the battery. I am willing to try this, but it appears on my mower
that I need to first need to remove the flywheel to get to the starter
and this looks like a major undertaking, especially given the age of
the engine.
Is the starter where I should start or are there other things I
should or could check first? One question I have is whether a problem
in the starter would have caused the engine to stall out after it was
already going?

Any other suggestions on how to troubleshoot this issue? I do have a
basic Briggs and Stratton manual for the engine on a CD-Rom, but it
does not contain alot of trouble shooting info (at least that was
helpful to me) on the starter/electrical system. It is helpful,
however, on assembly and disassembly issues.

[John Lawrence]

Pray tell what this has to do with difficulty in cranking?
"Ether Jones" wrote in message
ps.com...

Stubby wrote:

Try some "Starter Fluid" from an auto parts store. It's ether and will
usually start an engine.

True, except the OP said the engine will "barely crank". Ether may not
start an engine in that condition. He needs to fix the cranking
problem first.


Replace the fuel filter. I had a car that
would stall out going up steep hills or going at 70 mph for a few
minutes. The problem was the fuel filter was letting only a trickle get
through to the carburetor; consequently, the car would die after the
fuel in the bowl in the carb was used.

The carb on the Briggs 180 opposed twin L-head engine is extremely
sensitive to contamination. Use utmost care if you decide to replace
the fuel filter. Use a toothbrush and a vacuum cleaner to clean the
locations you intend to disconnect. Then spray with WD40 and wipe with
clean lint-free cloth. If you replace the fuel line, be absolutely
certain the new fuel line is clean inside. There may be manufacturing
debris inside it. Use a flashlight to inspect. Hold the flashlight
on one end, and look through the other end. If you see any debris,
rinse it thoroughly with kerosene or mineral spirits before installing.


Parts for many Briggs engines can be found in the garden center of
WalMart, since WalMart sells MTD tractors which use Briggs engines.
You can buy spark plugs, air filters, fuel filters, oil filters,
blades, and belts there.

[Ether Jones]

John Lawrence wrote:
Pray tell what this has to do with difficulty in cranking?

Top-posting makes it quite difficult to discern the context of your
query. What does the pronoun "this" refer to?

[Ether Jones]

PaulD wrote:
Ok. Here is some more information:

1) Model 427707; Type 1522 01 Code: 9301235B

Your engine was manufactured January 23, 1993 in the same facility
where mine was made.

Judging from the Type number, I think you have electronic ignition, not
breaker points (this is a Good Thing).

2) I cranked the engine with the multimeter touching the positive and
negative battery posts. The volts dropped to a little above 10 volts.

Well, the battery appears to be OK.

3) With the spark plugs removed, the engine turned rapidly.

The rapid cranking would seem to rule out a friction problem in the
engine.

It's still possible that you have a bad valve but let's set that aside
for the moment.

The most likely cause of the slow cranking would seem to be either:

- a bad starter motor, or

- bad connections in the cables between the battery and the starter
motor.

By the way, when you removed the plugs, what did the tips look like?
Were they a light tan and/or gray color with no evidence of cracking or
corrosion, or were they black and/or cruddy and/or corroded? It's
worth the small expense to go ahead and replace them with new ones if
there's any question.

I appreciate your expertise. What's next? Thanks

I'd suggest checking for bad cable connections first. To do this,
re-install the spark plugs before proceeding.

You want to check the circuit going from the battery to the starter
motor (and back) looking for a bad connection. You can detect a bad
connection without taking anything apart by using your voltmeter. A
bad connection will have a voltage drop across it when the engine is
cranking. A good connection will have very little or no voltage drop
across it. The voltage drop is caused by the current pushing through
the resistance in the bad connection (V=IR).

Proceed as follows: The starter motor on this engine has only one
electrical terminal - the positive terminal. On my tractor (White
equipment), it is easily accessed without removing anything. Put one
voltmeter lead on this terminal. Touch the other voltmeter lead to
engine ground (cooling fins would be a good choice). Make sure the
voltmeter leads are making good contact. Have a helper crank the
engine, and check the voltage reading. It should be the same as the
reading you got when you had the voltmeter across the battery with the
engine cranking:

- If the voltage IS the same (and 10 volts or greater), it would
normally indicate that your starter motor has a problem since it's
getting the proper voltage but isn't cranking properly. But... this
wouldn't explain your original problem why your engine stalled. So...
was your engine happily cranking just fine until this stalling problem
occurred? If so, it's probably not the starter motor - you may have a
bad valve. This can be tested but requires compression gage. Post
again when you get this far.

- If the voltage is NOT the same, then you have a bad cable connection
somewhere. Hopefully this is all it is. Post your results when you
get this far and we'll go from there.

If you can't access the starter motor terminal, you can at least
easily check the ground half of the circuit. Re-post and I'll tell you
how.

[PaulD]

I've got a busy day ahead so I may not get to this for another day
or two. I did think that the spark plugs looked questionable, so I
will go ahead and replace them.
I would comment that since that battery was recharged, the engine
is cranking better. Again, it is weak cranking, but it is much better
than what I previously described as "barely cranking" at all.
One thing that I had not mentioned before that may be relevant.
Before all this occurred, I occasionally had the following happen. I
would turn on the engine and it would not crank. I waited a few
seconds and tried again. The engine started, no problem. This was
very intermittent
Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:
Ok. Here is some more information:

1) Model 427707; Type 1522 01 Code: 9301235B

Your engine was manufactured January 23, 1993 in the same facility
where mine was made.

Judging from the Type number, I think you have electronic ignition, not
breaker points (this is a Good Thing).

2) I cranked the engine with the multimeter touching the positive and
negative battery posts. The volts dropped to a little above 10 volts.

Well, the battery appears to be OK.

3) With the spark plugs removed, the engine turned rapidly.

The rapid cranking would seem to rule out a friction problem in the
engine.

It's still possible that you have a bad valve but let's set that aside
for the moment.

The most likely cause of the slow cranking would seem to be either:

- a bad starter motor, or

- bad connections in the cables between the battery and the starter
motor.

By the way, when you removed the plugs, what did the tips look like?
Were they a light tan and/or gray color with no evidence of cracking or
corrosion, or were they black and/or cruddy and/or corroded? It's
worth the small expense to go ahead and replace them with new ones if
there's any question.

I appreciate your expertise. What's next? Thanks

I'd suggest checking for bad cable connections first. To do this,
re-install the spark plugs before proceeding.

You want to check the circuit going from the battery to the starter
motor (and back) looking for a bad connection. You can detect a bad
connection without taking anything apart by using your voltmeter. A
bad connection will have a voltage drop across it when the engine is
cranking. A good connection will have very little or no voltage drop
across it. The voltage drop is caused by the current pushing through
the resistance in the bad connection (V=IR).

Proceed as follows: The starter motor on this engine has only one
electrical terminal - the positive terminal. On my tractor (White
equipment), it is easily accessed without removing anything. Put one
voltmeter lead on this terminal. Touch the other voltmeter lead to
engine ground (cooling fins would be a good choice). Make sure the
voltmeter leads are making good contact. Have a helper crank the
engine, and check the voltage reading. It should be the same as the
reading you got when you had the voltmeter across the battery with the
engine cranking:

- If the voltage IS the same (and 10 volts or greater), it would
normally indicate that your starter motor has a problem since it's
getting the proper voltage but isn't cranking properly. But... this
wouldn't explain your original problem why your engine stalled. So...
was your engine happily cranking just fine until this stalling problem
occurred? If so, it's probably not the starter motor - you may have a
bad valve. This can be tested but requires compression gage. Post
again when you get this far.

- If the voltage is NOT the same, then you have a bad cable connection
somewhere. Hopefully this is all it is. Post your results when you
get this far and we'll go from there.

If you can't access the starter motor terminal, you can at least
easily check the ground half of the circuit. Re-post and I'll tell you
how.

[John Lawrence]

"this" refered to fuel filters and carberators.
"Ether Jones" wrote in message
ups.com...

John Lawrence wrote:
Pray tell what this has to do with difficulty in cranking?

Top-posting makes it quite difficult to discern the context of your
query. What does the pronoun "this" refer to?

[Ether Jones]

John Lawrence wrote:

"this" refered to fuel filters and carberators.

The reader has no way of knowing what you meant since top-posting
removes the connection between your pronouns and their associated
nouns. That's one reason why most usenet users dislike top-posting.

Please re-read the post. Fuel filters and carburetors have nothing to
do with the cranking problem. They may, however be related to the
stalling problem.

[Ether Jones]

PaulD wrote:
I've got a busy day ahead so I may not get to this for another day
or two. I did think that the spark plugs looked questionable, so I
will go ahead and replace them.
I would comment that since that battery was recharged, the engine
is cranking better. Again, it is weak cranking, but it is much better
than what I previously described as "barely cranking" at all.

Was the engine cranking strongly right up to the point when the
stalling episode occurred, or was the cranking speed deteriorating
slowly over the period preceding the stalling episode?

One thing that I had not mentioned before that may be relevant.
Before all this occurred, I occasionally had the following happen. I
would turn on the engine and it would not crank. I waited a few
seconds and tried again. The engine started, no problem. This was
very intermittent

This can be a sign of a weak battery, or bad cable connections, or a
starter motor starting to go bad. You said you had the battery
checked out, so I will assume they checked it properly and it is OK.
The troubleshooting procedures mentioned in the previous post should
help isolate it to either a cable problem or a starter problem.

However, as long as you have the plugs out, you should try one more
thing to help eliminate another possibility (valve problem). Make
sure the plug wires are far away from the spark plug holes and well
grounded so that there are no sparks. Have a helper crank the engine,
and put your thumb over each spark plug hole. You should feel
alternating compression and suction in each hole, and they should feel
the same. If they feel different, or you don't feel both compression
and suction, you've got a more serious problem inside the engine.

[John Lawrence]

I hear you.
"Ether Jones" wrote in message
oups.com...

John Lawrence wrote:

"this" refered to fuel filters and carberators.

The reader has no way of knowing what you meant since top-posting
removes the connection between your pronouns and their associated
nouns. That's one reason why most usenet users dislike top-posting.

Please re-read the post. Fuel filters and carburetors have nothing to
do with the cranking problem. They may, however be related to the
stalling problem.

[PaulD]

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal. I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.
Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel. I gently moved it by hand a few times. This seemed to
resolve the problem.


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:
I've got a busy day ahead so I may not get to this for another day
or two. I did think that the spark plugs looked questionable, so I
will go ahead and replace them.
I would comment that since that battery was recharged, the engine
is cranking better. Again, it is weak cranking, but it is much better
than what I previously described as "barely cranking" at all.

Was the engine cranking strongly right up to the point when the
stalling episode occurred, or was the cranking speed deteriorating
slowly over the period preceding the stalling episode?

One thing that I had not mentioned before that may be relevant.
Before all this occurred, I occasionally had the following happen. I
would turn on the engine and it would not crank. I waited a few
seconds and tried again. The engine started, no problem. This was
very intermittent

This can be a sign of a weak battery, or bad cable connections, or a
starter motor starting to go bad. You said you had the battery
checked out, so I will assume they checked it properly and it is OK.
The troubleshooting procedures mentioned in the previous post should
help isolate it to either a cable problem or a starter problem.

However, as long as you have the plugs out, you should try one more
thing to help eliminate another possibility (valve problem). Make
sure the plug wires are far away from the spark plug holes and well
grounded so that there are no sparks. Have a helper crank the engine,
and put your thumb over each spark plug hole. You should feel
alternating compression and suction in each hole, and they should feel
the same. If they feel different, or you don't feel both compression
and suction, you've got a more serious problem inside the engine.

[MLD]

9 volts when it should be 12 volts. That's a 25% loss--I would consider it
to be significant. If the battery is at 12 volts can you go directly from
the battery to the starter terminal using another lead (disconnect the
original lead to get it out of the system). For example, use a jumper cable
to make the connection. If the voltage still drops to 9 then consider it a
battery problem. If so, can you use the jumper cables to go from your car
battery to the tractor battery to verify?
MLD
"PaulD" wrote in message
ps.com...
Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal. I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.
Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel. I gently moved it by hand a few times. This seemed to
resolve the problem.


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:
I've got a busy day ahead so I may not get to this for another day
or two. I did think that the spark plugs looked questionable, so I
will go ahead and replace them.
I would comment that since that battery was recharged, the engine
is cranking better. Again, it is weak cranking, but it is much
better
than what I previously described as "barely cranking" at all.

Was the engine cranking strongly right up to the point when the
stalling episode occurred, or was the cranking speed deteriorating
slowly over the period preceding the stalling episode?

One thing that I had not mentioned before that may be relevant.
Before all this occurred, I occasionally had the following happen. I
would turn on the engine and it would not crank. I waited a few
seconds and tried again. The engine started, no problem. This was
very intermittent

This can be a sign of a weak battery, or bad cable connections, or a
starter motor starting to go bad. You said you had the battery
checked out, so I will assume they checked it properly and it is OK.
The troubleshooting procedures mentioned in the previous post should
help isolate it to either a cable problem or a starter problem.

However, as long as you have the plugs out, you should try one more
thing to help eliminate another possibility (valve problem). Make
sure the plug wires are far away from the spark plug holes and well
grounded so that there are no sparks. Have a helper crank the engine,
and put your thumb over each spark plug hole. You should feel
alternating compression and suction in each hole, and they should feel
the same. If they feel different, or you don't feel both compression
and suction, you've got a more serious problem inside the engine.

[Ether Jones]

MLD wrote:

9 volts when it should be 12 volts. That's a 25% loss--I would consider it
to be significant. If the battery is at 12 volts can you go directly from
the battery to the starter terminal using another lead (disconnect the
original lead to get it out of the system). For example, use a jumper cable
to make the connection. If the voltage still drops to 9 then consider it a
battery problem.

Substantial drop in voltage at the battery under load is normal. 9
volts is at the low end of acceptable for a 12 volt system but still
acceptable.

PaulD already measured the voltage at the battery and gave that info in
a prior post. It was 10 volts, which is entirely normal. You might
want to read the rest of the thread to catch up on other details. The
test he reported on here was the voltage reading at the starter motor.
The purpose was to determine if the voltage at the starter motor (under
load) was the same as the voltage at the battery (under load). It
should be nearly so, if the cabling and connections are in good shape.

10 volts at the battery, and 9 volts at the starter seems to indicate a
problem in the cable connections.

[Ether Jones]

PaulD wrote:

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal.

By the way, it's a starter motor, not a starter engine.

I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

You ran this test with the plugs installed, is that right? It's
important. If you got 9 volts at the starter with the plugs removed,
and you got 10 volts at the battery with the plugs installed, then it
seems likely that you have a problem of some sort with the cabling
between the battery and starter motor.

If the 9 volt reading was with the plugs installed, it's less
definitive but still suggests a cable problem. I would have expected
the reading to be closer to the same reading you said you got at the
battery terminals: slightly over 10 volts. But perhaps you've worn
the battery down a bit with all this cranking, and the voltage at the
battery is now only 9 volts. It would be good to check it quickly
again to make sure it's still 10 volts there. It's the difference
between the two readings that's significant.

Assuming the two readings are indeed different, you can try to locate
the cable problem. First test the ground half of the
battery-to-starter cabling: connect one voltmeter lead to the negative
battery post, and the other lead to engine ground (cooling fins).
Make sure the plugs are installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have
a clean contact. Crank the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It
should be zero or nearly so. If you get a non-zero reading, it
indicates abnormal resistance in the ground side of the connection.
Make sure your voltmeter leads have good contact. You may get an
erroneous "zero" reading if your leads are not firmly in contact with
good clean metal.

Second, test the positive half of the battery-to-starter cabling:
connect one voltmeter lead to the positive battery post, and the other
lead to the starter motor positive terminal. Make sure the plugs are
installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have a clean contact. Crank
the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It should be zero or nearly
so. If you get a non-zero reading, it indicates abnormal resistance in
the positive side of the connection. Make sure your voltmeter leads
have good contact. You may get an erroneous "zero" reading if your
leads are not firmly in contact with good clean metal.



I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I have the service manual right here for the model 422707 Briggs
engine. The starter motor only has one terminal. I'm not sure what
you're referring to.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

This is one of those tests where if you did NOT feel alternating
compression and suction it would definitely indicate a problem; but if
you DO get alternating compression and suction the test is not
definitive (there could still be a problem - only by using a
compression gauge could you be sure). Let's assume for the time being
that the valves are OK, although that's not a sure bet.


My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the starter motor
cranking. Were you noticing increasingly "weak" starter motor cranking
in the days (or weeks) leading up to the stalling incident, or did the
weak cranking manifest itself suddenly right after the stalling
incident?


Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.

It's probably normal but I wouldn't swear by it. Depends on how many
times "a number of times" is, and how long each time lasted. Sounds
like the battery was getting quite a workout. In view of this, it
might be good to re-check the voltage across the battery to see if it
is still 10 volts (engine cranking with plugs installed). Since the
whole purpose of measuring the voltage at the starter was to compare it
to the voltage reading at the battery, this is important.

Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel.

Did the starter gear ("pinion gear") spin rapidly during those times
when it didn't "pop up"? On an automotive starter motor, this can be
indicative of a low battery. I'm not sure about the starter motor
design on this Briggs engine in this regard.

[PaulD]

I'll follow up tommorrow or the next. I noted the voltage drop the
first time I had the engine cranked so I am fairly certain the battery
was still at full charge. As I continued, I did notice the battery
power was dropping so I put a jump between a car battery and the lawn
mower. Still got a low voltage reading at the starter motor. I'll make
sure the battery is fully charged again before proceeding further with
your suggestions.

I ran all the tests with the plugs installed.

The starter motor has a wire going from it that is attached at the
other end to some type of terminal. Is this the solenoid? I followed
the cable from the starter motor to its other end and tested for a
voltage drop there. I thought this might indicate whether there is a
problem in the cable that leads to the starter motor.

I didn't noticed any problems with slow cranking prior to the stalling
incident, except as indicated earlier about the intermittent behavior.
In some ways it is hard to know whether there was any gradual
deterioation because usually the engine fires up quickly so the starter
does not crank that long. After the stalling incident, however, it
was noticeably very weak (i.e barely cranking).


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal.

By the way, it's a starter motor, not a starter engine.

I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

You ran this test with the plugs installed, is that right? It's
important. If you got 9 volts at the starter with the plugs removed,
and you got 10 volts at the battery with the plugs installed, then it
seems likely that you have a problem of some sort with the cabling
between the battery and starter motor.

If the 9 volt reading was with the plugs installed, it's less
definitive but still suggests a cable problem. I would have expected
the reading to be closer to the same reading you said you got at the
battery terminals: slightly over 10 volts. But perhaps you've worn
the battery down a bit with all this cranking, and the voltage at the
battery is now only 9 volts. It would be good to check it quickly
again to make sure it's still 10 volts there. It's the difference
between the two readings that's significant.

Assuming the two readings are indeed different, you can try to locate
the cable problem. First test the ground half of the
battery-to-starter cabling: connect one voltmeter lead to the negative
battery post, and the other lead to engine ground (cooling fins).
Make sure the plugs are installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have
a clean contact. Crank the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It
should be zero or nearly so. If you get a non-zero reading, it
indicates abnormal resistance in the ground side of the connection.
Make sure your voltmeter leads have good contact. You may get an
erroneous "zero" reading if your leads are not firmly in contact with
good clean metal.

Second, test the positive half of the battery-to-starter cabling:
connect one voltmeter lead to the positive battery post, and the other
lead to the starter motor positive terminal. Make sure the plugs are
installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have a clean contact. Crank
the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It should be zero or nearly
so. If you get a non-zero reading, it indicates abnormal resistance in
the positive side of the connection. Make sure your voltmeter leads
have good contact. You may get an erroneous "zero" reading if your
leads are not firmly in contact with good clean metal.



I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I have the service manual right here for the model 422707 Briggs
engine. The starter motor only has one terminal. I'm not sure what
you're referring to.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

This is one of those tests where if you did NOT feel alternating
compression and suction it would definitely indicate a problem; but if
you DO get alternating compression and suction the test is not
definitive (there could still be a problem - only by using a
compression gauge could you be sure). Let's assume for the time being
that the valves are OK, although that's not a sure bet.


My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the starter motor
cranking. Were you noticing increasingly "weak" starter motor cranking
in the days (or weeks) leading up to the stalling incident, or did the
weak cranking manifest itself suddenly right after the stalling
incident?


Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.

It's probably normal but I wouldn't swear by it. Depends on how many
times "a number of times" is, and how long each time lasted. Sounds
like the battery was getting quite a workout. In view of this, it
might be good to re-check the voltage across the battery to see if it
is still 10 volts (engine cranking with plugs installed). Since the
whole purpose of measuring the voltage at the starter was to compare it
to the voltage reading at the battery, this is important.

Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel.

Did the starter gear ("pinion gear") spin rapidly during those times
when it didn't "pop up"? On an automotive starter motor, this can be
indicative of a low battery. I'm not sure about the starter motor
design on this Briggs engine in this regard.

[Ether Jones]

PaulD wrote:

I'll follow up tommorrow or the next. I noted the voltage drop the
first time I had the engine cranked so I am fairly certain the battery
was still at full charge. As I continued, I did notice the battery
power was dropping so I put a jump between a car battery and the lawn
mower. Still got a low voltage reading at the starter motor. I'll make
sure the battery is fully charged again before proceeding further with
your suggestions.

I ran all the tests with the plugs installed.

The starter motor has a wire going from it that is attached at the
other end to some type of terminal. Is this the solenoid?

It is the relay. When you turn the key, the electrical switch in the
key activates the relay, which completes the circuit to provide power
to the starter motor. The relay is designed to handle the large
current; the key switch is not.

If you test the ground side of the circuit as described in the prior
post, and you get a zero reading, and then you test the positive side
and get a non-zero reading, then you can start working your voltmeter
lead backwards from the starter motor terminal until you cease to get a
non-zero reading (with the other voltmeter lead always on the battery
positive terminal post). That will isolate where the problem is. It
could be a bad relay, or a loose or corroded connection, or a wire with
several strands broken internally.

Again, this only addresses the weak cranking. It doesn't address why
the engine stalled. The stalled engine could be due to spark, fuel, or
compression (bad plugs, bad ignition system, clogged fuel filter,
clogged air filter, carburetor problem, bad gasoline, valves, etc).
Once you get the engine cranking properly, you can troubleshoot that.


I followed
the cable from the starter motor to its other end and tested for a
voltage drop there. I thought this might indicate whether there is a
problem in the cable that leads to the starter motor.

I didn't noticed any problems with slow cranking prior to the stalling
incident, except as indicated earlier about the intermittent behavior.
In some ways it is hard to know whether there was any gradual
deterioation because usually the engine fires up quickly so the starter
does not crank that long. After the stalling incident, however, it
was noticeably very weak (i.e barely cranking).


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal.

By the way, it's a starter motor, not a starter engine.

I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

You ran this test with the plugs installed, is that right? It's
important. If you got 9 volts at the starter with the plugs removed,
and you got 10 volts at the battery with the plugs installed, then it
seems likely that you have a problem of some sort with the cabling
between the battery and starter motor.

If the 9 volt reading was with the plugs installed, it's less
definitive but still suggests a cable problem. I would have expected
the reading to be closer to the same reading you said you got at the
battery terminals: slightly over 10 volts. But perhaps you've worn
the battery down a bit with all this cranking, and the voltage at the
battery is now only 9 volts. It would be good to check it quickly
again to make sure it's still 10 volts there. It's the difference
between the two readings that's significant.

Assuming the two readings are indeed different, you can try to locate
the cable problem. First test the ground half of the
battery-to-starter cabling: connect one voltmeter lead to the negative
battery post, and the other lead to engine ground (cooling fins).
Make sure the plugs are installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have
a clean contact. Crank the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It
should be zero or nearly so. If you get a non-zero reading, it
indicates abnormal resistance in the ground side of the connection.
Make sure your voltmeter leads have good contact. You may get an
erroneous "zero" reading if your leads are not firmly in contact with
good clean metal.

Second, test the positive half of the battery-to-starter cabling:
connect one voltmeter lead to the positive battery post, and the other
lead to the starter motor positive terminal. Make sure the plugs are
installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have a clean contact. Crank
the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It should be zero or nearly
so. If you get a non-zero reading, it indicates abnormal resistance in
the positive side of the connection. Make sure your voltmeter leads
have good contact. You may get an erroneous "zero" reading if your
leads are not firmly in contact with good clean metal.



I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I have the service manual right here for the model 422707 Briggs
engine. The starter motor only has one terminal. I'm not sure what
you're referring to.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

This is one of those tests where if you did NOT feel alternating
compression and suction it would definitely indicate a problem; but if
you DO get alternating compression and suction the test is not
definitive (there could still be a problem - only by using a
compression gauge could you be sure). Let's assume for the time being
that the valves are OK, although that's not a sure bet.


My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the starter motor
cranking. Were you noticing increasingly "weak" starter motor cranking
in the days (or weeks) leading up to the stalling incident, or did the
weak cranking manifest itself suddenly right after the stalling
incident?


Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.

It's probably normal but I wouldn't swear by it. Depends on how many
times "a number of times" is, and how long each time lasted. Sounds
like the battery was getting quite a workout. In view of this, it
might be good to re-check the voltage across the battery to see if it
is still 10 volts (engine cranking with plugs installed). Since the
whole purpose of measuring the voltage at the starter was to compare it
to the voltage reading at the battery, this is important.

Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel.

Did the starter gear ("pinion gear") spin rapidly during those times
when it didn't "pop up"? On an automotive starter motor, this can be
indicative of a low battery. I'm not sure about the starter motor
design on this Briggs engine in this regard.

[PaulD]

I did some more testing today and got more ambigous results. First, I
had the battery charged up again (local parts store does it for free).
Tested the battery under load one time. Got 10.5 volts. Then I tested
for voltage drop at the starter. This time I got 9.5 volts, a one volt
drop, slightly better than last time
I also tested both sides of the circuit per Ether Jone's suggestion.
On the negative side I got a reading of .25 volts. On the positive
side, I got a reading of about .5 volts.
I'll have a little time off my day job tommorrow to tinker so I'll
take a closer look at the cables and connections and maybe try
replacing one. I thinking at this point, though, the cranking problem
looks like it may be at the starter.
Also, the local parts store will lend me a compression gauge. I
took a look at the CD-ROM manual. It suggested comparing the
compression between the two cylinders and looking for a significant
difference in readings between the two.. Is this the compression test
that you would recommend?

Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

I'll follow up tommorrow or the next. I noted the voltage drop the
first time I had the engine cranked so I am fairly certain the battery
was still at full charge. As I continued, I did notice the battery
power was dropping so I put a jump between a car battery and the lawn
mower. Still got a low voltage reading at the starter motor. I'll make
sure the battery is fully charged again before proceeding further with
your suggestions.

I ran all the tests with the plugs installed.

The starter motor has a wire going from it that is attached at the
other end to some type of terminal. Is this the s olenoid?

It is the relay. When you turn the key, the electrical switch in the
key activates the relay, which completes the circuit to provide power
to the starter motor. The relay is designed to handle the large
current; the key switch is not.

If you test the ground side of the circuit as described in the prior
post, and you get a zero reading, and then you test the positive side
and get a non-zero reading, then you can start working your voltmeter
lead backwards from the starter motor terminal until you cease to get a
non-zero reading (with the other voltmeter lead always on the battery
positive terminal post). That will isolate where the problem is. It
could be a bad relay, or a loose or corroded connection, or a wire with
several strands broken internally.

Again, this only addresses the weak cranking. It doesn't address why
the engine stalled. The stalled engine could be due to spark, fuel, or
compression (bad plugs, bad ignition system, clogged fuel filter,
clogged air filter, carburetor problem, bad gasoline, valves, etc).
Once you get the engine cranking properly, you can troubleshoot that.


I followed
the cable from the starter motor to its other end and tested for a
voltage drop there. I thought this might indicate whether there is a
problem in the cable that leads to the starter motor.

I didn't noticed any problems with slow cranking prior to the stalling
incident, except as indicated earlier about the intermittent behavior.
In some ways it is hard to know whether there was any gradual
deterioation because usually the engine fires up quickly so the starter
does not crank that long. After the stalling incident, however, it
was noticeably very weak (i.e barely cranking).


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter engine
terminal.

By the way, it's a starter motor, not a starter engine.

I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

You ran this test with the plugs installed, is that right? It's
important. If you got 9 volts at the starter with the plugs removed,
and you got 10 volts at the battery with the plugs installed, then it
seems likely that you have a problem of some sort with the cabling
between the battery and starter motor.

If the 9 volt reading was with the plugs installed, it's less
definitive but still suggests a cable problem. I would have expected
the reading to be closer to the same reading you said you got at the
battery terminals: slightly over 10 volts. But perhaps you've worn
the battery down a bit with all this cranking, and the voltage at the
battery is now only 9 volts. It would be good to check it quickly
again to make sure it's still 10 volts there. It's the difference
between the two readings that's significant.

Assuming the two readings are indeed different, you can try to locate
the cable problem. First test the ground half of the
battery-to-starter cabling: connect one voltmeter lead to the negative
battery post, and the other lead to engine ground (cooling fins).
Make sure the plugs are installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have
a clean contact. Crank the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It
should be zero or nearly so. If you get a non-zero reading, it
indicates abnormal resistance in the ground side of the connection.
Make sure your voltmeter leads have good contact. You may get an
erroneous "zero" reading if your leads are not firmly in contact with
good clean metal.

Second, test the positive half of the battery-to-starter cabling:
connect one voltmeter lead to the positive battery post, and the other
lead to the starter motor positive terminal. Make sure the plugs are
installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have a clean contact. Crank
the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It should be zero or nearly
so. If you get a non-zero reading, it indicates abnormal resistance in
the positive side of the connection. Make sure your voltmeter leads
have good contact. You may get an erroneous "zero" reading if your
leads are not firmly in contact with good clean metal.



I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I have the service manual right here for the model 422707 Briggs
engine. The starter motor only has one terminal. I'm not sure what
you're referring to.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

This is one of those tests where if you did NOT feel alternating
compression and suction it would definitely indicate a problem; but if
you DO get alternating compression and suction the test is not
definitive (there could still be a problem - only by using a
compression gauge could you be sure). Let's assume for the time being
that the valves are OK, although that's not a sure bet.


My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the starter motor
cranking. Were you noticing increasingly "weak" starter motor cranking
in the days (or weeks) leading up to the stalling incident, or did the
weak cranking manifest itself suddenly right after the stalling
incident?


Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.

It's probably normal but I wouldn't swear by it. Depends on how many
times "a number of times" is, and how long each time lasted. Sounds
like the battery was getting quite a workout. In view of this, it
might be good to re-check the voltage across the battery to see if it
is still 10 volts (engine cranking with plugs installed). Since the
whole purpose of measuring the voltage at the starter was to compare it
to the voltage reading at the battery, this is important.

Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage the
flywheel.

Did the starter gear ("pinion gear") spin rapidly during those times
when it didn't "pop up"? On an automotive starter motor, this can be
indicative of a low battery. I'm not sure about the starter motor
design on this Briggs engine in this regard.

[Rich256]

PaulD wrote:
I did some more testing today and got more ambigous results. First, I
had the battery charged up again (local parts store does it for free).
Tested the battery under load one time. Got 10.5 volts. Then I tested
for voltage drop at the starter. This time I got 9.5 volts, a one volt
drop, slightly better than last time
I also tested both sides of the circuit per Ether Jone's suggestion.
On the negative side I got a reading of .25 volts. On the positive
side, I got a reading of about .5 volts.
I'll have a little time off my day job tommorrow to tinker so I'll
take a closer look at the cables and connections and maybe try
replacing one. I thinking at this point, though, the cranking problem
looks like it may be at the starter.
Also, the local parts store will lend me a compression gauge. I
took a look at the CD-ROM manual. It suggested comparing the
compression between the two cylinders and looking for a significant
difference in readings between the two.. Is this the compression test
that you would recommend?

Is it turning fast enough to start? Getting a spark?
\
Jumper in a car battery. Don't tackle the starter until you totally
eliminate that it might be battery.

If it is spinning fast enough to start try the suggestion of squirting
in some starter fluid. Personally I just use carburetor cleaner for
that task.

[Don Young]

"PaulD" wrote in message
oups.com...
I did some more testing today and got more ambigous results. First, I
had the battery charged up again (local parts store does it for free).
Tested the battery under load one time. Got 10.5 volts. Then I tested
for voltage drop at the starter. This time I got 9.5 volts, a one volt
drop, slightly better than last time
I also tested both sides of the circuit per Ether Jone's suggestion.
On the negative side I got a reading of .25 volts. On the positive
side, I got a reading of about .5 volts.
I'll have a little time off my day job tommorrow to tinker so I'll
take a closer look at the cables and connections and maybe try
replacing one. I thinking at this point, though, the cranking problem
looks like it may be at the starter.
Also, the local parts store will lend me a compression gauge. I
took a look at the CD-ROM manual. It suggested comparing the
compression between the two cylinders and looking for a significant
difference in readings between the two.. Is this the compression test
that you would recommend?

Ether Jones wrote:
That is a good way to test the compression. However, a compression test is
not of any use to diagnose a slow cranking problem. Abnormal compression is
very rarely too high and if the compression is too low the cranking speed
would be greater. It is possible for excessive fuel or oil in the cylinders
to cause slow cranking but it should blow out if you remove the plugs and
crank the engine.

I would suggest that you remove the plugs and check that the engine spins
over easily. If it does that but turns over too slowly with the plugs in and
9.5 volts across the starter, the starter is very likely not performing
properly.

Don Young
PaulD wrote:

I'll follow up tommorrow or the next. I noted the voltage drop the
first time I had the engine cranked so I am fairly certain the battery
was still at full charge. As I continued, I did notice the battery
power was dropping so I put a jump between a car battery and the lawn
mower. Still got a low voltage reading at the starter motor. I'll make
sure the battery is fully charged again before proceeding further with
your suggestions.

I ran all the tests with the plugs installed.

The starter motor has a wire going from it that is attached at the
other end to some type of terminal. Is this the s olenoid?

It is the relay. When you turn the key, the electrical switch in the
key activates the relay, which completes the circuit to provide power
to the starter motor. The relay is designed to handle the large
current; the key switch is not.

If you test the ground side of the circuit as described in the prior
post, and you get a zero reading, and then you test the positive side
and get a non-zero reading, then you can start working your voltmeter
lead backwards from the starter motor terminal until you cease to get a
non-zero reading (with the other voltmeter lead always on the battery
positive terminal post). That will isolate where the problem is. It
could be a bad relay, or a loose or corroded connection, or a wire with
several strands broken internally.

Again, this only addresses the weak cranking. It doesn't address why
the engine stalled. The stalled engine could be due to spark, fuel, or
compression (bad plugs, bad ignition system, clogged fuel filter,
clogged air filter, carburetor problem, bad gasoline, valves, etc).
Once you get the engine cranking properly, you can troubleshoot that.


I followed
the cable from the starter motor to its other end and tested for a
voltage drop there. I thought this might indicate whether there is a
problem in the cable that leads to the starter motor.

I didn't noticed any problems with slow cranking prior to the stalling
incident, except as indicated earlier about the intermittent behavior.
In some ways it is hard to know whether there was any gradual
deterioation because usually the engine fires up quickly so the starter
does not crank that long. After the stalling incident, however, it
was noticeably very weak (i.e barely cranking).


Ether Jones wrote:
PaulD wrote:

Ok, here is the update. I measured the voltage at the starter
engine
terminal.

By the way, it's a starter motor, not a starter engine.

I did it a bunch of times. I measured sometimes slightly
below 9 volts, sometimes slightly above. There was definitely a
voltage drop. Was the drop large enough to be significant?

You ran this test with the plugs installed, is that right? It's
important. If you got 9 volts at the starter with the plugs removed,
and you got 10 volts at the battery with the plugs installed, then it
seems likely that you have a problem of some sort with the cabling
between the battery and starter motor.

If the 9 volt reading was with the plugs installed, it's less
definitive but still suggests a cable problem. I would have expected
the reading to be closer to the same reading you said you got at the
battery terminals: slightly over 10 volts. But perhaps you've worn
the battery down a bit with all this cranking, and the voltage at the
battery is now only 9 volts. It would be good to check it quickly
again to make sure it's still 10 volts there. It's the difference
between the two readings that's significant.

Assuming the two readings are indeed different, you can try to locate
the cable problem. First test the ground half of the
battery-to-starter cabling: connect one voltmeter lead to the
negative
battery post, and the other lead to engine ground (cooling fins).
Make sure the plugs are installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads
have
a clean contact. Crank the engine and note the voltmeter reading.
It
should be zero or nearly so. If you get a non-zero reading, it
indicates abnormal resistance in the ground side of the connection.
Make sure your voltmeter leads have good contact. You may get an
erroneous "zero" reading if your leads are not firmly in contact with
good clean metal.

Second, test the positive half of the battery-to-starter cabling:
connect one voltmeter lead to the positive battery post, and the
other
lead to the starter motor positive terminal. Make sure the plugs are
installed. Make sure the voltmeter leads have a clean contact.
Crank
the engine and note the voltmeter reading. It should be zero or
nearly
so. If you get a non-zero reading, it indicates abnormal resistance
in
the positive side of the connection. Make sure your voltmeter leads
have good contact. You may get an erroneous "zero" reading if your
leads are not firmly in contact with good clean metal.



I also noticed that every once in a while I got a voltage spike at
about 14 volts for a very brief instance. I am not sure whether
the
spike was just a multi-meter error or whether it has some
significance.
I also tested the voltage drop where the starter cable is attached
to
the solenoid (?). I got similar readings there.

I have the service manual right here for the model 422707 Briggs
engine. The starter motor only has one terminal. I'm not sure what
you're referring to.

I did your suggestion regarding compression. I got alternating
puffs
and suction from both cylinders. Its hard to tell whether they
were
both similar. Seemed like they were.

This is one of those tests where if you did NOT feel alternating
compression and suction it would definitely indicate a problem; but
if
you DO get alternating compression and suction the test is not
definitive (there could still be a problem - only by using a
compression gauge could you be sure). Let's assume for the time
being
that the valves are OK, although that's not a sure bet.


My son said that the engine slowly faded before stalling out.

That's not what I was asking. I was asking about the starter motor
cranking. Were you noticing increasingly "weak" starter motor
cranking
in the days (or weeks) leading up to the stalling incident, or did
the
weak cranking manifest itself suddenly right after the stalling
incident?


Finally, two other things I observed. First, I did try to get
multiple
readings. As I did so, I noticed that the starter engine casing
did
get hot to touch. I did not have my helper crank for more than a
few
seconds at a time. Is this something one would expect when
cranking
the starter a number of times or is it an indication of a problem.

It's probably normal but I wouldn't swear by it. Depends on how many
times "a number of times" is, and how long each time lasted. Sounds
like the battery was getting quite a workout. In view of this, it
might be good to re-check the voltage across the battery to see if it
is still 10 volts (engine cranking with plugs installed). Since the
whole purpose of measuring the voltage at the starter was to compare
it
to the voltage reading at the battery, this is important.

Second, at one point the starter gear stopped popping up to engage
the
flywheel.

Did the starter gear ("pinion gear") spin rapidly during those times
when it didn't "pop up"? On an automotive starter motor, this can
be
indicative of a low battery. I'm not sure about the starter motor
design on this Briggs engine in this regard.

[Ether Jones]

Rich256 wrote:

Jumper in a car battery. Don't tackle the starter until you totally
eliminate that it might be battery.

Read the rest of the thread, Rich.

[Ether Jones]

Don Young wrote:

That is a good way to test the compression. However, a compression test is
not of any use to diagnose a slow cranking problem.

Read the rest of the thread, Don. The OP stated that the engine slowly
stalled out while his son was mowing the lawn. Then when he tried to
re-start, the cranking was slow. We're trying to determine if the two
are related. Very few single failure modes could cause both problems.
But a valve problem could cause both problems. If compression differs
greatly between the two cylinders it could indicate a valve problem.
So it's worth checking.

Abnormal compression is very rarely too high

The compression doesn't have to be "too high" to cause a cranking
problem. If the exhaust valve is stuck shut in one cylinder, for
example (broken valve stem?), the starter motor has to work harder
because it's compressing on the exhaust stroke. This would cause
slower cranking.

and if the compression is too low the cranking speed
would be greater. It is possible for excessive fuel or oil in the cylinders
to cause slow cranking but it should blow out if you remove the plugs and
crank the engine.

I would suggest that you remove the plugs and check that the engine spins
over easily.

He already did that. It's described in an earlier post in this thread.

If it does that but turns over too slowly with the plugs in and
9.5 volts across the starter, the starter is very likely not performing
properly.

That's the current most likely answer (for the cranking problem) based
on the tests run so far. But before he runs out and buys and installs
a new starter motor, it was suggested that he rule out a valve problem
(which could cause the engine to crank slower, and would ALSO explain
the stalling described in the original post).

[Rich256]

Ether Jones wrote:
Rich256 wrote:

Jumper in a car battery. Don't tackle the starter until you totally
eliminate that it might be battery.

Read the rest of the thread, Rich.


I think I did. He seems to be centered on heading for the starter motor.

I would prefer doing the test with a hefty battery that can take long
term cranking.

More important, I haven't seen anything about the engine firing when he
is doing those tests. Seems to me that regardless of how it cranks that
is what is important.

I would like to pull the head. Just wonder if that is difficult on that
engine. Usually pretty easy.

Since it died early, like you, I just can't believe it is the starter.

[PaulD]

I spent some more time trying to figure this thing out and now I find
we need to backtrack again.

I tried the test again where you crank the engine with finger covering
the spark plug holes. When I cranked it using the starter I thought I
felt puffs and suction from both cylinders. This time I had my helper
just turn the flywheel while I had fingers over the holes. I got a got
puff and suction from one cylinder. On the other cylinder, however, I
got a puff, but little or no suction. So maybe Ether's original
thought is right about a valve problem? What should I do now?

Ether Jones wrote:
Don Young wrote:

That is a good way to test the compression. However, a compression test is
not of any use to diagnose a slow cranking problem.

Read the rest of the thread, Don. The OP stated that the engine slowly
stalled out while his son was mowing the lawn. Then when he tried to
re-start, the cranking was slow. We're trying to determine if the two
are related. Very few single failure modes could cause both problems.
But a valve problem could cause both problems. If compression differs
greatly between the two cylinders it could indicate a valve problem.
So it's worth checking.

Abnormal compression is very rarely too high

The compression doesn't have to be "too high" to cause a cranking
problem. If the exhaust valve is stuck shut in one cylinder, for
example (broken valve stem?), the starter motor has to work harder
because it's compressing on the exhaust stroke. This would cause
slower cranking.

and if the compression is too low the cranking speed
would be greater. It is possible for excessive fuel or oil in the cylinders
to cause slow cranking but it should blow out if you remove the plugs and
crank the engine.

I would suggest that you remove the plugs and check that the engine spins
over easily.

He already did that. It's described in an earlier post in this thread.

If it does that but turns over too slowly with the plugs in and
9.5 volts across the starter, the starter is very likely not performing
properly.

That's the current most likely answer (for the cranking problem) based
on the tests run so far. But before he runs out and buys and installs
a new starter motor, it was suggested that he rule out a valve problem
(which could cause the engine to crank slower, and would ALSO explain
the stalling described in the original post).

[Rich256]

PaulD wrote:
I spent some more time trying to figure this thing out and now I find
we need to backtrack again.

I tried the test again where you crank the engine with finger covering
the spark plug holes. When I cranked it using the starter I thought I
felt puffs and suction from both cylinders. This time I had my helper
just turn the flywheel while I had fingers over the holes. I got a got
puff and suction from one cylinder. On the other cylinder, however, I
got a puff, but little or no suction. So maybe Ether's original
thought is right about a valve problem? What should I do now?


Is it easy to pull the heads? Usually just a few bolts. Then you could
see the valves working.

[PaulD]

Pulling the head and replacing it looks fairly simple per the
repair manual. If I need to repair something in the valves, however,
I'll probably need to seek help from a friend who knows more than I do.
That looks fairly complex on this engine.
If I take off the head, what exactly should I be looking for. I
suppose if I find a stuck or poorly working valve, the next question is
what is causing the problem. For example, if I find a broken valve
stem, do I need to just replace it or is there more trouble shooting
involved to figure out why it broke.
Rich256 wrote:
PaulD wrote:
I spent some more time trying to figure this thing out and now I find
we need to backtrack again.

I tried the test again where you crank the engine with finger covering
the spark plug holes. When I cranked it using the starter I thought I
felt puffs and suction from both cylinders. This time I had my helper
just turn the flywheel while I had fingers over the holes. I got a got
puff and suction from one cylinder. On the other cylinder, however, I
got a puff, but little or no suction. So maybe Ether's original
thought is right about a valve problem? What should I do now?


Is it easy to pull the heads? Usually just a few bolts. Then you could
see the valves working.

[Rich256]

PaulD wrote:
Pulling the head and replacing it looks fairly simple per the
repair manual. If I need to repair something in the valves, however,
I'll probably need to seek help from a friend who knows more than I do.
That looks fairly complex on this engine.
If I take off the head, what exactly should I be looking for. I
suppose if I find a stuck or poorly working valve, the next question is
what is causing the problem. For example, if I find a broken valve
stem, do I need to just replace it or is there more trouble shooting
involved to figure out why it broke.

With the head off, turning the engine over slowly you will see the
valves open and close. All closed during the compression and power
stroke. Only one open at a time during the intake and exhaust. Both
closed during the compression and power.

I once saw a valve stuck open to where just some penetrating oil and
twisting got it working again. And I have had them stuck open due to
carbon. A wire brushing fixed that one.

Your problem of getting suction but not exhaust sort of rules out an
open valve. More like one is permanently closed and that would likely
be something broke. If one is open you probably would not notice either
suction or puff.

Anyway, I have found it is normally a very easy task on a small engine.
And if nothing else gives me a chance to clean off any accumulated carbon.


How about spark? I have not noticed any mention of that.

I had an different problem just a short time ago. An old engine was
surging. Thought it might be ready for the scrap heap. The wire to the
kill switch ran through a little support hole on the casting. The wire
looked rather old and the cover brittle. Moving it around seemed to
change the surging. I put a good insulated sleeve over the wire and it
runs like normal again.

[PaulD]

I haven't checked for spark yet because I really would not expect
the engine to start at its current cranking speed. Once I get the
cranking problem fixed, I'll trouble shoot any remaining problems.

Rich256 wrote: Your problem of getting suction but not exhaust sort
of rules out an
open valve. More like one is permanently closed and that would likely
be something broke. If one is open you probably would not notice either
suction or puff.

Actually, I am getting exhaust, but not suction. Is that likely
caused by an permanently closed valve also?

I suppose the next step is to open up the head. When you say that
something is likely broke in the valves, is that a problem caused by
wear or am I going to need to look for another problem that might have
caused something to break? Could it be something as simple as a broken
spring? The engine was made in 1993 so I am not sure that I want to
invest alot of money in it. That is why I am trying to repair this on
my own, even though I am not much of a mechanic. I do think with some
help I could replace a broken spring or valve.

Ether or anyone else who can answer: Do you think the possible
valve problem is causing the cranking problem? Or do I still maybe
need a new starter?

In the event that I need to work of vavles, the repair manual says
that to get to the valve chamber I need to take off the carb and intake
manifold. I am not sure I need to do this. I think I could get to the
valve chamber by taking off just the crankcase breather. If so, I
think that would make any valve repairs a little easier. In any event,
if I need to do any work on the valves, I think I'll give a call for
help from a friend who has more experience in these matters.
:
PaulD wrote:
Pulling the head and replacing it looks fairly simple per the
repair manual. If I need to repair something in the valves, however,
I'll probably need to seek help from a friend who knows more than I do.
That looks fairly complex on this engine.
If I take off the head, what exactly should I be looking for. I
suppose if I find a stuck or poorly working valve, the next question is
what is causing the problem. For example, if I find a broken valve
stem, do I need to just replace it or is there more trouble shooting
involved to figure out why it broke.

With the head off, turning the engine over slowly you will see the
valves open and close. All closed during the compression and power
stroke. Only one open at a time during the intake and exhaust. Both
closed during the compression and power.

I once saw a valve stuck open to where just some penetrating oil and
twisting got it working again. And I have had them stuck open due to
carbon. A wire brushing fixed that one.

Your problem of getting suction but not exhaust sort of rules out an
open valve. More like one is permanently closed and that would likely
be something broke. If one is open you probably would not notice either
suction or puff.

Anyway, I have found it is normally a very easy task on a small engine.
And if nothing else gives me a chance to clean off any accumulated carbon.


How about spark? I have not noticed any mention of that.

I had an different problem just a short time ago. An old engine was
surging. Thought it might be ready for the scrap heap. The wire to the
kill switch ran through a little support hole on the casting. The wire
looked rather old and the cover brittle. Moving it around seemed to
change the surging. I put a good insulated sleeve over the wire and it
runs like normal again.

[Ether Jones]

Rich256 wrote:

Your problem of getting suction but not exhaust sort of rules out an open valve.

Re-read his post. It's the other way around. He said there's a "puff"
but "little or no suction". Could be a broken valve spring.

A broken valve spring could make that valve open during the power
stroke when he is turning the engine, thus no suction. During the
compression stroke, the pressure pushes the valve closed and he feels
the compression. Just a working hypothesis. On this engine, the
valves are oriented in the horizontal direction and are driven directly
from the camshaft.


Anyway, I have found it is normally a very easy task on a small engine.

With the right tools maybe.

[Ether Jones]

PaulD wrote:

Ether or anyone else who can answer: Do you think the possible
valve problem is causing the cranking problem? Or do I still maybe
need a new starter?

It's difficult to say without quantitative information. Can you
quantify how fast the engine is cranking? Put a piece of masking tape
on the rotating screen. Is it slow enough that you can count the revs
while somebody else keeps time?

Or, how difficult is it to pull the starter? Your local parts store
that charges batteries for free sounds helpful. Do they have a test
stand for testing small engine starter motors?