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Default Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs

The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?

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kp wrote:
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.


I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).


Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?


It seems high, a state government agency in Wisconsin has estimated
$3500 for an average replacement.

You might want to omit the electronic air cleaner since your furnace
isn't going to be running all the time.

Be sure to have the furnace put on a dedicated electric circuit.

If air conditioning makes sense in your area, make it possible to add
it later.

I had the exhaust run directly through the wall. You may want to draw
outside air directly to the furnace to avoid a drafty basement (it will
require another pipe).

--
Ron

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Default Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs

On 2 Aug 2006 13:23:12 -0700, someone wrote:

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost....

So get quote #3 or even #4, and see if you are still surprised.

It may just come down to, if you don't like what they are charging,
then don't do it. But if you want the work done, that is what it
costs, no matter what you think it "should" cost.

Unless you have some plausible evidence that the first two contractors
knew each other and discussed their bids with each other, that the two
bids came in with numbers in a similar ballpark, BOTH of which were
not to your expectations, then it sugests the problem MIGHT be in your
expectations. So go get a 3rd bid.


Reply to NG only - this e.mail address goes to a kill file.
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Default Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs

"kp" writes:
I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?


Doesn't sound that bad to me. It's a big job and running those
exhausts and laying pipe for the meter, etc is fairly labor intensive.

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently. Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.

The gas line you'll need anyway, but it may be worth at least
investigating some other heating options since you're sorta starting
fresh.

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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You know the local contractors are aware of the gas line install and
may try making a killing on the residents

Just for the heck of it get prices from more folks including sears home
depot and lowes.

big companies probably charge more on average but are less likely to
gouge converting residents....



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"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced, and a furnace
(FHA) that dates from the early 70s. I also have a rented oil-fired hot
water heater. To my mind, a gas conversion was a no-brainer since all
those things need to go away soon.

I've gotten 2 quotes so far and was astounded at the cost. The
equipment itself isn't the problem -- but in both cases the
installation costs were over $3000, in one case closer to $4000. This
for what one contractor told me was a 1-day job (for a crew of course).
This seems awfully rich, because the entire job (furnace, water heater,
elec air cleaner) is coming in between $7,000 to $8,000. I am told they
will run gas pipe to the equipment from the meter, install everything,
connect the furnace to the existing ductwork (with whatever needs to be
adapted for that), run exhaust either thru the wall or up the chimney
with a liner, and remove the old equipment. The house is a mid-50s
bungalow with an 8-foot basement where the equipment lives. The
furnaces are both 75,000 BTU hi-efficiency gas units (higher-priced was
a Lennox, the other a Tempstar).

Is this a reasonable cost or am I missing something here?


I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.


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Default Oil to Natural Gas Conversion Costs


Martik wrote:
I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex. Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.


Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.

Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes
using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a
lot of choice.

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(Todd H.) wrote:

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently.


Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a
bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates
he

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm

Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.


Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that
supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install.
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"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced,


Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be
outrageous to me.

I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace.


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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
The gas company recently sent homeowners on my street a notice that
they will be installing natural gas service over the next couple of
months. The timing couldn't be better from my point of view. I have a
10 year-old oil tank the insurance co. wants replaced,


Why? I've seen many tanks 50+ years old with no problems. That seems to be
outrageous to me.

I don't know about the costs, but gas is much nicer than oil for a furnace.


The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.

With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.

Also if you want to be "green" you can burn biodiesel and/or waste veg.
oil in your oil furnace as well, something you can't do with a gas
furnace.

Pete C.


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"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...

Martik wrote:
I wouldn't pay more than $3500 for the furnace and water heater including
a
10 year parts/labor warranty.

I just had a condensing gas furnace (75k, Armstrong) installed for $2400
which included both intake and exhaust PVC pipes. The water heater should
only be another $600 max more. You should expect to pay extra for the gas
pipe to the meter. I'm not sure if the chimney will need a liner with
ONLY
the water heater vented to it. All this is no more than a long day's work
for ONE person providing the gas and venting lines are not too complex.
Keep
looking for quotes. I found that the one/two man shops with small ads in
the
yellow pages provided the best quotes, some of the larger companies were
up
to $5000 just for the furnace!!! . Make sure they pull a permit BEFORE
the
job. Make sure the furnace is sized correctly for your home's heat loss.


Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.

Gas is relatively new to this area and there are only about 1000 homes
using it, so there ins't a lot of experience among contractors nor a
lot of choice.


That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day!

Where in Canada are you?



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"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.



With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.


In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.

I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


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"Edwin Pawlowski" wrote:

In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.


While I agree with you in principle, there are regional variations that make
natural gas and fuel oil very close in pricing.

There was a time when natural gas was substantially less than fuel oil, but then
the utilities built a bunch of peak demand electricity plants fueled by natural
gas and that increased demand to the point that the gap is much smaller.

All energy is tied anyway, so increases in one for any reason will drive the
others.
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Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

"Pete C." wrote in message
The problems with gas is you get locked into a monopoly that charges you
even when you aren't using the product, is subject to outages and is far
more dangerous than oil.



With oil you have multiple suppliers in competition that you can choose
from, you have an on-site fuel supply that is not subject to outages
from a back hoe miles away, and I think you'll find the ratio of peoples
houses that have been destroyed by gas leaks compared to those destroyed
by oil leaks astonishing.


In spite of all your "cons' of gas, if it was available to me tomorrow, I'd
change tomorrow. Do you honestly think oil is competitive in price? The
dealers in this area are doing rather well for themselves and price between
them varies a couple of pennies at best. Gas remains competitive to oil
when priced in therms in most regions.


The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.


I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:
The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.


I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.



I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable. The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light. Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.

I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour. For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission. So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?



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I am 49 and NEVER had a natural gas outage, now electric

Thats unreliable

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Martik wrote:
"kp" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thanks for this -- just for info, the breakdiwn I got from the lowest
of the 2 quotes went like this (all numbers are in Canadian dollars,
but that's not much difference these days from US):

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250
Elec. air cleaner $600

Installation & removal $3200

This is from a 2-man shop and I like these guys from what I've seen to
date. The other quote is from a bigger outfit and is about $500 more.


That's a heck of a lot of money for 2 guys to make in 1 day!


That's why I posed the question.

Where in Canada are you?


Nova Scotia.

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wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
The last time I looked (not this year) there were significant
differences in oil supplier costs on the order of $0.15+/gal. They also
give senior discounts that my mother takes advantage of that are another
$0.05/gal and a COD (really 3 day) discount that is a few more cents /
gal.

Do your gas price comparisons include the amount that the gas monopolies
charge you every month even if you use no gas? There is no such thing
with oil companies and maintenance contracts are a separate thing
applicable to both oil and gas.


I've lived with gas for many years in previous houses and we still use it at
work. In all of those years, I've never had an outage, but my oil dealer did
run me out twice. In my lifetime (60 years) the score is Gas 0, Oil 2.


Sorry I don't have 60 years of experience, but in 36 years I have never
experienced a single oil outage. Even if I did have an outage, all it
would mean is a trip to my local gas station for a couple 5gal cans of
diesel which would last several days until a regular oil delivery,
something that is not an option with gas. No need for "emergency
deliveries.

Pete C.


I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable.


I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service.

The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light.


The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY
friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the
pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15
minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot
buildup and roughly check the combustion.

Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.


Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't
need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a
service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac
or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on
since a service call every few years is pretty cheap.

I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner
service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of
what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner.

Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous
problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas
furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on
an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with
detectable fumes before the CO would get you.

Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do
them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil
or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each
year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle
get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change
regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can
easily last several years without problems.


I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour.


I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.

For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.


Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.

So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?


Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.

The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I
recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe,
Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably
after a false advertising lawsuit.

Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions
every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds
of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to
the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil.

The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly
maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained
gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison
between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner.

The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the
difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent.
Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards
to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is
pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each
year.

And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month
whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin
for me.

Pete C.
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"Clark W. Griswold, Jr." writes:

(Todd H.) wrote:

While yer at it, you might look into a high efficiency wood pellet
stove to be worked in there somehow too. Its cost per BTU is less
than methane presently.


Natural gas is running about 1/3 the cost of pellet heat and that's at $3.20 a
bag ($160/ton). You can run the numbers against your gas and electric rates
he

http://www.warmair.net/html/fuel_cost_comparisons.htm


Woof. Wow... didn't realize pellets had gotten that pricey.

Or see if geothermal heat pump might be
something worth investigating for its lower long term operating costs.


Would be very cool if you can handle the install costs and have the ground that
supports trenches over wells. Else it gets very expensive to install.


--
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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kp wrote:

Furnace $1950 (92% eff. Tempstar)
HW heater 40 gal forced vent $1250


I recently replaced a 40 gal forced vent HW for around $900 US.

Elec. air cleaner $600


You really don't need that.

Installation & removal $3200


That does seem high. Have them itemize what's involved.

--
Ron



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Pete C. wrote:
wrote:
I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable.


I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service.

The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light.


The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY
friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the
pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15
minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot
buildup and roughly check the combustion.


You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who
can't? Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready
with another nozzle when it craps out?



Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.


Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't
need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a
service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac
or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on
since a service call every few years is pretty cheap.

I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner
service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of
what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner.



And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class
too? Or just use gas and avoid all this?



Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous
problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas
furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on
an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with
detectable fumes before the CO would get you.




And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The
oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more.



Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do
them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil
or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each
year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle
get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change
regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can
easily last several years without problems.




I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections,
while an oil furnace cannot.




I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour.


I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.


You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas
interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though.
Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole
time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of
magnitude more prone to outage?



For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.


Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.


Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from
10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest
interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see,
what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it
MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and
maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat
gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh
supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're
worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?

When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for
most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas.



So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?


Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.


BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even
know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a
construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few
hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can
put it out.



The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I
recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe,
Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably
after a false advertising lawsuit.

Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions
every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds
of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to
the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil.


Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when
the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat
gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims
not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot
know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc?





The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly
maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained
gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison
between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner.

The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the
difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent.
Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards
to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is
pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each
year.

And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month
whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin
for me.

Pete C.



You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil
are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would
switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can
charge,. just like the water company.

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wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:
I'd take gas in a minute over oil any day. I've had homes with both
and in my experience, gas is far more reliable.


I've never had any reliability problems with oil burners or oil service.

The core of the
problem is oil has to rely on spraying pressurized oil out of a hole
the size of a human hair. It's common for the nozzle to get fouled and
then the burner won't light.


The nozzles also cost about $6 and take 2 minutes to change. Very DIY
friendly as are the filter at the tank and the filter screen on the
pump. I can do this level of annual service on an oil burner in 15
minutes for $20 and also inspect the condition of the burner, soot
buildup and roughly check the combustion.


You may be able to do it, but how about the typical homeowner, who
can't?


The typical homeowner *should* be able to do it, however we have as a
whole lost more and more skills over the years. It used to be that the
bulk of people changed the oil in their cars themselves, now most don't
even know how to open the hood, much less check the oil.

Or how about the vacation house where there is no one ready
with another nozzle when it craps out?


If you're having an annual service done they get replaced well before
they would crap out unless you are buying the low grade, nearly crude
fuel oil they run cargo ships on. With most any #2 fuel oil the nozzles
and filters can easily last several years without failure so annual
replacement keeps them well within their life expectancy.


Plus, oil requires regular cleaning of
the burner, replacement of the nozzle and fuel filter, etc. In my
current home, I've been here 10 years and have never had to have a
service call on my gas furnace, while it was common with oil heat.


Unless a problem is noted with soot buildup or poor combustion I don't
need to call in anyone for service. When I see a problem I can get a
service call for a hundred dollars or so since I don't have a soot vac
or combustion tester and can't really justify spending the money on
since a service call every few years is pretty cheap.

I did take (and pass with the highest score in the class) an oil burner
service class at a local tech school so I have a pretty good idea of
what I'm looking at when I inspect the burner.


And are you suggesting that the typical homeowner should take a class
too? Or just use gas and avoid all this?


I'm suggesting that the typical homeowner should have at least *some*
knowledge of those hulking monsters in their basement, not total
ignorance. If you want to be ignorant you should be a renter.

Using gas avoids nothing at all and indeed using gas can allow your
ignorance to kill you if you don't have annual inspections. You can just
as readily run an oil burner for years without inspections or service,
but in either case, oil or gas, the inspections are necessary for
safety.

I once saw a gas water heater that had the chimney connection completely
fall apart. The homeowner had not noticed it at all while it was pumping
out CO, where if it had been oil fired they would have noticed it in
minutes. They were lucky that it was in a service closet off the garage
and fairly well isolated from the house or they could well have been
killed by CO.



Gas furnaces are not immune to problems and indeed some dangerous
problems like cracked heat exchangers can go unnoticed readily on a gas
furnace and actually kill you from CO buildup where the same problem on
an oil furnace would typically choke you out of the house with
detectable fumes before the CO would get you.


And you can't have a cracked heat exchanger on an oil furnace? The
oil furnace has exactly the same issues, plus more.


Apparently you didn't read what I wrote.

A cracked heat exchanger on a gas furnace is far more likely to go
unnoticed than a cracked heat exchanged on an oil furnace due to the far
more noticeable fumes from an oil burner. Both can pump out CO which can
kill you, but the oil burner has the added safety of being readily
detected. It's the same concept as the odorant they have to add to gas
so you can detect a leak.

Oil furnaces are also less likely to have a cracked heat exchange since
they are generally built more ruggedly than their gas counterparts,
though you can of course find both crap and very high quality in both
types.



Annual inspections are an important safety requirement, whether you do
them yourself with appropriate training or call someone in. Whether oil
or gas the furnace does not necessarily need any actual service each
year, but since you have a tech there inspecting the filters and nozzle
get changed because they are too inexpensive not to just change
regularly. Unless you get really dirty oil the nozzle and filters can
easily last several years without problems.


I'd say a gas furnace could easily go 3 or 4 years between inspections,
while an oil furnace cannot.


I'd say you are absolutely incorrect. I know of several examples of oil
furnaces that have gone that length of time or longer with no issues and
these include some pretty old units.

As I said the annual inspection is primarily for safety, not out of need
for service. The service is done as a preventative measure since the
parts replaced are very inexpensive and the tech is on-site anyway.




I don't know where you live that you are so concerned with nat gas
outage. In 25 years of nat gas service, I've never had it go out for
even an hour.


I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.


You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas
interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though.
Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole
time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of
magnitude more prone to outage?


First off, it is not "dream land", you can check the news archives to
see the frequency of gas outages in most areas. Second off, *I* have
backup for the electricity so it is not an issue for me. With oil I have
backup for heat and hot water as well.



For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.


Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.


Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from
10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest
interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see,
what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it
MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and
maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat
gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh
supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're
worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?


Diesel generator. Share the fuel supply with the nice safe reliable oil
furnace. #2 fuel oil and #2 diesel are exactly the same, the only
difference is transportation fuel taxes and a generator is not a
transportation use.

I had a near 72 hour outage during a winter ice storm in the northeast a
few years back. I ran on my diesel generator the whole time and went
about my life normally while people around me had freezing pipes and
freezing butts. At least their food didn't spoil since it was cold.


When you look at the pros and cons, a generator doesn;t make sense for
most people. Now, there are exceptions, like those in hurricane areas.


Hurricane areas, ice storm / snow areas, tornado areas, flood areas,
basically almost every area. Since power plants are few and far between
relative to consumers, a problem a good distance away can leave you
without power even if everything else is ok locally.



So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?


Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.


BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even
know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a
construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few
hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can
put it out.


I heard of dozens of gas outages in my immediate area over the years
when I had not a single oil outage. As I noted, I am well prepared for
an electric outage, with gas you don't have the option of being prepared
for a gas outage.



The much higher safety risk of gas is also another reason for oil. I
recall a brief ad campaign by a gas company touting gas as "Clean, Safe,
Dependable" which mysteriously changed to "Clean, Dependable" presumably
after a false advertising lawsuit.

Thousands of gas explosions every year vs. about zero oil explosions
every year certainly calls that "Safe" claim into question. The hundreds
of CO deaths each year are heavy on the gas furnace failure end due to
the lower detectability of the fumes from a gas furnace vs. oil.


Yeah, oil just brings things like $100K environmental disasters when
the tank rots out. Or the insurance company denying coverage. If nat
gas is so unsafe, why do insurance companies that have to pay claims
not have any issue writing policies, while it you have oil they want ot
know how old the tank is, where it's located, etc?


Politics pure and simple. Large gas monopolies have more lobbyists than
the smaller competitive oil dealers. The big energy companies don't care
much either way since they sell both NG and oil.



The cleanliness claim is also questionable since a modern properly
maintained oil burner is just as clean as a modern properly maintained
gas burner. The clean claim is largely based on the bogus comparison
between a new gas burner and a 50yr old oil burner.

The efficiency claims you also see are also questionable with the
difference between top oil and gas units being only a couple percent.
Unless you have already done every possible thing you can with regards
to insulating, caulking, high R windows and ERVs, that couple percent is
pretty irrelevant and might save you enough to buy a cup of coffee each
year.

And again being locked into a monopoly that charges you every month
whether you use any product or not is the final nail in the gas coffin
for me.

Pete C.


You can say MONOPOLY all you want, but all the data say nat gas and oil
are competitive in price. And they have to be, otherwise people would
switch. The utilities are regulated in terms of prices they can
charge,. just like the water company.


Regulated means little. The fact remains that the gas monopolies are
allowed to charge you even when you are not using any of their product,
which is not the case with oil. That and the other problems with gas
provide solid reasons *not* to use gas.

Pete C.
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In misc.consumers.house wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


I was in the northeast. I never had gas service, but I recall hearing
numerous reports on the news over the years of various areas having gas
service interruptions for various causes. In a large city vs. smaller
suburban areas it's probably a less frequent occurrence, but when it
does occur it probably affects more customers.


You are in dream land. I live in NJ and have neve had a gas
interruption. I have had plenty of electric interruptions though.
Just last week I was without power for 7 hours. Had gas the whole
time. So, why worriy about gas, when electric is already an order of
magnitude more prone to outage?


But when natural gas does go out, its a big pain in the rear. Its out for
longer and requires someone to come inside your home to get it turned back
on.

For the vast majority of folks, they are far more likely
to lose electric power, and they don't have generators, which puts them
out of commission.


Why don't they have generators? Certainly loosing power can be more than
an inconvenience since you can have significant losses from frozen pipes
in cold weather and lost food in hot weather. A small generator is cheap
insurance against those losses.


Because it just aint' worth it. Like last week. My power was out from
10pm till 5am. No big deal. And that was one of the longest
interruptions in the last 25 years that I've had. And let me see,
what's easier? Replacing $150 worth of food in the slim chance that it
MIGHT spoil, or putting in a transfer switch, generator, and
maintianing a fuel supply for it? BTW, my fuel of choice would be nat
gas. But since you don't like that, tell us about how you keep a fresh
supply of fuel safely stored? How do you rotate it? Since you're
worried about nat gas exploding, how about the gas for a generator?


I have a generator. I don't have a transfer switch but I have my furnace
on a twist lock plug I can plug into an alternate outlet powered by my
generator. I also have generator powered plugs near my fridge and sump
pump. Fuel supply maintenance means dumping the generator gas cans in
the cars twice a year and filling the cans again. I found that the
generator didn't do any good powering the furnace when the gas was out.

So, why worry about the far more remote possibility
of a gas outage?


Because they are not "far more remote" unless you are in a large city.


BS. Gas outages are very few. If you never had it, how would you even
know? By reading the newspaper about the rare occurance where a
construction crew hits a line? Even then, it;s likely out for a few
hours, not days. Compare that to electric, where a summer storm can
put it out.


I live in MA. A few months after moving into my house I called
the gas company (Keyspan) to report an outage. I was rudely told
"the gas company doesn't have outages, you want to call the electric
company because your power must be out." I informed them I was talking
to them on a cordless phone, I was well aware that my lights were on
and I'd like to speak to a supervisor. I was finally told someone
would arrive between 8am and 4pm and I had to be home because they
wouldn't touch anything without me being home. Two calls later and
a guy shows up at 6:30pm thinking my gas valve had been shut off and
padlocked for non-payment. Even with the help of someone back in
the office he couldn't locate the street side shutoff to see if
someone had shut it off. After 20 minutes he finally unscrewed my
meter from the house and got nothing. He unscrewed the street side
and got blasted by high pressure gas. He used the house side
shutoff valve just before the meter and then replaced the meter.
He then came into my house and lit the pilot light on the furnace
and water heater because I was obviously too incompetent to light
them although I had to tell him how to light the furnace because he
couldn't follow the little stick diagram. He also had to verify
that my dryer and stove were electronic ignition because I was
obviously too incompetent to know that either. I wasn't too
impressed.

Last winter a large section of a town in eastern MA (Lexington, Concord,
or Acton I think) lost gas for 3-4 days of single digit temperatures.
Lots of people had to drain their pipes as best they could as they were
forced to evacuate their homes.

Luckily I haven't had any gas issues in the last 5 years and I now have
a wood stove that will keep the important rooms of the house 60 degrees
warmer than the outside temperature.

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Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.

Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with
guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil

Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based
on age of tank.

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" wrote:

Gas being lighter than air normally dissapates if it leaks.


That only works to a limited extent and less and less as homes get
"tighter". If windows and doors are closed well nat. gas will just
accumulate from the ceiling down. LP gas is heavier and will accumulate
from the floor up. In either case unless the home is quite drafty /
leaky it will continue to accumulate until it finds an ignition source.


Oil pools and settles , causing a possible safety clean up issue with
guys in moon suits hauling away contaminated soil


This is *not* a safety issue, it is an over hyped environmental issue.
Fuel oil has a strong smell and is very likely to be noticed before much
leaks. Even when a lot leaks, most undamaged concrete floors contain it
pretty well if it's discovered and cleaned in a day or two.


Thats why homeownerts insurance is requiring oil tank replacement based
on age of tank.


And that is why new underground oil tanks are double wall construction,
just like new tanks at gas stations. Some new indoor tanks are double
wall as well though most are still single wall since there is minimal
risk. Just because a 50 year old single wall underground tank is no
longer viable in no way means that oil heat is no longer viable.
Technology changes and advances and the current high velocity flame
retention burners and controls with pre and post purge cycles are a far
cry from the old burners as well.

Pete C.


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Pete. let me summarize for you:

1 - I've lived in homes with both oil heat and nat gas heat. In over
40 years experience, I've found nat gas to be consistently more
reliable. I've never had to make a single call for service where a
natural gas furnace stopped working. On the other hand, I have made
many emergency sevice calls for oil heat due to clogged nozzles and
failed pumps.

2 - In 40 years, I have never had nat gas service go out. I'd like to
know where you live that you think nat gas is so unreliable and what
exactly makes that nat gas system unreliable. IMO, for just about
all, the very small chance of losing nat gas service pales in
comparison to electric outages that most of us routinely live with.

3 - Most people do not have backup generators, which come with their
own set of new problems. And they obviously have made the judgement
that their needs, probablilities, etc don't justify having one.

4 - As to the risk of dying from carbon monoxide from nat gas, vs oil
heat, here is some data:

How great is the risk of carbon monoxide in my home from natural gas?

From 1979 to 1988, there were 578 deaths in the United States that were

attributed to natural gas (out of 56,000 total carbon monoxide-related
deaths). This is an average of 50 deaths per year. You are more likely
to die from a lightning strike (approximately 80 deaths per year).


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/a/acci...ath/deaths.htm
Estimated 130 people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide
poisoning in the US 2001 ((US Consumer Product Safety Commission,
National Electronic Injury Surveillance System, 2003)
Estimated 58% (75) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide
poisoning caused by heating systems in the US 2001 (US Consumer Product
Safety)
Estimated 36.4% (28) people die each year from non-fire carbon monoxide
poisoning caused by natural gas heating systems in the US 2001 (US
Consumer Product Safety)


So, of the whopping 130 people who die each year from non-fire CO, 75
are caused by all heating systems, and of those 28 are attributable to
a natural gas system. That should put to rest the notion that natural
gas systems are more prone to CO problems. Compare this to the 50K
people killed on our roads each year to put it in perspective.


5 - If nat gas were unsafe compared to other heating system, insurance
companies would charge higher rates or not insure buildings that use
it, yet this is not an issue.

6 - Your suggestion that most homeowners should know how to change
nozzles in a furnace that stops working in the middle of the night is
bizarre for 2 reasons. First, clearly most homeowners do not have that
level of experience and knowledge. Second, it's very strange for
someone so concerned about the safety of nat gas vs oil to be
recommending that most homeowners start fooling around with their own
oil burner. IMO, that is far more likely to result in injury or a fire
than having a nat gas furnace ever would.

7 - People can make their own choices based on their needs and
priorities. But to suggest that nat gas is unsafe or unreliable
compared to oil heat is bogus.

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Robert Gammon wrote:
Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.


And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if
you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them
have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO
situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident
with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We
had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a
contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during
work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come
heating season, the CO killed them.




Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with
thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of
use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure
that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in
place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves
fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a
termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot,
but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a
thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a
stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter
and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for
decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is
far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride
in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........


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wrote in message
ups.com...

Robert Gammon wrote:
Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.


And it's 28 CO deaths per year for gas heating SYSTEMS. I'm sure if
you look at the incidents in more depth you would see that most of them
have nothing to do with the furnace. For example, a very common CO
situation is a blocked chimney. That would be counted as an incident
with gas heat, even though the furnace wasn't the real problem. We
had a family here in NJ where people died a couple years ago because a
contractor had temporarily put something in the chimney opening during
work in warm weather to block it, then forgot to remove it. Come
heating season, the CO killed them.


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


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"Martik" writes:

Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.

--
--
Todd H.
http://www.toddh.net/
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Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.



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"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?



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Robert Gammon wrote:

Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with
thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of
use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure
that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in
place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves
fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a
termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot,
but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a
thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a
stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter
and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for
decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is
far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride
in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........


Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas
explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO.

CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue
leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due
to:

1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual
inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace
falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming.

2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable
by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner
sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much
more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas.

People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil
appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and
from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil
stove or dryer?).

When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions,
gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as
an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source
unlike gas leaks.

And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is
vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the
airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US
than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each
airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or
2.

Pete C.
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Robert Gammon wrote:

Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.


Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


A large percentage of chimneys do not have screened caps. Raccoons
nesting in open chimneys are not unheard of.

Pete C.
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Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?




Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically
operated damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor
and attempt to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5
seconds after release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need
a largish supply of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to
store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.



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Martik wrote:

"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...
Todd H. wrote:
"Martik" writes:


Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily we
have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.


Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than on
top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?


There are draft sensors that could detect blockage, but they are not
generally used. The much more common CO detector would detect such
conditions if properly installed and maintained.

Unfortunately some people install CO detectors right next to the furnace
and then eventually unplug them after too many false alarms due to
momentary back drafts from wind gusts. They need to be installed a
sufficient distance away so those non-threat conditions do not give
false alarms.

Pete C.
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Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with
thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of
use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure
that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in
place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves
fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a
termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot,
but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a
thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a
stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter
and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for
decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is
far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride
in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........


Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas
explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO.

CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue
leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due
to:

1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual
inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace
falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming.

2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable
by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner
sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much
more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas.

People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil
appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and
from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil
stove or dryer?).

When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions,
gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as
an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source
unlike gas leaks.

And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is
vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the
airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US
than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each
airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or
2.

Pete C.

And i think that the biggest single risk with gas furnaces is the lack
of annual inspections. The heat exchanger walls rust thru, then
combustion products fill the house, and CO death results. I expect that
THIS is the SINGLE largest cause of gas heat deaths in the US. Worker
leaving a rag in the flue is a very low probability event.

The issue for lots of folks is that replacing the furnace is the
solution to a heat exchanger leak and that is HORRIBLY expensive. Many
simply do not have the money to make it happen, so they die of CO poisoning.

My parents had an oil burner most of their lives. I remember the smell.

Natural gas or Propane for me.

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"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
news
Martik wrote:
"Robert Gammon" wrote in message
m...

Todd H. wrote:

"Martik" writes:



Are you referring to the chimney for the furnace? Why would anyone put
something in there. Sounds like a good way to murder someone! Luckily
we have 2 CO detectors.

Birds have a nasty habbit of not informing homeowners of their nesting
plans. If only the birds would follow the permit process, by god,
lives would be saved.



Given that the top of the stack is a protected entrance, it will be
DIFFICULT, but not impossible for small birds to get in there. The gap
to my fireplace is a bit larger than my furnace flue, and small birds do
find their way to the fireplace from time to time. In 28 years, never
such an incident in either gas water heater or gas furnace.

A maintenance worker sticking a rag down the flue and forgetting to take
it out seems to be a more likely scenario. such an action is more
likely to occur at the bottom of the stack, at the furnace, rather than
on top of the roof.


Is there a sensor to detect lack of free flow thru the chimney that would
shut off the gas?




Not that I am aware of. It would require putting an electrically operated
damper in place, closing it, then venting a quantity of vapor and attempt
to detect back pressure. If only atmospheric pressure in 5 seconds after
release, then open damper and allow furnace to run. Need a largish supply
of compressed air or an air compressor and a bottle to store the gas.

This system would add at least $500 to the cost of the furnace.


I have a condensing furnace with both intake and exhaust horizontally vented
thru PVC and a draft inducer fan. Would this furnace have a safety shutoff.


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Robert Gammon wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
Robert Gammon wrote:

Carbon monoxide deaths related to natural gas furnaces at 28 per year, I
wonder what the break down is with age of the furnace.

Used to be we had pilot lights. Pilot lights came equipped with
thermometer that kept the gas off unless the pilot was on. Point of
use failure causing death was then attributable to a thermometer failure
that allowed gas to flow with out a pilot. This was the design in
place 30 years ago, I do not know what preceeded it. I had gas valves
fail, but then it just got cold, no excess gas flowed. I had a
termometer fail, but again it just got cold, no excess gas flowed

Now we have hot surface igniters, much like gas ovens do. No pilot,
but the hot surface MUST reach a proscribed temperature, measured by a
thermometer before the gas will flow. I had an igniter fail in a
stove. Stove stayed cold, no excess gas flowed. Replace the igniter
and all works well.

Natural gas has been safely piped to millions of homes nationwide for
decades. The risk of injury or death due to natural gas incidents is
far far lower than the risks you take every day to drive your car, ride
in an airplane, eat out at a fast food restaurant........


Note that what you just mentioned pilots and igniters relates to gas
explosions (and possible resulting deaths), not CO.

CO deaths are a result of poor combustion adjustment combined with flue
leakage, both of which have a higher probability with a gas furnace due
to:

1) People believing that a gas furnace does not require annual
inspections / service. This creates a greater probability of the furnace
falling into disrepair and the poor adjustment and leakage forming.

2) The fact that while CO has no small and is therefore not detectable
by humans, the other combustion byproducts produced by a burner
sufficiently out of adjustment that it produces significant CO are much
more human detectable with oil than with nat. gas.

People can and do die from CO poisoning from both gas and oil
appliances, but gas is a greater risk both from it's characteristics and
from the larger number of potential appliances (ever hear of an oil
stove or dryer?).

When you look at deaths due to non CO cause i.e. fires and explosions,
gas is by far the greater risk as there is essentially no such thing as
an oil explosion and oil spills rarely find a suitable ignition source
unlike gas leaks.

And I'm quite aware that the risk of death from either gas or oil is
vastly lower than that from driving a car. I'm not so sure about the
airplane though as there are more gas explosions each year in the US
than plane crashes. The total deaths numbers will be higher with each
airplane crash of course being in the 100+ range per incident vs. 1 or
2.

Pete C.

And i think that the biggest single risk with gas furnaces is the lack
of annual inspections. The heat exchanger walls rust thru, then
combustion products fill the house, and CO death results. I expect that
THIS is the SINGLE largest cause of gas heat deaths in the US. Worker
leaving a rag in the flue is a very low probability event.

The issue for lots of folks is that replacing the furnace is the
solution to a heat exchanger leak and that is HORRIBLY expensive. Many
simply do not have the money to make it happen, so they die of CO poisoning.

My parents had an oil burner most of their lives. I remember the smell.

Natural gas or Propane for me.


I have never found any smell at all associated with either gas or oil
*inside* the living area with quality equipment. In the same service
room with the furnace I can readily detect either gas (more specifically
the odorant) or oil. If you smell it in the living area you have a
problem that needs investigation and repair.

Pete C.
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