[Mulan]

Is this right for wiring?

14 gauge with 2 wires for lights and small appliances power outlets to
a 20 amp breaker
12 gauge with 3 wires for the fridge, microwave, diswaher to a 20 AMP
breaker
8 gauge with 3 wires for the stove top, oven, dryer to a 40 Amp breaker

New panel size - do I add up the number of circuits needed and their
amps? e.g.

stove 40AMP + oven 40+ dryer 40+ light circuit 20 + small appliances
20+ fridge 20+ diswasher microwave garbage disposal 20 for a total of
200 AMP box needed? OR can I combine the stope top and oven for a
total of 160???

Thanks for your help

[[email protected]]

get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.

[zxcvbob]

Mulan wrote:
Is this right for wiring?

no, but you're kind of close.


14 gauge with 2 wires for lights and small appliances power outlets to
a 20 amp breaker
12 gauge with 3 wires for the fridge, microwave, diswaher to a 20 AMP
breaker

12 or 14 gauge wire for lights and convenience outlets. 14 gauge wire
requires a 15A breaker. You can use a 20A or a 15A for #12 wire. (I
use #14 wire and 15A breakers for lighting circuits and for light-duty
but dedicated outlets, and I use #12 wire and 20A breakers for all
convenience outlets and appliance outlets.

You need at least two 20A circuits for the kitchen.

8 gauge with 3 wires for the stove top, oven, dryer to a 40 Amp breaker

Yes, although #6 Aluminum might be cheaper if it's a long run.
The dryer should probably be on a 30A circuit rather than 40A, and can
use #10 wire.

New panel size - do I add up the number of circuits needed and their
amps? e.g.

No. there are calculations in the back of the code book that tell you
the minimum service size.

stove 40AMP + oven 40+ dryer 40+ light circuit 20 + small appliances
20+ fridge 20+ diswasher microwave garbage disposal 20 for a total of
200 AMP box needed? OR can I combine the stope top and oven for a
total of 160???

There's a "tap rule" that lets you combine the stove and oven on one
circuit, I don't remember the details; it's very specific, but it will
save you some money on big copper wire. (My pain pills for my bad back
just kicked in and I don't trust my memory.)

With an electric stove and electric dryer (what about your water
heater?) you might need more than a 100A panel. You certainly don't
need a 200A, although you might want a 200A to give you lots of room for
expansion. Take a look at the 125A panels that I think are made for
mobile homes. 125A is a nice size, imho. I installed a 150A when I
upgraded the service in my old house, but the load calculations said I
only needed a 70A service. (that was before I added the shop w/ air
compressor and welder.)

I use aluminum wire for most things over 30 amps, and copper for
everything else. (I use copper for the big stuff too if it's a short run.)

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Bob

[zxcvbob]

wrote:
get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.



Trust me, you don't want the refrigerator protected by a GFCI.

Bob

[Mulan]

Thank you, just to clarify this would be a third breaker panel for a
second kitchen. The main one upstairs is already full and this area is
running off a smaller older breaker panel.

Do I need 40 Amps for the stove and oven?
Do lights and power outlets run on 15 or 20 AMPS?

The lights in there now are old tube and knob going to and old breaker
that has about 50 AMPS in it and a fan heater blows the circuit. I was
going to rewire this area off that old breaker.

wrote:
get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.

[RBM]

Only kitchen counter outlets are required to be GFCI protected


wrote in message
ups.com...
get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.

[RBM]

8 gauge with 3 wires for the stove top, oven, dryer to a 40 Amp breaker

The amperage varies by appliance, but all the above now require 4 wire
circuits



"Mulan" wrote in message
oups.com...
Thank you!

Since the breaker panel part of it scares me but I have been
"apprentice" to a lot of wiring installation for outlets, smoke
detectors and lights. I think I can install all the wiring back to
where the panel goes and then call in an expert for the mains to panel
installation. My budget doesn't give me any other option. Maybe an
electrician would not be willing to do that though.

The water heater is on the other side of the house and has gas. There
is gas in the room but I was given the electric stove top and oven and
can't afford gas appliances.

I was given the heater unit and all the cedar wood for a sauna too that
someone tore out that I thought about sticking in the basement - any
idea how much power that takes or if it would be 110 or 220?

I hope your back feels better there is nothing worse than back pain


zxcvbob wrote:
Mulan wrote:
Is this right for wiring?

no, but you're kind of close.


14 gauge with 2 wires for lights and small appliances power outlets to
a 20 amp breaker
12 gauge with 3 wires for the fridge, microwave, diswaher to a 20 AMP
breaker

12 or 14 gauge wire for lights and convenience outlets. 14 gauge wire
requires a 15A breaker. You can use a 20A or a 15A for #12 wire. (I
use #14 wire and 15A breakers for lighting circuits and for light-duty
but dedicated outlets, and I use #12 wire and 20A breakers for all
convenience outlets and appliance outlets.

You need at least two 20A circuits for the kitchen.

8 gauge with 3 wires for the stove top, oven, dryer to a 40 Amp breaker

Yes, although #6 Aluminum might be cheaper if it's a long run.
The dryer should probably be on a 30A circuit rather than 40A, and can
use #10 wire.

New panel size - do I add up the number of circuits needed and their
amps? e.g.

No. there are calculations in the back of the code book that tell you
the minimum service size.

stove 40AMP + oven 40+ dryer 40+ light circuit 20 + small appliances
20+ fridge 20+ diswasher microwave garbage disposal 20 for a total of
200 AMP box needed? OR can I combine the stope top and oven for a
total of 160???

There's a "tap rule" that lets you combine the stove and oven on one
circuit, I don't remember the details; it's very specific, but it will
save you some money on big copper wire. (My pain pills for my bad back
just kicked in and I don't trust my memory.)

With an electric stove and electric dryer (what about your water
heater?) you might need more than a 100A panel. You certainly don't
need a 200A, although you might want a 200A to give you lots of room for
expansion. Take a look at the 125A panels that I think are made for
mobile homes. 125A is a nice size, imho. I installed a 150A when I
upgraded the service in my old house, but the load calculations said I
only needed a 70A service. (that was before I added the shop w/ air
compressor and welder.)

I use aluminum wire for most things over 30 amps, and copper for
everything else. (I use copper for the big stuff too if it's a short
run.)

Hope this helps!

Best regards,
Bob

[HeatMan]

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Only kitchen counter outlets are required to be GFCI protected

Sort of...

If it's within 6 feet of the sink (read 'water'), it has to be GFCI
protected.


wrote in message
ups.com...
get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.

[[email protected]]

I know to never GFCI a fridge provided the outlet is behind the fridge
so it cant be used for anything else.

Honestly I think you should get a pros opinion before you begin as to
the capacity of your main panel to handle the new sub panel.

sadly copper price has skyrocketed today because of this it might be
cheaper to buy a gas stove at a second hand shop and gas dryer too.

the electric dryers cost to operate is going to kill you, same for
electric hot water tanks, low capacity and high operating expense

[RBM]

ALL kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected



"HeatMan" wrote in message
...

"RBM" rbm2(remove wrote in message
...
Only kitchen counter outlets are required to be GFCI protected

Sort of...

If it's within 6 feet of the sink (read 'water'), it has to be GFCI
protected.


wrote in message
ups.com...
get a 200 amp new main with the maximum nuber of breaker slots
available. service entrance cable and meter can must be replaced when
upgrading to larger amp main panel

14 gauge wire is for 15 amps max

12 gauge for 20 amp max

kitchen outlet circuits must be GFCI protected.

[zxcvbob]

RBM wrote:
ALL kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected

No they don't. The one for the fridge *should not* be protected. If
you want to be a stickler about it, use a simplex receptacle for the
fridge to indicate that it's a dedicated outlet.

The 110V outlet behind the stove (it's there in case you want to install
a gas stove) would not need to be protected. Same for an outlet for a
built-in microwave. And that wall outlet way over there on the opposite
wall, by the breakfast area.

Best regards,
Bob

[RBM]

Bob, refrigerator outlets and outlets for stove ignition are not counter
outlets, which is why they don't have to be GFCI protected. I repeat All
kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected



"zxcvbob" wrote in message
...
RBM wrote:
ALL kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected

No they don't. The one for the fridge *should not* be protected. If you
want to be a stickler about it, use a simplex receptacle for the fridge to
indicate that it's a dedicated outlet.

The 110V outlet behind the stove (it's there in case you want to install a
gas stove) would not need to be protected. Same for an outlet for a
built-in microwave. And that wall outlet way over there on the opposite
wall, by the breakfast area.

Best regards,
Bob

[zxcvbob]

RBM wrote:
Bob, refrigerator outlets and outlets for stove ignition are not counter
outlets, which is why they don't have to be GFCI protected. I repeat All
kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected



Oops. I didn't see the word "counter" in there. I was too focused on
"MUST". As the poet always used to say, Sorry 'bout that, Chief.

Bob

[zxcvbob]

wrote:
On Sun, 16 Jul 2006 13:07:27 -0500, zxcvbob
wrote:

RBM wrote:
ALL kitchen counter outlets MUST be GFCI protected
No they don't. The one for the fridge *should not* be protected. If
you want to be a stickler about it, use a simplex receptacle for the
fridge to indicate that it's a dedicated outlet.

The 110V outlet behind the stove (it's there in case you want to install
a gas stove) would not need to be protected. Same for an outlet for a
built-in microwave. And that wall outlet way over there on the opposite
wall, by the breakfast area.

Best regards,
Bob
Bob I don't want to start the ****ing contest but these are not
serving the counter top. You are thinking about "small appliance
circuits". You are right, they can serve stove igniters and fridges
without GFCI. It could also be the wall plugs in the dining room.


As I said in my last post, I overlooked the word "counter". I thought
RBM said all kitchen outlets MUST be GFCI protected.

Bob

[Bawana]

wrote:
I know to never GFCI a fridge provided the outlet is behind the fridge
so it cant be used for anything else.

Honestly I think you should get a pros opinion before you begin as to
the capacity of your main panel to handle the new sub panel.

sadly copper price has skyrocketed today because of this it might be
cheaper to buy a gas stove at a second hand shop and gas dryer too.

the electric dryers cost to operate is going to kill you, same for
electric hot water tanks, low capacity and high operating expense

My friend in the heating/air business recently told me that electricity
is
now the lest expensive way to heat. (Philly, Pa.)

I don't know if that's true, but I bet it's close.

[Puddin' Man]

On 15 Jul 2006 21:41:20 -0700, "Mulan" wrote:

Is this right for wiring?

14 gauge with 2 wires for lights and small appliances power outlets to
a 20 amp breaker
12 gauge with 3 wires for the fridge, microwave, diswaher to a 20 AMP
breaker
8 gauge with 3 wires for the stove top, oven, dryer to a 40 Amp breaker

New panel size - do I add up the number of circuits needed and their
amps? e.g.

stove 40AMP + oven 40+ dryer 40+ light circuit 20 + small appliances
20+ fridge 20+ diswasher microwave garbage disposal 20 for a total of
200 AMP box needed? OR can I combine the stope top and oven for a
total of 160???

Thanks for your help

Most of this has been answered, but ...

Don't major appliances still have spec plates? On which things
like max amperage draw are indicated? Have you looked for these?

On 15 Jul 2006 22:25:37 -0700, "Mulan" wrote:

Thank you, just to clarify this would be a third breaker panel for a
second kitchen. The main one upstairs is already full and this area is
running off a smaller older breaker panel.

Ooooops. This complicates matters aplenty.

Do you comtemplate a new elec. service entrance (pig-tails, etc)
for a new box or a new box that is actually to be a sub-box or ???

Do I need 40 Amps for the stove and oven?

Start with the specs on the appliance(s).

Do lights and power outlets run on 15 or 20 AMPS?

LIte duty circuits (ie lights, radios, etc) are generally
15A.

The lights in there now are old tube and knob going to and old breaker
that has about 50 AMPS in it and a fan heater blows the circuit. I was
going to rewire this area off that old breaker.

No comprehendere, senor.

On 15 Jul 2006 22:39:21 -0700, "Mulan" wrote:

Thank you!

Since the breaker panel part of it scares me but I have been
"apprentice" to a lot of wiring installation for outlets, smoke
detectors and lights. I think I can install all the wiring back to
where the panel goes and then call in an expert for the mains to panel
installation. My budget doesn't give me any other option.

Then I suspect you are in trouble.

Maybe an
electrician would not be willing to do that though.

Unless maybe he's your brother-in-law or somesuch ...

...

Seriously, if you have trouble estimating amp loads for
your circuitry, it *sounds* like you are "out of your
element".

You can afford a 2nd kitchen but not an electrician?

Beware, my friend, for the indications are that you are
about to shoot your po' self in the foot? :-)

Good Luck,
Puddin'