[Recruiter]

I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment.
Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The
local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas
for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor
uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by a
family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn
the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for
the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to
oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition
for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the
efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system.
The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs
of possible leaking, so I need to do something.
My 2 options to bypass the tankless a 1. Continue using the furnace,
and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2.
Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down
the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my
info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed. Which
would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

[[email protected]]

Recruiter wrote:
I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment.
Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The
local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas
for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor
uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by a
family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn
the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for
the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to
oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition
for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the
efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system.
The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs
of possible leaking, so I need to do something.
My 2 options to bypass the tankless a 1. Continue using the furnace,
and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2.
Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down
the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my
info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed. Which
would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

Here's what I would do.....Go to www.heatinghelp.com and post your
exact question on the "Wall" on that site. That group has bailed me
out of a few situations.

Paul

[Stormin Mormon]

My sense is to go with the 40 gal gas heater. Since it's more common
equipment, it will cost less than the indirect. And it will be more
easily serviced, since more plumbers have worked on ordinary NG
heaters.

As to the cost of fuel, I don't know. However, a coal unit converted
to oil is not likely to be energy efficient. Even if it's in good
shape.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Recruiter" wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment.
Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The
local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas
for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor
uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by
a
family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn
the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for
the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to
oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition
for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the
efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system.
The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs
of possible leaking, so I need to do something.
My 2 options to bypass the tankless a 1. Continue using the
furnace,
and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2.
Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down
the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my
info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed.
Which
would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

[[email protected]]

i would replace the oil furnace, for better efficency, and then decide
about a seperate or combined hot water tank.

my off the cuff opinion is you can probably save about 40% of you gas
bill by upgrading.

incidently the oil company LOVES your furnace piggy, they are a
business why recommend doing something to cut their sales

[[email protected]]

" I turn the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace
running for
the hot water.......The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless
unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. "

This is confusing. Is the current hot water supplied by the furnace or
a seperate system?

In any case, I would agree with the comments that an old coal furnace
converted ot oil is likely very inefficient compared to today's
systems. I would seriously consider replacing it. Also, I would think
that a seperate gas water heater is going to be more efficient than
using a furnace to heat the hot water. In the winter, when the furnace
is running to generate heat too, it may not make much difference. But
I believe firing a larger furnace, especially an ancient one just to
supply water is going to be a losing proposition.

You could also consider an on demand hot water gas system.

[Recruiter]

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to
install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

[Edwin Pawlowski]

"Recruiter" wrote in message
oups.com...

Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.


Oil price is capped? I've never heard of that and can't prove it by my oil
bills. Tell me more.

[[email protected]]

Recruiter wrote:
I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should.

How do you reconcile the fact that it uses much more oil with the 80%
efficiancy statement?


Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to
install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

Oil is capped? But for how long? Also, I think the guestimate you are
getting from the oil company as to how much of the oil is going for
heat vs hot water is probably just a shot in the dark. If they are
close to being right, at $150 a year savings, a seperate gas water
heater would pay for itself pretty quickly.

[yourname]

Recruiter wrote:
I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency.

That is only combustion efficiency, and not that great at that. A new
furnace would certainly be much better than that. I'll bet you are
running the hig 60's in total efficiency


I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800.

Well, you need to do something, and the only thing with any real payback
is a new furnace, and at 3.00 a gallon, only a 10 percent increase has a
10 year return more or less.

Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700 to
install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.



while gas is no cheaper than oil[they track pricewise always], you can
get a more efficient gas furnace than oil and usually cheaper. If you
figure everything being equal[!] the swithc from your probably 70
percent at best to a 90 percent gas could save you 900 bucks a year in
fuel[ at 3.50 a gallon oil]


when you figure in the probable lower service costs of the furnace,
I'll bet it is almost free

[Marilyn & Bob]

Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water heater,
but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output of the
tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the water
heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the boiler in
the summer.
--
Peace,
BobJ

"Recruiter" wrote in message
oups.com...
I live in the northeast. We are landlords of a multi unit apartment.
Currently, oil is going to be going up to $3.00 to $3.20 per gal. The
local gas co is charging $1.55 per Therm. Most of the house uses gas
for heat and hot water, each paying their own usage. The 1st floor
uses oil for heat and hot water, which we pay for. It is occupied by a
family of 5, which uses between 1000-1200 gal of oil per year. I turn
the heat off after the heating season, leaving the furnace running for
the hot water. The furnace is an old American Severn converted coal to
oil burning unit, which my oil co tells me is in very good condition
for its age. The burner is a Blue Angel Model HS. I don't know the
efficiency of it. It is a forced hot water/radiator system.
The hot water, currently runs off a small tankless unit, which does
tend to run out of hot water on them frequently. It is showing signs
of possible leaking, so I need to do something.
My 2 options to bypass the tankless a 1. Continue using the furnace,
and installing a 30gal stainless steel indirect water heater, or 2.
Install a 40 gal gas water heater, which would allow me to shut down
the furnace completely, during the non-use period. According to my
info, both heaters would suffice for the amount of usage needed. Which
would be most cost effective, short and long term? Thank you.

[Stormin Mormon]

Wow, $700 to install a gas water heater? I guess the price of copper
musta gone up a lot. And, also, needs a custom run of black iron for
the gas.

When wood stove guys old water heater loop, they have to dril a small
hole in the cap, to let out the steam pressure. Sometimes old
woodstove explode, to pressure in the internal heater loop. Not as
much an issue on a boiler that maintains 140F or so.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
..

"Recruiter" wrote in message
ups.com...

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to
the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other
hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700
to
install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

[aka-SBM]

"Stormin Mormon" wrote in message
...
Wow, $700 to install a gas water heater? I guess the price of copper
musta gone up a lot. And, also, needs a custom run of black iron for
the gas.



Gee...and thats why all the new units we (we being a group of licenced pros,
not guys like you) are installing at new construction sites are getting
stolen. I guess thats why a lineset that used to be $50 is now $250. I guess
thats why the average cost of a units gone sky high. I guess thats why
people are getting arrested all around here due to the price of scrap
copper...I guess thats why I cant find a section of old copper pipe out
back..

http://news.cincypost.com/apps/pbcs....WS02/607150334

http://www.buildings.com/Articles/de...ArticleID=3169

http://www.wlextv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4817195

http://www.the-dispatch.com/apps/pbc...607140333/1005

[[email protected]]

Stormin Mormon wrote:
Wow, $700 to install a gas water heater? I guess the price of copper
musta gone up a lot. And, also, needs a custom run of black iron for
the gas.

When wood stove guys old water heater loop, they have to dril a small
hole in the cap, to let out the steam pressure. Sometimes old
woodstove explode, to pressure in the internal heater loop. Not as
much an issue on a boiler that maintains 140F or so.

--

Christopher A. Young
You can't shout down a troll.
You have to starve them.
.

"Recruiter" wrote in message
ups.com...

I just had someone in from the oil co to give me some additional info.
My burner is running at 78.5-80% efficiency. I probably don't need to
upgrade the burner right now. Even he admitted that, although the
furnace is in good condition, it is using much more oil than it
probably should. Replacing the furnace w/ an internal water heater is
about $5000 and a furnace with an indirect unit is about $6800. Both
numbers are tough to swallow this year. The alternative is to cap the
lines to the tankless and install a gas Water heater. According to
the
gas co, it should cost about $50/ mo to run the HW. On the other
hand,
according to the oil co, based on a 1200 gal consumpsion, probably 250
gal is HW. so now we are only talking about the difference of $600/yr
for gas vs $750/yr for oil. On top of that, it will cost about $700
to
install the new heater and cap off the tankless. Then, as a friend of
mine reminded me, if the cost of gas continues to rise, the $150/yr
difference disappears since the oil is capped at that price.

Ahh I find it IMPOSSIBLE to believe a coal furnace converted to a oil
burner is 80% efficent. When was the conversion done? How many years
ago?

Its highly possible the oil guy has a profit interest in you NOT
relpacing that furnace

I would get a bunch of free estimates just for the heck of it. contact
the manufdacturer of the oil conversion burner and ask about efficency
of your unit.

your local gas station doesnt want you to buy a 50 MPG vehicle either,
if you asked they would likely say your gas piggie is great.........

[[email protected]]

sears installs gas water heater for about a 100 bucks locally, might
cost a bit more for vent.

your oil guy is a money hungry fellow, look into a new gas furnace and
hot water tank

[[email protected]]

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water heater,
but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output of the
tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the water
heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the boiler in
the summer.
--
Peace,
BobJ


dont bother with a tankless, they cost way too much to buy.

i still think you should replace the furnace with a natural gas unit,
but if your commited to just the hot water tank go with a 40 gallon
natural gas....

[HeatMan]

I'm gonna start something....

wrote in message
ups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water
heater,
but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output of
the
tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the
water
heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the boiler
in
the summer.
--
Peace,
BobJ


dont bother with a tankless, they cost way too much to buy.

They _do_ cost a bit, but let's look at the real costs.

A customer wanted a new gas WH. I gave her a price of $700.00. She also
got a price for a heavily advertised brand of tankless WH of $3,500.00 I
don't know the life expectancy of a tankless, but a tank type WH has an
average life of 12-15 years. Without looking at the cost of gas and
assuming a life of the tank WH's at 12 years, she could buy roughly 5 tank
type WH's spanning 60 years.

Gas is the other thing in this equation. The tankless WH's have a minimum
flow of about 3/4 GPM to make it come on. That's actually a pretty good
flow and if your house has the galvanized pipes that are old and clogging
up, you could be on the borderline of minimum flow. The gas valves are
modulating for (I think) 20K BTU's to 199K btu's depending on the flow and
the tank type (Standard 40 or 50 gallon WH) is close to 40K all the time.
Run at full blast, the tankless has a consumption of 40K BTU/hr and the
tankless has 199K BTU/hr.

I mentioned life expectancy of the unit earlier. I have no clue how long
the tankless will last, but I do know that they have a lot of moving parts
and I'm sure these parts ain't cheap to get and install. In 25 years in
this industry, I've never replaced anything on a tank type except for T&P
valves and thermocouples. IMO, the thermostat design has been around so
long that they are nearly bulletproof.

Just some thoughts.....

(Yes Paul, I didn't remove the crossposted header)

[[email protected]]

HeatMan wrote:
I'm gonna start something....

wrote in message
ups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water
heater,
but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output of
the
tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the
water
heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the boiler
in
the summer.
--
Peace,
BobJ


dont bother with a tankless, they cost way too much to buy.

They _do_ cost a bit, but let's look at the real costs.

A customer wanted a new gas WH. I gave her a price of $700.00. She also
got a price for a heavily advertised brand of tankless WH of $3,500.00 I
don't know the life expectancy of a tankless, but a tank type WH has an
average life of 12-15 years. Without looking at the cost of gas and
assuming a life of the tank WH's at 12 years, she could buy roughly 5 tank
type WH's spanning 60 years.

Gas is the other thing in this equation. The tankless WH's have a minimum
flow of about 3/4 GPM to make it come on. That's actually a pretty good
flow and if your house has the galvanized pipes that are old and clogging
up, you could be on the borderline of minimum flow. The gas valves are
modulating for (I think) 20K BTU's to 199K btu's depending on the flow and
the tank type (Standard 40 or 50 gallon WH) is close to 40K all the time.
Run at full blast, the tankless has a consumption of 40K BTU/hr and the
tankless has 199K BTU/hr.

I mentioned life expectancy of the unit earlier. I have no clue how long
the tankless will last, but I do know that they have a lot of moving parts
and I'm sure these parts ain't cheap to get and install. In 25 years in
this industry, I've never replaced anything on a tank type except for T&P
valves and thermocouples. IMO, the thermostat design has been around so
long that they are nearly bulletproof.

Just some thoughts.....

Tankless sound great till you run the numbers

A close cousin is the toyota prius, it costs so much more than a
regular vehicle the payback for gas saved exceeds the life expectancy
of the vehicle, espically when considering battery bank replacement
$$$

both of these products were poroduced by marketing companies to
maximise profits

I am all for saving energy but big business just looks at bucks of
profits

[HeatMan]

wrote in message
oups.com...

HeatMan wrote:
I'm gonna start something....

wrote in message
ups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Actually, you have a third alternative. Buy the 40 gallon gas water
heater,
but don't bypass your tankless. Feed the gas heater with the output
of
the
tankless. This will significantly cut down on the gas cost for the
water
heater during the heating season, yet allow you to turn off the
boiler
in
the summer.
--
Peace,
BobJ


dont bother with a tankless, they cost way too much to buy.

They _do_ cost a bit, but let's look at the real costs.

A customer wanted a new gas WH. I gave her a price of $700.00. She
also
got a price for a heavily advertised brand of tankless WH of $3,500.00
I
don't know the life expectancy of a tankless, but a tank type WH has an
average life of 12-15 years. Without looking at the cost of gas and
assuming a life of the tank WH's at 12 years, she could buy roughly 5
tank
type WH's spanning 60 years.

Gas is the other thing in this equation. The tankless WH's have a
minimum
flow of about 3/4 GPM to make it come on. That's actually a pretty good
flow and if your house has the galvanized pipes that are old and
clogging
up, you could be on the borderline of minimum flow. The gas valves are
modulating for (I think) 20K BTU's to 199K btu's depending on the flow
and
the tank type (Standard 40 or 50 gallon WH) is close to 40K all the
time.
Run at full blast, the tankless has a consumption of 40K BTU/hr and the
tankless has 199K BTU/hr.

I mentioned life expectancy of the unit earlier. I have no clue how
long
the tankless will last, but I do know that they have a lot of moving
parts
and I'm sure these parts ain't cheap to get and install. In 25 years in
this industry, I've never replaced anything on a tank type except for
T&P
valves and thermocouples. IMO, the thermostat design has been around so
long that they are nearly bulletproof.

Just some thoughts.....

Tankless sound great till you run the numbers

A close cousin is the toyota prius, it costs so much more than a
regular vehicle the payback for gas saved exceeds the life expectancy
of the vehicle, espically when considering battery bank replacement
$$$


We were looking at a replacement for the Momma-mobile. She didn't want to
look at a sedan because she's ridden 'high' for nearly all her married life
so the Pruis was out. We did look at the Ford Explorer(?) hybrid, but 2
things knocked it out. 1) it ran on Battery only up to 25 to 30 MPH, per
the sales person. 2) the battery pack would last 70K to 80K miles and we
traditionally put 130K to 150K on a vehicle before we move on. $8,000 for a
new battery pack ain't cheap and doesn't make much 'fiscal' sense.

I am all for saving energy but big business just looks at bucks of
profits

Profit is not a dirty word. Sometimes you have to spend money to save
money.

[[email protected]]

I am all for saving energy but big business just looks at bucks of
profits

Profit is not a dirty word. Sometimes you have to spend money to save
money.

Profit is both fine and necessary. But cars like the prius have
negative payback period, Unless your driving 100,000 a year maybe not
even then.

Show me a savings like moving from a 10 MPG vehicle to something
comporable that gets 20 MPG and I am all ears

[Marilyn & Bob]

The fact is, you have no idea what you are talking about. Consumers Union
did a calculation, which after admitting that they made some wrong
assumptions in thier first article, found that the Prius had a very positive
savings over five years (based on 15K miles driven per year). And that was
before gas went up from $2.50 (their calculation point) to $3.00 a gallon.
More importantly, the carbon (global warming) cost of owning the Prius (say
you bought back your impact on the environment) returned your break even
point to less than 18 months. If you count in the tax benefit (which
because of the tremendous sale of the Prius gets cut in half after
September, 2006), you actually start ahead from the original purchase.

Again it is easy to make statements based on your ideology, but totally
devoid of facts.
--
Peace,
BobJ

wrote in message
oups.com...

I am all for saving energy but big business just looks at bucks of
profits

Profit is not a dirty word. Sometimes you have to spend money to save
money.

Profit is both fine and necessary. But cars like the prius have
negative payback period, Unless your driving 100,000 a year maybe not
even then.

Show me a savings like moving from a 10 MPG vehicle to something
comporable that gets 20 MPG and I am all ears

[[email protected]]

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
The fact is, you have no idea what you are talking about. Consumers Union
did a calculation, which after admitting that they made some wrong
assumptions in thier first article, found that the Prius had a very positive
savings over five years (based on 15K miles driven per year). And that was
before gas went up from $2.50 (their calculation point) to $3.00 a gallon.
More importantly, the carbon (global warming) cost of owning the Prius (say
you bought back your impact on the environment) returned your break even
point to less than 18 months. If you count in the tax benefit (which
because of the tremendous sale of the Prius gets cut in half after
September, 2006), you actually start ahead from the original purchase.

Again it is easy to make statements based on your ideology, but totally
devoid of facts.
--
Peace,
BobJ


Well we looked at a prous and ended up buying a chevy cobalt. It was
about 8 grand less for cobalt, prius had NO tax break at the time and
since we hold onto cars a LONG time the battery cost, I couldnt get a
solid answer on that local dealers hadnt replace one at the time

when you take the 8 grand price difference and add the finance cost of
the 8 grand over the life of the loan its a lot.

10 grand or so? how much gas do you neeed to save 10 grand? plus the
cost of repairs with such a new model my friendly indenpendent mechanic
didnt want the servce work or most of it, so it would be dealer rate,
about twice of my mechanic.

add a replacement battery and payback is forever

I DO BELIEVE WE MUST MOVE TO A DIFFERENT FUEL BUT PRIUS ISNT
AFFORDABLE

[Marilyn & Bob]

Sorry I left that out. There is no reason to believe that the main
(traction) battery will ever have to be replaced for the lifetime of the car
in 99.9% of the cases. In any case the battery is warranteed for 8 years
(10 years in CA emission states). Just remember that if you keep your car
forever, most likely you will have to replace your transmission (more
expensive than a Prius battery) and/or need an engine rebuild. This is
especially true on a Chevy Cobalt, which is not made to last like Toyota
products.
--
Peace,
BobJ

wrote in message
ups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
The fact is, you have no idea what you are talking about. Consumers
Union
did a calculation, which after admitting that they made some wrong
assumptions in thier first article, found that the Prius had a very
positive
savings over five years (based on 15K miles driven per year). And that
was
before gas went up from $2.50 (their calculation point) to $3.00 a
gallon.
More importantly, the carbon (global warming) cost of owning the Prius
(say
you bought back your impact on the environment) returned your break even
point to less than 18 months. If you count in the tax benefit (which
because of the tremendous sale of the Prius gets cut in half after
September, 2006), you actually start ahead from the original purchase.

Again it is easy to make statements based on your ideology, but totally
devoid of facts.
--
Peace,
BobJ


Well we looked at a prous and ended up buying a chevy cobalt. It was
about 8 grand less for cobalt, prius had NO tax break at the time and
since we hold onto cars a LONG time the battery cost, I couldnt get a
solid answer on that local dealers hadnt replace one at the time

when you take the 8 grand price difference and add the finance cost of
the 8 grand over the life of the loan its a lot.

10 grand or so? how much gas do you neeed to save 10 grand? plus the
cost of repairs with such a new model my friendly indenpendent mechanic
didnt want the servce work or most of it, so it would be dealer rate,
about twice of my mechanic.

add a replacement battery and payback is forever

I DO BELIEVE WE MUST MOVE TO A DIFFERENT FUEL BUT PRIUS ISNT
AFFORDABLE

[[email protected]]

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Sorry I left that out. There is no reason to believe that the main
(traction) battery will ever have to be replaced for the lifetime of the car
in 99.9% of the cases. In any case the battery is warranteed for 8 years
(10 years in CA emission states). Just remember that if you keep your car
forever, most likely you will have to replace your transmission (more
expensive than a Prius battery) and/or need an engine rebuild. This is
especially true on a Chevy Cobalt, which is not made to last like Toyota
products.
--
Peace,
BobJ


The toyota dealer did admit battery bank has finite lifetime X number
of charge discharge cycles and X overall life in years.

Despite GMs reputation our cobalt hasnt missed a beat, and is great/ If
all GM products were this good they wouldnt be on the edge of
bankruptcy/

Toyota products are very good but when you need a part they are WAY
overpriced

A lot of people buy new cars every few years, I tend to hold onto them
forever

[Marilyn & Bob]

wrote in message
ups.com...

Marilyn & Bob wrote:
Sorry I left that out. There is no reason to believe that the main
(traction) battery will ever have to be replaced for the lifetime of the
car
in 99.9% of the cases. In any case the battery is warranteed for 8 years
(10 years in CA emission states). Just remember that if you keep your
car
forever, most likely you will have to replace your transmission (more
expensive than a Prius battery) and/or need an engine rebuild. This is
especially true on a Chevy Cobalt, which is not made to last like Toyota
products.
--
Peace,
BobJ


The toyota dealer did admit battery bank has finite lifetime X number
of charge discharge cycles and X overall life in years.

As is often the case, the sales critter had no idea what he is talking
about. Call (or e-mail) Toyota corporate for a better answer. If there was
a real chance that a significant number of the batteries would fail before
something like 12 years/200 miles (and there have been a number of earlier
Prius out there with over 200K miles) they could not warantee the batteries
for a long as they do. (Note that, ofc ourse, the battery does has a finite
life, it just happens to be longer than the useful life of the car).
--
Peace,
BobJ



Despite GMs reputation our cobalt hasnt missed a beat, and is great/ If
all GM products were this good they wouldnt be on the edge of
bankruptcy/

Toyota products are very good but when you need a part they are WAY
overpriced

A lot of people buy new cars every few years, I tend to hold onto them
forever

[[email protected]]

The toyota dealer did admit battery bank has finite lifetime X number
of charge discharge cycles and X overall life in years.

As is often the case, the sales critter had no idea what he is talking
about. Call (or e-mail) Toyota corporate for a better answer. If there was
a real chance that a significant number of the batteries would fail before
something like 12 years/200 miles (and there have been a number of earlier
Prius out there with over 200K miles) they could not warantee the batteries
for a long as they do. (Note that, ofc ourse, the battery does has a finite
life, it just happens to be longer than the useful life of the car).
--
Peace,

consumer reports also questioned the battery life and at the time of
purchase there was no clear info.

so get a link to a official toyota site detailing battery life and
warranty.

i bet you cant becuse battery life depends on location. in the desertt
southwest high temps eat batterys. around pittsburg the jarring of bad
rough roads effect the life a lot.

now get those links and we can talk futher.

I still believe JUST the purchase price difference kills any savings
but we shall see

[Edwin Pawlowski]

wrote in message

Despite GMs reputation our cobalt hasnt missed a beat, and is great/ If
all GM products were this good they wouldnt be on the edge of
bankruptcy/

A lot of people buy new cars every few years, I tend to hold onto them
forever

How many miles so far? I thought he same way about my LeSabre. My Regal
has some minor problems, but it is 15 years old, 149,000 miles, and I got my
money's worth with no major repair. Last LeSabre had 97,000 and no major
repairs.

Present LeSabre may force me to an Altima/Maxima or Camry/Avalon. Brake
rotors ($160), wheel bearing ($200 for the part) power window (propped
closed with a stick) and transmission rebuild ($2600), heated seat (not
repaired, $560 for the part) have me turned off. Oh, the air pump for the
emissions system is making noise when cold at startup ($400) Just seems to
be falling part after about 5 years.
Anything mechanical will wear, but this one is going to fast, too soon.

[[email protected]]

How many miles so far? I thought he same way about my LeSabre.

About 20,000 so far anmd not a thing other than opne safety recall they
did it while I waited about a half hour. My regular mechanic chjanges
the oil. It starts and runs well the bst vehicle we have ever owned,
thats saying a lot since I am 49