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#1
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but
just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. |
#2
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
46erjoe wrote: Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. If you could cure radon with a caulk gun, do you think people would be installing systems like the one you have? |
#3
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
no, the problem will continue.
radon is unhealthy so only replace the noisy fan with a quiet one. search for radon at energy federation: http://www.energyfederation.org/cons...th/30_406_1304 46erjoe wrote: Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. |
#4
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
46erjoe wrote:
If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? It might, if there were a vapor barrier under the slab. Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? Sure, but you might put poly film on the floor with carpet over that and poly film on the walls with foamboard over that. Nick |
#5
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
On 22 Jun 2006 19:43:45 -0700, "buffalobill"
wrote: no, the problem will continue. radon is unhealthy so only replace the noisy fan with a quiet one. Is this a case where a squirrel cage fan would be better because it is, aiui, quieter? Or is their capacity too low? Or some other problem. |
#6
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
If you have a sump pump the radon can leach in via the sump pump pit.
Sealing the cracks can help but it probably wont get you as low as the 24/7 fan you have now. "46erjoe" wrote in message ... Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. |
#7
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
The installers sealed the sump pump well with urethane foam. What I hear you folks saying is that yes, radon can pass through walls and floors... bend steel with his bare hands, and who ... Radon evacuation systems suck! On Fri, 23 Jun 2006 09:11:57 -0600, "Jay Stootzmann" wrotF: If you have a sump pump the radon can leach in via the sump pump pit. Sealing the cracks can help but it probably wont get you as low as the 24/7 fan you have now. "46erjoe" wrote in message .. . Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. |
#8
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
46erjoe wrote: The installers sealed the sump pump well with urethane foam. What I hear you folks saying is that yes, radon can pass through walls and floors If the radon level was "just barely" over limit with large cracks in the floor, then yes, sealing the large cracks thoroughly will very likely reduce the radon level below the EPA recommended remediation level. Are you a non-smoker? Do you spend only occasional time in the basement? You could just turn the fan off and stop worrying about it. Impartial researchers and medical people with no monetary incentive to fuel the scare campaign are skeptical of the radon hysteria. |
#9
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote: 46erjoe wrote: The installers sealed the sump pump well with urethane foam. What I hear you folks saying is that yes, radon can pass through walls and floors If the radon level was "just barely" over limit with large cracks in the floor, then yes, sealing the large cracks thoroughly will very likely reduce the radon level below the EPA recommended remediation level. Are you a non-smoker? Do you spend only occasional time in the basement? You could just turn the fan off and stop worrying about it. Impartial researchers and medical people with no monetary incentive to fuel the scare campaign are skeptical of the radon hysteria. The radon should be well below 4 pc/l If not you should fix it and just get a quieter fan. Remember, the fan may be an anoyance but radon can kill you. Caulk if you need to but can you afford to be a skeptic?? |
#10
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
tmurf.1 wrote: Remember, the fan may be an anoyance but radon can kill you. Says who? The radon remediation industry? Do a little research. Follow the money. |
#11
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
tmurf.1 wrote:
The radon should be well below 4 pc/l... So you might buy a few test kits and turn off the fan, then run it 12 hours per day if it's more than 4, then 6 if it's less than 4 or 18 if more, and so on. With noise as the issue, you might replace the fan with a long-life light bulb at the bottom of a tall chimney. The EPA says a non-smoker continuously exposed to 4 pCi/l has a lifetime risk of dying of lung cancer of 73 in 10,000, ie odds of 139 to 1. At 1.25 (close to the 1.3 average indoor level) it's down to 23/10K, ie 435:1. At 0.4 (the average outdoor level), it's 23/100K, ie 4,348:1. So why stop at 4? Will an electronic air filter help? The EPA plans to do more research on that. The NSC gives 2:1 (men) and 3:1 (women) odds for contracting heart disease, 3:1 for contracting diabetes, 228:1 for death as a car occupant, 1,310:1 for death by medical complications, 4,857:1 for death as a bicyle rider, 12,417:1 for legal intervention involving firearm discharge, 55,597:1 for death by legal execution, 56,439:1 for death by lightning, 286,537:1 for ignition or melting of nightwear, 372,498:1 for death by contact with venemous spiders, 413,887:1 for death by flood, and 1,241,661:1 for death by contact with venemous snakes or lizards. Nick |
#12
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#13
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote: The EPA says a non-smoker continuously exposed to 4 pCi/l has a lifetime risk of dying of lung cancer of 73 in 10,000, ie odds of 139 to 1. At 1.25 (close to the 1.3 average indoor level) it's down to 23/10K, ie 435:1. At 0.4 (the average outdoor level), it's 23/100K, ie 4,348:1. So why stop at 4? Will an electronic air filter help? The EPA plans to do more research on that. The key word there is "continuously". Unless you sleep in the basement and plan to stay in this house for 30 years, I wouldn't worry about 4pCi/l I would, based on the death statistics. BTW, are all of EPA's other recommendations sensible and unaffected by politics and money? Dunno, but it seems to me this standard should be tightened, based on the risk and the cost of the fix. Nick |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote:
The key word there is "continuously". Unless you sleep in the basement and plan to stay in this house for 30 years, I wouldn't worry about 4pCi/l I would, based on the death statistics. Figures don't lie, but liars can figure. Follow the money. ... it seems to me this standard should be tightened, based on the risk and the cost of the fix. Perhaps we should pass a national law requiring all automobile drivers to wear crash helmets, based on the risk and the cost of the fix. The lifetime odds of dying from radon at 4 pCi/l (139:1 for a non-smoker) are about half the odds of death in a car (228:1), so it's strange that we've spent double to avoid auto deaths, as PE Drew Gillett points out... Ah a subject dear to my heart from a former life. (I assisted Terry Brennan and EPA in some of the PA and NJ original house testing and helped develop the mitigation methods and courses for radon. The highest house I dealt with was 400pC/l (successfully reduced below 4, and the highest exposure I saw was over 10000 pC/l in air above an open well in a basement.) ...The risk for smokers and radon is multiplicative of their smoking risk, i.e. smokers should definitely not live in a high radon house and vice- versa (high radon houses should not be sold or rented to smokers). One of the problems is that the data indicate that if radon were to be federally controlled to levels consistent with risk from other hazards, it would have to be at below the outdoor level (which varies with height above ground. "Your mother told you not to lie on the grass. Why didn't you listen?") The 4 was picked as a reasonable level to obtain for a reasonable cost for a reasonable number of homes without panicking the public or busting the budget... not that based on the hazard and the risk and the cost of mitigation to that level... we should indeed be controlling it to below .4 pC/l for the average public. The scary part is the 10000 to 40000 excess lung cancer deaths per year. on the order of car accidents, etc. If we can put $2000 airbags in cars, we ought to be able to put $2000 radon systems in houses for similar reductions in premature death... Sealing by itself is not effective, but is necessary and helpful in conjunction with other methods, sub-slab suction, air to air htx and submembrane suction and passive stacks. Rather than run the fan intermittently (which would still allow some radon in), just run it continuously at a speed (controlled) enough to maintain the delta pressure across the floor so all airflow is out of the building (in southern climes this gets into a moisture problem, but not typically.) The EPA is apparently still looking into electronic air cleaners, which can't reduce the gas concentration but can reduce the solid daughters of radon particles in house dust that get into our lungs and cause problems. I like the Envirosept charged-media filter, which uses a lot less power (under 2 watts) than a HEPA filter. Nick |
#15
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
If your a smoker you dont care about your health or early death!
True radon makes lung cancer more likely if you smoke but smokers dont care.... or they wouldnt smoke....... ANYONE WHO SMOKES TODAY DOESNT HAVE THEIR HEAD SCREWED ON RIGHT1 |
#16
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#17
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
wrote: wrote: If your a smoker you dont care about your health or early death! True radon makes lung cancer more likely if you smoke We've been discussing NON-smokers, who are about twice as likely to die of lung cancer than in an auto accident, with odds of 139:1 vs 228:1, in a house with a radon mitigation system that maintains the indoor level at the EPA-recommended max pCi/l limit. Based on death statistics and Drew's description of how the 4 pCi/l limit was picked, it seems to me that homeowners should try harder to achieve lower radon concentrations, in order to reduce this serious risk. Nick go check the info, the rate of lung cancer for smokers in high radon are like 4 times either smoking or radon. combo rate is bad but smokers are risk takers to begin with and really dont care. sadly till they get cancer and are dying... thus my on comment rant about smokers |
#18
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#19
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote:
wrote: We've been discussing NON-smokers, who are about twice as likely to die of lung cancer than in an auto accident, with odds of 139:1 vs 228:1, in a house with a radon mitigation system that maintains the indoor level at the EPA-recommended max pCi/l limit. Based on death statistics and Drew's description of how the 4 pCi/l limit was picked, it seems to me that homeowners should try harder to achieve lower radon concentrations, in order to reduce this serious risk. It's not a "serious risk". I disagree. Results from Radon tests performed in the basement are not indicative of Radon levels in the rest of the house. Who said anything about basements? Nick |
#20
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Who said anything about basements? Nick all radon tests are done in basements |
#21
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Charlie Morgan wrote: On 27 Jun 2006 05:02:51 -0700, " wrote: Who said anything about basements? Nick all radon tests are done in basements Only because that is the point of entry. If you have radon in the basement, you want to remove it at that point so that it does not waft it's way up through the rest of the structure. CWM older homes leak so much air, and radon is heavier than air... its probably not a issue unless you live in the basement. anyone concerned can do a radon test upstairs. usually the normal opening and closing of doors windows furnace venting etc dissapate radon. when testing they demand the home be sealed for the week of the test.... life is full of risks, test the upstairs, I had a friend do that in a home with a number of over 8 in basement, upstairs the number was near background. she still plans on getting a radon control system someday befor she sells, but her basement is storage only so she isnt concerned |
#22
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Furnace and chimney flues create negative pressure so does weather
changes when low pressure fronts come thru. plus stuff tends to go from higher pressure under ground to lower pressure ambient air pressure, add cracks or voids just makes it worse |
#23
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#24
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
46erjoe wrote: Just bought our home 4 months ago. It tested positive for radon (but just barely). The seller agreed to install an active radon reducer fan-type. It runs all the time, sucking air from under the basement slab. After recent testing, the radon leven was very very low. I see is that there are many large cracks in the floor. Around the outside edge runs a gap at least a quarter inch. Then there are several shrinkage cracks also very large. If I were to seal every one of these cracks with urethane calk and thus make the basement airtight, would the radon problem go away? Or can radon leach through concrete block and floors? I sure would like to shut off that noisy 24-7 fan and convert it to a basement bathroom vent to the outside. Concrete is pretty porous, which is why moisture seeps through it, so radon does too. But, companies sell the same kind of waterproofing sealing paint they use to waterproof the concrete for radon-proofing as well, as I discovered from searching the web. Of course, you need to plug the cracks too. But in the case of a barely positive test, that might be enough to knock it down below the legal radon limit (4 ppm, isn't it?). |
#25
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote: tmurf.1 wrote: Remember, the fan may be an anoyance but radon can kill you. Says who? The radon remediation industry? Do a little research. Follow the money. Well, as a general rule of thumb, the government tends to get involved with things at a risk of 1/100,000 per person per year, which is of course not the kind of risk an individual gets worried about, but works out to 3,000 deaths per year in the whole US. And that works out to the 4 pci/l limit for radon, so it's pretty much standard by the book. Of course, that's based on worst case, i.e. spending essentially all your time in the basement, so most people are actually at less risk. |
#26
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#27
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
Ether Jones wrote: wrote: when testing they demand the home be sealed for the week of the test.... Nope. The standard procedure around here is to continue living in the house as you normally do. If that means opening the windows on a cool summer day, then so be it. The tests the housing inspectors do around here, and the ones they sell in Home Depot, just want the basement sealed, as much as possible. |
#28
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
z wrote:
... as a general rule of thumb, the government tends to get involved with things at a risk of 1/100,000 per person per year... The NSC lists lifetime odds of auto death as 228:1 and yearly odds as 17,625:1, 77.3 times less. The EPA lists lifetime odds of radon death as 137:1 for non-smokers at 4 pCi/l, so the yearly odds might be 77.3x137 = 10589:1, about 10X more than your 1/100000 risk and twice the auto risk, so why aren't we doing more about it? Nick |
#29
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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#30
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If a basement is sealed can it still test + for radon?
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