"SMF" wrote in message
news
Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

My breakers don't match my box. But if it bothers you, change them.

2. I had an electrician once run an extra outlet but in looking a few
years later I see that he ran 14/2 cable after attaching this to 12/2
running off a 20 amp breaker. This line either powers a treadmill
(runs on a "115 vac dedicated 20 amp {15 amp] circuit") or a iron.
The receptacle is 15amp which I believe is fine with either, but
should I swap the cable to 12/2 for safety?

Yes, the cable has to match the breaker. If running a new cable is
difficult, changing the breaker might be better.

3. I also have similar to question two above (14/2, connected to
12/2) going to a GPF in a garage that the same guy did. Do they make
a 20 amp GPF and should I switch the cable and the receptacle in this
instance too?

I will guess that a GPF is a GFCI? It is fine to have 15a outlets on a 20a
circuit, as long as there are more than one outlet. Yes, they make 20a GFCI
outlets, but unless you expect to use a 20a plug, it is unnecessary.

4. Can you run a series of five 15 amp receptacles for a workbench in
an unfinished basement running on 12/2 on a 20 amp GPF breaker?

Sure.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news
Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit
breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if
I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel
and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be
dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off
the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you
need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset every
electronic device in the house.

wrote in message
oups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very
basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit
breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock
if
I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire
that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE
panel
and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should
be
dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire
without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning
off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to
the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns
off
the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you
need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset
every
electronic device in the house.

It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about
safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when
replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself
included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers
without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron?

Geez, have you ever changed a breaker?
You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out,
disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the new
breaker is open, shove the new breaker in.
It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more
dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it still
should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the breaker is
out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated screwdriver.

You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a
problem?
And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are
working barefoot standing in salt water...
Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass
jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez.

wrote:

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

Well, you're seriously wrong. I've done my own electrical work for years
and have worked on electrical projects with numerous other people, both
residential and commercial and I've yet to run into anyone who shuts off
the main when changing branch circuit breakers, including removing /
installing bolt on breakers (Insulated nut driver and gloves of course).
The snap in breakers that are the norm in residential and many
commercial installations are specifically designed to be easy to remove
and install on a live bus.

Pete C.

Toller wrote:

wrote in message
oups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very
basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit
breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock
if
I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire
that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE
panel
and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should
be
dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire
without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning
off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to
the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns
off
the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you
need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset
every
electronic device in the house.

It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about
safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when
replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself
included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers
without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron?

Geez, have you ever changed a breaker?
You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out,
disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the new
breaker is open, shove the new breaker in.
It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more
dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it still
should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the breaker is
out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated screwdriver.

You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a
problem?
And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are
working barefoot standing in salt water...
Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass
jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez.

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to a
regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated
plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure
connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two
pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household
items as well.

If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's
only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't insist
that everyone else should do the same.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

Well, you're seriously wrong. I've done my own electrical work for years
and have worked on electrical projects with numerous other people, both
residential and commercial and I've yet to run into anyone who shuts off
the main when changing branch circuit breakers, including removing /
installing bolt on breakers (Insulated nut driver and gloves of course).
The snap in breakers that are the norm in residential and many
commercial installations are specifically designed to be easy to remove
and install on a live bus.

Pete C.


Well, the OP, who's an obvious novice, doesn't have to listen to any of
us. He can just do a simple google search for "replacing circuit
breaker". There are plenty of websites with info. He can see what
they recommend doing. And I'm sure he'll find that virtually every one
of them has turning off the main breaker as the first step. Then he
can decide what he thinks most people would do and make his own choice.

"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message
m...
While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to
a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without
throwing the mains off.

Right. But no one sugested that.

"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message
m...
While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to
a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without
throwing the mains off.

I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend
it to the in-experienced.

BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels I
shut the main off.


But, at least at transmission voltages, you (usually) have enough advanced
warning that you're getting too close before anything bad happens. Nothing
like a low current streamer off the elbow to remind you.......

While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to a
NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel without
throwing the mains off.

I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend it
to the in-experienced.

BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels I
shut the main off.


"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
oups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very
basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit
breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of
shock if
I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire
that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE
panel
and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should
be
dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire
without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning
off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to
the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis
do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns
off
the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

That's like opening the breaker before unplugging your iron. But if you
need to do it, there is certainly no harm, other than having to reset
every
electronic device in the house.

It only gets worse. First, you claimed to a newbie concerned about
safety that most people would not turn off the main breaker when
replacing a breaker. I believe that is bogus, as most people, myself
included would. And now you suggesting that replacing breakers
without turning off the power is comparable to unplugging an iron?

Geez, have you ever changed a breaker?
You switch it off, confirm there is no power to the wire, pull it out,
disconnect the wire, connect the wire to the new breaker, make sure the
new breaker is open, shove the new breaker in.
It is a hair more complicated than unplugging an iron, but neither more
dangerous nor more difficult. Even if you forget to switch it off, it
still should be perfectly safe since you don't touch the wire until the
breaker is out of the box; even then it is with a presumably insulated
screwdriver.

You should not come within 3" of a live wire, so where do you have a
problem?
And even if by some bizarre accident, worst came to worst, unless you are
working barefoot standing in salt water...
Do you wear rubber gloves when you do it, just to be sure? Stand on glass
jars? Have one hand behind your back? Maybe pull the meter? Geez.

With all due respect -- since your initial response was to an obvious newbie
you were in effect suggesting it.

I prefer to respond VERY cautiously to someone who has just bought a book at
K-mart on BASIC home wiring.


"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message
m...
While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to
a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel
without throwing the mains off.

Right. But no one sugested that.

Elbow -- only if it's outside the conductive suite. Take the goves and hood
off and you'll get em off the finger tips, nose, ears, etc.

As you get closer you'll hear the corona off of the line and hardware.


"Bob" wrote in message
. ..

"Jay Stootzmann" wrote in message
m...
While I see your point -- I would consider it irresponsible to suggest to
a NEWBIE that it would normal for them to replace a bkr in a panel
without throwing the mains off.

I've worked bare-handed on 345kv lines but I sure as h wouldn't recommend
it to the in-experienced.

BTW, I tend to believe in Murphy's law and when I've done work on panels
I shut the main off.


But, at least at transmission voltages, you (usually) have enough advanced
warning that you're getting too close before anything bad happens. Nothing
like a low current streamer off the elbow to remind you.......

wrote:

Pete C. wrote:
wrote:

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"SMF" wrote in message
news Hi,

I bought a book plus spent a number of hours on the computer to
research and I hope someone can help me with just a few very basic
questions I still have:

1. I have a 100 amp service. If I turn off the main circuit breaker
can I change for instance a 20 amp breaker without worry of shock if I
don't touch anything else other than the breaker and the wire that
needs to be unscrewed? (I have a few that don't match my GE panel and
I heard that they should)

Most people don't even bother to do that, but yes; the box should be dead
if
the main breaker is open. Never touch a potentially live wire without
testing it first!

You're suggesting that most people replace breakers without turning off
the main breaker? Not only is that irresponsible to suggest to the
OP, who clearly identified himself as a novice, but on what basis do
you even make the claim that most people do it?

English must be a second language for one of us; I don't see where I
recommended that.
I have no hard statistics, but I haven't spoken to anyone who turns off the
main breaker so I expect it is the common practice.

Well, now you have. IMO, anyone who fiddles around with circuit
breakers without turning off the main breaker is an idiot. I always
turn it off. And I seriously doubt that most people don't turn off
the main breaker.

Well, you're seriously wrong. I've done my own electrical work for years
and have worked on electrical projects with numerous other people, both
residential and commercial and I've yet to run into anyone who shuts off
the main when changing branch circuit breakers, including removing /
installing bolt on breakers (Insulated nut driver and gloves of course).
The snap in breakers that are the norm in residential and many
commercial installations are specifically designed to be easy to remove
and install on a live bus.

Pete C.

Well, the OP, who's an obvious novice, doesn't have to listen to any of
us. He can just do a simple google search for "replacing circuit
breaker". There are plenty of websites with info. He can see what
they recommend doing. And I'm sure he'll find that virtually every one
of them has turning off the main breaker as the first step. Then he
can decide what he thinks most people would do and make his own choice.

That wasn't the point, my response was to you very incorrect "And I
seriously doubt that most people don't turn off the main breaker". I
have no doubt that any DIY home wiring book or online equivalent has a
lawyer mandated "turn off the main breaker" warning regardless of the
validity of such. I seriously doubt any lawyer has ever changed a
circuit breaker either.

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to
a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated
plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure
connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two
pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household
items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp
breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's
exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick
both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is
exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is
to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than
120.

If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's
only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't
insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who
admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change
a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the
main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple
decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person
that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know"
does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is
a random and representative sample of the population.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable to
a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated
plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure
connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a two
pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common household
items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+ amp
breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's
exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick
both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers is
exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than it is
to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get 240 than
120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a
"shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection
points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's
still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts.
Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of
factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging
across for 240V isn't one of them.


If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so, it's
only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but don't
insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who
admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to change
a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not turn the
main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a couple
decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single person
that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I know"
does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you know" is
a random and representative sample of the population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+
years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a
sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not
turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did,
but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

Pete C.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable
to a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated
plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure
connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a
two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common
household items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+
amp breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's
exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick
both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers
is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than
it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get
240 than 120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a
"shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection
points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite
sufficient.

Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's
still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts.

Are you really this ignorant?

Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of
factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging
across for 240V isn't one of them.

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.


If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so,
it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but
don't insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who
admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to
change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not
turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a
couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single
person that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I
know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you
know" is a random and representative sample of the population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+
years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a
sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not
turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did,
but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling
us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much comparable
to a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an insulated
plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring pressure
connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with a
two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common
household items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a 100+
amp breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot that's
exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless you stick
both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by breakers
is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two lugs than
it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more likely to get
240 than 120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a
"shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection
points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite
sufficient.

Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other
brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact.


Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's
still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts.

Are you really this ignorant?

Apparently you are.


Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of
factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging
across for 240V isn't one of them.

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.

If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other
hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool.



If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so,
it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but
don't insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger who
admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to
change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not
turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in a
couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a single
person that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I
know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody you
know" is a random and representative sample of the population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+
years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a
sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not
turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did,
but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are telling
us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at
that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do
residential because they aren't good enough for commercial.

Pete C.


--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much
comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an
insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring
pressure connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with
a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common
household items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a
100+ amp breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot
that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless
you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather
irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by
breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two
lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more
likely to get 240 than 120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a
"shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection
points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite
sufficient.

Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other
brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact.


Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's
still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts.

Are you really this ignorant?

Apparently you are.


Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of
factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging
across for 240V isn't one of them.

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.

If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other
hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool.



If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so,
it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but
don't insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of
clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger
who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to
change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not
turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in
a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a
single person that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I
know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody
you know" is a random and representative sample of the population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+
years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a
sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not
turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did,
but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are
telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at
that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do
residential because they aren't good enough for commercial.

If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who
to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin
Award.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much
comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an
insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a spring
pressure connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even with
a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are common
household items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a
100+ amp breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot
that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so unless
you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part is rather
irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by
breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across two
lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're more
likely to get 240 than 120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have a
"shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker connection
points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most other brands.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite
sufficient.

Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most other
brands so there is significantly less area to potentially contact.


Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but it's
still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what counts.

Are you really this ignorant?

Apparently you are.


Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot of
factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or bridging
across for 240V isn't one of them.

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.

If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the other
hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool.



If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do so,
it's only your time to reset everything that you're wasting, but
don't insist that everyone else should do the same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of
clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger
who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to
change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do not
turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker and in
a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run across a
single person that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody I
know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that "everybody
you know" is a random and representative sample of the population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in 20+
years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people a
sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do not
turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody did,
but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are
telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at
that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do
residential because they aren't good enough for commercial.

If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know who
to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin
Award.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off
the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the
breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you
won't get a single affirmative answer.

Do you also turn off the main breaker when changing a light bulb? Or do
you call an electrician to change them for you because you're afraid?

Pete C.

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

"J. Clarke" wrote:

Pete C. wrote:


snipped

Have to agree. The normal snap in breakers are very much
comparable to a regular 5-15 plug connection.

You are holding an insulated breaker case equivalent to an
insulated plug, and you are connecting / disconnecting a
spring pressure connection just like a plug.

All is at the same voltages you get with normal plugs, even
with a two pole breaker since 6-20 and 6-30 and 6-50 plugs are
common household items as well.

With "normal plugs" you don't have an exposed 240 volt bus on a
100+ amp breaker.

With a quality panel (like a Square D QO) you don't have a lot
that's exposed either. It's also still only 120V to ground so
unless you stick both hands in and touch both legs the 240V part
is rather irrelevant.

With the cover off the entire bus except those parts covered by
breakers is exposed, and it's a lot easier to get your hand across
two lugs than it is to get it across one leg and ground, so you're
more likely to get 240 than 120.

First off you should take a closer look at the QO panels, they have
a "shielded bus" design that only exposes the actual breaker
connection points, the rest of the busses are shielded unlike most
other brands.

So? Juice is juice. The "actual breaker connection points" are quite
sufficient.

Sufficient yes, but it's about 10% of the exposed live bus of most
other brands so there is significantly less area to potentially
contact.


Second point is that 240V across your fingers may not be nice, but
it's still only 120V through your body to ground and that's what
counts.

Are you really this ignorant?

Apparently you are.


Whether you get a lethal current across your heart depends on a lot
of factors, but your fingers contacting a single 120V terminal or
bridging across for 240V isn't one of them.

Depends on which fingers. One finger, no, one on each hand yes.

If you're dumb enough to manage to get one hand on one bus and the
other hand on the other bus we don't need you in the gene pool.



If you feel better turning off the main then by all means do
so, it's only your time to reset everything that you're
wasting, but don't insist that everyone else should do the
same.

If you want to risk your own life to save resetting a couple of
clocks
that's your choice. But to advocate that to a complete stranger
who admits to being clueless with regard to electrical wiring is
irresponsible in the extreme.

I never advocated that the OP do anything, I corrected someone's
incorrect assertion that most people turn the main breaker off to
change a branch circuit breaker. The fact is that most people do
not turn the main breaker off to change a branch circuit breaker
and in a couple decades of misc. electrical work I've not run
across a single person that did.

You are asserting that this is a _fact_. I should like to see the
methodology by which you determined this. And don't say "everybody
I know" does it unless you are prepared to demonstrate that
"everybody you know" is a random and representative sample of the
population.

I consider the fact that I have not seen a single person do it in
20+ years and hundreds of electrical projects with dozens of people
a sufficiently representative sample to conclude that most people do
not turn off the main. It would be a stretch to conclude that nobody
did, but it's a reasonable assessment that most do not.

I would say that rather than telling us what most people do, you are
telling us that you _really_ need to find some smarter friends.

Nope, at least 75% of those people were professionals and good ones at
that who primarily do commercial work, not the hacks that only do
residential because they aren't good enough for commercial.

If you are located in CT or MA I want a list of these people so I know
who
to avoid in the future. Otherwise, I'm looking forward to your Darwin
Award.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off
the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the
breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you
won't get a single affirmative answer.

Do you also turn off the main breaker when changing a light bulb?

Not an analogous situation in _any_ sense.

--
--John
to email, dial "usenet" and validate
(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Pete C. wrote:

Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off
the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the
breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you
won't get a single affirmative answer.

I'm a licensed master electrician in two States with 30 years
experience, doing mostly large commercial and industrial. I supervise
10 to 20 experienced journeyman electrician's. I can assure you that I
de-energize _all_ electric equipment when possible. I encourage all
electrician's on my crew to de-energize all equipment, use PPE, and
lockout/tagout. If it is an inconvenience for the customer, we will
schedule a shutdown. Sure, electrician's work stuff hot, but not
without assessing the hazards, taking precautions, using PPE, having
people around (and who stay far enough away) who are capable of
rendering assistance should something happen, etc. I do not permit
inexperienced electrician's to work anything hot, period. In this
newsgroup, with mostly inexperienced people doing DIY, IMHO it is
irresponsible to tell folks to work _anything_ hot.

Anyone who has done any amount of electric work knows that a lot of
work is done hot without PPE; it's just the nature of the beast.
However, I can tell you plenty of horror stories about how
electrician's and others have been seriously injured working electric
equipment hot. Part of being qualified to do electric work is being
aware of the _hazards_ that exist. I personally am amazed at the
number of people who are aware of shock/electrocution hazards, yet have
no idea that there is also an explosion hazard.

One thing is for sure, should one make the personal decision to work
electric equipment while it's energized, should an accident happen, the
_first_ thing that that person is going to hear from someone ( _IF_
he/she is still alive and _IF_ he/she can still hear or see) is:' You
should have de-energized that equipment."

volts500 wrote:

Pete C. wrote:

Suggest you call around and as any licensed electrician if they turn off
the main breaker when replacing a branch circuit breaker (unless the
breaker being removed is physically damaged of course). Suspect you
won't get a single affirmative answer.

I'm a licensed master electrician in two States with 30 years
experience, doing mostly large commercial and industrial. I supervise
10 to 20 experienced journeyman electrician's. I can assure you that I
de-energize _all_ electric equipment when possible. I encourage all
electrician's on my crew to de-energize all equipment, use PPE, and
lockout/tagout. If it is an inconvenience for the customer, we will
schedule a shutdown. Sure, electrician's work stuff hot, but not
without assessing the hazards, taking precautions, using PPE, having
people around (and who stay far enough away) who are capable of
rendering assistance should something happen, etc. I do not permit
inexperienced electrician's to work anything hot, period. In this
newsgroup, with mostly inexperienced people doing DIY, IMHO it is
irresponsible to tell folks to work _anything_ hot.

Anyone who has done any amount of electric work knows that a lot of
work is done hot without PPE; it's just the nature of the beast.
However, I can tell you plenty of horror stories about how
electrician's and others have been seriously injured working electric
equipment hot. Part of being qualified to do electric work is being
aware of the _hazards_ that exist. I personally am amazed at the
number of people who are aware of shock/electrocution hazards, yet have
no idea that there is also an explosion hazard.

One thing is for sure, should one make the personal decision to work
electric equipment while it's energized, should an accident happen, the
_first_ thing that that person is going to hear from someone ( _IF_
he/she is still alive and _IF_ he/she can still hear or see) is:' You
should have de-energized that equipment."

Indeed the LO/TO and PPE are appropriate in an industrial / commercial
environment, however do you or would you ever turn off the main breaker
to replace a branch circuit breaker of the snap-in variety in a
residential panel (barring physical damage to the breaker being
removed)?

Pete C.