When we purchased our present house there was already a run of 3'
diameter gray PVC conduit run in a chase from the unfinished basement
to the attic above the second story. There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).

I am bothered by several things about this arrangement, and would like
to clean it up if practical. In part this is driven by a requirement
to run several new circuits to the attic to feed some new remodel work.
Also, quality / code wise the present Romex exits at the top of the
PVC conduit, is folded over the edge, and is banded to the conduit with
electrical tape. This bothers me, as I'd rather not use this approach
for new runs.

My concept involves:
1. Cutting the existing Romex where it exits the conduit in the attic
and pulling it back down to the basement.
2. Adding two large junction boxes, perhaps 12" x 12" x 8", one
connected to both the basement and attic ends of the 3" conduit.
3. Replacing the vertical runs with #12 THHN. This would use less
volume, and simplify adding additional circuits.

My questions are. Is this OK? Better that existing / Worse? Other
suggested approaches?

A big part of what bothers me about the existing arrangement is the
"hanging weight" of the Romex vertically unsupported through 2+
stories. Just doesn't seem wise. So several separate questions:
1. What is the allowed unsupported vertical run length for #12 THHN?.
2. Would I be aby better off, to keep the wires from 'swinging' (can't
think of a better word) inside of the 3" conduit, to run several 1" EMT
lengths up inside of the 3" and put the THHN inside of thise?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce

pbs wrote:

When we purchased our present house there was already a run of 3'
diameter gray PVC conduit run in a chase from the unfinished basement
to the attic above the second story. There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).

I am bothered by several things about this arrangement, and would like
to clean it up if practical. In part this is driven by a requirement
to run several new circuits to the attic to feed some new remodel work.
Also, quality / code wise the present Romex exits at the top of the
PVC conduit, is folded over the edge, and is banded to the conduit with
electrical tape. This bothers me, as I'd rather not use this approach
for new runs.

My concept involves:
1. Cutting the existing Romex where it exits the conduit in the attic
and pulling it back down to the basement.
2. Adding two large junction boxes, perhaps 12" x 12" x 8", one
connected to both the basement and attic ends of the 3" conduit.
3. Replacing the vertical runs with #12 THHN. This would use less
volume, and simplify adding additional circuits.

My questions are. Is this OK? Better that existing / Worse? Other
suggested approaches?

A big part of what bothers me about the existing arrangement is the
"hanging weight" of the Romex vertically unsupported through 2+
stories. Just doesn't seem wise. So several separate questions:
1. What is the allowed unsupported vertical run length for #12 THHN?.
2. Would I be aby better off, to keep the wires from 'swinging' (can't
think of a better word) inside of the 3" conduit, to run several 1" EMT
lengths up inside of the 3" and put the THHN inside of thise?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce

Don't think of it as conduit, think of it as a chase which is what it
really is at present and why power and phone / CATV circuits are sharing
it. If you convert to using it as "real" conduit plan on finding a way
to run a separate conduit up for the phone / data since they can't share
a conduit.

NEC article 300.19 covers supporting conductors in a vertical raceway
and indicates one cable support to be provided at the top of the
vertical raceway or as close to it as practical. Intermediate supports
to be provided as necessary to limit the supported conductor length to
the valise in table 300.19(a) which indicate a 100' maximum for #18-#8
copper conductors. I presume your run is about 20'.

You will be able to get a much higher fill if you were to install a run
of smaller conduit through the chase and pull THHN through it. NEC annex
C lists a fill of 26 #12 THHN conductors in 1" EMT conduit, 23 in 1"
ENT.

The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.

Pete C.

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:22:46 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

pbs wrote:

When we purchased our present house there was already a run of 3'
diameter gray PVC conduit run in a chase from the unfinished basement
to the attic above the second story. There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).

I am bothered by several things about this arrangement, and would like
to clean it up if practical. In part this is driven by a requirement
to run several new circuits to the attic to feed some new remodel work.
Also, quality / code wise the present Romex exits at the top of the
PVC conduit, is folded over the edge, and is banded to the conduit with
electrical tape. This bothers me, as I'd rather not use this approach
for new runs.

My concept involves:
1. Cutting the existing Romex where it exits the conduit in the attic
and pulling it back down to the basement.
2. Adding two large junction boxes, perhaps 12" x 12" x 8", one
connected to both the basement and attic ends of the 3" conduit.
3. Replacing the vertical runs with #12 THHN. This would use less
volume, and simplify adding additional circuits.

My questions are. Is this OK? Better that existing / Worse? Other
suggested approaches?

A big part of what bothers me about the existing arrangement is the
"hanging weight" of the Romex vertically unsupported through 2+
stories. Just doesn't seem wise. So several separate questions:
1. What is the allowed unsupported vertical run length for #12 THHN?.
2. Would I be aby better off, to keep the wires from 'swinging' (can't
think of a better word) inside of the 3" conduit, to run several 1" EMT
lengths up inside of the 3" and put the THHN inside of thise?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce

Don't think of it as conduit, think of it as a chase which is what it
really is at present and why power and phone / CATV circuits are sharing
it. If you convert to using it as "real" conduit plan on finding a way
to run a separate conduit up for the phone / data since they can't share
a conduit.

NEC article 300.19 covers supporting conductors in a vertical raceway
and indicates one cable support to be provided at the top of the
vertical raceway or as close to it as practical. Intermediate supports
to be provided as necessary to limit the supported conductor length to
the valise in table 300.19(a) which indicate a 100' maximum for #18-#8
copper conductors. I presume your run is about 20'.

You will be able to get a much higher fill if you were to install a run
of smaller conduit through the chase and pull THHN through it. NEC annex
C lists a fill of 26 #12 THHN conductors in 1" EMT conduit, 23 in 1"
ENT.

The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.


Or you could run one fat cable, and put a sub-panel at the top.

Goedjn wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:22:46 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

pbs wrote:

When we purchased our present house there was already a run of 3'
diameter gray PVC conduit run in a chase from the unfinished basement
to the attic above the second story. There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).

I am bothered by several things about this arrangement, and would like
to clean it up if practical. In part this is driven by a requirement
to run several new circuits to the attic to feed some new remodel work.
Also, quality / code wise the present Romex exits at the top of the
PVC conduit, is folded over the edge, and is banded to the conduit with
electrical tape. This bothers me, as I'd rather not use this approach
for new runs.

My concept involves:
1. Cutting the existing Romex where it exits the conduit in the attic
and pulling it back down to the basement.
2. Adding two large junction boxes, perhaps 12" x 12" x 8", one
connected to both the basement and attic ends of the 3" conduit.
3. Replacing the vertical runs with #12 THHN. This would use less
volume, and simplify adding additional circuits.

My questions are. Is this OK? Better that existing / Worse? Other
suggested approaches?

A big part of what bothers me about the existing arrangement is the
"hanging weight" of the Romex vertically unsupported through 2+
stories. Just doesn't seem wise. So several separate questions:
1. What is the allowed unsupported vertical run length for #12 THHN?.
2. Would I be aby better off, to keep the wires from 'swinging' (can't
think of a better word) inside of the 3" conduit, to run several 1" EMT
lengths up inside of the 3" and put the THHN inside of thise?

Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce

Don't think of it as conduit, think of it as a chase which is what it
really is at present and why power and phone / CATV circuits are sharing
it. If you convert to using it as "real" conduit plan on finding a way
to run a separate conduit up for the phone / data since they can't share
a conduit.

NEC article 300.19 covers supporting conductors in a vertical raceway
and indicates one cable support to be provided at the top of the
vertical raceway or as close to it as practical. Intermediate supports
to be provided as necessary to limit the supported conductor length to
the valise in table 300.19(a) which indicate a 100' maximum for #18-#8
copper conductors. I presume your run is about 20'.

You will be able to get a much higher fill if you were to install a run
of smaller conduit through the chase and pull THHN through it. NEC annex
C lists a fill of 26 #12 THHN conductors in 1" EMT conduit, 23 in 1"
ENT.

The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.


Or you could run one fat cable, and put a sub-panel at the top.

What a great idea, when you trip a breaker you get to climb up into the
attic in the dark to reset it.

Pete C.

pbs wrote:
There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).


Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce


You need to pull all the communication cables out and
run them separately. Running them in the same conduit,
or chase as somebody said, is asking for interference
problems. If they are run in the same chase they should
be shielded from the power cables by a metal shield.

Bill Gill

On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 08:14:26 -0500, Bill Gill
wrote:

pbs wrote:
There are about 6 runs of
12-2/gnd Romex run from through this (as well as a few telephone, cable
TV and home network cables).


Thanks for your thoughts.
Bruce


You need to pull all the communication cables out and
run them separately. Running them in the same conduit,
or chase as somebody said, is asking for interference
problems. If they are run in the same chase they should
be shielded from the power cables by a metal shield.


Coax is already shielded. Some other cables (such as Cat5) aren't
shielded, but protected by other means (twisted pair).

Bill Gill
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 20:03:17 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Goedjn wrote:
The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.


Or you could run one fat cable, and put a sub-panel at the top.

What a great idea, when you trip a breaker you get to climb up into the
attic in the dark to reset it.

You could run another small cable, so there would be light up there.

Pete C.

:-)

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:22:46 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Don't think of it as conduit, think of it as a chase which is what it
really is at present and why power and phone / CATV circuits are sharing
it. If you convert to using it as "real" conduit plan on finding a way
to run a separate conduit up for the phone / data since they can't share
a conduit.

NEC article 300.19 covers supporting conductors in a vertical raceway
and indicates one cable support to be provided at the top of the
vertical raceway or as close to it as practical. Intermediate supports
to be provided as necessary to limit the supported conductor length to
the valise in table 300.19(a) which indicate a 100' maximum for #18-#8
copper conductors. I presume your run is about 20'.

Hmmm. I didn't do mine right, I think, but I'm not sure how bad you
all would find it.

In the shaft with the heating duct, there was between 1 and 2 square
feet of empty space, and between the 1st and 2nd floor, was a piece of
plywood as a firestop I guess. I don't know how thick, I can't see
it, but I drilled a half inch hole through it with a 6 foot drill bit
and a 1 foot extension, and reaching down as far as I could.

I ran one 12-2 Romex cable and one phone line, though the half inch
hole.

I didn't even think of plugging up the rest of the hole, (which is 8
feet from me when I lie on a piece of plywood in the attic). Is this
bad? How bad?

I think I stapled the Romex to the side of the bottom piece of an
attic truss, what functions as a floor joist, then continued
vertically another 5 feet to the top piece of the same truss and
stapled it again, then up the truss almost to the peak, with a couple
more staples, and from one truss to the next to the center of the
attic, where I mounted a ceiling fixture. Is this OK?

(I also connected ceiling lights in 2 bedrooms but I'd have to go look
where the wires go, exactly. I forget where I connected them, but I
know I used a box.)
...

The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.

Don't think this will work for me since the hole is 8 feet from the
closes place I can get.

Pete C.

mm wrote:

On Fri, 09 Jun 2006 18:22:46 GMT, "Pete C."
wrote:

Don't think of it as conduit, think of it as a chase which is what it
really is at present and why power and phone / CATV circuits are sharing
it. If you convert to using it as "real" conduit plan on finding a way
to run a separate conduit up for the phone / data since they can't share
a conduit.

NEC article 300.19 covers supporting conductors in a vertical raceway
and indicates one cable support to be provided at the top of the
vertical raceway or as close to it as practical. Intermediate supports
to be provided as necessary to limit the supported conductor length to
the valise in table 300.19(a) which indicate a 100' maximum for #18-#8
copper conductors. I presume your run is about 20'.

Hmmm. I didn't do mine right, I think, but I'm not sure how bad you
all would find it.

Dunno, I'm not an inspector, I'm just a guy who does all his own
electrical work and keeps a copy of the NEC on hand.


In the shaft with the heating duct, there was between 1 and 2 square
feet of empty space, and between the 1st and 2nd floor, was a piece of
plywood as a firestop I guess. I don't know how thick, I can't see
it, but I drilled a half inch hole through it with a 6 foot drill bit
and a 1 foot extension, and reaching down as far as I could.

Plywood is likely just the continuous sub floor of the 2nd floor. It
would function as a fire stop.


I ran one 12-2 Romex cable and one phone line, though the half inch
hole.

A pretty full 1/2" hole.


I didn't even think of plugging up the rest of the hole, (which is 8
feet from me when I lie on a piece of plywood in the attic). Is this
bad? How bad?

Considering the fill of the 1/2" hole, probably not that bad. If you
were really concerned you could take a couple of the intumescent fire
stop material packets that are available and sandwich them around the
cables up top, fasten them together with a couple cable ties and drop
the doughnut down the cables so it rests over the hole. I doubt that
would buy you much for such a small hole though.


I think I stapled the Romex to the side of the bottom piece of an
attic truss, what functions as a floor joist,

Attic truss should be ceiling joist (for the 2nd floor presumably). The
bottom chord of a roof truss is not rated for floor loading. As for the
fastening it sounds like that bottom chord would qualify as the top of
the raceway / chase which would be fine.

then continued
vertically another 5 feet to the top piece of the same truss and
stapled it again,

If the cable is hanging loose in space between the bottom and top chords
of the truss that's ok for suspended cable length, but not for cable
protection. The cable should either travel up one of the truss webs to
the ceiling, or should be fastened to a vertical stud to cover the
distance. If you install a vertical stud, be sure to only rigidly fasten
it at one end, the other end must be able to slide up and down or you
can compromise the truss.

then up the truss almost to the peak, with a couple
more staples, and from one truss to the next to the center of the
attic, where I mounted a ceiling fixture. Is this OK?

That sounds ok.


(I also connected ceiling lights in 2 bedrooms but I'd have to go look
where the wires go, exactly. I forget where I connected them, but I
know I used a box.)
...

Not sure, boxes need to have covers and be accessible i.e. not buried
behind sheetrock. Wires need to be fastened to studs or joists as
appropriate when they are running parallel and protected from damage
i.e. not exposed on the front of a stud, but on the side where it is
sheltered.


The only real problem I see is the way the cable is fastened at the top.
You should install a vertical stud next to the chase so that the romex
can come straight out of the chase and be secured to the stud with
proper clamps/straps/staples.
I would be a bit concerned about fire stopping the chase so it can't act
as a chimney. You should be able to get a bag of intumescent material
from an electrical supply house that can be stuffed in the end of the
chase to stop fires. Easily removable when you need to access the chase,
but when exposed to fire will expand to seal fully.

Don't think this will work for me since the hole is 8 feet from the
closes place I can get.

I wouldn't worry too much about a fairly full 1/2" hole in plywood
between two open spaces, it's a lot less of a threat than a 20' straight
run of 3" dia conduit which could get quite a draft going in a fire.

Pete C.


Pete C.

Mark Lloyd wrote:



Coax is already shielded. Some other cables (such as Cat5) aren't
shielded, but protected by other means (twisted pair).


But I don't believe the NEC allows it.

Bill

Bill Gill wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:



Coax is already shielded. Some other cables (such as Cat5) aren't
shielded, but protected by other means (twisted pair).


But I don't believe the NEC allows it.

Bill

The NEC doesn't allow low voltage com lines to share conduit with power
lines, this does not apply to a chase.

Pete C.

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 08:08:41 -0500, Bill Gill
wrote:

Mark Lloyd wrote:



Coax is already shielded. Some other cables (such as Cat5) aren't
shielded, but protected by other means (twisted pair).


But I don't believe the NEC allows it.


I think you're right about that. I was just saying that interference
is unlikely.

Bill
--
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.laughingsquid.com

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what
to have for lunch. Liberty is a well armed lamb
contesting the vote." - Benjamin Franklin