Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

mm wrote:
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Uhh. Electrocute means killed; don't need to add
it. Kind of like saying killed dead. Strange how
people don't know that some words mean the person
died, e.g.,"drown," "smothered," etc.

More strange and to the point is how a live wire
on a metal fence (chain link) that is grounded
through the fence and the supports in the ground,
sends electricity through the person touching the
fence. You would think the electricity would
travel the path of least resistance. But,
certainly lightening travels in strange ways.

"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.


It's not that hard to understand. The chain link fence is a good
conductor. The rest of the story looks like a bunch of resistors
connected in parallel. A fence post set into dry soil is going to have
some significant resistance. As will a post set in concrete. A damp
shoe will also have some significant resistance. If it's wet, it will
have less.

So, what you have looks like a bunch of resistors hanging off the
fence, of varying value, and the current will divide accordingly. To
be fatal, all the electric current doesn't have to flow through the
girl. All it takes is around 50ma. The rest of the current can be
flowing throught the poles to ground, etc. And if the line touching
the fence was a street line, there is plenty of current to go around,
plus voltage to overcome insulation.

wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.


It's not that hard to understand. The chain link fence is a good
conductor. The rest of the story looks like a bunch of resistors
connected in parallel. A fence post set into dry soil is going to have
some significant resistance. As will a post set in concrete. A damp
shoe will also have some significant resistance. If it's wet, it will
have less.

So, what you have looks like a bunch of resistors hanging off the
fence, of varying value, and the current will divide accordingly. To
be fatal, all the electric current doesn't have to flow through the
girl. All it takes is around 50ma. The rest of the current can be
flowing throught the poles to ground, etc. And if the line touching
the fence was a street line, there is plenty of current to go around,
plus voltage to overcome insulation.


30 ma will stop your breathing, 200 ma will stop your heart. The old
sparky electric chair sent 6 amps through the person being executed.

Bob

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...

Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'

"willshak" wrote in message
...
Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...

Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts. but perhaps there was a reason.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'

They all sat around praying for her. No one ever heard of CPR?

Bob

wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.


It's not that hard to understand. The chain link fence is a good
conductor. The rest of the story looks like a bunch of resistors
connected in parallel. A fence post set into dry soil is going to have
some significant resistance. As will a post set in concrete. A damp
shoe will also have some significant resistance. If it's wet, it will
have less.

So, what you have looks like a bunch of resistors hanging off the
fence, of varying value, and the current will divide accordingly. To
be fatal, all the electric current doesn't have to flow through the
girl. All it takes is around 50ma. The rest of the current can be
flowing throught the poles to ground, etc. And if the line touching
the fence was a street line, there is plenty of current to go around,
plus voltage to overcome insulation.

Okay, the new article confirms it happened; so obviously it is possible...
But the resistance through both shoes and the ground has to be many many
times the resistance though the fence. You are certain correct that the
current is split up among the available paths, but unless it was 100a I just
can't see her path would be enough.
Unless of course she was standing in mud and the fence was completely dry.
Or unless it was a 4000v line.

BGE, (Baltimore Gas and Electric) has said their equipment was NOT involved.
So at this point no one knows exactly why this child died. Yes you can see
line hangin down near the fence. But to me those lines look like they are
maybe the tension line that holds the cables taught between poles. But at
this point BGE is saying "NOT THEIR EQUIPMENT"

Searcher

RobertM wrote:
"willshak" wrote in message
...

Toller wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
...


Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts. but perhaps there was a reason.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'


They all sat around praying for her. No one ever heard of CPR?

Bob

I suppose the paramedics working on her while the teams prayed over her did.
It says she was breathing. You don't perform CPR on someone who is
breathing on their own.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'

Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
...

Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.

It's not that hard to understand. The chain link fence is a good
conductor. The rest of the story looks like a bunch of resistors
connected in parallel. A fence post set into dry soil is going to have
some significant resistance. As will a post set in concrete. A damp
shoe will also have some significant resistance. If it's wet, it will
have less.

So, what you have looks like a bunch of resistors hanging off the
fence, of varying value, and the current will divide accordingly. To
be fatal, all the electric current doesn't have to flow through the
girl. All it takes is around 50ma. The rest of the current can be
flowing throught the poles to ground, etc. And if the line touching
the fence was a street line, there is plenty of current to go around,
plus voltage to overcome insulation.


Okay, the new article confirms it happened; so obviously it is possible...
But the resistance through both shoes and the ground has to be many many
times the resistance though the fence. You are certain correct that the
current is split up among the available paths, but unless it was 100a I just
can't see her path would be enough.
Unless of course she was standing in mud and the fence was completely dry.
Or unless it was a 4000v line.

Let's all speculate on how it happened from what little information we have.
Maybe the wire had nothing to do with her electrocution. Maybe she just
got sprayed from a garden hose, was completely wet and was drying her
hair with a hair dryer.

--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'

snip

Okay, the new article confirms it happened; so obviously it is possible...
But the resistance through both shoes and the ground has to be many many
times the resistance though the fence. You are certain correct that the
current is split up among the available paths, but unless it was 100a I
just can't see her path would be enough.
Unless of course she was standing in mud and the fence was completely dry.
Or unless it was a 4000v line.

And you're the expert that offered advice on wiring a ceiling fan by wiring
the black, blue, white, green and bare all together.

"Toller" wrote in message
...

wrote in message
ups.com...
Okay, the new article confirms it happened; so obviously it is
possible...
But the resistance through both shoes and the ground has to be many many
times the resistance though the fence. You are certain correct that the
current is split up among the available paths, but unless it was 100a I
just
can't see her path would be enough.
Unless of course she was standing in mud and the fence was completely dry.
Or unless it was a 4000v line.


I did not see the kind of fence, so it could have been insulated from the
ground. It does not take 100a to kill. Just about anything from 10 to 20
miliamps up can kill. From the sound of the artical she did not die right
away but had breathing difficulties. To me this indicates that the shock
may have set the heart into an irrigular beat. The 60 hz current is
especially dangerous as this is around the same as the heart beats. Low
currents are often more dangerous as the higher currents will tend to make
your mussles contract and throw you off the wire or clamp the heart so it
will not go into the irrgular beats that do not pump the blood.
Unless the current is very high and burns the person, if CPR was started,
the girl may have survived.

In article , "Toller" wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
.. .
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.

Google the concept of "parallel circuit" for an explanation.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

It's time to throw all their damned tea in the harbor again.

"willshak" wrote in message
...


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts. but perhaps there was a reason.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines



Disclaimer: I don't know anything more about this story than what I've read
in this NG and the referenced URL.

Consider another possibility. The article was somewhat confusing. First it
said she leaned against the fence, then it said she put her foot against the
fence. Maybe they got cause and effect reversed. She might have been
breathing erratically because of a medical problem and leaned up against the
fence because she was starting to get dizzy. To the witnesses, it would have
appeared that everything was normal until she leaned against the fence and
then suddenly dropped to the ground.

It's also possible that the fence posts might have been routed in concrete
and that her body provided the best path to ground, but if she was wearing
sneakers and simply put her foot against the fence, the sneakers should have
provided sufficient insulation. She still would have needed an alternate
path to the fence and to the ground. I think that if the fence really were
live, someone (police, fire, other) would have found a way to determine
whether the fence was charged.

I think that a key piece of information is missing from this article.

Ralph Mowery wrote:
The 60 hz current is
especially dangerous as this is around the same as the heart beats.

60 cycles/second (Hz)
60 beats/minute (heart rate)

I always had problems with the decimal point on my sliderule
too... ;-)

(400Hz is much more effective(dangerous)for muscle stimulation)

-larry / dallas

Nick Danger wrote:
"willshak" wrote in message
...


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts. but perhaps there was a reason.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines




Disclaimer: I don't know anything more about this story than what I've read
in this NG and the referenced URL.

Consider another possibility. The article was somewhat confusing. First it
said she leaned against the fence, then it said she put her foot against the
fence. Maybe they got cause and effect reversed. She might have been
breathing erratically because of a medical problem and leaned up against the
fence because she was starting to get dizzy. To the witnesses, it would have
appeared that everything was normal until she leaned against the fence and
then suddenly dropped to the ground.

It's also possible that the fence posts might have been routed in concrete
and that her body provided the best path to ground, but if she was wearing
sneakers and simply put her foot against the fence, the sneakers should have
provided sufficient insulation. She still would have needed an alternate
path to the fence and to the ground. I think that if the fence really were
live, someone (police, fire, other) would have found a way to determine
whether the fence was charged.

I think that a key piece of information is missing from this article.



Maybe several key pieces. Newspaper stories are
often not very reliable and often misleading. You
have to remember most newspaper and TV reporters
know very little about anything related to
electricity, biology, medicine, or any science. I
use to collect silly statements published in
newspapers. One article, don't remember the
subject, was memorable in mentioning a "single
celled insect."

Nick Danger wrote:
"willshak" wrote in message
...


Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path through
her shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and fence
posts. but perhaps there was a reason.
http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/loc...ocal-headlines



Disclaimer: I don't know anything more about this story than what I've read
in this NG and the referenced URL.

Consider another possibility. The article was somewhat confusing. First it
said she leaned against the fence, then it said she put her foot against the
fence. Maybe they got cause and effect reversed. She might have been
breathing erratically because of a medical problem and leaned up against the
fence because she was starting to get dizzy. To the witnesses, it would have
appeared that everything was normal until she leaned against the fence and
then suddenly dropped to the ground.

It's also possible that the fence posts might have been routed in concrete
and that her body provided the best path to ground, but if she was wearing
sneakers and simply put her foot against the fence, the sneakers should have
provided sufficient insulation. She still would have needed an alternate
path to the fence and to the ground.

I agree that no one knows at this point what really happened. It's
possible that she wasn't even shocked at all and just died from a
pre-existing medical condition. However, a sneaker doesn't provide
sufficient insulation. Sneakers are often damp, have cracks, gaps or
other defects which allow an electric current to flow, especially if
it's a higher voltage as you would have on a utility wire. I remember
being at a car crash one night years ago, where a utility pole was
knocked down. Wires were hanging over the car. A bystander picked up
a tree branch and was using it to try to move the wires, because wood
isn't a conductor right? But this is 14KV potentially live line and a
random dead tree branch has moisture, could even be saturated. Not a
smart move.





I think that if the fence really were
live, someone (police, fire, other) would have found a way to determine
whether the fence was charged.

I think that a key piece of information is missing from this article.

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?

You can always go to news.google.com and search on key words, such as
baltimore and electrocuted. According to one story, she was breathing,
rescue crews were called and then she was taken to the hospital.

David Ames

On Sat, 06 May 2006 04:39:35 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

mm wrote:
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Uhh. Electrocute means killed; don't need to add
it. Kind of like saying killed dead. Strange how
people don't know that some words mean the person
died, e.g.,"drown," "smothered," etc.

More strange and to the point is how a live wire
on a metal fence (chain link) that is grounded

Yes, it was chain link, and fwiw taller and wider than such things
were when I was little.

through the fence and the supports in the ground,
sends electricity through the person touching the
fence. You would think the electricity would
travel the path of least resistance. But,

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

certainly lightening travels in strange ways.

On Sat, 06 May 2006 10:03:18 -0400, willshak
wrote:


Let's all speculate on how it happened from what little information we have.
Maybe the wire had nothing to do with her electrocution. Maybe she just
got sprayed from a garden hose, was completely wet and was drying her
hair with a hair dryer.

Well, it was the middle of what I think is the biggest park in
Baltimore, Druid Hill Park. I'm looking for the new article now.

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.

George E. Cawthon wrote:



Maybe several key pieces. Newspaper stories are often not very reliable
and often misleading. You have to remember most newspaper and TV
reporters know very little about anything related to electricity,
biology, medicine, or any science. I use to collect silly statements


I think that is the understatement of the year.


published in newspapers. One article, don't remember the subject, was
memorable in mentioning a "single celled insect."

On Sat, 06 May 2006 09:57:36 -0400, willshak
wrote:

I suppose the paramedics working on her while the teams prayed over her did.
It says she was breathing. You don't perform CPR on someone who is
breathing on their own.

Yeah, it's pretty funny on tv dramas (and maybe movies too) where as
far as any one can tell the person has only fainted, but right away
they're doing cpr without checking for breathing or a heartbeat.

And there are some who have a heartbeat but aren't breathing, at least
those who have inhaled water.

On Sat, 06 May 2006 20:04:07 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:

Maybe several key pieces. Newspaper stories are
often not very reliable and often misleading. You
have to remember most newspaper and TV reporters
know very little about anything related to
electricity, biology, medicine, or any science. I
use to collect silly statements published in
newspapers. One article, don't remember the
subject, was memorable in mentioning a "single
celled insect."

Don't they have to have at least 6 cells, one for each leg?

On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:24:48 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.

Aren't you agreeing with me?

By the lack of rain, I meant that the victim wasn't standing on mud or
in wet grass, whereas maybe the posts go down to wet soil. (although
I hadn't considered the fence poles being mounted in cement.)

I'm saying the current should have gone thRough the fence.


Missed the first 10 or 20 seconds of the story at 6:30, but it seems
there is a light pole erected about a year ago, and someone today had
painted a red line from it to the backstop.

So at this point, it seems the cable resting on the backstop had
nothing to do with it, and people just jumped to that conclusion.
Kudos to whoever suggested this.

I looked at the URL someone posted, but by the time I got there, there
was no picture, and the news this evening showed pictures the ground
and the base of that light pole.

This still doesn't say why the backstop wasn't grounded sufficiently
and would go through her.

I'll try to find the story at 11PM.

And I'll try to look in the paper, but I really don't like the Sunday
paper anymore. So much bulk I have to get rid of.

mm wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 20:04:07 GMT, "George E. Cawthon"
wrote:


Maybe several key pieces. Newspaper stories are
often not very reliable and often misleading. You
have to remember most newspaper and TV reporters
know very little about anything related to
electricity, biology, medicine, or any science. I
use to collect silly statements published in
newspapers. One article, don't remember the
subject, was memorable in mentioning a "single
celled insect."


Don't they have to have at least 6 cells, one for each leg?

Yep, sounds about right. Just like trees, one
cell for each branch, right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_shock

"David Ames" wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:
"mm" wrote in message
...
Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?

You can always go to news.google.com and search on key words, such as
baltimore and electrocuted. According to one story, she was breathing,
rescue crews were called and then she was taken to the hospital.

I did, nothing came up; my post was 10 hours before yours.

mm wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:24:48 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.

Aren't you agreeing with me?

By the lack of rain, I meant that the victim wasn't standing on mud or
in wet grass, whereas maybe the posts go down to wet soil. (although
I hadn't considered the fence poles being mounted in cement.)

I'm saying the current should have gone thRough the fence.

The current will go through the fence and to ground via multiple paths.
It doesn't all have to go one way. The poles in the earth have some
finite and significant resistance. As does the path through the girl
and to ground. You could have 20 amps going to ground through the
fence poles, 50ma going through the girl, and it could be fatal.






Missed the first 10 or 20 seconds of the story at 6:30, but it seems
there is a light pole erected about a year ago, and someone today had
painted a red line from it to the backstop.

So at this point, it seems the cable resting on the backstop had
nothing to do with it, and people just jumped to that conclusion.
Kudos to whoever suggested this.

I looked at the URL someone posted, but by the time I got there, there
was no picture, and the news this evening showed pictures the ground
and the base of that light pole.

This still doesn't say why the backstop wasn't grounded sufficiently
and would go through her.

I'll try to find the story at 11PM.

And I'll try to look in the paper, but I really don't like the Sunday
paper anymore. So much bulk I have to get rid of.

wrote:
mm wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:24:48 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:


Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.

Aren't you agreeing with me?

By the lack of rain, I meant that the victim wasn't standing on mud or
in wet grass, whereas maybe the posts go down to wet soil. (although
I hadn't considered the fence poles being mounted in cement.)

I'm saying the current should have gone thRough the fence.


The current will go through the fence and to ground via multiple paths.
It doesn't all have to go one way. The poles in the earth have some
finite and significant resistance. As does the path through the girl
and to ground. You could have 20 amps going to ground through the
fence poles, 50ma going through the girl, and it could be fatal.






Missed the first 10 or 20 seconds of the story at 6:30, but it seems
there is a light pole erected about a year ago, and someone today had
painted a red line from it to the backstop.

So at this point, it seems the cable resting on the backstop had
nothing to do with it, and people just jumped to that conclusion.
Kudos to whoever suggested this.

I looked at the URL someone posted, but by the time I got there, there
was no picture, and the news this evening showed pictures the ground
and the base of that light pole.

This still doesn't say why the backstop wasn't grounded sufficiently
and would go through her.

I'll try to find the story at 11PM.

And I'll try to look in the paper, but I really don't like the Sunday
paper anymore. So much bulk I have to get rid of.


As mentioned previously, Current does indeed seek out shortest patch,
but that does not mean that would only take that path. Someone else
mentioned parallel circuits, that hold true.

Other conditions could have been post in cement creating more of an
insulation barrier, group around posts was dry not providing sufficient
grounding to sink most of the current, etc.

And since do not have enough facts about the incident, only guessing.

MC wrote:
wrote:

mm wrote:

On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:24:48 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:


Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.


Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE
resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.


Aren't you agreeing with me?

By the lack of rain, I meant that the victim wasn't standing on mud or
in wet grass, whereas maybe the posts go down to wet soil. (although
I hadn't considered the fence poles being mounted in cement.)

I'm saying the current should have gone thRough the fence.



The current will go through the fence and to ground via multiple paths.
It doesn't all have to go one way. The poles in the earth have some
finite and significant resistance. As does the path through the girl
and to ground. You could have 20 amps going to ground through the
fence poles, 50ma going through the girl, and it could be fatal.






Missed the first 10 or 20 seconds of the story at 6:30, but it seems
there is a light pole erected about a year ago, and someone today had
painted a red line from it to the backstop.

So at this point, it seems the cable resting on the backstop had
nothing to do with it, and people just jumped to that conclusion.
Kudos to whoever suggested this.

I looked at the URL someone posted, but by the time I got there, there
was no picture, and the news this evening showed pictures the ground
and the base of that light pole.

This still doesn't say why the backstop wasn't grounded sufficiently
and would go through her.

I'll try to find the story at 11PM.

And I'll try to look in the paper, but I really don't like the Sunday
paper anymore. So much bulk I have to get rid of.



As mentioned previously, Current does indeed seek out shortest patch,
but that does not mean that would only take that path. Someone else
mentioned parallel circuits, that hold true.

Other conditions could have been post in cement creating more of an
insulation barrier, group around posts was dry not providing sufficient
grounding to sink most of the current, etc.

And since do not have enough facts about the incident, only guessing.




It is very unlikely that encasing metal fence post in concrete would
increase there impedance. Work done by MR. Ufer during world war two
showed that concrete encased electrodes have a lower impedance to earth
than the same electrode buried directly. The obvious caveat is that
the concrete must not be poured into holes lined with plastic or any
other non conductive material.
--
Tom of the sparks and arcs

"This alternating current thing is just a fad. It is much too dangerous
for general use." Thomas Alva Edison

willshak wrote:

http://www.wjla.com/news/stories/0506/325663.html
Toller wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

Toller wrote:

"mm" wrote in message
...

Not at home, but tonight in Baltimore, a girl was tying her shoe and
had her foot on the 12 or 15 foot fence behind home plate of a
softball field, and she was electrocuted (to death). On tv, one
could
see an electric wire that must have run above the fence, lying on the
fence.

I don't know if the wire ran above the fence when the wire wasn't
sagging, but I wouldn't be surprised.

Can you reference this?
Hard to imagine why the electricity would have followed a path
through her
shoe and body to ground, rather than just through the fence and
fence posts.
but perhaps there was a reason.

It's not that hard to understand. The chain link fence is a good
conductor. The rest of the story looks like a bunch of resistors
connected in parallel. A fence post set into dry soil is going to have
some significant resistance. As will a post set in concrete. A damp
shoe will also have some significant resistance. If it's wet, it will
have less.

So, what you have looks like a bunch of resistors hanging off the
fence, of varying value, and the current will divide accordingly. To
be fatal, all the electric current doesn't have to flow through the
girl. All it takes is around 50ma. The rest of the current can be
flowing throught the poles to ground, etc. And if the line touching
the fence was a street line, there is plenty of current to go around,
plus voltage to overcome insulation.


Okay, the new article confirms it happened; so obviously it is
possible...
But the resistance through both shoes and the ground has to be many
many times the resistance though the fence. You are certain correct
that the current is split up among the available paths, but unless it
was 100a I just can't see her path would be enough.
Unless of course she was standing in mud and the fence was completely
dry.
Or unless it was a 4000v line.

Let's all speculate on how it happened from what little information we
have.
Maybe the wire had nothing to do with her electrocution. Maybe she
just got sprayed from a garden hose, was completely wet and was drying
her hair with a hair dryer.



--
Bill
In Hamptonburgh, NY
To Email, remove the double zeroes after 'at'

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Actually, I'm pretty sure that the best path to ground
is back through the toaster, unless whoever threw it
cut the nuetral (and ground, if any) first.

Mind you, I don't plan to TEST this theory.

On 7 May 2006 07:53:48 -0700, wrote:


mm wrote:
On Sat, 06 May 2006 21:24:48 GMT, "Noozer" wrote:

Absolutely. I didn't even think of that this time, but I even asked
about this here once, about why would, as in Goldfinger, a heater
thrown in a tub electrocute someone when the quickest path to the
ground seemed to be through the water to the drain. Or if the drain
wasn't a ground, what would be?

Surely the fence poles in the ground made a better ground than the
rubber sole of her sneakers. Or even a leather sole. It hasn't even
rained for days.

Because .0001ohms resistance of the fence alone is still MORE resitance than
the same .0001ohms + the 1meg ohms provided by a sneaker.

Aren't you agreeing with me?

By the lack of rain, I meant that the victim wasn't standing on mud or
in wet grass, whereas maybe the posts go down to wet soil. (although
I hadn't considered the fence poles being mounted in cement.)

I'm saying the current should have gone thRough the fence.

The current will go through the fence and to ground via multiple paths.
It doesn't all have to go one way. The poles in the earth have some
finite and significant resistance. As does the path through the girl
and to ground. You could have 20 amps going to ground through the
fence poles, 50ma going through the girl, and it could be fatal.

OK, you've convinced me.


I didn't expect more info before today, because of the weekend, but
even today Monday tthere is no statement as to what the cause was.

There is apparently an underground cable that passes by the backstop,
that may have gone in a year ago, but I'm sure they didn't dig right
up to the posts to lay it.

They haven't said anything about measuring the voltage on the fence.
Theyve had plenty of time to reconnect what ever they had
disconnected, and check what makes the fence hot. But no word, at
least on tv, and frankly, the paper only sometimes says more than the
tv does.

Also, why her? Why then? I'm sure may other people had touched the
fence. She may have had both hands and her foot on it, although that
doesn't seem likely to me (who never does stretching.)

I'll try to follow the story to the end, and keep you informed. Don't
know when that will be.

But if they can't get their act together, it shows how careful we all
should be.



Missed the first 10 or 20 seconds of the story at 6:30, but it seems
there is a light pole erected about a year ago, and someone today had
painted a red line from it to the backstop.

So at this point, it seems the cable resting on the backstop had
nothing to do with it, and people just jumped to that conclusion.
Kudos to whoever suggested this.

I looked at the URL someone posted, but by the time I got there, there
was no picture, and the news this evening showed pictures the ground
and the base of that light pole.

This still doesn't say why the backstop wasn't grounded sufficiently
and would go through her.

I'll try to find the story at 11PM.

And I'll try to look in the paper, but I really don't like the Sunday
paper anymore. So much bulk I have to get rid of.