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#1
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Hiya,
Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler for a refrigeration unit. Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at me. Do these units use recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the outside? If they recirc, then I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and aesthetically) way to add a return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of how these units work (I've been in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious. Thanks much, jlc |
#2
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya, Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler for a refrigeration unit. Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at me. Do these units use recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the outside? If they recirc, then I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and aesthetically) way to add a return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of how these units work (I've been in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious. Thanks much, jlc Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and use same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise would run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close all doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc. I've had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like Denver), you won't like AC. --reed |
#3
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"Reed" wrote in message ink.net... Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and use same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise would run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close all doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc. I've had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like Denver), you won't like AC. --reed Yup, I've got forced air. Trouble is, the Swamp cooler isn't located near the furnace. The furnace supply feeds the floors of the house while pulling from a couple large vents in the walls. My swamp cooler is on the ground not near one of these return grilles. So it looks like I'm SOL unless I want to do some major stuff. In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate. I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles. I'd prefer the refrigerated route but I'll make do with the swamp it looks like. Thanks much, jlc |
#4
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"Reed" wrote in message ink.net... James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote: Hiya, Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler for a refrigeration unit. Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at me. Do these units use recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the outside? If they recirc, then I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and aesthetically) way to add a return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of how these units work (I've been in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious. Thanks much, jlc Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and use same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise would run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close all doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc. I've had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like Denver), you won't like AC. --reed And of course in Phoenix, the humidity of the monsoon season will make you glad you've gone AC in July and August. If you don't have forced air heat with a return air system now, there are AC units that mount a somewhat attractive unit on the upper wall of a room and run two small refrigerant tubes outside to the condenser. I think Mitsubishi is one manufacturer. This was one possible solution for my Mother's house which has hot water heat and no ductwork of any kind. The other was what I think they called a high pressure system which had a series of small round vents installed along the outer edge of the ceiling and connected by flexible hose to one large duct that ran down the center of the attic. One large return would have been cut into the ceiling in a central hall area. Ended up purchasing a portable AC unit that connected to a window with flexible vent tube. She's 84 and can't be convinced that air conditioning isn't inherently bad for the health. She'll only turn it on once or twice per season. |
#5
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote:
... In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate. I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles. You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%. This works in Melbourne Australia... We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways. I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold. We then pondered the idea of a central attrium with a full floor to ceiling waterfall for cooling and humidiexhaust fans around the perimeter of the house. Very low power, and everyone liked the idea of a waterfall in the loungeroom (particularly with adjustable flow/noise rate). Nick |
#6
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Yup, I've got forced air. Trouble is, the Swamp cooler isn't located near the furnace. The furnace supply feeds the floors of the house while pulling from a couple large vents in the walls. My swamp cooler is on the ground not near one of these return grilles. So it looks like I'm SOL unless I want to do some major stuff. In a standard AC system, only the compressor unit is outside the house, connected by 2 small pipes to the refrig coil unit, which is mounted inside the furnace's plenum, usually above the heat exchanger in an updraft furnace. It also uses the furnace's existing blower to circulate the refrig air. No large ducts go outside, so it may be possible to replace the swamper with the compressor unit, depending on distance. Other solutions could be as other poster mentioned. --reed |
#7
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#8
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Oscar wrote:
wrote: James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles. You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%. This works in Melbourne Australia... Few use swamp coolers there. I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-) Practically every new house built (and there are a lot of these at the moment, most badly designed and over priced) has a large swamp cooler mounted on the roof. Melbourne is rarely humid. I think the highest dewpoint recorded is 23C. We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) Its a ****ed approach with a swamp cooler, nowhere for the higher humidity that comes out of the cooler to get out of the house. Reading more carefully, you might wonder what the exhaust fan does. and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes 35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from -3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23. Nick |
#9
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#10
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote:
wrote: This works in Melbourne Australia... Few use swamp coolers there. I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-) When did you live in Melbourne? In a house. -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ |
#11
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote: wrote: This works in Melbourne Australia... Few use swamp coolers there. I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-) When did you live in Melbourne? In a house. The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-) |
#12
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:31:12 GMT, Rich256 wrote:
wrote: On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote: wrote: This works in Melbourne Australia... Few use swamp coolers there. I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-) When did you live in Melbourne? In a house. The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-) Oh. Nevermind. -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ |
#13
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Rich256 wrote:
When did you live in Melbourne? In a house. The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-) Don't give me no smiley face. I'm a ****ing jerk-ass piece of **** and don't you forget it. Have a nice day. -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ |
#14
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Forger alert Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
The asshole anoymous pussy-boi Canadian forger is back
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:58:09 -0500, " wrote: Rich256 wrote: When did you live in Melbourne? In a house. The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-) Don't give me no smiley face. I'm a ****ing jerk-ass piece of **** and don't you forget it. Have a nice day. -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ |
#16
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"SQLit" wrote in message ... Sounds to me like your not as far off from the goal as you think. If the swamper is outside on the ground and you intend to remove it then the duct work from the swamper to the first register in the home can be removed. Replace the furnace with a furnace and a "A" coil for the a/c. Duct work can be larger for swampers than the a/c. I have seen homes in Phoenix with 2 complete duct work systems so that the moist air does not bother the "A" coil. I usually install a damper above the "A" and you just have to remember to change positions for the system running. Ask around and find someone who has done several of these conversions. Experience is the key. Then add some insulation in the attic. Thanks. I'll call around and see what they say. I really don't want to be tearing up the slab, walls, roof for this so we'll just see what's doable. I can't add insulation in the attic cause there isn't one (flat roofed house). I really just wanted to see if this was doable without major construction/costs. Sounds like "maybe" is the answer and my best bet is to get someone in here that knows what they're doing! Cheers, cc |
#17
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
In a dry climate it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on
recirculated air. It is more effective to directly cool the outside air, force this cooled air into the home and allow room air to exhaust outside. I proved this on your last flooded floor scenario, or was it the inverted pool of pine, the cool tower |
#18
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"Abby Normal" wrote in message oups.com... In a dry climate it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on recirculated air. It is more effective to directly cool the outside air, force this cooled air into the home and allow room air to exhaust outside. I proved this on your last flooded floor scenario, or was it the inverted pool of pine, the cool tower Huh?? An evaporative cooler has to start with dry air to cool it down by evaporating water into it. If you recirculate the air it will get too damp to cool. You will have a damp and hot area Al |
#19
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
I was responding to what I have shown in quotes below Big Al. I was
mentioning that it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air. It is best to cool the outside air, force it into the home and displace room air outside, Using an evaporative cooler on indoor air will either require more water and higher volumes of air being moved and exhausted, or it will just simply over humidifiy a home. "From: - view profile Date: Sat, Mar 11 2006 12:31 am Email: Groups: alt.home.repair, sci.engr.heat-vent-ac, misc.consumers.frugal-living, alt.architecture.alternative You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%." |
#20
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes 35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from -3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23" You are simply too much, at clo=butt naked, anyone enduring a dewpoint of about 81.5F is not going to be comfortable and would be seeking air conditioned space. I endured a month of conditions similar to what you are postulating during a prolonged power outage after a Cat 5 storm, and with a small gen running ceiling fans and floor fans, it was no where near comfortable. After I salvaged a small window shaker AC that the gen could run, I managed to pull the house down to 83F and 68% RH, about a 71.4F dewpoint and compared to what it was like before with an 81.5 dewpoint it felt good but it was still a far cry from comfortable. |
#21
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Abby Normal wrote:
... it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air. In your opinion. Then again, I proved it was, using numbers :-) Nick |
#22
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#23
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Robert Gammon wrote:
wrote: Abby Normal wrote: ... it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air. ... Then again, I proved it was [a good idea], using numbers :-) And Nathan tried it out in Melbourne and said it worked fine, with an indoor swamp cooler that ran on a rising temp and a small exhaust fan that ran on a rising RH. So far we have a) basic physics with numbers, b) a successful experiment, and c) Abby's qualitative rants :-) Well alt.home.repair appears to have missed the thread. It's been there... How about this as a Swamp Cooler idea???? High pressure water (160-200psi min - up to 2000psi) thru very small orifice nozzles parallel to and pointing slightly away from the condenser coil of a Refrigeration A/C. Yogi Goswami tried that in Florida, with an energy savings of about 20%. But it seems better to trickle rainwater over the coils. You DO not want ANY of this spray to HIT the coils of the condenser even if you use ultra high purity water (i.e. RO or Distilled) as mineral plating will occur. Distilled water contains minerals? :-) Nick |
#24
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Robert Gammon wrote:
Well alt.home.repair appears to have missed the thread. How about this as a Swamp Cooler idea???? High pressure water (160-200psi min - up to 2000psi) thru very small orifice nozzles parallel to and pointing slightly away from the condenser coil of a Refrigeration A/C. You DO not want ANY of this spray to HIT the coils of the condenser even if you use ultra high purity water (i.e. RO or Distilled) as mineral plating will occur. The evaporation of this fine spray is rapid and will lower the temps of the air entering the condenser, thereby cooling the working fluid faster and to a lower temperature, shorter runtimes for the compressor, faster cooldown of the dwelling, etc. With a 160psi system I built, 4 nozzles consume about 2 gallons of water per hour of operation. Higher pressures with smaller nozzles will produce a much smaller droplet of water that will evaporate faster. These higher pressures will use more water, but produce a MUCH more impressive effect. Rheam used to make a condenser with copper coils. They sprayed water directly on the coils. It had a tank and pump similar to a swamp cooler. To prevent mineral buildup, about 1/3 the way down on the condenser coils there was a small trough that caught some of the water and drained it off. My understanding is that with the water cooking the efficiency improved at least 30% in a relatively dry climate. A big factory building in Southern California had a large decorative pool with fountains. It was the cooling pond for their air conditioner. The water began to get too warm so they raised the fountains about a foot or two to get more evaporation and cooling. Another method for home in a dry climate use would be to set a window swamp cooler on the ground in front of the condenser, cooling the freon with cooled air. |
#25
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#26
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
"Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong, I dream up
bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong" |
#27
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Abby Normal wrote:
"Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong, I dream up bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong" Odd that groups.google cant actually find anyone saying that except you. |
#28
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Rod Speed wrote: Abby Normal wrote: "Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong, I dream up bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong" Odd that groups.google cant actually find anyone saying that except you. Why yes troll king, I coined that prose. |
#29
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Where as all you can come up with is 'blotto' and 'wet paper bags'
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#30
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
On 6 Apr 2006 17:44:18 -0700, "Abby Normal"
wrote: Where as all you can come up with is 'blotto' and 'wet paper bags' Things slow down your way, dude ? :-) Time for some pine-climbing ? :-) -- Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!! http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/ Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me 'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.' 'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.' HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/ |
#31
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
No not slow actually quite hectic. This should be interesting though,
the tag time of nick and rocket rodney |
#32
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
lol tag team
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#33
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote:
... In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate. I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles. You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%. This works in Melbourne Australia... We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways. I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold. We then pondered the idea of a central attrium with a full floor to ceiling waterfall for cooling and humidiexhaust fans around the perimeter of the house. Very low power, and everyone liked the idea of a waterfall in the loungeroom (particularly with adjustable flow/noise rate). Nick Lol it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned on when humidity hit 65%. Funny how if you followed a constant wet bulb line from 28C/35% it pretty much hits 22C/65%. But you do not have much faith in wet bulb lines because they don't fit your 'physics' lol. Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on the exhaust fan at all, the swamp cooler sure sounds like it was working normal treating the outside air, except there was no obvious relief opening. Lol so they used power to run an exhaust fan rather than open a window. Way to go Nick you saved them some energy there. |
#34
Posted to alt.home.repair,sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,misc.consumers.frugal-living,alt.architecture.alternative
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Abby Normal wrote:
We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways. I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold... ... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned on when humidity hit 65%. There was no pressurization. Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on the exhaust fan at all... No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested. Nick |
#35
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#36
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Abby Normal wrote:
We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways. I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold... ... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned on when humidity hit 65%. There was no pressurization. Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on the exhaust fan at all... No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested. I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air. That wasn't explicitly stated above, but I know the ozzie in question, and we've discussed his experiment in detail, and that's what he did. Nick |
#37
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#38
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
Abby Normal wrote:
We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion). That night it was 28C and 35% outside. It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways. I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold... ... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned on when humidity hit 65%. There was no pressurization. Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on the exhaust fan at all... No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested. I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air. An indirect clarification from the ozzie: Ok, I've read the posts on this newsgroup, and I do have to wonder about the sort of people who have time to pointlessly argue and flame each other but not enough time to learn the basic physics about their topic of interest. I'm certainly not interested in posting directly to the group. Just to be sure, the swamp cooler was entirely inside the house, adding water to indoor vs outdoor air, right? That's correct... We have a 'closed room' with an evaporative cooler in the room. A duct taped box fan sits in the window and is run whenever the humidity rises above 60%. Conceptually it is the same as forcing the air into the house, except that it is demand driven, which seems to make it more efficient. The room also seems to cool down faster, as we use the existing somewhat cooler air for cooling first, and perhaps we heat exchange the air with the walls and doors as fresh air leaks in. Two potential improvements: 1) exhaust house air to an attic ("upducts") or some other cavity bordering an exterior surface, eg a garage or sunspace or storage space, and thereby reduce the usual conductive heatflow from the warmer outdoor air into the living space, or 2) use a humidistat and a reversible fan like Lasko's $55 2155A 16" window fan (90 watts at 2470 cfm on high speed) and Grainger's 2A179 $88.15 programmable cycle timer and its $4.37 5X852 octal socket to periodically reverse the fan direction when it needs to run, making a "Shurcliff lung" that turns all the cracks and crevices in the house envelope into bidirectional air-air heat exchangers. We need to get rid of moisture vapor, but it's more efficient to do that using cooled vs uncooled outdoor air. For optimal ventilation, run the fan long enough to actually move some outdoor air in through the wall cavities (vs moving a smaller amount of cavity air back and forth), but not so long that the wall thermal mass heats all the way to the outdoor air temp on the intake cycle. This works in Melbourne Australia... Few use swamp coolers there. What complete crap (do you normally spout unsubstantiated rubbish?). Evap coolers outsell heat pumps about 3 to 1 I'd be guessing. Every new house seems to come with a roof mount evap cooler. Not in Melbourne they dont. I wonder whether people are thinking of Melbourne, FL. (Perhaps these illiterates don't actually read before posting.) Double check the facts because the comment about closing windows against standard practise really makes it sound like they were pressurizing. Any time you move air around you are creating a pressure difference. I'm not sure what you are claiming here. I believe Abby was thinking the swamp cooler was trying to push outdoor air into the living space vs recirculating indoor air, ie "pressurizing" the living space. But the exhaust fan would DEpressurize the living space... The reason the windows are closed is because extra air coming in through an open window would simply add more heat, which we would have to remove. Once we are cooling enough to overcome infiltration extra air has no long term benefit. Commercial systems attempt to overcome this with a very big blower. Blowers are inefficient and noisy. Nick |
#39
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
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#40
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Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C
We ran the numbers before and it shows that more airflow and water was
needed when you treat the indoor air. When you get down to micrscopic cooling loads it may be possible for it to work on recirculated air. A recent article on evaporative cooling, used in industrial applications not home comfort. Note there is an importance of the ambinet wet bulb, a point nick does not want to acknowledge. http://www.hpac.com/member/feature/2...on.htm#fiction |
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