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James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

Hiya,
Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler for
a refrigeration unit.
Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at me.
Do these units use
recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the
outside? If they recirc, then
I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and
aesthetically) way to add a
return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of how
these units work (I've been
in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious.
Thanks much,
jlc


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Reed
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya,
Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler for
a refrigeration unit.
Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at me.
Do these units use
recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the
outside? If they recirc, then
I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and
aesthetically) way to add a
return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of how
these units work (I've been
in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious.
Thanks much,
jlc


Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and
use same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise
would run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close
all doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc.
I've had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like
Denver), you won't like AC.

--reed

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James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C


"Reed" wrote in message
ink.net...
Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and use
same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise would
run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close all
doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc. I've
had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like Denver), you
won't like AC.

--reed


Yup, I've got forced air. Trouble is, the Swamp cooler isn't located near
the furnace. The furnace supply feeds the
floors of the house while pulling from a couple large vents in the walls.
My swamp cooler is on the ground not near one
of these return grilles. So it looks like I'm SOL unless I want to do some
major stuff. In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated,
well that's a debate. I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but
not great. The last few years has seen higher than
normal humidities so at night it struggles. I'd prefer the refrigerated
route but I'll make do with the swamp it looks like.
Thanks much,
jlc


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Tom G
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C


"Reed" wrote in message
ink.net...
James "Cubby" Culbertson wrote:
Hiya,
Well I'm considering biting the bullet and changing out my swamp cooler
for a refrigeration unit.
Before I even bother with getting quotes, one question keeps nagging at
me. Do these units use
recirculated air from the house or are they pulling all the air from the
outside? If they recirc, then
I might as well not bother as there's really no viable (monetarily and
aesthetically) way to add a
return air duct to it. It's clear I don't have a good understanding of
how these units work (I've been
in swamp cooler land for 25 years!). Just curious.
Thanks much,
jlc

Do you have forced air heat system ?? If so, the AC fits within it and use
same existing ducting. Yes, it recirculates inside air, otherwise would
run continously and cost a fortune to operate. You normally close all
doors and windows, which can be its own problem re "stale" air etc. I've
had both systems; if swamper has been OK (ie dry climate like Denver), you
won't like AC.

--reed

And of course in Phoenix, the humidity of the monsoon season will make you
glad you've gone AC in July and August. If you don't have forced air heat
with a return air system now, there are AC units that mount a somewhat
attractive unit on the upper wall of a room and run two small refrigerant
tubes outside to the condenser. I think Mitsubishi is one manufacturer.
This was one possible solution for my Mother's house which has hot water
heat and no ductwork of any kind. The other was what I think they called a
high pressure system which had a series of small round vents installed along
the outer edge of the ceiling and connected by flexible hose to one large
duct that ran down the center of the attic. One large return would have
been cut into the ceiling in a central hall area. Ended up purchasing a
portable AC unit that connected to a window with flexible vent tube. She's
84 and can't be convinced that air conditioning isn't inherently bad for the
health. She'll only turn it on once or twice per season.


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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote:

... In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate. I live in
Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years
has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles.


You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn on
the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to 80 F
and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%.

This works in Melbourne Australia...

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.

It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.

I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and
they were sold. We then pondered the idea of a central attrium with a
full floor to ceiling waterfall for cooling and humidiexhaust fans around
the perimeter of the house. Very low power, and everyone liked the idea
of a waterfall in the loungeroom (particularly with adjustable flow/noise
rate).


Nick



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Reed
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C





Yup, I've got forced air. Trouble is, the Swamp cooler isn't located near
the furnace. The furnace supply feeds the
floors of the house while pulling from a couple large vents in the walls.
My swamp cooler is on the ground not near one
of these return grilles. So it looks like I'm SOL unless I want to do some
major stuff.


In a standard AC system, only the compressor unit is outside the house,
connected by 2 small pipes to the refrig coil unit, which is mounted
inside the furnace's plenum, usually above the heat exchanger in an
updraft furnace. It also uses the furnace's existing blower to circulate
the refrig air.

No large ducts go outside, so it may be possible to replace the swamper
with the compressor unit, depending on distance.

Other solutions could be as other poster mentioned.

--reed



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Oscar
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

wrote:
James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote


... In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate.
I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great.
The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities
so at night it struggles.


You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn
on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp
rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH
rises to 65%.


This works in Melbourne Australia...


Few use swamp coolers there.

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights
ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer
to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial
refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed
all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers)


Its a ****ed approach with a swamp cooler, nowhere for the
higher humidity that comes out of the cooler to get out of the house.

and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the
humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes,
then run for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me
suspect that the vapour was leaking out other ways.


I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own
little frugal living research group who meet in the tearoom in
csse.monash.edu.au) and people were surprised it worked, but I did
the maths on the whiteboard and they were sold. We then pondered
the idea of a central attrium with a full floor to ceiling waterfall
for cooling and humidiexhaust fans around the perimeter of the
house. Very low power, and everyone liked the idea of a waterfall
in the loungeroom (particularly with adjustable flow/noise rate).




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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

Oscar wrote:
wrote:
James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote


I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great.
The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities
so at night it struggles.


You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn
on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises
to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%.


This works in Melbourne Australia...


Few use swamp coolers there.


I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp
cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-)

Practically every new house built (and there are a lot of these at
the moment, most badly designed and over priced) has a large swamp cooler
mounted on the roof. Melbourne is rarely humid. I think the highest
dewpoint recorded is 23C.


We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights
ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer
to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial
refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed
all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers)


Its a ****ed approach with a swamp cooler, nowhere for the
higher humidity that comes out of the cooler to get out of the house.


Reading more carefully, you might wonder what the exhaust fan does.

and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the
humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s and
clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes 35 C at
65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from -3 = cold to +3
= hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort standard,
so he might have just used a ceiling fan on that day... 28C at 35% with clo
= 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.

Nick

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Rich256
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

wrote:
This works in Melbourne Australia...

Few use swamp coolers there.


I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp
cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-)


When did you live in Melbourne?
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.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
This works in Melbourne Australia...
Few use swamp coolers there.


I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp
cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-)


When did you live in Melbourne?


In a house.


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/


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Rich256
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
This works in Melbourne Australia...
Few use swamp coolers there.
I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp
cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-)

When did you live in Melbourne?


In a house.



The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-)
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.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 16:31:12 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 15:28:20 GMT, Rich256 wrote:

wrote:
This works in Melbourne Australia...
Few use swamp coolers there.
I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth) was too humid for swamp
cooling, but I was wrong (have you ever been wrong? :-)

When did you live in Melbourne?


In a house.



The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-)


Oh.

Nevermind.


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

Rich256 wrote:

When did you live in Melbourne?


In a house.


The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-)


Don't give me no smiley face. I'm a ****ing jerk-ass piece of ****
and don't you forget it.

Have a nice day.

--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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Default Forger alert Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

The asshole anoymous pussy-boi Canadian forger is back



On Sat, 11 Mar 2006 11:58:09 -0500, "
wrote:

Rich256 wrote:

When did you live in Melbourne?

In a house.


The question for Nick was "When" not "Where". :-)


Don't give me no smiley face. I'm a ****ing jerk-ass piece of ****
and don't you forget it.

Have a nice day.


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/
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Oscar
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

wrote
Oscar wrote
wrote
James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote


I live in Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great.
The last few years has seen higher than normal humidities
so at night it struggles.


You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg
turn on the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor
temp rises to 80 F and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor
RH rises to 65%.


This works in Melbourne Australia...


Few use swamp coolers there.


I too had the impression that Melbourne (vs Perth)
was too humid for swamp cooling, but I was wrong


They dont work very well there, which is why few bother with them.

(have you ever been wrong? :-)


Nope, never ever.

Practically every new house built (and there are a lot
of these at the moment, most badly designed and over
priced) has a large swamp cooler mounted on the roof.


Not in Melbourne they dont.

Melbourne is rarely humid. I think the highest dewpoint recorded is
23C.


'think' again.

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights
ago using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer
to control the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial
refrigerative split-cycle system for the swamp cooler. We closed
all the windows (against standard practice with swamp coolers)


Its a ****ed approach with a swamp cooler, nowhere for the
higher humidity that comes out of the cooler to get out of the house.


Reading more carefully, you might wonder what the exhaust fan does.


No point in closing all the windows, stupid.

and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp (22C) and the
humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes
35 C at 65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from


Presumably thats a typo and you mean 25C

Too cool for me.

-3 = cold to +3 = hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE
55-2004 comfort standard, so he might have just used a ceiling fan on
that day... 28C at 35% with clo = 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly
warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV = 0.23.


A properly designed swamp cooler system can run with
just the fan and no water, no need for extra ceiling fans.

Most think that 28C at 35% is too warm.




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James \Cubby\ Culbertson
 
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"SQLit" wrote in message
...

Sounds to me like your not as far off from the goal as you think. If the
swamper is outside on the ground and you intend to remove it then the duct
work from the swamper to the first register in the home can be removed.
Replace the furnace with a furnace and a "A" coil for the a/c.
Duct work can be larger for swampers than the a/c. I have seen homes in
Phoenix with 2 complete duct work systems so that the moist air does not
bother the "A" coil. I usually install a damper above the "A" and you
just
have to remember to change positions for the system running.

Ask around and find someone who has done several of these conversions.
Experience is the key.
Then add some insulation in the attic.



Thanks. I'll call around and see what they say. I really don't want to
be tearing up the slab, walls, roof
for this so we'll just see what's doable. I can't add insulation in the
attic cause there isn't one (flat roofed
house). I really just wanted to see if this was doable without major
construction/costs. Sounds like "maybe"
is the answer and my best bet is to get someone in here that knows what
they're doing!
Cheers,
cc


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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

In a dry climate it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on
recirculated air. It is more effective to directly cool the outside
air, force this cooled air into the home and allow room air to exhaust
outside. I proved this on your last flooded floor scenario, or was it
the inverted pool of pine, the cool tower

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Big Al
 
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"Abby Normal" wrote in message
oups.com...
In a dry climate it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on
recirculated air. It is more effective to directly cool the outside
air, force this cooled air into the home and allow room air to exhaust
outside. I proved this on your last flooded floor scenario, or was it
the inverted pool of pine, the cool tower


Huh?? An evaporative cooler has to start with dry air to cool it down by
evaporating water into it. If you recirculate the air it will get too damp
to cool. You will have a damp and hot area

Al


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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

I was responding to what I have shown in quotes below Big Al. I was
mentioning that it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor
air. It is best to cool the outside air, force it into the home and
displace room air outside,

Using an evaporative cooler on indoor air will either require more
water and higher volumes of air being moved and exhausted, or it will
just simply over humidifiy a home.


"From: - view profile
Date: Sat, Mar 11 2006 12:31 am
Email:
Groups: alt.home.repair, sci.engr.heat-vent-ac,
misc.consumers.frugal-living, alt.architecture.alternative


You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn
on
the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to
80 F
and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%."

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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

"Then again, 22C is cool, but comfy (PMV = 0.007), with vel = 0.1 m/s
and
clo = 1 insulation. Raising vel to 0.5 and lowering clo to 0.5 makes 35
C at
65% comfy (slightly cool, with PMV = -0.54, on a scale from -3 = cold
to +3
= hot), according to the BASIC program in the ASHRAE 55-2004 comfort
standard,
so he might have just used a ceiling fan on that day... 28C at 35% with
clo
= 0.5 and vel = 0.5 is "slightly warm" in the comfort zone, with PMV =
0.23"

You are simply too much, at clo=butt naked, anyone enduring a dewpoint
of about 81.5F is not going to be comfortable and would be seeking air
conditioned space.

I endured a month of conditions similar to what you are postulating
during a prolonged power outage after a Cat 5 storm, and with a small
gen running ceiling fans and floor fans, it was no where near
comfortable.

After I salvaged a small window shaker AC that the gen could run, I
managed to pull the house down to 83F and 68% RH, about a 71.4F
dewpoint and compared to what it was like before with an 81.5 dewpoint
it felt good but it was still a far cry from comfortable.



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Abby Normal wrote:

... it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air.


In your opinion. Then again, I proved it was, using numbers :-)

Nick

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Robert Gammon wrote:
wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

... it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air.


... Then again, I proved it was [a good idea], using numbers :-)


And Nathan tried it out in Melbourne and said it worked fine, with an
indoor swamp cooler that ran on a rising temp and a small exhaust fan
that ran on a rising RH. So far we have a) basic physics with numbers,
b) a successful experiment, and c) Abby's qualitative rants :-)

Well alt.home.repair appears to have missed the thread.


It's been there...

How about this as a Swamp Cooler idea????

High pressure water (160-200psi min - up to 2000psi) thru very small
orifice nozzles parallel to and pointing slightly away from the
condenser coil of a Refrigeration A/C.


Yogi Goswami tried that in Florida, with an energy savings of about 20%.
But it seems better to trickle rainwater over the coils.

You DO not want ANY of this spray to HIT the coils of the condenser even
if you use ultra high purity water (i.e. RO or Distilled) as mineral plating
will occur.


Distilled water contains minerals? :-)

Nick

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Rich256
 
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Robert Gammon wrote:
Well alt.home.repair appears to have missed the thread.

How about this as a Swamp Cooler idea????

High pressure water (160-200psi min - up to 2000psi) thru very small
orifice nozzles parallel to and pointing slightly away from the
condenser coil of a Refrigeration A/C. You DO not want ANY of this
spray to HIT the coils of the condenser even if you use ultra high
purity water (i.e. RO or Distilled) as mineral plating will occur. The
evaporation of this fine spray is rapid and will lower the temps of the
air entering the condenser, thereby cooling the working fluid faster and
to a lower temperature, shorter runtimes for the compressor, faster
cooldown of the dwelling, etc.

With a 160psi system I built, 4 nozzles consume about 2 gallons of water
per hour of operation. Higher pressures with smaller nozzles will
produce a much smaller droplet of water that will evaporate faster.
These higher pressures will use more water, but produce a MUCH more
impressive effect.

Rheam used to make a condenser with copper coils. They sprayed water
directly on the coils. It had a tank and pump similar to a swamp
cooler. To prevent mineral buildup, about 1/3 the way down on the
condenser coils there was a small trough that caught some of the water
and drained it off. My understanding is that with the water cooking the
efficiency improved at least 30% in a relatively dry climate.

A big factory building in Southern California had a large decorative
pool with fountains. It was the cooling pond for their air conditioner.
The water began to get too warm so they raised the fountains about a
foot or two to get more evaporation and cooling.

Another method for home in a dry climate use would be to set a window
swamp cooler on the ground in front of the condenser, cooling the freon
with cooled air.

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wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

... it is a bad idea to use evaporative cooling on indoor air.


In your opinion. Then again, I proved it was, using numbers :-)

Nick


No Nick

I pointed out the flaws in the numbers you 'dreamed up' with real
numbers.



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"Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong, I dream up
bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong"

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Rod Speed
 
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Abby Normal wrote:

"Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong,
I dream up bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong"


Odd that groups.google cant actually find anyone saying that except you.


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Abby Normal
 
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Rod Speed wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

"Ever time they are right I just say they are wrong,
I dream up bull**** numbers after a hit from my bong"


Odd that groups.google cant actually find anyone saying that except you.


Why yes troll king, I coined that prose.

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Where as all you can come up with is 'blotto' and 'wet paper bags'

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.p.jm@see_my_sig_for_address.com
 
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On 6 Apr 2006 17:44:18 -0700, "Abby Normal"
wrote:

Where as all you can come up with is 'blotto' and 'wet paper bags'


Things slow down your way, dude ? :-) Time for some
pine-climbing ? :-)



--
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Abby Normal
 
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No not slow actually quite hectic. This should be interesting though,
the tag time of nick and rocket rodney

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lol tag team

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Abby Normal
 
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James \"Cubby\" Culbertson wrote:


... In terms of Swamp vs. Refrigerated, well that's a debate. I live in
Albuquerque and the swamp cooler is OK but not great. The last few years
has seen higher than normal humidities so at night it struggles.



You might try a different configuration with better controls, eg turn
on
the swamp to cool recirculated house air when the indoor temp rises to
80 F
and turn on a small exhaust fan when the indoor RH rises to 65%.

This works in Melbourne Australia...






We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.



I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and
they were sold. We then pondered the idea of a central attrium with a
full floor to ceiling waterfall for cooling and humidiexhaust fans around
the perimeter of the house. Very low power, and everyone liked the idea
of a waterfall in the loungeroom (particularly with adjustable flow/noise
rate).




Nick

Lol it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%. Funny how if you followed a constant wet bulb
line from 28C/35% it pretty much hits 22C/65%. But you do not have much
faith in wet bulb lines because they don't fit your 'physics' lol.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all, the swamp cooler sure sounds like it was
working normal treating the outside air, except there was no obvious
relief opening. Lol so they used power to run an exhaust fan rather
than open a window. Way to go Nick you saved them some energy there.

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Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.


I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and
they were sold...


... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.


There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...


No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.

Nick

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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C


wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.


It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.


I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard and
they were sold...


... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.


There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...


No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.

Nick


I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air.



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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.

It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.

I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard
and they were sold...


... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.


There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...


No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.


I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air.


That wasn't explicitly stated above, but I know the ozzie in question,
and we've discussed his experiment in detail, and that's what he did.

Nick

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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C

Double check the facts because the comment about closing windows
against standard practise really makes it sound like they were
pressurizing.

wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.

It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.

I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard
and they were sold...

... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.

There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...

No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.


I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air.


That wasn't explicitly stated above, but I know the ozzie in question,
and we've discussed his experiment in detail, and that's what he did.

Nick


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Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.

It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.

I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard
and they were sold...

... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.

There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...

No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.


I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air.


An indirect clarification from the ozzie:

Ok, I've read the posts on this newsgroup, and I do have to wonder about
the sort of people who have time to pointlessly argue and flame each other
but not enough time to learn the basic physics about their topic of
interest. I'm certainly not interested in posting directly to the group.

Just to be sure, the swamp cooler was entirely inside the house, adding
water to indoor vs outdoor air, right?


That's correct...

We have a 'closed room' with an evaporative cooler in the room. A duct
taped box fan sits in the window and is run whenever the humidity rises
above 60%. Conceptually it is the same as forcing the air into the house,
except that it is demand driven, which seems to make it more efficient.
The room also seems to cool down faster, as we use the existing somewhat
cooler air for cooling first, and perhaps we heat exchange the air with
the walls and doors as fresh air leaks in.

Two potential improvements: 1) exhaust house air to an attic ("upducts")
or some other cavity bordering an exterior surface, eg a garage or sunspace
or storage space, and thereby reduce the usual conductive heatflow from
the warmer outdoor air into the living space, or 2) use a humidistat and
a reversible fan like Lasko's $55 2155A 16" window fan (90 watts at 2470 cfm
on high speed) and Grainger's 2A179 $88.15 programmable cycle timer and
its $4.37 5X852 octal socket to periodically reverse the fan direction when
it needs to run, making a "Shurcliff lung" that turns all the cracks and
crevices in the house envelope into bidirectional air-air heat exchangers.

We need to get rid of moisture vapor, but it's more efficient to do that
using cooled vs uncooled outdoor air. For optimal ventilation, run the fan
long enough to actually move some outdoor air in through the wall cavities
(vs moving a smaller amount of cavity air back and forth), but not so long
that the wall thermal mass heats all the way to the outdoor air temp on
the intake cycle.

This works in Melbourne Australia...


Few use swamp coolers there.


What complete crap (do you normally spout unsubstantiated rubbish?).
Evap coolers outsell heat pumps about 3 to 1 I'd be guessing. Every new
house seems to come with a roof mount evap cooler.

Not in Melbourne they dont.


I wonder whether people are thinking of Melbourne, FL.
(Perhaps these illiterates don't actually read before posting.)

Double check the facts because the comment about closing windows
against standard practise really makes it sound like they were
pressurizing.


Any time you move air around you are creating a pressure difference.
I'm not sure what you are claiming here.

I believe Abby was thinking the swamp cooler was trying to push outdoor air
into the living space vs recirculating indoor air, ie "pressurizing" the
living space. But the exhaust fan would DEpressurize the living space...

The reason the windows are closed is because extra air coming in through
an open window would simply add more heat, which we would have to remove.
Once we are cooling enough to overcome infiltration extra air has no
long term benefit. Commercial systems attempt to overcome this with
a very big blower. Blowers are inefficient and noisy.

Nick

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Abby Normal
 
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Default Swamp Cooler to Refrigeration A/C


wrote:
Abby Normal wrote:

We tried out your split-cycle swamp cooler idea a couple of nights ago
using a jerry-rigged humidistat using a SHT11 and a computer to control
the exhaust fan, and the brains of a commercial refrigerative split-cycle
system for the swamp cooler. We closed all the windows (against standard
practice with swamp coolers) and ran the swamp cooler to a fixed temp
(22C) and the humidistat to a fixed humidity (65% at your suggestion).
That night it was 28C and 35% outside.

It was very effective. It would shut off for maybe 10 minutes, then run
for 2. the fan didn't always come on, making me suspect that the vapour
was leaking out other ways.

I discussed it in the tearoom the next day (we have our own little frugal
living research group who meet in the tearoom in csse.monash.edu.au) and
people were surprised it worked, but I did the maths on the whiteboard
and they were sold...

... it sounds like the ozzies were just pressurizing the house then and
letting it 'efiltrate out' where ever it could and exhaust fans turned
on when humidity hit 65%.

There was no pressurization.

Does not sound like your 'humidify the indoor air scheme' and turn on
the exhaust fan at all...

No. It was exactly the scheme I suggested.

I just don't see the part where the ozzies mentioned recirculating air.


An indirect clarification from the ozzie:

Ok, I've read the posts on this newsgroup, and I do have to wonder about
the sort of people who have time to pointlessly argue and flame each other
but not enough time to learn the basic physics about their topic of
interest. I'm certainly not interested in posting directly to the group.

Just to be sure, the swamp cooler was entirely inside the house, adding
water to indoor vs outdoor air, right?


That's correct...

We have a 'closed room' with an evaporative cooler in the room. A duct
taped box fan sits in the window and is run whenever the humidity rises
above 60%. Conceptually it is the same as forcing the air into the house,
except that it is demand driven, which seems to make it more efficient.
The room also seems to cool down faster, as we use the existing somewhat
cooler air for cooling first, and perhaps we heat exchange the air with
the walls and doors as fresh air leaks in.

Two potential improvements: 1) exhaust house air to an attic ("upducts")
or some other cavity bordering an exterior surface, eg a garage or sunspace
or storage space, and thereby reduce the usual conductive heatflow from
the warmer outdoor air into the living space, or 2) use a humidistat and
a reversible fan like Lasko's $55 2155A 16" window fan (90 watts at 2470 cfm
on high speed) and Grainger's 2A179 $88.15 programmable cycle timer and
its $4.37 5X852 octal socket to periodically reverse the fan direction when
it needs to run, making a "Shurcliff lung" that turns all the cracks and
crevices in the house envelope into bidirectional air-air heat exchangers.

We need to get rid of moisture vapor, but it's more efficient to do that
using cooled vs uncooled outdoor air. For optimal ventilation, run the fan
long enough to actually move some outdoor air in through the wall cavities
(vs moving a smaller amount of cavity air back and forth), but not so long
that the wall thermal mass heats all the way to the outdoor air temp on
the intake cycle.

This works in Melbourne Australia...


Few use swamp coolers there.


What complete crap (do you normally spout unsubstantiated rubbish?).
Evap coolers outsell heat pumps about 3 to 1 I'd be guessing. Every new
house seems to come with a roof mount evap cooler.

Not in Melbourne they dont.


I wonder whether people are thinking of Melbourne, FL.
(Perhaps these illiterates don't actually read before posting.)

Double check the facts because the comment about closing windows
against standard practise really makes it sound like they were
pressurizing.


Any time you move air around you are creating a pressure difference.
I'm not sure what you are claiming here.

I believe Abby was thinking the swamp cooler was trying to push outdoor air
into the living space vs recirculating indoor air, ie "pressurizing" the
living space. But the exhaust fan would DEpressurize the living space...

The reason the windows are closed is because extra air coming in through
an open window would simply add more heat, which we would have to remove.
Once we are cooling enough to overcome infiltration extra air has no
long term benefit. Commercial systems attempt to overcome this with
a very big blower. Blowers are inefficient and noisy.

Nick


No not pointlessly flaming

Just saying that they ozzies made a big point about stating the windows
were closed. With any air conditioning except traditional swamp cooler
you would want the windows closed.

My interpretation of the post was that it is a traditional air swamp
cooler. They closed the windows and were getting natural exfiltration
therough cracks to relieve pressure until the ehaust fan turned on.

The combination of indoor temperature and the humidity being exahusted
had the same wet bulb temperature as the ambinet air as well. This
constant wet bulb always is neglected when you argue the physics of
evaporative cooling nick. the constant wet bulb makes it sound like it
was outdoor air being cooled as well.

They were only up against an 82 ambient at night, but as numbers have
shown before under a real load, humidifying recirculated air uses more
water and more airflow than dierectly treating outside air with
evaporative cooling

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We ran the numbers before and it shows that more airflow and water was
needed when you treat the indoor air.

When you get down to micrscopic cooling loads it may be possible for it
to work on recirculated air.

A recent article on evaporative cooling, used in industrial
applications not home comfort. Note there is an importance of the
ambinet wet bulb, a point nick does not want to acknowledge.

http://www.hpac.com/member/feature/2...on.htm#fiction

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