I'm reluctant to rip out 65-year-old wooden windows in my Chicago
rehab, but I need the energy efficiency. Anyone have any experience
with this relatively new product? I'm thinking I can save money and my
antique windows, and get the efficiency I'm looking for. Please tell me
whether this makes sense?

"dave" wrote in message

I'm reluctant to rip out 65-year-old wooden windows in my Chicago
rehab, but I need the energy efficiency. Anyone have any experience
with this relatively new product? I'm thinking I can save money and my
antique windows, and get the efficiency I'm looking for. Please tell me
whether this makes sense?

Why is argon gas a better inslulator than air? I'd like to know.
Because it sounds fancy and is more expensive?

The idea is to keep the gas from moving around in your window, which is
impossible, without putting some fibers in it.

I'v not seen an explantion of why some windows are filled with noble, or
just esoteric sounding gases.

Rich

On Thu, 9 Mar 2006 19:23:40 -0500, RichK wrote:

"dave" wrote in message

I'm reluctant to rip out 65-year-old wooden windows in my Chicago
rehab, but I need the energy efficiency. Anyone have any experience
with this relatively new product? I'm thinking I can save money and my
antique windows, and get the efficiency I'm looking for. Please tell me
whether this makes sense?

Why is argon gas a better inslulator than air? I'd like to know.
Because it sounds fancy and is more expensive?

The idea is to keep the gas from moving around in your window, which is
impossible, without putting some fibers in it.

I'v not seen an explantion of why some windows are filled with noble, or
just esoteric sounding gases.

Rich

Simple chemistry and thermal transfer coefficients. Argon has better
insulating properties than air does.

"Mike Dobony" wrote in message

I'v not seen an explantion of why some windows are filled with noble, or
just esoteric sounding gases.

Rich

Simple chemistry and thermal transfer coefficients. Argon has better
insulating properties than air does.

Do you happen to have the values handy, or are you just repeating sales
pitch?

Since gas "carries heat" from one surface to another, rather than conducts
like metal, the more important factor is keeping gas from moving. Air or
argon between two glass suraces has the same ability to move.

Seem little is gained by using fancy gas in place of air, but it sounds much
better in the advert.

Rich

Do you happen to have the values handy, or are you just repeating sales
pitch?


The thermal conductivity (k) of air is 0.024, and argon is 0.016. Window
manufacturers must provide performance results of certified tests on all
windows. If you go though a catalog from a manufacturer and compare the heat
loss for windows that are identical except for the argon fill and LowE, you
will see quite a difference between the two products. These are tests of the
entire window assembly, not just a calculation.

Dennis

RichK wrote:
"Mike Dobony" wrote in message


I'v not seen an explantion of why some windows are filled with noble, or
just esoteric sounding gases.

Rich

Simple chemistry and thermal transfer coefficients. Argon has better
insulating properties than air does.


Do you happen to have the values handy, or are you just repeating sales
pitch?

Since gas "carries heat" from one surface to another, rather than conducts
like metal, the more important factor is keeping gas from moving. Air or
argon between two glass suraces has the same ability to move.

Seem little is gained by using fancy gas in place of air, but it sounds much
better in the advert.

Rich



I agree. Its what makes gas 'gas'. That it moves around so freely. I
can assume Argon has lower specific heat than average air. Which means
it holds less heat. Which means it transfers less heat as it moves. Of
course there is no breeze between the panes of the glass except that
created by convection!? Which would be tied to the heat the gas can
hold. So it probably performs better. And is probably easier to
maintin than a vacuum.


--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

Why is argon gas a better inslulator than air? I'd like to know.
Because it sounds fancy and is more expensive?



Because Argon molecules are very light, and therefore do
not move heat well, but at the same time are big enough
that it's possible to trap them.

"dnoyeB"

I agree. Its what makes gas 'gas'. That it moves around so freely. I
can assume Argon has lower specific heat than average air. Which means
it holds less heat.

Heat is transferred by conduction and convection (in this case). Perhaps
argon is better on both counts, but it would be nice if the whole mechanism
was translated into R values, so you'd know what it costs for an additional
R unit.

In addition, I wonder how long the gas stays trapped between the two sheets
of glass. And how do you know when it escapes.

It all adds up to a bit of hocus-pocus, for a price.

Rich

Heat is transferred by conduction and convection (in this case). Perhaps
argon is better on both counts, but it would be nice if the whole mechanism
was translated into R values, so you'd know what it costs for an additional
R unit.

Rich


Rich, the "whole mechanism" *is* translated into R values. The U factor (and
other data) is marked on a sticker placed on every window sold today. U factor
is the inverse of R value. If you buy a plain window where U = .55, that is an
R value of 1/.55 = 1.8. A good LowE, argon filled window is about U = .32, so
the R value is 3.125. Those stated values are for the entire window assembly
tested as a unit, so it already includes convection effects of the fill gas, as
well as conduction of the gases, frames, air leakage, etc.

Occasionally you used to see a manufacturer trying to sneak by with an
advertised "CoG" U factor. That means Center of Glass, and the U factor will be
deceptively good, since it does not include the heat losses through the frames.
I haven't seen a CoG claim in awhile, however, and at any rate, that is not the
value that must be printed on the sticker.

Dennis

Thanks Dennis for a very thorough explanation. You can tell I have not
shopped for windows in a while.

Well, I did get some quotes, but the folks involved had no idea what they
were talking about :-)

Rich

"DT"

Heat is transferred by conduction and convection (in this case). Perhaps
argon is better on both counts, but it would be nice if the whole
mechanism
was translated into R values, so you'd know what it costs for an
additional
R unit.

Rich


Rich, the "whole mechanism" *is* translated into R values. The U factor
(and
other data) is marked on a sticker placed on every window sold today. U
factor
is the inverse of R value. If you buy a plain window where U = .55, that
is an
R value of 1/.55 = 1.8. A good LowE, argon filled window is about U = .32,
so
the R value is 3.125. Those stated values are for the entire window
assembly
tested as a unit, so it already includes convection effects of the fill
gas, as
well as conduction of the gases, frames, air leakage, etc.

Occasionally you used to see a manufacturer trying to sneak by with an
advertised "CoG" U factor. That means Center of Glass, and the U factor
will be
deceptively good, since it does not include the heat losses through the
frames.
I haven't seen a CoG claim in awhile, however, and at any rate, that is
not the
value that must be printed on the sticker.

Dennis

In article , says...

Thanks Dennis for a very thorough explanation. You can tell I have not
shopped for windows in a while.

Well, I did get some quotes, but the folks involved had no idea what they
were talking about :-)

Rich



No problem, Rich. You also seem concerned about cost (who isn't?). LowE argon
is no longer a pricey option. I am nearly done with an addition to my home, and
bought Andersen windows for the new construction as well as replacing some
older ones in the original part of the house. The LowE argon option adds less
than 10% to the cost of a window. My Andersens were in the $150 range with that
option.

Even lower cost windwows like Home Depot's American Craftsman line come
standard with LowE argon in my area, at extremely attractice prices.

Dennis

On 10-Mar-2006, "RichK" wrote:

In addition, I wonder how long the gas stays trapped between the two sheets
of glass. And how do you know when it escapes.

The gas should stay for the life of the window. If it leaks, there will be condensation
between the panes as humid air replaces the argon. You will likely only notice
the condensation as the weather gets cold.

Mike