I've never had a house with air-conditioning before -- this is the
first. I notice that the furnace makes a considerable amount of noise,
of a type I am unfamiliar with. Maybe someone can help me understand
what's going on.

Physical Description of system: forced-air natural gas furnace of the
type I am used to seeing here in Southern California. It has air intake
in the bottom, and hot air comes out the top which goes through
sheet-metal ducting to registers throughout the house. Pretty normal so
far. But above this furnace is another sheet metal box that that round
ducting of the sort that Terry Gilliam put behind the walls in "Brazil"
snaking off somewhere. Outside the house is a 2' x 2' x 3' metal cage
with a circular grille on top and a fearsome-looking fan inside. I
reckon this is some kind of heat exchanger.

Description of noise: With a "normal" furnace I expect to hear the gas
valve open, a soft "whoosh" as the burner ignites and after some 30
seconds or so, the blower kicks in. With /this/ system, the moment I
turn on the heat there is this jet engine whine that starts immediately
and eminates from the furnace closet. The burner lights and after some
30 seconds, the blower turns on. What the heck is the jet engine whine?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

It sound like you have a high efficency condensing furnace, the whine is
a motor blowing the system clear.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

It sound like you have a high efficency condensing furnace, the whine is
a motor blowing the system clear.

A motor, blowing the system clear?
Ransley. Where do you come up with these terms?
I believe you are talking about a Draft Inducer venter motor. It
doesnt blow. It provides a negative pressure inside the heat
exchanger.
Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba

"Bubba" wrote in message

A motor, blowing the system clear?
Ransley. Where do you come up with these terms?
I believe you are talking about a Draft Inducer venter motor. It
doesnt blow. It provides a negative pressure inside the heat
exchanger.
Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba

I don't know about the draft inducer on a home heater, but I do know a
little about some gas fired boilers. Why is a negative pressure needed?

I'm licensed to operate high pressure steam boilers up to 300 horsepower.
Any time the boiler is started, the blower comes on and there is a purge
cycle. This is to clear the boiler and stack of any unburned gasses that
may be in there. On modern equipment this is programmed into the
controller, but on older systems it was done manually. Maybe Ransly knows
about some home models that are similar.

On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba

Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that
game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of
the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have
here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had
such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the
small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:11:29 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et wrote:

On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba

Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that
game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of
the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have
here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had
such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the
small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.

Now that helps a lot.
Oh, the free advice...............its not free.
hehe. You thought I was goina tell you for free what people pay me
for. Yur killin me man.....yur just killin me.
Bubba

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 00:00:01, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes
MRJSE right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the
MRJSE kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating.

The louvered door is to allow for combustion air and is needed.

-= HvacTech2 =-


... "After they make styrofoam, what do they ship it in?" - s.w.

___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:


Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba


Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that
game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of
the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have
here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had
such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the
small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.


Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through
the burn chamber and up the chimney. Somebody did a very
poor seal around that fan in my furnace and it caused the
furnace to not operate correctly. (A safety feature is a
pressure switch that needs a negative pressure to operate
and maintain the burn). Just hope you never have to replace
the little, noisy SOB. They will cost you upwards of $300.
Glad I don't have a high efficiency water heater too.
Sounds like you have an exceptionally noise furnace. The
burner on mine makes way more noise than the inducer fan or
the distribution fan. It is probably normal for your
furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your
air system might be able to reduce noise distribution from
your furnace.

On 12/20/2004 10:27 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:



Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba



Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play
that game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling
of the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have
here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had
such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the
small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.


Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through the burn
chamber and up the chimney.

I've never had a furnace with an inducer fan. Was I just lucky? How does
an inducer fan affect the performance of a furnace? I mean -- why the
frick would someone want to mount such a noisy little bugger onto an
applicance which up until now I considered a fairly quiet device?

Sounds like you have an
exceptionally noise furnace. The burner on mine makes way more noise
than the inducer fan or the distribution fan. It is probably normal for
your furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your air
system might be able to reduce noise distribution from your furnace.

The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes
right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the kind
of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

"Hey, dad, remember our car?"
-- Calvin
------------------------------------

On 12/20/2004 8:27 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 18:11:29 -0800, "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et wrote:


On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:


On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba

Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play that
game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4 (rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling of
the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I have
here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust? Never had
such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of the
small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.


Now that helps a lot.
Oh, the free advice...............its not free.
hehe. You thought I was goina tell you for free what people pay me
for. Yur killin me man.....yur just killin me.

All right -- you outsmarted me. Go ahead, hold on to your darn advice.
See if I care.

sniffle

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

Bubba what the He## are you doing here if it is not for free helping
advise? Your advise is worth nothing -zip-nada,as it benefits no one on
this thread. You are worse than Dave or Stormin in this area, at least
they try.
Is it a motor blowing- blower motor- motor with blower-inducer-inducer
blower- blower- . In the context of OPs question they are equal in my
opinion.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 05:50:33 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Bubba what the He## are you doing here if it is not for free helping
advise? Your advise is worth nothing -zip-nada,as it benefits no one on
this thread. You are worse than Dave or Stormin in this area, at least
they try.
Is it a motor blowing- blower motor- motor with blower-inducer-inducer
blower- blower- . In the context of OPs question they are equal in my
opinion.

Whats wrong Ransley? Am I getting your panties in a bunch? Poor baby.
You want me to get a pacifier for you now?
Do you give out free advice because you cant hack it as a real service
tech? I choose to get paid for a living an not subject the
unsuspecting to harm and death. Ever read the caution and warning
labels on something as simple as a circuit board change out?
webtv..............that is just classic.
Bubba

On 12/21/2004 6:02 AM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 00:00:01, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes
MRJSE right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the
MRJSE kind of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating.

The louvered door is to allow for combustion air and is needed.

The whole door -- floor-to-ceiling -- is louvered. I'm used to seeing
hollow-core doors with louvered vents a couple square feet in area near
the bottom. Given how noisy the inducer blower is, a door that is 50%
air might not be the best course. The furnace closet is on concrete slab
and not adjacent to any outside walls; if it were not, I would consider
giving it a new burner air inlet and putting a solid door on the closet
to reduce the inductor-blower noise in the house.

So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other
natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

Bubba Ive never serviced even my HVAC.

I call in pros. Real ones unlike you.

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.

-= HvacTech2 =-


... "A friend of mine is in jail for counterfeiting pennies..."- s.w.

___ TagDude 0.92á+[DM]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ +++++++++++
spam protection measure, Please remove the 33 to send e-mail

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 10:42:57 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Bubba Ive never serviced even my HVAC.

I call in pros. Real ones unlike you.

and Id bet that you've never called a pro because you are a cheap
stupid *******. Hell you even have webtv. What a dork.
Bubba

On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive"
and inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner
gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows
the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine.
The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is
vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to
someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it
would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for
combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably
would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe
(about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer
blower sound to exit the furnace closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the
house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and
other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the
furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked
into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and
blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another
fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete
slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have
direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid
door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to
provide air for combustion?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

Bubba I bet ive paid my havc Pros more last month then you made all
year. On repairing my commercial properties.

Bubba the clueless wood stove inbred hack.

"Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
et wrote in message
...
On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive" and
inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner gets its
air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows the sound of the
inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine. The exhaust from the
inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is vented out of the closet
through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed,
probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it would seal
the closet and provide no place to pull air from for combustion. I could put
on a solid door with a small opening -- probably would not need to be any
larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but
that would still leave a path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace
closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the house,
then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and other openings.
This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the furnace
closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked into the closet,
through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the
inducer blower. As mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is
in a closet which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the
outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet,
how about using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing
from outside to provide air for combustion?

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

This is Turtle.

This can be done to bring in air from outdoors by another sheet metal duct or a
flex duct run from the closet ceiling out to the attic or outdoors to bring in
air to burn. Then put a solid door and seal it. If you can have room to run a
supply duct to it. If you have a 5 inch vent pipe going to the roof you will
need atleast a 7 but a 8 inch supply air duct would be better to feed the
burners. Now if you was not taking the air to burn from your house and get it
from outside it would save on the heating bills.

If you want to discuss it e-mail me and talk.

TURTLE

I'm with TURTLE on this one.
Put in a solid core door for reduction of noise. Don't do that until
you have replaced Source air inlet. I believe ducting it in from the
ceiling is a do-able idea. However it makes more stuff to filter and
such. Filtering will not be for your breathing air, but to keep the
ducts from clogging with bird nests and dust and other stuff.
Just as a comparison to your heater system, those manufactured
fireplaces use three walled Chimney ducting for the flue. Between the
outer two pipes, is where the chimney gets it's cooling air. that air
is then delivered back up between the inner two pipes. Draw yourself a
picture and see if it makes sense to you...............It does
work.The actual exhaust from the fire ( smoke and primary heat) goes
up though the inside pipe proper.

Reason for the explanation is to help understand also, that you could
use a triple wall pipe situation for your "chimney" for the heater,
and still put a solid core door in there. That way, you won't have to
make any major new ducting routes.

This is just a thought for pondering, as I think it would be better
than code would require also, and could be something that you may be
able to find as a kit already manufactured.............

I've never heard of the system you are describing, but it makes a good
picture in my head the way you described it, Mike.

Good luck.


This can be done to bring in air from outdoors by another sheet metal duct or a
flex duct run from the closet ceiling out to the attic or outdoors to bring in
air to burn. Then put a solid door and seal it. If you can have room to run a
supply duct to it. If you have a 5 inch vent pipe going to the roof you will
need atleast a 7 but a 8 inch supply air duct would be better to feed the
burners. Now if you was not taking the air to burn from your house and get it
from outside it would save on the heating bills.

If you want to discuss it e-mail me and talk.

TURTLE




Remove "YOURPANTIES" to reply

MUADIB®

http://www.angelfire.com/retro/sster...IN%20PAGE.html

one small step for man,.....
One giant leap for attorneys.

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/20/2004 10:27 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/20/2004 2:45 PM Bubba wrote:

On Mon, 20 Dec 2004 14:30:12 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:




Is it a Tempstar, Keeprite, Heil, ICP furnace?
How about a model and serial number?
Bubba




Oh, I get it: making me /work/ for my free advice! Well, I can play
that game as well as anyone.

The furnace is labeled "Goodman Manufacturing Co," model GMP100-4
(rev B)

Mounted on the frontside, above the burners, is what appears to be a
squirrel-cage blower about 8'' across in an enclosure. The input side
faces into the furnace. This blower exits into a 5'' diameter round
metal (galvanized steel?) vent pipe that vanishes up into the ceiling
of the furnace closet.

When I turn on the heat, the sequence of events is:

WHIRRRRR (the turbine sound, comes from the squirrel-cage blower)
pause for 30 seconds
Tik-tik-tik (piezo starter)
"Whump" (gas ignites)
pause another minute or so
Vwoooooom (main furnace blower pumping air into the heating ducts)

After a short bit of time, the small 5'' duct gets hot. What do I
have here -- a furnace with a forced-air burner chamber exhaust?
Never had such a thing before.

Oh -- I forgot. In the morning, shortly following the "WHIRRRR" of
the small blower, you can hear the dead awakening and cursing the noise.


Yep, it is the inducer fan, induces a flow of air through the burn
chamber and up the chimney.


I've never had a furnace with an inducer fan. Was I just lucky? How does
an inducer fan affect the performance of a furnace? I mean -- why the
frick would someone want to mount such a noisy little bugger onto an
applicance which up until now I considered a fairly quiet device?

Sounds like you have an

exceptionally noise furnace. The burner on mine makes way more noise
than the inducer fan or the distribution fan. It is probably normal
for your furnace. A few kinks (of the sound trapping kind)in your
air system might be able to reduce noise distribution from your furnace.


The inducer fan's noise is not audible through the ducting. It comes
right out of the closet. Which has a louvered door. Exactly NOT the kind
of door I'd choose to use for sound-isolating.


Oh well, hell why didn't you say so. Oh, I guess you did.
Why do you have a louvered door? Is it part of the air
supply for the furnace. If not put something over the
louvers. If it is, then put in a separate air supply or fix
the louvers so that sound can't travel straight through.

The damned inducer is what you pay for having a higher
efficiency furnace. Is it worth it? Probably not.

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote
to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on
any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between "passive"
and inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner
gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows
the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine.
The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is
vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to
someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it
would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for
combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening -- probably
would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the exhaust pipe
(about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a path for inducer
blower sound to exit the furnace closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the
house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and
other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the
furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked
into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and
blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another
fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a concrete
slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I don't have
direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about using a solid
door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing from outside to
provide air for combustion?


The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to
an attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from
the attic, install a solid door, and even install some sound
insulation. I suggest that you find out what manufacturer
states is needed for the air supply (hint--it will be a lot
more than the 5" exhaust). In fact, you will need two air
supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the
floor. Not a problem, since both can come from the attic.
Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the
furnace. Or, get a furnace man and pay a bundle.

"MUADIB®" wrote in message
...
I'm with TURTLE on this one.
Put in a solid core door for reduction of noise. Don't do that until
you have replaced Source air inlet. I believe ducting it in from the
ceiling is a do-able idea. However it makes more stuff to filter and
such. Filtering will not be for your breathing air, but to keep the
ducts from clogging with bird nests and dust and other stuff.
Just as a comparison to your heater system, those manufactured
fireplaces use three walled Chimney ducting for the flue. Between the
outer two pipes, is where the chimney gets it's cooling air. that air
is then delivered back up between the inner two pipes. Draw yourself a
picture and see if it makes sense to you...............It does
work.The actual exhaust from the fire ( smoke and primary heat) goes
up though the inside pipe proper.

Reason for the explanation is to help understand also, that you could
use a triple wall pipe situation for your "chimney" for the heater,
and still put a solid core door in there. That way, you won't have to
make any major new ducting routes.

This is just a thought for pondering, as I think it would be better
than code would require also, and could be something that you may be
able to find as a kit already manufactured.............

I've never heard of the system you are describing, but it makes a good
picture in my head the way you described it, Mike.

Good luck.


This is Turtle.

He is drawing air to burn from his house and to the code it could be ok but in
general it is just not nice to burn the same air you breath in a house.

TURTLE

On Tue, 21 Dec 2004 19:12:43 -0600, (m Ransley)
wrote:

Bubba I bet ive paid my havc Pros more last month then you made all
year. On repairing my commercial properties.

Bubba the clueless wood stove inbred hack.

You wouldnt know a pro if he hit you in the head with a rock and
****ed down your back. And around here, we dont call trailers
"commercial properties".
Hell, you're on webtv.
Bubba

On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote
to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on
any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between
"passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner
gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows
the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud whine.
The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product -- is
vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe chimney to
someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it
would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for
combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening --
probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the
exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a
path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the
house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and
other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the
furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked
into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and
blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another
fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a
concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I
don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about
using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing
from outside to provide air for combustion?


The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an attic?
If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic, install a
solid door, and even install some sound insulation.

Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house.
The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but
instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads
upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea
of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be
tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a hole
in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry room
above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house.

I suggest that you
find out what manufacturer states is needed for the air supply (hint--it
will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust).

I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion
products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative pressure
in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening there is
in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the
sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot, it
seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a
larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated
(thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the output
-- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have to suck
against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking.

In fact, you will need two air
supplies for the closet--one at the ceiling and one at the floor. Not a
problem, since both can come from the attic.

Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown throughout
the house through the ducts?

Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace.

Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's
the realm of smart guys that study these things.

--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR
------------------------------------
Today's Deep Thought:

Quote me as saying I was misquoted.
-- Groucho Marx
------------------------------------

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:
On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on
any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between
"passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The burner
gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which also allows
the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with its loud
whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the combustion product
-- is vented out of the closet through a 5'' diameter steel pipe
chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed, probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it
would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for
combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening --
probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the
exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a
path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the the
house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks and
other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to the
furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets sucked
into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat exchanger, and
blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As mentioned in another
fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet which sits on a
concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the outdoors. Since I
don't have direct access to the outdoors from the closet, how about
using a solid door and running something like dryer exhaust tubing
from outside to provide air for combustion?


The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an
attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic,
install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation.


Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house.
The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but
instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads
upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea
of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be
tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a hole
in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry room
above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house.

I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for the
air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust).


I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion
products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative pressure
in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening there is
in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the
sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot, it
seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a
larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated
(thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the output
-- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have to suck
against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking.

In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the
ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come from
the attic.


Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown throughout
the house through the ducts?

Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace.


Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's
the realm of smart guys that study these things.


Two, yes, and not it doesn't have anything to do with the
air blown throughout the house (that comes from the cold air
returns). The lower one is for the combustion air. The
upper is for ventilation (a safety feature). I believe each
is supposed to be 1 sq inch for each 1000 BTU but not less
than 100 sq inches. Too bad about the concrete slab,
sounds like a PITA. Never lived in a house built on a slab,
glad about that too.

On 12/22/2004 7:32 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/21/2004 10:33 PM George E. Cawthon wrote:

Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott wrote:

On 12/21/2004 6:35 PM HvacTech2 wrote:

Hi Mike, hope you are having a nice day

On 20-Dec-04 At About 09:05:02, Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott
wrote to All
Subject: Turbine in my furnace?

MRJSE From: "Mike Rocket J. Squirrel Elliott"
MRJSE j.michael.elliottAT@REMOVETHEOBVIOUSad elphiaDOT.net


MRJSE So what's the point of the inducer blower? Never had one on
any other
MRJSE natural gas forced-air furnace I've lived with.

To put it simply it increases the efficiency. it allows for more heat
exchamger so you can wring out more heat before it goes up the
chimney.


Okay -- it would be interesting to see the difference between
"passive" and inducer-blown heat exchangers.

I'd really like to reduce the noise output of the furnace. The
burner gets its air for combustion though the louved door, which
also allows the sound of the inducer blower to fill the house with
its loud whine. The exhaust from the inducer blower -- the
combustion product -- is vented out of the closet through a 5''
diameter steel pipe chimney to someplace I have not yet noticed,
probably up on the roof.

Clearly I cannot replace the louvered door with a solid door, as it
would seal the closet and provide no place to pull air from for
combustion. I could put on a solid door with a small opening --
probably would not need to be any larger in cross-section than the
exhaust pipe (about 16 square inches), but that would still leave a
path for inducer blower sound to exit the furnace closet.

Something else: since the inducer blower sends exhaust out of the
the house, then replacement air must enter the house through cracks
and other openings. This does not contribute to overall efficiency.

So it might make sense to provide an combustion intake opening to
the furnace closet that comes from the outdoors. Outside air gets
sucked into the closet, through the combustion chamber/heat
exchanger, and blown up the chimney by the inducer blower. As
mentioned in another fork on this thread, the furnace is in a closet
which sits on a concrete slab. It does not share a wall with the
outdoors. Since I don't have direct access to the outdoors from the
closet, how about using a solid door and running something like
dryer exhaust tubing from outside to provide air for combustion?


The closet has a ceiling right? Is the ceiling the floor to an
attic? If so you can get the air for the furnace from the attic,
install a solid door, and even install some sound insulation.



Alas, the furnace closet is on the ground floor of a two-story house.
The furnace chimney does not have a straight-shot up to the roof, but
instead takes a turn as it exits the ceiling of the closet and heads
upwards through some convoluted path I am unable to see. MUADIB's idea
of a coaxial three-wall chimney to both blow and suck through will be
tough to make work in this situation. Far easier would be to cut a
hole in the side of the closet and run an intake through the laundry
room above the washer/dryer to the rear of the house.

I suggest that you find out what manufacturer states is needed for
the air supply (hint--it will be a lot more than the 5" exhaust).



I've been thinking about that. The inducer blower forces combustion
products and heated air up the chimney. This creates negative
pressure in the closet, so air gets sucked in through whatever opening
there is in the closet for fresh air to come in. In my case, the
sound-transparent louvered door. Since the exhaust products are hot,
it seems to me that for every cubic foot of cold air that comes in, a
larger volume of hot stuff goes out, since gases expand when heated
(thus hot air balloons). So the intake could be smaller than the
output -- unless we want as little resistance for the inducer to have
to suck against. That blower may be much better at blowing than sucking.

In fact, you will need two air supplies for the closet--one at the
ceiling and one at the floor. Not a problem, since both can come
from the attic.



Two? Is this counting the house air which is heated and blown
throughout the house through the ducts?

Get the installation manual from the manufacturer of the furnace.



Manuals are good for telling what should be done. But not why. That's
the realm of smart guys that study these things.


Two, yes, and not it doesn't have anything to do with the air blown
throughout the house (that comes from the cold air returns). The lower
one is for the combustion air. The upper is for ventilation (a safety
feature).

Got it -- thanks.

I believe each is supposed to be 1 sq inch for each 1000 BTU
but not less than 100 sq inches. Too bad about the concrete slab,
sounds like a PITA. Never lived in a house built on a slab, glad about
that too.

Normal construction practice here in SoCal. Earthquakes cause houses to
fall into basements or something like that.


--
--
Mike "Rocket J Squirrel" Elliott
71 Type 2: the Wonderbus
84 Westphalia: "Mellow Yellow (The Electrical Banana)"
KG6RCR

[BRIAN W GUNNING]

replying to HvacTech2, BRIAN W GUNNING wrote:
Oh man, this whole string was worth the price of entry. Kudos to everyone who
threw down for no reason at all.

I have two identical furnaces and we had the inducer fan replaced two years
ago. Now /that/ furnace makes a great turbine like whine as it starts up, but
the other doesn't. So I would cautiously offer than not all inducer motors are
the same, and some may be more whiny than others. Our after-market one is WAY
louder.

Solution? Just imagine you're jumping to light speed every time and it's
really a nice sound effect to have in the house.

Par for the course folks.

--
for full context, visit https://www.homeownershub.com/mainte...ce-577414-.htm