Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to
a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?

I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box
.... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would
like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it
was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire
(14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape
before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push
in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm
located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).

The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of
reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the
thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a
different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an
outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any
problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw
that it's screwed on to, etc.?

Thanks for any info you share,
Harry

back before the advent of 'solid state' and 'Printed circuit boards' all
electronics, even high power devices, used copper wires that were 'tinned'
with solder before being attached to screw terminal strips.
it was the 'professional way of doing it.

as an electronics guy, I still 'tin' all wires I'm going to be soldering.

"tinning" means putting a coating of heated solder over the bare wire PRIOR
to making the final solder connection.


"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to
a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?

I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box
... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would
like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it
was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire
(14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape
before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push
in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm
located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).

The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of
reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the
thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a
different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an
outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any
problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw
that it's screwed on to, etc.?

Thanks for any info you share,
Harry

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to
a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?

I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box
... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would
like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it
was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire
(14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape
before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push
in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm
located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).

The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of
reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the
thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a
different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an
outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any
problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw
that it's screwed on to, etc.?

The only prohibition is against a connection that depends on the solder; you
could not solder the wire to the outlet because the screw fell off. Using
solder for convenience, as you have, is fine.
I usually crimp fittings on stranded wire.

Now, your box project is suspect; but you didn't ask about that.

In article . com,
"Harry Muscle" writes:
Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then connecting it to
a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?

I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of a big box
... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I still would
like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements as if it
was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded copper wire
(14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to shape
before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not the push
in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical codes (I'm
located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).

The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole bunch of
reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues being the
thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire expanding at a
different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on an
outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will cause any
problems with thermal expansion of it being different than the screw
that it's screwed on to, etc.?

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin.
I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of
stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well
with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace
ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style.

--
Andrew Gabriel

Andrew Gabriel ) said...

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact.

The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in
a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first.

I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are
a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire
was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to
a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it
and attach it to the terminal.


Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin.

That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling
of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s
when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to
be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them
at the time.

The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a
stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be
able to count how many strands it has.

--
Calvin Henry-Cotnam
"Never ascribe to malice what can equally be explained by incompetence."
- Napoleon
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
NOTE: if replying by email, remove "remove." and ".invalid"

"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
: In article
. com,
: "Harry Muscle" writes:
: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then
connecting it to
: a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?
:
: I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of
a big box
: ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I
still would
: like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements
as if it
: was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded
copper wire
: (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to
shape
: before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not
the push
: in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical
codes (I'm
: located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).
:
: The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole
bunch of
: reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues
being the
: thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire
expanding at a
: different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on
an
: outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will
cause any
: problems with thermal expansion of it being different than
the screw
: that it's screwed on to, etc.?
:
: You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
: a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
: pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
: contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
: are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very
thin.
: I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of
: stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well
: with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace
: ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style.
:
: --
: Andrew Gabriel

I know that, at least on Ottawa, and I imagine most places, you
cannot tin wires to be used where an electrical inspecation is
necessary. Same in the states. No, I cannot cite NEC, so no
use asking.
The reasons are exactly as Andrew pointed out. Solder
compresses and deforms to whatever force is applied to it and as
soon as air creeps in, there is corrosion, moisture, etc etc
etc., not to mention the affects of vibrations, etc..
How do I know? I got to see a connection that failed, then
started to heat (high currents) and the solder dripped out of the
connection onto the wireing below it. No, it's not a horror
story, but the melted solder wasn't too cute inside the box.
Whoever installed it didn't know the first thing about tinning,
besides it not being acceptable to do; he had the wiring well
"blobbed" with sodlerg.
I think I understand why you want to tin it, but properly
dressed stranded wire will work perfectly under appropriate screw
heads. If it's a permanent install, I'd modify it accordingly,
again along the lines of Andrew's suggestions. He's right on.

Pop

"Calvin Henry-Cotnam" wrote in message
om...
Andrew Gabriel ) said...

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact.

The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in
a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first.

I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are
a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire
was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to
a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it
and attach it to the terminal.


Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin.

That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling
of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s
when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to
be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them
at the time.

The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a
stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be
able to count how many strands it has.


Reminds me of ET-Maintenance school in the military. Spent literally a
*week* learning/practicing on just how to solder to bi-furcated and turret
terminals.

We too had to be able to count the strands after tinning. And how much
insulation to strip off so that no more than 2 mm of conductor was exposed
after attaching to terminal. And no melted insulation, and... and... and...
There was something like 14 checks for each soldered terminal connection.

Was bad enough on the bench, but then doing it laying on your back reaching
up inside a cabinet with just a drop-light to see by. Now *that* was fun
(NOT!!!).

daestrom

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Andrew Gabriel ) said...

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact.


The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in
a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first.

I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are
a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire
was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to
a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it
and attach it to the terminal.



Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin.


That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling
of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s
when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to
be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them
at the time.

The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a
stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be
able to count how many strands it has.

damn, I remember having to go through that course back in the early 80's
working with a defense contractor, was really hard. Their standards are
very tough, for a good reason of course.

daestrom wrote:
"Calvin Henry-Cotnam" wrote in message
om...

Andrew Gabriel ) said...

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact.

The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in
a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first.

I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are
a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire
was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to
a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it
and attach it to the terminal.



Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very thin.

That reminds me of a lecture I once attended. The speaker was telling
of an experience with a company he was working with back in the 1960s
when they got a project related to the space program. They all had to
be "schooled" in procedures such as soldering, which seemed beneath them
at the time.

The thing that stuck out in my mind was part of NASA's standards: when a
stranded wire was tinned or soldered to a terminal, you should still be
able to count how many strands it has.



Reminds me of ET-Maintenance school in the military. Spent literally a
*week* learning/practicing on just how to solder to bi-furcated and turret
terminals.

We too had to be able to count the strands after tinning. And how much
insulation to strip off so that no more than 2 mm of conductor was exposed
after attaching to terminal. And no melted insulation, and... and... and...
There was something like 14 checks for each soldered terminal connection.

Was bad enough on the bench, but then doing it laying on your back reaching
up inside a cabinet with just a drop-light to see by. Now *that* was fun
(NOT!!!).

daestrom


I remember those too, And all thsoe damn hand cramps trying to hold
everything steady while soldering upside down with arms reached up to
the work and hoped you were good enough not to burn yourself.

Pop wrote:
"Andrew Gabriel" wrote in message
.. .
: In article
. com,
: "Harry Muscle" writes:
: Does coating stranded copper wire with solder and then
connecting it to
: a standard outlet cause any issues or break any codes?
:
: I have a small project I put together (this is all inside of
a big box
: ... ie: not inside a wall or part of the house ... but I
still would
: like to make sure it's safe and meets any code requirements
as if it
: was inside a wall or part of the house) which uses stranded
copper wire
: (14AWG). I coated the ends with solder and then bend them to
shape
: before connecting them to standard outlets (screwed on, not
the push
: in). Will this cause any problems or break any electrical
codes (I'm
: located in Ontario, Canada in case that matters).
:
: The reason why I'm asking is because I've been doing a whole
bunch of
: reading about issues with aluminum wire, one of the issues
being the
: thermal expansion problems caused by the aluminum wire
expanding at a
: different rate than the screw connector it's connected to on
an
: outlet/switch/etc. So this made me wonder if the solder will
cause any
: problems with thermal expansion of it being different than
the screw
: that it's screwed on to, etc.?
:
: You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
: a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
: pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
: contact. Strands which are tinned during the cable manufacture
: are OK, as the solder layer thickness is controlled and very
thin.
: I'm not familiar with your local regulations, but in cases of
: stranded wire connecting to terminations which don't work well
: with stranded wire, the normal method is to crimp on a bootlace
: ferrule or an eyelet, depending on the terminal style.
:
: --
: Andrew Gabriel

I know that, at least on Ottawa, and I imagine most places, you
cannot tin wires to be used where an electrical inspecation is
necessary. Same in the states. No, I cannot cite NEC, so no
use asking.
The reasons are exactly as Andrew pointed out. Solder
compresses and deforms to whatever force is applied to it and as
soon as air creeps in, there is corrosion, moisture, etc etc
etc., not to mention the affects of vibrations, etc..
How do I know? I got to see a connection that failed, then
started to heat (high currents) and the solder dripped out of the
connection onto the wireing below it. No, it's not a horror
story, but the melted solder wasn't too cute inside the box.
Whoever installed it didn't know the first thing about tinning,
besides it not being acceptable to do; he had the wiring well
"blobbed" with sodlerg.
I think I understand why you want to tin it, but properly
dressed stranded wire will work perfectly under appropriate screw
heads. If it's a permanent install, I'd modify it accordingly,
again along the lines of Andrew's suggestions. He's right on.

Pop


I like a mechanical crimp to a terminal, but then followed up by soldering

My father used crimped connections on all his wiring on his house, then
soldered and taped (no wire nuts, was done in 1970) All still works
great. At time when having to replace an outlet or light switch,
everthing was still pretty solid, but do intend on doing a preety
thorough inspection soon including junction boxes in the attic.

The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on solder.
It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping crimping
etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of failed
inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it in a
solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder flows
out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward agreement
on it.

Long Ranger wrote:
The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on solder.
It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping crimping
etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of failed
inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it in a
solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder flows
out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward agreement
on it.

The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is
that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice
before wirenuts appeared.

----------------------
If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder
would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be
borne almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow?

bud--

Calvin Henry-Cotnam wrote:
Andrew Gabriel ) said...

You should not solder stranded wire prior to putting it into
a screw terminal. Solder creeps under pressure, so the contact
pressure will steadily reduce over time until it forms a bad
contact.


The only place I ever use stranded wire with screw terminals is in
a lamp, and I have on occasion tinned the end first.

I find the creep problem very bad and screws and stranded wire are
a bad mix. I have had a few instances where #14 or #12 stranded wire
was pulled through a conduit, so instead of trying to attach it to
a screw terminal, I would pigtail a short piece of solid wire to it
and attach it to the terminal.



The electric service panel in my house has long stranded ground wire
held in two places by bolts. I dont think its tinned though. It is
silver but I suppose it comes from the drop that way.




--
Thank you,



"Then said I, Wisdom [is] better than strength: nevertheless the poor
man's wisdom [is] despised, and his words are not heard." Ecclesiastes 9:16

"Bud--" wrote in message
...
Long Ranger wrote:
The code says you can't make a connection that depends entirely on
solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws, bolting, clamping
crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have heard of
failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire, then secured it
in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets hot, the solder
flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I lean toward
agreement on it.
The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My understanding is
that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the practice
before wirenuts appeared.

----------------------
If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think the solder
would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping would be borne
almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow?

Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut, or skipping
the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a proper joint.

I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked particularly stable,
so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would never have
considered not using the nut.

"Toller" wrote in message
...
:
: "Bud--" wrote in message
: ...
: Long Ranger wrote:
: The code says you can't make a connection that depends
entirely on
: solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws,
bolting, clamping
: crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have
heard of
: failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire,
then secured it
: in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets
hot, the solder
: flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I
lean toward
: agreement on it.
: The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My
understanding is
: that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the
practice
: before wirenuts appeared.
:
: ----------------------
: If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think
the solder
: would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping
would be borne
: almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow?
:
: Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut,
or skipping
: the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a
proper joint.
:
: I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked
particularly stable,
: so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would
never have
: considered not using the nut.
:
:

I've done that, too. In fact, I did our whole house in Chgo that
way. Lucked out and got a factory's worth of stranded wire on
spools for free just as I was prepping to rewire. And yes, it
passed inspection easily, first time, with only a comment about a
power strip I left plugged in downstairs.

Properly soldered, that would work. If you know how to do that,
great. But if anyone thinks a solder joint is "good" because it
looks nice and shiny and smooth, then go back to school because
that wire nut's going to loosen up.
Not many electricians know how to solder a joint that would
accept a wire nut reliably (or any other similar fastening
metod), and it would also require the metal spring type wire nut
to be reliable. Something has to penetrate the solder coat to
put pressure on the copper, not just on the solder. It's not as
easy to accomplish for the inexperienced as one may think. Then,
if they do get a good solder joint, they forget to use a heat
sink and the insulation melts or burns on them.

Pop

Pop wrote:
"Toller" wrote in message
...
:
: "Bud--" wrote in message
: ...
: Long Ranger wrote:
: The code says you can't make a connection that depends
entirely on
: solder. It has to be a compression connection. Screws,
bolting, clamping
: crimping etc. It's O.K. to solder after it's tight. I have
heard of
: failed inspections because someone tinned stranded wire,
then secured it
: in a solderless lug. The reasoning being that if it gets
hot, the solder
: flows out, and it is then loose.That may be debatable, but I
lean toward
: agreement on it.
: The NEC says "electrically and mechanically secure". My
understanding is
: that solid wires can stil be twisted then soldered as was the
practice
: before wirenuts appeared.
:
: ----------------------
: If tightly twisted wire was minimally tinned I would think
the solder
: would hold the strands in place and the stress of clamping
would be borne
: almost entirely by the copper. Do you still get cold flow?
:
: Are you talking about twisting, tinning, and using a wire nut,
or skipping
: the wire nut? If skipping the nut, then I don't see it as a
proper joint.
:
: I twisted a #8 with two #12s and didn't think it looked
particularly stable,
: so I soldered them before putting a wire nut on; but would
never have
: considered not using the nut.
:
:

I've done that, too. In fact, I did our whole house in Chgo that
way. Lucked out and got a factory's worth of stranded wire on
spools for free just as I was prepping to rewire. And yes, it
passed inspection easily, first time, with only a comment about a
power strip I left plugged in downstairs.

Properly soldered, that would work. If you know how to do that,
great. But if anyone thinks a solder joint is "good" because it
looks nice and shiny and smooth, then go back to school because
that wire nut's going to loosen up.
Not many electricians know how to solder a joint that would
accept a wire nut reliably (or any other similar fastening
metod), and it would also require the metal spring type wire nut
to be reliable. Something has to penetrate the solder coat to
put pressure on the copper, not just on the solder. It's not as
easy to accomplish for the inexperienced as one may think. Then,
if they do get a good solder joint, they forget to use a heat
sink and the insulation melts or burns on them.

Pop


I wouldn't solder a connection then use a wire nut. My experience is
that wire nuts are reliable when used within the manufacturer's range of
wire combinations. And they have not been tested on soldered connections.

Twisted solid wire that is mechanically secure and then soldered was the
standard method for making connections for many years before wire nuts.
I have seen only 2 failed joints, both because the solder did not bond
to one wire. As far as I know that is still NEC acceptable (but I
wouldn't advocate doing it).

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.

bud--

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...)

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
prohibition...)

It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is
holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You
are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector.

"Long Ranger" wrote in message
k.net...
:
: "Toller" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
: ...
: On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--

: Gave us:
:
: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire
in a pressure
: connection.
:
:
: Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.
:
: I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
: (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
: prohibition...)
:
: It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The
solder is
: holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it
gets loose. You
: are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the
connector.
:
:
:
:

In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
than a written rule?

Pop

"Pop" wrote in message
news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...

"Long Ranger" wrote in message
k.net...
:
: "Toller" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
: ...
: On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--

: Gave us:
:
: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire
in a pressure
: connection.
:
:
: Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.
:
: I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
: (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
: prohibition...)
:
: It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The
solder is
: holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it
gets loose. You
: are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the
connector.
:
:
:
:

In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
than a written rule?

Pop

Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended
to agree with it.

"Long Ranger" wrote in message
k.net...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
prohibition...)

It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is
holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose.
You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector.

Wouldn't a pressure connection conform to the flatter shape just as well,
once the solder melted? The ones I am familiar with use a spring action for
the pressure.

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
.. .
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...)


A gas tight crimped fitting doesn't need solder, or pass standards
with solder added either.

My standard is likely a mil standard, though I would think it is in
the NEC as well.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:38:26 GMT, "Long Ranger"
Gave us:

It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is
holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose. You
are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector.

It doesn't even have to get hot. Solder "creeps", period. It creeps
faster under pressure stress. That is the nature of soft metals.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us:

In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
than a written rule?

Pop

Absolutely not.

Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any
compression type connection.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
Gave us:


"Pop" wrote in message
news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...

"Long Ranger" wrote in message
k.net...
:
: "Toller" wrote in message
: ...
:
: "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
message
: ...
: On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--

: Gave us:
:
: The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire
in a pressure
: connection.
:
:
: Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.
:
: I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
: (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
: prohibition...)
:
: It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The
solder is
: holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it
gets loose. You
: are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the
connector.
:
:
:
:

In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
than a written rule?

Pop

Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but that I tended
to agree with it.


Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:30:08 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:


"Long Ranger" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Toller" wrote in message
...

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:

The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this
prohibition...)

It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is
holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose.
You are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector.

Wouldn't a pressure connection conform to the flatter shape just as well,
once the solder melted? The ones I am familiar with use a spring action for
the pressure.

What happens is that even after making a nice tight compression
connection on a stranded wire that has been "tinned", one will find
that even after a few hours, the pressure on the wire is reduced.

Solder is a soft alloy. It "creeps". There is no way around it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creep_%28deformation%29

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:38:26 GMT, "Long Ranger"
Gave us:

It goes back to depending on the solder for the connection. The solder is
holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot, it gets loose.
You
are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the connector.

It doesn't even have to get hot. Solder "creeps", period. It creeps
faster under pressure stress. That is the nature of soft metals.

Well there you have it then. When I said it was debatable I meant that there
were quite a few in my experience that think tinning is the be-all, and
end-all for copper connections under any circumstance. I have often argued
against it, and I wasn't even cognizant of the "creep" phenomena until now.
I had a boss for quite a few years that swore by it, and even tinned 250KCM
generator leads in a pot of melted solder. Those were sure fun.

OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded
wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets).
However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work
better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these:

http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg

And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I
just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be
done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually
made to work with normal pliers.

Thanks,
Harry

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
: Gave us:
:
:
: "Pop" wrote in message
: news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...
:
: "Long Ranger" wrote in
message
: k.net...
: :
: : "Toller" wrote in message
: : ...
: :
: : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
: message
: : ...
: : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
:
: : Gave us:
: :
: : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded
wire
: in a pressure
: : connection.
: :
: :
: : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be
soldered.
: :
: : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for
that?
: : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of
this
: : prohibition...)
: :
: : It goes back to depending on the solder for the
connection. The
: solder is
: : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot,
it
: gets loose. You
: : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the
: connector.
: :
: :
: :
: :
:
: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS
rather
: than a written rule?
:
: Pop
:
: Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but
that I tended
: to agree with it.
:
:
: Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice.

If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt wise,
you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can only be
decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a specific
case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes depend on
the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in turn
makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an
"acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the rules and
regulations.

Pop

"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
...
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop"

: Gave us:
:
: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
: than a written rule?
:
: Pop
:
: Absolutely not.
:
: Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice
for any
: compression type connection.

You obviously don't know what "interpretation" means w/r to rules
& regs. Interpretation by different authorized people are
exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same
question when it's answered from the rules & regs. If you really
know mil-specs, then you know that. So ... stop playing
semantics or stop being silly.

Pop

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
: OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the
stranded
: wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the
outlets).
: However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets
that work
: better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like
these:
:
: http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg
:
: And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets?
Can I
: just solder these on or is there any special crimping that
needs to be
: done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these
usually
: made to work with normal pliers.
:
: Thanks,
: Harry
:

IMO, all the same problems will still be present, even more-so,
since with that, there is no J or shepherd's hook to help hold
the wire in place.


If you can't cut/restrip the wires,
FWIW, I think I'd simply pick up a cheap solder-sucker (spring
type, not squeeze-bulb), and clean as much solder off as
possible. Then using a moistened cloth, heat/remove the rest of
the tin coat as much as possible and put it back under the
screws. Watch out for melting the insulation!
The idea is to remove as much of the contact area solder as
possible. Wrap it on the screws & thightten. Info is provided
"as is" and with no guarantee of being acceptable or functional.

Personally, I'd cut/restrip the wires - and use a crimp-on
sized/made for the wires for connection. At the moment, that
soundss easiest/best to me, at least.

Pop

On 3 Feb 2006 06:34:48 -0800, "Harry Muscle"
Gave us:

OK, so it looks like what I did is not good (soldering the stranded
wire before connecting it to the screw terminals on the outlets).
However, instead of changing all the wire or getting outlets that work
better with stranded wire, can I solder on connectors like these:

http://www.horseguardfence.com/imgcom/59g_and_wire.jpg

And then connect these to the screw terminals on the outlets? Can I
just solder these on or is there any special crimping that needs to be
done to these? Do I need a special crimping tool or are these usually
made to work with normal pliers.

Thanks,
Harry


Crimp terminals are designed to work on stranded wire without a
solder backfill or pre-tinned wire of any kind. Of course this does
not include wires manufactured with tinned strands. The bundle of wire
needs to be a bundle where all the strands are NOT melded together.
The whole key to a gas tight crimped fitting relies on this form of
malleability. This is why crimping onto a single solid strand is less
reliable from the industry's POV.

AFAIR that is a mil spec. There are several reasons.

One is that 8 out of ten solderers has very cursory skills at it.
It is hard enough getting them to solder a standard through hole lead
in place correctly. That is why mil spec has such numerous inspection
steps.

When tinning the end of a stranded wire, the entire "hot" portion of
the operation only lasts a couple seconds. If one tins for too long,
or at too hot a temperature, the solder leaches (see capillary
attraction) up the wire, stiffening the wire over a half an inch up
its length.

It requires long learned repetitive skills to tin properly, and the
first person in here that trivializes it is one of the eight out of
ten, I guarantee it.

Another reason is, of course, solder creep.

Adding solder to a crimped connector AFTER it has been placed on the
wire is the least mutative, most integrated method, but it is still
unacceptable, IIRC.

Roy L. Fuchs wrote:
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 22:56:25 GMT, "Toller" Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
. ..

On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
Gave us:


The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded wire in a pressure
connection.


Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be soldered.

I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for that?
(I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of this prohibition...)



A gas tight crimped fitting doesn't need solder, or pass standards
with solder added either.

My standard is likely a mil standard, though I would think it is in
the NEC as well.

Care to quote chapter and verse?
--
Tom Horne

Well we aren't no thin blue heroes and yet we aren't no blackguards to.
We're just working men and woman most remarkable like you.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 14:55:09 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
.. .
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:54:33 GMT, "Long Ranger"
: Gave us:
:
:
: "Pop" wrote in message
: news:TOyEf.30398$OY4.5664@trndny02...
:
: "Long Ranger" wrote in
message
: k.net...
: :
: : "Toller" wrote in message
: : ...
: :
: : "Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in
: message
: : ...
: : On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 11:55:00 -0600, Bud--
:
: : Gave us:
: :
: : The question I asked was for a single tinned stranded
wire
: in a pressure
: : connection.
: :
: :
: : Stranded wire in a pressure connection cannot be
soldered.
: :
: : I am not doubting you, but can you give a reference for
that?
: : (I always crimp fitting on stranded, but was unaware of
this
: : prohibition...)
: :
: : It goes back to depending on the solder for the
connection. The
: solder is
: : holding the shape of the bundled strands. If it gets hot,
it
: gets loose. You
: : are depending on the solder to hold the pressure of the
: connector.
: :
: :
: :
: :
:
: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS
rather
: than a written rule?
:
: Pop
:
: Yes, that is why I said earlier that it was debateable, but
that I tended
: to agree with it.
:
:
: Not true. Not "debatable". Not an accepted practice.

If you become more familiar with rules & regulations gvt wise,
you'll learn that there are many, many cases which can only be
decided by those who "interpret" the rules because a specific
case isn't specifically covered. Thus, the outcomes depend on
the inspector/s interpretation of those rules, which in turn
makes them "debatable". It is, and always has been an
"acceptable" method in ALL areas of law inclucing the rules and
regulations.

Pop

Tinning stranded wire bundles as a prep for insertion into a crimped
connector or fitting is not now, nor has it ever been acceptable.
There are SPECIFIC rules against it is both the military and NEC
standards and practices.

It is NOT about any form of "inspector's interpretation".

The electronics industry, above all, is not of that nature either.
The guidelines have been set for years and the differences between
military, industrial and commercial practice are not all that varied,
yet they are concise enough to make your statement false.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:00:37 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us:


"Roy L. Fuchs" wrote in message
.. .
: On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop"

: Gave us:
:
: In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather
: than a written rule?
:
: Pop
:
: Absolutely not.
:
: Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice
for any
: compression type connection.

You obviously don't know what "interpretation" means w/r to rules
& regs.

You obviously do not know the difference between rules and
regulations which people have the ability to "interpret" and rules and
regulations which are set in stone, and not open to "interpretation".

ANY inspector that thinks that it is HIS or HER duly "authorized"
right to bend, meld or "interpret" the rules is an idiot that doesn't
know how to ASK his superior for an answer when he or she gets stuck
on an issue. ALL circumstances in the industry are covered, and NONE
of them are mutable through individual interpretation and ANY
inspector that thinks they are is not now, nor never was a real
inspector.

Interpretation by different authorized" people are
exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same
question

Actually, that should read:

"stupidity by different promoted past their level of competency twits
are exactly why you will get seemingly opposing answers to the same
question..."

when it's answered from the rules & regs. If you really
know mil-specs, then you know that.

"If you really know mil specs" then you'd know that that is not true
in any way shape or form. NOTHING is left open to interpretation, by
inspectors or otherwise.

So ... stop playing
semantics or stop being silly.

Grow the **** up, grandpa.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 15:09:55 GMT, "Pop"
Gave us:

Info is provided
"as is" and with no guarantee of being acceptable or functional.


That is the first correct thing you have said, and that only because
it is about what YOU said.

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 05:38:28 +0000, Roy L. Fuchs wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:00:19 GMT, "Pop" Gave
us:

In other words, it's an interpretation of the standardS rather than a
written rule?

Pop

Absolutely not.

Solder creep is a well known phenomena. It is a bad practice for any
compression type connection.

Just curious, what is the opinion for the following: crimping the
connection, and THEN soldering it?

TTYL

Could someone provide a link to a picture of what I should be using ...
ie: what the crimp-on connector looks like?

Thanks,
Harry

My question has actually nothing to do with aluminum wiring ... it's
just the research I've been doing on aluminum wiring that made me
wonder about solder and copper wiring. Sorry if that confused anyone.

Thanks,
Harry