I like to make coffee one cup at a time. I heat a pyrex cup of
water nearly to a boil, throw in a tablespoon of coffee, stir, let
it steep, and pour it through a fine plastic filter into my
drinking cup.

My aunt prefers an electric percolator. She brought me her
48-ounce model to evaluate. Lately she has been using a smaller
one. When she tried the big one, she found it wasn't brewing good
coffee.

I used 24 ounces of water and three tablespoons of coffee. Perking
took 4-1/2 minutes. Then I put the grounds in half a cup of water,
boiled it, poured it through a filter, and drank it. That
convinced me that the perking had already removed most of the flavor.

The coffee in the pot was reasonably dark, but it wasn't as
flavorful as I'm used to. It's been so long since I've drunk
perked coffee that for all I know *all* perked coffee tastes like
this, but my aunt says it's inferior to the coffee from her other
percolator.

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

Sawney Beane wrote:
I like to make coffee one cup at a time. I heat a pyrex cup of
water nearly to a boil, throw in a tablespoon of coffee, stir, let
it steep, and pour it through a fine plastic filter into my
drinking cup.

My aunt prefers an electric percolator. She brought me her
48-ounce model to evaluate. Lately she has been using a smaller
one. When she tried the big one, she found it wasn't brewing good
coffee.

I used 24 ounces of water and three tablespoons of coffee. Perking
took 4-1/2 minutes. Then I put the grounds in half a cup of water,
boiled it, poured it through a filter, and drank it. That
convinced me that the perking had already removed most of the flavor.

The coffee in the pot was reasonably dark, but it wasn't as
flavorful as I'm used to. It's been so long since I've drunk
perked coffee that for all I know *all* perked coffee tastes like
this, but my aunt says it's inferior to the coffee from her other
percolator.

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

Do you really mean "percolator"? One of the old devices that boils water
in the bottom, shoots it up into the top where it drips through the
grounds and mixes with the water, boils again, etc, etc? If so then the
answer is likely that boiling coffee, under any circumstances, is not
conducive to good flavour. That is why these devices have pretty much
gone extinct. If you absolutely had to use a percolator (desert-island
conditions maybe) then you need to adjust the amount of grounds to get
the proper strength rather than boiling it longer which will just cause
it to become even more bitter and burned.

If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

--
John McGaw
[Knoxville, TN, USA]
http://johnmcgaw.com

John McGaw wrote:

If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.


I grind my own beans and use and esspresso maker for one cup at the
time.

my cuisinart grinder will peel the beans and not just cut them up...it
peels them down
this is supposed to be the best way to grind the beans

"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
John McGaw wrote:

If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it then
you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal filter
(rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my personal
favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality beans and
grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water is perfect,
using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the amount of grounds to
get the proper strength, and controlling the temperature at which the water
makes contact with the grounds (204-208F is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those tablespoons
were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five coffee cups. (A cup
is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee brewers are about six. If my
coffee were ground coarsely enough to use with fine mesh filters, I would need
more yet. Paper filters let me get more flavor grim the same beans by grinding
them finer.

Jerry

Jerry,

Don't forget the average mug is 10 to 12 Oz.

Dimitri

--
I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of
natural causes.

John McGaw wrote:

Sawney Beane wrote:

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

Do you really mean "percolator"? One of the old devices that boils water
in the bottom, shoots it up into the top where it drips through the
grounds and mixes with the water, boils again, etc, etc? If so then the
answer is likely that boiling coffee, under any circumstances, is not
conducive to good flavour. That is why these devices have pretty much
gone extinct.

That could be the answer, but I don't know why my aunt says her
other percolator makes better coffee.

As it has always been possible to brew coffee like tea, I wonder
why percolators were ever popular. Could it be that people liked
the taste they produced?

If you absolutely had to use a percolator (desert-island
conditions maybe) then you need to adjust the amount of grounds to get
the proper strength rather than boiling it longer which will just cause
it to become even more bitter and burned.

An electric percolator is thermostatically controlled. I don't see
how I could vary the perking time.

The coffee didn't taste burned or bitter, just weak. I have
neighbors who make drip coffee with about 1 teaspoon of grounds per
cup. That's weak for my taste. Once in a while they'll pour hot
coffee in my cup when I haven't asked. If I'm in a hurry I'll add
tap water to cool it. The coffee I perked today reminded me of
that weak mixture. Maybe boiling destroyed flavor.


If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).


Is it worthwhile to try to slow the cooling of the water after
contact? How do you measure the temperature? My infrared
thermometer reads boiling water at 186 F because there's so much
condensed steam above the surface.

What's wrong with paper filters?

When I visit relatives, they let me grind their top-quality beans
before each use in their French press. I have a French press but
prefer to brew it one cup at a time in a measuring cup. So far I
haven't noticed a significant difference between their fresh-ground
beans and my store-brand ground coffee.

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

snip

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

Using the same coffee grind for, steeped, drip and percolate is a mistake as is
using the same amount of coffee to water ratio.

http://www.ineedcoffee.com/05/grinding/

Dimitri


--
I used to eat a lot of natural foods until I learned that most people die of
natural causes.

Jerry Avins wrote:

John McGaw wrote:

If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for
it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a
gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is
my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying
top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your
water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds
(204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use

with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me
get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.

Jerry
--

I always toss in an extra heaping tablespoon 'for the pot', if making 4
cups of coffee i use 4 cups of water and 5 tbs. of coffee.

I suppose i have become what ever the opposite of a coffee snob is.
About a year ago i broke another french press and wanting a cup of
coffee before i went out and bought another press i decided to make
'camp fire' coffee, just boiling the coffee grounds in a cooking pot
with water, after it comes to a boil and simmers for a minute i take it
off the heat and let it sit for a couple of minutes and then pour.
Works fine for me. To the point i have felt no need to buy another
coffee pot, French press or otherwise. For guests i will make the
coffee the same way but serve it in a decorative coffee pot i have first
warmed up with boiling water.

The loose grounds sink to the bottom of the cooking pot and a careful
decanting of the coffee leaves it with no residual grounds in the actual
coffee to be drank.
---
JL

"chickenwing" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jerry Avins wrote:

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.


I grind my own beans and use and esspresso maker for one cup at the
time.

my cuisinart grinder will peel the beans and not just cut them up...it
peels them down
this is supposed to be the best way to grind the beans

Three grams per 6 oz. cup. Get an electronic scale for superior accuracy.
Never use a blender type grinder like the Cuisinart - it makes too much
coffee dust. Use a 'burr' type grinder, hand operated like the old fashioned
wooden ones. Experiment to determine the correct coarseness. Sift the grinds
to remove too-fine particles to avoid bitterness.THEN use a French press. As
an alternative to a French press, get a vacuum type maker. Drip machines
don't make the water hot enough and percolators continue rebrewing and
boiling the coffee as long as you let it go.

How is this for frugality:

I use a $ 9 coffemaker made in China, a scoop from a can of ground coffee
from Walmart, I only change the grounds once a week (add a scoop a day).

The best part is, when I have a group over for coffee, they all compliment
me on my coffee and ask where they can buy this wonderful brew :-)

And that's a fact
--
Walter
www.rationality.net
-
"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
I like to make coffee one cup at a time. I heat a pyrex cup of
water nearly to a boil, throw in a tablespoon of coffee, stir, let
it steep, and pour it through a fine plastic filter into my
drinking cup.

My aunt prefers an electric percolator. She brought me her
48-ounce model to evaluate. Lately she has been using a smaller
one. When she tried the big one, she found it wasn't brewing good
coffee.

I used 24 ounces of water and three tablespoons of coffee. Perking
took 4-1/2 minutes. Then I put the grounds in half a cup of water,
boiled it, poured it through a filter, and drank it. That
convinced me that the perking had already removed most of the flavor.

The coffee in the pot was reasonably dark, but it wasn't as
flavorful as I'm used to. It's been so long since I've drunk
perked coffee that for all I know *all* perked coffee tastes like
this, but my aunt says it's inferior to the coffee from her other
percolator.

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

PanHandler wrote:

"chickenwing" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jerry Avins wrote:

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.


I grind my own beans and use and esspresso maker for one cup at the
time.

my cuisinart grinder will peel the beans and not just cut them up...it
peels them down
this is supposed to be the best way to grind the beans

Three grams per 6 oz. cup. Get an electronic scale for superior accuracy.

How about a triple-beam balance? My level tablespoons weigh 6
grams, but I make 8-oz cups, so mine is 75% as strong as Jerry's
and 50% stronger than yours.

Never use a blender type grinder like the Cuisinart - it makes too much
coffee dust. Use a 'burr' type grinder, hand operated like the old fashioned
wooden ones. Experiment to determine the correct coarseness. Sift the grinds
to remove too-fine particles to avoid bitterness.

My relatives use a grinder with a "propeller" blade. I haven't
noticed any bitterness, but the blade could be generating dust that
clogs the screen in the French press or ends up in the cup.
Overall, I think the grounds may be too course. Anyway, a
hand-cranked model would be cordless, and that would be convenient.

THEN use a French press. As
an alternative to a French press, get a vacuum type maker. Drip machines
don't make the water hot enough and percolators continue rebrewing and
boiling the coffee as long as you let it go.

How do you know a drip machine doesn't get the water hot enough?
Are they all the same? I suppose brewing 10 cups would get the
grounds hotter than 5.

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
PanHandler wrote:

"chickenwing" wrote in message
ups.com...

Jerry Avins wrote:

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me
get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.


I grind my own beans and use and esspresso maker for one cup at the
time.

my cuisinart grinder will peel the beans and not just cut them up...it
peels them down
this is supposed to be the best way to grind the beans

Three grams per 6 oz. cup. Get an electronic scale for superior accuracy.

How about a triple-beam balance? My level tablespoons weigh 6
grams, but I make 8-oz cups, so mine is 75% as strong as Jerry's
and 50% stronger than yours.

Never use a blender type grinder like the Cuisinart - it makes too much
coffee dust. Use a 'burr' type grinder, hand operated like the old
fashioned
wooden ones. Experiment to determine the correct coarseness. Sift the
grinds
to remove too-fine particles to avoid bitterness.

My relatives use a grinder with a "propeller" blade. I haven't
noticed any bitterness, but the blade could be generating dust that
clogs the screen in the French press or ends up in the cup.
Overall, I think the grounds may be too course. Anyway, a
hand-cranked model would be cordless, and that would be convenient.

THEN use a French press. As
an alternative to a French press, get a vacuum type maker. Drip machines
don't make the water hot enough and percolators continue rebrewing and
boiling the coffee as long as you let it go.

How do you know a drip machine doesn't get the water hot enough?
Are they all the same? I suppose brewing 10 cups would get the
grounds hotter than 5.

If the water isn't hot enough to begin with it doesn't matter - the grounds
won't get as hot as they need to be.

I used a digital quick-read thermometer held in the output before the water
hit the grounds in six different drip machines. The hottest tested was my
Cuisinart at 194º, and the lowest was a year-old Mr. Coffee machine at 188º.
The heated water in the upper chamber of my vacuum maker as soon as it was
full was 207º.

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
I like to make coffee one cup at a time. I heat a pyrex cup of
water nearly to a boil, throw in a tablespoon of coffee, stir, let
it steep, and pour it through a fine plastic filter into my
drinking cup.

My aunt prefers an electric percolator. She brought me her
48-ounce model to evaluate. Lately she has been using a smaller
one. When she tried the big one, she found it wasn't brewing good
coffee.

I used 24 ounces of water and three tablespoons of coffee. Perking
took 4-1/2 minutes. Then I put the grounds in half a cup of water,
boiled it, poured it through a filter, and drank it. That
convinced me that the perking had already removed most of the flavor.

The coffee in the pot was reasonably dark, but it wasn't as
flavorful as I'm used to. It's been so long since I've drunk
perked coffee that for all I know *all* perked coffee tastes like
this, but my aunt says it's inferior to the coffee from her other
percolator.

What could be wrong? Can a defective percolator destroy much of
the flavor as it perks?

You cannot beat camp fire coffee. W W

I use a 19.95 Mr Coffee from Target to do coffee. It has one button (on, and
off!), no clock, but does a great job. It uses paper filters, and I like the
coffee better, even tho it is cooler, than my old Chemex. I use 5 heaping
measures for 4 1/2 mugs (but lines on pitcher read 7 cups). To enhance the
experience, I keep whole beans in the freezer, and pop them directly into
the electric coffee grinder. They seem to grind more evenly when ground
frozen. To make up for the tepid brew typical of an electric maker, I
preheat the mug by filling it from my instant hot water tap, swishing it
around for a few seconds, then filling the mug. An even better brew results
if you use filtered water to start with.
From the above posts, everyone has his own approach!

I have to agree 100% with the electronic scale method.
If you use a scoop, the amount of coffee in the scoop will depend on
the amount of compression of the grinds when you "scoop" it from the
container.
If you dig in to a full container of ground coffee the scoop will
compress the fragments of the beans making each scoop MUCH heavier
then if you scoop into the bottom of the container.
If you weight a tightly compressed scoop and compare it to a scoop of
lightly compressed coffee you will see the difference.
The difference might not be that noticeable in one scoop but multiple
that by lets say 12 and you have a very big difference in weight.

The weight method is the ONLY way to get the same amount of coffee in
the pot each and every time and this is the only way to make sure each
pot tastes the same.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:56:29 -0800, "Roger Taylor"
wrote:

I use a 19.95 Mr Coffee from Target to do coffee. It has one button (on, and
off!), no clock, but does a great job. It uses paper filters, and I like the
coffee better, even tho it is cooler, than my old Chemex. I use 5 heaping
measures for 4 1/2 mugs (but lines on pitcher read 7 cups). To enhance the
experience, I keep whole beans in the freezer, and pop them directly into
the electric coffee grinder. They seem to grind more evenly when ground
frozen. To make up for the tepid brew typical of an electric maker, I
preheat the mug by filling it from my instant hot water tap, swishing it
around for a few seconds, then filling the mug. An even better brew results
if you use filtered water to start with.
From the above posts, everyone has his own approach!

PanHandler wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
PanHandler wrote:

THEN use a French press. As
an alternative to a French press, get a vacuum type maker. Drip machines
don't make the water hot enough and percolators continue rebrewing and
boiling the coffee as long as you let it go.

How do you know a drip machine doesn't get the water hot enough?
Are they all the same? I suppose brewing 10 cups would get the
grounds hotter than 5.

If the water isn't hot enough to begin with it doesn't matter - the grounds
won't get as hot as they need to be.

I used a digital quick-read thermometer held in the output before the water
hit the grounds in six different drip machines. The hottest tested was my
Cuisinart at 194º, and the lowest was a year-old Mr. Coffee machine at 188º.
The heated water in the upper chamber of my vacuum maker as soon as it was
full was 207º.

Did you calibrate it? In preparation for such measurements, I put
a thermocouple into a pan of boiling water and got 217 F.

If I were going to measure the temperature of a drip coffee maker,
I'd put my probe into the grounds and close it up. With the
machine open, I imagine a small stream of very hot water will lose
heat very fast from evaporation and radiation.

With a French press, I imagine the water could cool below 200F as
it's poured into the brewing cup. Then the cup probably absorbs
significant heat from the water. I wonder how important it is. I
wonder if a longer brewing time can compensate for a lower
temperature.

What weights have you found for scoops from new and old containers?
I weighed one tablespoon from a half-empty can and got 6 grams.

I've been weighing flour for years. If you fill a cup from a
sifter, it won't have nearly as much flour as one filled by
scooping. Tapping the cup against the table will also make the
flour denser. I didn't think this would be much of a problem with
coffee grounds. They seem springier than flour.

"Dr. Edmund M. Hayes" wrote:

I have to agree 100% with the electronic scale method.
If you use a scoop, the amount of coffee in the scoop will depend on
the amount of compression of the grinds when you "scoop" it from the
container.
If you dig in to a full container of ground coffee the scoop will
compress the fragments of the beans making each scoop MUCH heavier
then if you scoop into the bottom of the container.
If you weight a tightly compressed scoop and compare it to a scoop of
lightly compressed coffee you will see the difference.
The difference might not be that noticeable in one scoop but multiple
that by lets say 12 and you have a very big difference in weight.

The weight method is the ONLY way to get the same amount of coffee in
the pot each and every time and this is the only way to make sure each
pot tastes the same.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 18:56:29 -0800, "Roger Taylor"
wrote:

I use a 19.95 Mr Coffee from Target to do coffee. It has one button (on, and
off!), no clock, but does a great job. It uses paper filters, and I like the
coffee better, even tho it is cooler, than my old Chemex. I use 5 heaping
measures for 4 1/2 mugs (but lines on pitcher read 7 cups). To enhance the
experience, I keep whole beans in the freezer, and pop them directly into
the electric coffee grinder. They seem to grind more evenly when ground
frozen. To make up for the tepid brew typical of an electric maker, I
preheat the mug by filling it from my instant hot water tap, swishing it
around for a few seconds, then filling the mug. An even better brew results
if you use filtered water to start with.
From the above posts, everyone has his own approach!

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

Did you calibrate it? In preparation for such measurements, I put
a thermocouple into a pan of boiling water and got 217 F.


If I were going to measure the temperature of a drip coffee maker,
I'd put my probe into the grounds and close it up. With the
machine open, I imagine a small stream of very hot water will lose
heat very fast from evaporation and radiation.

With a French press, I imagine the water could cool below 200F as
it's poured into the brewing cup. Then the cup probably absorbs
significant heat from the water. I wonder how important it is. I
wonder if a longer brewing time can compensate for a lower
temperature.

In a pot of rapidly boiling water at 212' above sea level the reading was
dead on at 212º. I placed the probe in the stream (tricky to do) for about a
minute. There weren't any grounds in the basket to measure, but as the water
temp can't be controlled anyhow, it seemed useless to check them had they
been there. In a French press the water going in is at 212º, and after the
press the brew was at 188º. The coffee was great, and that's the bottom
line!

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...
What weights have you found for scoops from new and old containers?
I weighed one tablespoon from a half-empty can and got 6 grams.

I've been weighing flour for years. If you fill a cup from a
sifter, it won't have nearly as much flour as one filled by
scooping. Tapping the cup against the table will also make the
flour denser. I didn't think this would be much of a problem with
coffee grounds. They seem springier than flour.

Measuring by weight rather than volume is best, and easily repeatable. I'm
sure the same applies for flour.

Sawney Beane wrote:
I like to make coffee one cup at a time.

Melitta makes a one cup thingy that sits on top of your coffee mug. You
put the filter and coffee in and pour boiling water in. Voila, one cup
of drip coffee. I haven't seen it in years in stores but I would think
you could find it online. It's probably about 6-8 dollars.

Bonnie

"Bonnie Jean" wrote in message
...
Sawney Beane wrote:
I like to make coffee one cup at a time.

Melitta makes a one cup thingy that sits on top of your coffee mug. You
put the filter and coffee in and pour boiling water in. Voila, one cup of
drip coffee. I haven't seen it in years in stores but I would think you
could find it online. It's probably about 6-8 dollars.

Thanks for the reminder Bonnie! I have two of them - one plastic and one
aluminum. I'll have to dig them out and give 'em a try. For a quick coffa
cuppee, they ain't so bad.

Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:36:18 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:


John McGaw wrote:


If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.

Jerry


If you aren't roasting your own beans as needed, you really aren't much of a
snob at all.

Coffee brewers? Oh BOY! They don't get the water hot enough to make coffee. You
are drinking hot brown water. If you are settled on drip, get yourself a chemex.
You'll have to boil the water separately, but the difference in the results is
enormous. It's really pretty hard to top a french press for the best all around
cup of coffee. It requires a bit more attention to get it right, though.

There are a few erroneous assumptions above. Here's what I do:

Boil water in the whistling kettle.
Grind roasted beans (stored in the freezer), using a rotary mill, not
whirling blades. The resulting grind is fine, but uniform.
Brew with a cone filter. When my last Tricolator breaks, I'll have to
switch to Mellita. There's an art to pouring, but that's another tale.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Commodore Joe Redcloud© wrote:

On Wed, 21 Dec 2005 10:50:50 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:


Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote:

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:36:18 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:



John McGaw wrote:



If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.

Jerry


If you aren't roasting your own beans as needed, you really aren't much of a
snob at all.

Coffee brewers? Oh BOY! They don't get the water hot enough to make coffee.

Dunno what you use for drip machines, but I've owned several of
different makes. They have all produced coffee that was *almost*
boiling. Make excellent coffee, too. The only better coffee I've ever
had was jug brewed by my dear departed father.


You
are drinking hot brown water. If you are settled on drip, get yourself a chemex.
You'll have to boil the water separately, but the difference in the results is
enormous. It's really pretty hard to top a french press for the best all around
cup of coffee. It requires a bit more attention to get it right, though.

There are a few erroneous assumptions above. Here's what I do:

Boil water in the whistling kettle.


Good so far..


Grind roasted beans (stored in the freezer),


This can be very bad for a host of reasons. Carefully packaged coffee
can be frozen for long term storage in a deep freezer, but if you
access the coffee often, or even open the freezer daily it is often
worse for the beans than storing it at room temperature.

Depends what they are in in the freezer... Ours live in airtight tubs.
Opening the freezer doesn't affect them at all.


using a rotary mill, not
whirling blades. The resulting grind is fine, but uniform.


That's better!


Brew with a cone filter. When my last Tricolator breaks, I'll have to
switch to Mellita. There's an art to pouring, but that's another tale.



That's fine, too. My assumption above was that when someone refers to
a "coffee brewer", and then talks about "cup" marks, I assume they are
talking about a typical automatic drip machine, not something like a
Chemex.



Commodore Joe Redcloud©


--
Kate XXXXXX R.C.T.Q Madame Chef des Trolls
Lady Catherine, Wardrobe Mistress of the Chocolate Buttons
http://www.katedicey.co.uk
Click on Kate's Pages and explore!

Sawney Beane wrote:

...

How about a triple-beam balance? My level tablespoons weigh 6
grams, but I make 8-oz cups, so mine is 75% as strong as Jerry's
and 50% stronger than yours.

It's more than just a matter of taste. It depends also on the choice of
beans.

I use an electronic scale that reads to 20ths of ounces of halves of
grams, up to 5 pounds. I use it frequently when cooking.

...

My relatives use a grinder with a "propeller" blade. I haven't
noticed any bitterness, but the blade could be generating dust that
clogs the screen in the French press or ends up in the cup.
Overall, I think the grounds may be too course. Anyway, a
hand-cranked model would be cordless, and that would be convenient.

It doesn't have to be hand cranked. There are mill-wheel models around
someone gave me a Braun, the model before the current CaféSelect KMM 30,
to fix, and when I repaired it. to keep. I had to hold the hand-cranked
one it replaced with one hand while I cranked it with the other. It was
enough of a chore to make me think of screwing it to the counter top.

THEN use a French press. As
an alternative to a French press, get a vacuum type maker. Drip machines
don't make the water hot enough and percolators continue rebrewing and
boiling the coffee as long as you let it go.

Coffee from a French press is much improved by being run through a paper
filter. Try it and see how much muck stays on the paper.

How do you know a drip machine doesn't get the water hot enough?
Are they all the same? I suppose brewing 10 cups would get the
grounds hotter than 5.

I keep the kettle simmering on the burner.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Dimitri wrote:

...

Don't forget the average mug is 10 to 12 Oz.

Indeed! I get about 6 mugs of coffee out of a full ten-cup carafe.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

"Commodore Joe Redcloud©" wrote in message
...

Airtight containers is not the only issue. Roasted Coffee is porous,
and condensation can be a major issue. Opening the freezer causes
condensation. And you can just imagine what happens when you open that
frozen container even briefly in a warm room! You are soaking the
beans, and then freezing and thawing them over and over again.

Unless you allow the sealed container to come to room temperature before
opening. Remove enough beans to provide a week's ready supply before you
need to reopen the sealed container.

Commodore Joe Redcloud© wrote:


Airtight containers is not the only issue. Roasted Coffee is porous,
and condensation can be a major issue. Opening the freezer causes
condensation. And you can just imagine what happens when you open that
frozen container even briefly in a warm room! You are soaking the
beans, and then freezing and thawing them over and over again.

There can be no condensation without access to moist air. Why is
airtightness unimportant?

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 23:34:32 GMT, Joseph LIttleshoes wrote:

'camp fire' coffee, just boiling the coffee grounds in a cooking pot
with water, after it comes to a boil and simmers for a minute i take it
off the heat and let it sit for a couple of minutes and then pour.

A few days ago I wanted a cup of coffee ... pulled out the Folger's decaf
that's been in the cupboard since last winter. Used double the amount since
it was so old. Put it in a bleached paper filter in a plastic cone over a
double-insulated plastic mug. Boiled the water and poured. It was awful.

More seriously, I read a couple of research articles a few years ago which
demonstrated that coffee not filtered though paper could raise blood
cholesterol levels. Not very much, maybe ten points (mg/dl???) for someone
who drank five cups a day. Not significant unless you drink a lot of coffee
AND have a cholesterol problem. The paper was the significant thing;
apparently it absorbs some oil that can raise cholesterol level.

Edward

Edward Reid wrote:

More seriously, I read a couple of research articles a few years ago which
demonstrated that coffee not filtered though paper could raise blood
cholesterol levels. ...

I read recently that decaf has that problem, but not regular.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

Jerry Avins wrote:

Sawney Beane wrote:

...

How about a triple-beam balance? My level tablespoons weigh 6
grams, but I make 8-oz cups, so mine is 75% as strong as Jerry's
and 50% stronger than yours.

It's more than just a matter of taste. It depends also on the choice of
beans.

I use an electronic scale that reads to 20ths of ounces of halves of
grams, up to 5 pounds. I use it frequently when cooking.

I filled a four-ounce measuring cup with coffee scooped from the
can with a tablespoon measurer. Then I was able to compress the
coffee about 15%. I dumped the cup and poured the grounds back into
the cup with a funnel. They came to the same level that they had
with the tablespoon measurer. It seems to me that volume measures
of coffee grounds are consistent unless they are intentionally compressed.

IIRC, flour will compress a lot more than coffee, and no two
methods of filling a cup yield the same density.

PanHandler wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

Did you calibrate it? In preparation for such measurements, I put
a thermocouple into a pan of boiling water and got 217 F.

If I were going to measure the temperature of a drip coffee maker,
I'd put my probe into the grounds and close it up. With the
machine open, I imagine a small stream of very hot water will lose
heat very fast from evaporation and radiation.

With a French press, I imagine the water could cool below 200F as
it's poured into the brewing cup. Then the cup probably absorbs
significant heat from the water. I wonder how important it is. I
wonder if a longer brewing time can compensate for a lower
temperature.

In a pot of rapidly boiling water at 212' above sea level the reading was
dead on at 212º. I placed the probe in the stream (tricky to do) for about a
minute. There weren't any grounds in the basket to measure, but as the water
temp can't be controlled anyhow, it seemed useless to check them had they
been there. In a French press the water going in is at 212º, and after the
press the brew was at 188º. The coffee was great, and that's the bottom
line!


I heated two cups to a boil, stirred in case there were cold spots,
and brought it to a boil again. I poured it into my French press,
which is thin glass, from about four inches higher. In the stream,
my probe read 206, which would be 201 F. Pouring took three or
four seconds. Immediately, the water in the press read 197, which
would be 192 F.

I would normally cover the press to conserve heat. I left it open
this time, with no grounds. In approximately two minutes it was 172 F.

One of these days I'd like to keep a probe in the neighbors' drip
brewer to see how hot the grounds get.

I figured the best way to keep brewing water near boiling was to
boil it in a pan on medium heat, turn off the electric burner, stir
in the grounds, and cover. I tried it this morning. I found the
flavor similar to that from my aunt's stainless percolator.

Later I tried my usual method with pyrex, a plastic filter, and a
ceramic cup. The coffee had the delicious nutty flavor I'm used
to. Somewhere I've read that if you've been cutting onions,
rubbing your hands on stainless steel will deodorize them because
the nickel is a catalyst. I think contact with stainless steel
makes coffee less tasty to me. That may include the screen in my
French press.

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

I heated two cups to a boil, stirred in case there were cold spots,
and brought it to a boil again. I poured it into my French press,
which is thin glass, from about four inches higher. In the stream,
my probe read 206, which would be 201 F. Pouring took three or
four seconds. Immediately, the water in the press read 197, which
would be 192 F.

Why the 5º discrepancy? Also, your elevation above sea level determines the
boiling point. It's 212º at sea level, and becomes lower with elevation.

I figured the best way to keep brewing water near boiling was to
boil it in a pan on medium heat, turn off the electric burner, stir
in the grounds, and cover. I tried it this morning. I found the
flavor similar to that from my aunt's stainless percolator.

Percolated coffee ain't the best by any means.

Later I tried my usual method with pyrex, a plastic filter, and a
ceramic cup. The coffee had the delicious nutty flavor I'm used
to. Somewhere I've read that if you've been cutting onions,
rubbing your hands on stainless steel will deodorize them because
the nickel is a catalyst. I think contact with stainless steel
makes coffee less tasty to me. That may include the screen in my
French press.

I've never looked into that concerning coffee, but I do know plastic louses
it up.

PanHandler wrote:

Why the 5º discrepancy? Also, your elevation above sea level determinesthe
boiling point. It's 212º at sea level, and becomes lower with elevation.

dang who would have thought
I have seen how the army core of engineers stake elevations
the stake literally is a giant nail with the elevation in feet stamped
on top

I still think for a quick tidy good cup of joe, use an esspresso maker.

you get one cup at the time
no coffee setting to become acidic
you can easily regulate each cups strength.
some days, I can't pack enough in the little metal cup
other days I might go 2/3 rds.

the best thing about this is that, it is very hot.
you have to let it set for a few minutes.

PanHandler wrote:

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

I heated two cups to a boil, stirred in case there were cold spots,
and brought it to a boil again. I poured it into my French press,
which is thin glass, from about four inches higher. In the stream,
my probe read 206, which would be 201 F. Pouring took three or
four seconds. Immediately, the water in the press read 197, which
would be 192 F.

Why the 5º discrepancy? Also, your elevation above sea level determines the
boiling point. It's 212º at sea level, and becomes lower with elevation.

You're right, it should be 6 degrees. In boiling water, my
thermocouple says 217 F. I'm at 600 feet, so, assuming normal
barometric pressure, my boiling water was probably 211.

I figured the best way to keep brewing water near boiling was to
boil it in a pan on medium heat, turn off the electric burner, stir
in the grounds, and cover. I tried it this morning. I found the
flavor similar to that from my aunt's stainless percolator.

Percolated coffee ain't the best by any means.

It was about as good as coffee made in a clean stainless pan.

My neighbor would agree with you about percolated coffee. If I
make coffee for him, I must follow strict instrutions. It must be
made with 3-1/3 tablespoons of coffee and 12 cups of water in a
10-cup drip brewer. The filter cup, decanter, and hot plate must
never be washed. I must not sample even an ounce before the
dripping is finished because it will be too stout.

His wife, who used to manage a restaurant, established the recipe.
She hates coffee.


Later I tried my usual method with pyrex, a plastic filter, and a
ceramic cup. The coffee had the delicious nutty flavor I'm used
to. Somewhere I've read that if you've been cutting onions,
rubbing your hands on stainless steel will deodorize them because
the nickel is a catalyst. I think contact with stainless steel
makes coffee less tasty to me. That may include the screen in my
French press.

I've never looked into that concerning coffee, but I do know plastic louses
it up.

I'm sure I'm using coffee-grade plastic.

"- Colonel -" wrote in message
news:2005122220035850073-nobody@verizonnet...
On 2005-12-22 16:11:35 -0500, "chickenwing"
said:

I still think for a quick tidy good cup of joe, use an esspresso maker.

Man, y'all are HARD CORE on coffee!

I use a Bunn drip machine like you see in offices and diners, but mine is
a home model. The water stays hot in the reservoir, and as you pour water
IN, coffee comes OUT.

I suppose I could spend an hour or two on the ritual, but for crying out
loud, ALL I WANT IS A CUP OF JOE!

If you DO enjoy a GOOD cuppa joe, spend a couple lazy rainy Saturday
mornings learning how to make it the way YOU like it. Once you establish a
routine it will become second nature and you'll enjoy good joe all of the
time.

In my 22 plus years in the business of selling gourmet coffee's, I have
always been taught to brew coffee at a tempurature of 200º F (+ or Minus
5º). If the tempurature falls below 195º, you will not extract all of the
desirable oils from the grounds and end up with a very underdeveloped cup of
coffee. If the temp is too high, it will start to extract the undesireable
& bitter oils from the beans. (hence the lousy flavor of perked coffee).

Doug
"PanHandler" wrote in message
.. .

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

I heated two cups to a boil, stirred in case there were cold spots,
and brought it to a boil again. I poured it into my French press,
which is thin glass, from about four inches higher. In the stream,
my probe read 206, which would be 201 F. Pouring took three or
four seconds. Immediately, the water in the press read 197, which
would be 192 F.

Why the 5º discrepancy? Also, your elevation above sea level determines
the boiling point. It's 212º at sea level, and becomes lower with
elevation.

I figured the best way to keep brewing water near boiling was to
boil it in a pan on medium heat, turn off the electric burner, stir
in the grounds, and cover. I tried it this morning. I found the
flavor similar to that from my aunt's stainless percolator.

Percolated coffee ain't the best by any means.

Later I tried my usual method with pyrex, a plastic filter, and a
ceramic cup. The coffee had the delicious nutty flavor I'm used
to. Somewhere I've read that if you've been cutting onions,
rubbing your hands on stainless steel will deodorize them because
the nickel is a catalyst. I think contact with stainless steel
makes coffee less tasty to me. That may include the screen in my
French press.

I've never looked into that concerning coffee, but I do know plastic
louses it up.

– Colonel – wrote:
On 2005-12-22 16:11:35 -0500, "chickenwing"
said:

I still think for a quick tidy good cup of joe, use an esspresso maker.


Man, y'all are HARD CORE on coffee!

I use a Bunn drip machine like you see in offices and diners, but mine
is a home model. The water stays hot in the reservoir, and as you pour
water IN, coffee comes OUT.

I suppose I could spend an hour or two on the ritual, but for crying out
loud, ALL I WANT IS A CUP OF JOE!

To each his own. I make a carafe full at a time, and let it cool
quickly. (It lasts for days in the fridge.) I microwave a cup at a time
as I want it. That works well if you make the best you can at brew time.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

In a microwave I heated a cup of water to a rolling boil. After I
carried the cup eight feet to the counter, my probe measured 217,
the same as in a pan of boiling water on a burner. It surprised me
that it hadn't cooled a couple of degrees, but it was still boiling.

That would have been 211 F. I put in a tablespoon of coffee,
stirred, and measured. 204 F. I let it steep four minutes with a
plastic cover to conserve heat. By then the temperature was 189 F.
Hmmmm... maybe a foil cover...

A day or two ago, when I steeped coffee in a pan on a warm burner,
I probably kept the temperature above 205. I didn't taste bitter
oils, but I might have called it underdeveloped. I haven't figured
it out unless that metal served as a catalyst.

When I was five or so, I liked to carry fresh coffee grounds in a
pouch so I could smell them. I've never drunk coffee that tasted
that good, but if I brew it in pyrex and use a plastic filter, the
coffee will leave a nice aftertaste for more than an hour.

BiffNightly wrote:

In my 22 plus years in the business of selling gourmet coffee's, I have
always been taught to brew coffee at a tempurature of 200º F (+ or Minus
5º). If the tempurature falls below 195º, you will not extract all of the
desirable oils from the grounds and end up with a very underdeveloped cup of
coffee. If the temp is too high, it will start to extract the undesireable
& bitter oils from the beans. (hence the lousy flavor of perked coffee).

Doug
"PanHandler" wrote in message
.. .

"Sawney Beane" wrote in message
...

I heated two cups to a boil, stirred in case there were cold spots,
and brought it to a boil again. I poured it into my French press,
which is thin glass, from about four inches higher. In the stream,
my probe read 206, which would be 201 F. Pouring took three or
four seconds. Immediately, the water in the press read 197, which
would be 192 F.

Why the 5º discrepancy? Also, your elevation above sea level determines
the boiling point. It's 212º at sea level, and becomes lower with
elevation.

I figured the best way to keep brewing water near boiling was to
boil it in a pan on medium heat, turn off the electric burner, stir
in the grounds, and cover. I tried it this morning. I found the
flavor similar to that from my aunt's stainless percolator.

Percolated coffee ain't the best by any means.

Later I tried my usual method with pyrex, a plastic filter, and a
ceramic cup. The coffee had the delicious nutty flavor I'm used
to. Somewhere I've read that if you've been cutting onions,
rubbing your hands on stainless steel will deodorize them because
the nickel is a catalyst. I think contact with stainless steel
makes coffee less tasty to me. That may include the screen in my
French press.

I've never looked into that concerning coffee, but I do know plastic
louses it up.

Blt of a low-grade coffee snob myself. Previous posts make good
points. I think good coffee can be made many ways- I've had some from
old percolators I thought was very good. I don't care for french press
for this reason: people tend to leave the coffee in there, where it
will pick up bitter flavor from grounds; unless you are drinking it
all right away you need to decant into carafe. Modern drip pots are ok
by me as long as you turn off once coffee is brewed- heat destroys
flavor fast. Some pots use carafe- good design, though cleaning some
can be a chore. As for espresso- I've had some pretty good from $15
stove top pots- helps if you put paper filters in grounds compartment.

How about that instant Sanka? Now that's coffee!!

"Jerry Avins" wrote in message
...
Commodore Joe Redcloud wrote:
On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 17:36:18 -0500, Jerry Avins wrote:


John McGaw wrote:


If you want good coffee and are willing to do a minimum of work for it
then you would be better off with a cone-type maker with a gold-metal
filter (rather than the disposable paper) or a French-press which is my
personal favorite. And for a step up you could start buying top-quality
beans and grinding them fresh before each use, make sure that your water
is perfect, using a fixed brewing time of 4 minutes and adjust the
amount of grounds to get the proper strength, and controlling the
temperature at which the water makes contact with the grounds (204-208F
is optimum).

And yes, before you ask, I _am_ something of a coffee snob...

That's as may be, but I think I out-snob you. First, I hope those
tablespoons were at least heaping. I use an ounce by weight for five
coffee cups. (A cup is eight ounces, but the "cup" marks on coffee
brewers are about six. If my coffee were ground coarsely enough to use
with fine mesh filters, I would need more yet. Paper filters let me get
more flavor grim the same beans by grinding them finer.

Jerry


If you aren't roasting your own beans as needed, you really aren't much
of a
snob at all. Coffee brewers? Oh BOY! They don't get the water hot enough
to make coffee. You
are drinking hot brown water. If you are settled on drip, get yourself a
chemex.
You'll have to boil the water separately, but the difference in the
results is
enormous. It's really pretty hard to top a french press for the best all
around
cup of coffee. It requires a bit more attention to get it right, though.

There are a few erroneous assumptions above. Here's what I do:

Boil water in the whistling kettle.
Grind roasted beans (stored in the freezer), using a rotary mill, not
whirling blades. The resulting grind is fine, but uniform.
Brew with a cone filter. When my last Tricolator breaks, I'll have to
switch to Mellita. There's an art to pouring, but that's another tale.

Jerry
--
Engineering is the art of making what you want from things you can get.
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯