I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water heater next year
so I'm exploring some options. One of the biggest things I have to
consider is up front cost and on going cost. Currently I have a forced
air gas furnace and gas water heater.

I'm curious to know if replacing the furance with a radiant floor
heating setup would be cheaper. I'm bascially looking for some
ballpark, rough estimate answers that would tell me which of the
following would be cheaper to install:

Option 1:

DIY radian heating where I run the pipes and do all other plumbing, but
have a pro install the gas water heater that would heat both the house
water and the floors. DIY installation of a blower unit for the air
conditioner. (since there's no more furnace blower)

Option 2:

Have a pro install a new forced air gas furnace and a gas water heater.
Connect the air conditioner to the new furnance blower.

I know prices vary depending on which modles, etc. I choose and provide
different efficiency levels, but let's assume a mid
quality/price/efficiency point for both systems. If the comments I
receive point to the DIY radian floor heating installation being way
cheaper I would do more research. If both options are pretty much on
par, then I would probably just have a new furnace installed since I
don't have to do as much work.

Btw, I'm located in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks for all the comments,
Harry

On 23 Nov 2005 09:32:29 -0800, "Harry Muscle"
wrote:

I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water heater next year

Don't post this **** in alt.hvac !!!!


--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Since efficiency is your goal why even consider Mid efficiency. Your
true cost is apples to apples the highest efficency of both. There will
be likely no payback junking a good system for another. Even if you do
the labor the materials are high. For your cheapest operating cost look
into a 94% -95% VSDC zoneable furnace and putting the extra cash into
upping R values

Pricing over the net is not possible. Just my over head is XXXX, your local
overhead is x.

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water heater next year
so I'm exploring some options. One of the biggest things I have to
consider is up front cost and on going cost. Currently I have a forced
air gas furnace and gas water heater.

I'm curious to know if replacing the furance with a radiant floor
heating setup would be cheaper. I'm bascially looking for some
ballpark, rough estimate answers that would tell me which of the
following would be cheaper to install:

Option 1:

DIY radian heating where I run the pipes and do all other plumbing, but
have a pro install the gas water heater that would heat both the house
water and the floors. DIY installation of a blower unit for the air
conditioner. (since there's no more furnace blower)

$40,000 USD

Option 2:

Have a pro install a new forced air gas furnace and a gas water heater.
Connect the air conditioner to the new furnance blower.


$40,000 USD.

I know prices vary depending on which modles, etc. I choose and provide
different efficiency levels, but let's assume a mid
quality/price/efficiency point for both systems. If the comments I
receive point to the DIY radian floor heating installation being way
cheaper I would do more research. If both options are pretty much on
par, then I would probably just have a new furnace installed since I
don't have to do as much work.

It's radiant, not radian. Wher are you going to get the tubing and
controls?

Oh, and ignore Paul.

Your post might indicate a miscpnception. A radiant heating system
requires a boiler, not a water heater. Call a heating supply and get a
price on a new boiler and a new furnace. Last time I checked furnaces
were half the cost.


--
hwm54112
------------------------------------------------------------------------
hwm54112's Profile: http://www.HomeOutfit.com/member.php?userid=127
View this thread: http://www.HomeOutfit.com/showthread.php?t=63222

"hwm54112" wrote in message
...

Your post might indicate a miscpnception. A radiant heating system
requires a boiler, not a water heater. Call a heating supply and get a
price on a new boiler and a new furnace. Last time I checked furnaces
were half the cost.



Depends on what he's thinking.

Some of the applinances we think of as boilers are actually water heaters.
Boilers have to be ASME rated, WH's don't in most cases.

Besides, IMO, water based heat is more comfortable.

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.

Phil Scott
HVAC contractor since 1610


"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water heater
next year
so I'm exploring some options. One of the biggest things I
have to
consider is up front cost and on going cost. Currently I
have a forced
air gas furnace and gas water heater.

I'm curious to know if replacing the furance with a radiant
floor
heating setup would be cheaper. I'm bascially looking for
some
ballpark, rough estimate answers that would tell me which of
the
following would be cheaper to install:

Option 1:

DIY radian heating where I run the pipes and do all other
plumbing, but
have a pro install the gas water heater that would heat both
the house
water and the floors. DIY installation of a blower unit for
the air
conditioner. (since there's no more furnace blower)

Option 2:

Have a pro install a new forced air gas furnace and a gas
water heater.
Connect the air conditioner to the new furnance blower.

I know prices vary depending on which modles, etc. I choose
and provide
different efficiency levels, but let's assume a mid
quality/price/efficiency point for both systems. If the
comments I
receive point to the DIY radian floor heating installation
being way
cheaper I would do more research. If both options are
pretty much on
par, then I would probably just have a new furnace installed
since I
don't have to do as much work.

Btw, I'm located in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks for all the comments,
Harry

hwm54112 wrote:

... A radiant heating system requires a boiler, not a water heater.

You might take a look at the Radiantec site.

Nick

Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water heater next year
so I'm exploring some options. One of the biggest things I have to
consider is up front cost and on going cost. Currently I have a forced
air gas furnace and gas water heater.

I'm curious to know if replacing the furance with a radiant floor
heating setup would be cheaper. I'm bascially looking for some
ballpark, rough estimate answers that would tell me which of the
following would be cheaper to install:

Option 1:

DIY radian heating where I run the pipes and do all other plumbing, but
have a pro install the gas water heater that would heat both the house
water and the floors. DIY installation of a blower unit for the air
conditioner. (since there's no more furnace blower)

Option 2:

Have a pro install a new forced air gas furnace and a gas water heater.
Connect the air conditioner to the new furnance blower.

I know prices vary depending on which modles, etc. I choose and provide
different efficiency levels, but let's assume a mid
quality/price/efficiency point for both systems. If the comments I
receive point to the DIY radian floor heating installation being way
cheaper I would do more research. If both options are pretty much on
par, then I would probably just have a new furnace installed since I
don't have to do as much work.

Btw, I'm located in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks for all the comments,
Harry

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your ****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???

--

SVL

Go blow paul - asshole
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills
went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your ****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely
provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???

--

SVL

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills
went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your ****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely
provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???

--

SVL

Try xe.com moron


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills
went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your ****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely
provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???

--

SVL

"Fred" wrote in message news:LHzhf.131066$S4.94570@edtnps84...

Try xe.com moron

Why should I ???

After all, it's not ME that wants any of your ****ing INFLATED
currency.......

--

SVL

"Fred" wrote in message news:nHzhf.131065$S4.72343@edtnps84...

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills
went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your
****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely
provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???

--

SVL

"Fred" wrote in message news:VGzhf.131063$S4.5350@edtnps84...
Go blow paul - asshole
"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in message
news

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills
went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


Sounds like you could be paying only ~ 100.00 a year to heat your
****ing
trailer using a heat pump if you was to zone said system.

Installation costs will vary, so suggest get at LEAST ten quotes, you
****wad....

Now all's left is to ponder any business model that would routinely
provides
ten FREE quotes to idiots--hoping to get a single paying job....

Curious, what's a Canadian "dollar" worth these days, anyways ???


....Nope...

YOU blow me first, and then blow him, and then just MAYBE, I'll think about
this **** seriously.

You ****ing top-posting idiot.

--

SVL

PrecisionMachinisT wrote:

YOU blow me first, and then blow him, and then just MAYBE, I'll think about
this **** seriously.

Maybe you and pjm should get a room at an HVAC gay grease-monkey conference.

Nick

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.


Why?

I do it quite often....

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that they are
CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario consider
ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating. My bills went
from $1500/year to $300/year.



r i g h t.

How about the DIY that gets in to trouble? Then they'll come crawling to a
pro to dig themselves out. What if the DIY kills themself or their family?

I work with DIY's quite a bit. The lay the tube and I do the hookups.
Guarantted and warranteed job.

Would the heat pump suggestion work in our lovely Canadian winters?

Thanks,
Harry

Curious ... what exactly is the difference between a boiler and water
heater?

Thanks,
Harry

"HeatMan" wrote in message
. ..

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat
pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.


Why?

I do it quite often....


Post the details then.


Im sure its workable. Im just not so sure its cheaper on
balance to own and operate than forced air in his case...
expecially *if he wants air conditioning in the mix/


Phil Scott

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Would the heat pump suggestion work in our lovely Canadian
winters?

Not below 25 def F or so, thats when you need to use the
electric resistance or gas furnace back up, thats one of the
reasons I recommended a *split system the indoor coil over
the top of a gas fired furnace.

In your area below zero is common, but on an annual basis
perhaps under 25F less than 20% of the yearly running hours.

Best design is to strategize for the predominate running
condition with provisions to handle the extremes... none the
less a local HVAC contractor should be consulted on the heat
pump as I had recommended... they will have all the figures...
how well your house is insulated is also an issue in that
regard... and zonability.


Phil Scott

Thanks,
Harry

"Fred" wrote in message
news:38zhf.130957$S4.118142@edtnps84...
Forget about the so-called 'pros' who have demonstrated that
they are CROOKS
here.

Any DIY with average skills can do the same job for
thousands less.

With rates as low as 5.8cents/kwh for electricity in Ontario
consider ZONED
baseboard heat. It is much cheaper than central Gas heating.
My bills went
from $1500/year to $300/year.


That sounds good. naturally zoned too.

Phil Scott


"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
I'm going to have to replace my furnace and hot water
heater next year
so I'm exploring some options. One of the biggest things I
have to
consider is up front cost and on going cost. Currently I
have a forced
air gas furnace and gas water heater.

I'm curious to know if replacing the furance with a radiant
floor
heating setup would be cheaper. I'm bascially looking for
some
ballpark, rough estimate answers that would tell me which
of the
following would be cheaper to install:

Option 1:

DIY radian heating where I run the pipes and do all other
plumbing, but
have a pro install the gas water heater that would heat
both the house
water and the floors. DIY installation of a blower unit
for the air
conditioner. (since there's no more furnace blower)

Option 2:

Have a pro install a new forced air gas furnace and a gas
water heater.
Connect the air conditioner to the new furnance blower.

I know prices vary depending on which modles, etc. I choose
and provide
different efficiency levels, but let's assume a mid
quality/price/efficiency point for both systems. If the
comments I
receive point to the DIY radian floor heating installation
being way
cheaper I would do more research. If both options are
pretty much on
par, then I would probably just have a new furnace
installed since I
don't have to do as much work.

Btw, I'm located in Ontario, Canada.

Thanks for all the comments,
Harry

"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in
message
news
such rude remarks say a lot about you.... not impressive. You
can do better than that. The man you replied to offered good
research and a good solution.

On the alt.hvac situation, I agree... I had never run into
such a bunch of abusive appliance repair people in my
life...when I tried to show them the high of the HVAC business
(industrial systems etc they faded or just got more abusive.)


Phil Scott
Mech Engr.

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 08:50:48 -0800, "Phil Scott"
wrote:


"PrecisionMachinisT" wrote in
message
news
such rude remarks say a lot about you.... not impressive. You
can do better than that. The man you replied to offered good
research and a good solution.

On the alt.hvac situation, I agree... I had never run into
such a bunch of abusive appliance repair people in my
life...when I tried to show them the high of the HVAC business
(industrial systems etc they faded or just got more abusive.)

Oh, fearless leader, show us the wisdom of your infinite
knowledge.

Right after you pull your head out of your ass.





Phil Scott
Mech Engr.



--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

Curious ... what exactly is the difference between a boiler and water
heater?


You mean technically, or how people talk?
COmmon usage is that a WH supplies things like showers and
faucets, and a boiler supplies the heating system.

In theory, it's not really a boiler unless it's
making steam. I don't think anyone restricts themselves
to that usage, though.

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
oups.com...
Curious ... what exactly is the difference between a boiler and water
heater?

Thanks,
Harry


Goedjn is about right.

The term boiler came up when they were used for more commercial purposes,
like shipping and other forms of transportation. Boiling water, right?

Well, somone realized that hot water, as well as steam could provide heat.
The pipes were smaller, and there was somewhat less problems. Even though,
the appliances used to heat the water were still called boilers.

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
. ..

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat
pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.


Why?

I do it quite often....


Post the details then.

What kind of details do you want?


Im sure its workable. Im just not so sure its cheaper on
balance to own and operate than forced air in his case...
expecially *if he wants air conditioning in the mix/

Radiant is cheaper to operate, but not anywhere near as cheap to install.
You can have radiant cooling, but the surface temps have to be above the dew
point.

I think the OP is in Canada. They won't have quite the cooling needs as
someone in Miami...

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

such rude remarks say a lot about you.... not impressive. You
can do better than that. The man you replied to offered good
research and a good solution.

On the alt.hvac situation, I agree... I had never run into
such a bunch of abusive appliance repair people in my
life...when I tried to show them the high of the HVAC business
(industrial systems etc they faded or just got more abusive.)


[

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_d...s_of_why_.html

Dilbert.Blog by Scott Adams

A few days ago I invited the readers of my blog to tell me why I'm stupid.
The results are in.

If you are new to the Internet, allow me to explain how to debate in this
medium.
When one person makes any kind of statement, all you need to do is apply one
of
these methods to make it sound stupid. Then go on the offensive.

1. Turn someone's generality into an absolute. For example, if someone
makes a
general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some
people
are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas
is
stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.)

2. Turn someone's factual statements into implied preferences. For
example, if
someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the
person
who said it of siding with pedophiles.

3. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if
someone says
that Ghandi didn't eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that
cows
deserve equal billing with Gandhi.

4. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can't eat
rocks, accuse
the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can't eat. Bonus
points for
arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough.

5. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that
he can run
a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that
no
one can hold his breath that long.

6. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says
apples grow
on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how
stupid that is.

7. Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that
ice is cold,
recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before
jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the
complexity of ice.

]

--

SVL

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 14:33:53 -0800, "PrecisionMachinisT"
wrote:


"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

such rude remarks say a lot about you.... not impressive. You
can do better than that. The man you replied to offered good
research and a good solution.

On the alt.hvac situation, I agree... I had never run into
such a bunch of abusive appliance repair people in my
life...when I tried to show them the high of the HVAC business
(industrial systems etc they faded or just got more abusive.)


[

http://dilbertblog.typepad.com/the_d...s_of_why_.html

Dilbert.Blog by Scott Adams

A few days ago I invited the readers of my blog to tell me why I'm stupid.
The results are in.

If you are new to the Internet, allow me to explain how to debate in this
medium.
When one person makes any kind of statement, all you need to do is apply one
of
these methods to make it sound stupid. Then go on the offensive.

1. Turn someone's generality into an absolute. For example, if someone
makes a
general statement that Americans celebrate Christmas, point out that some
people
are Jewish and so anyone who thinks that ALL Americans celebrate Christmas
is
stupid. (Bonus points for accusing the person of being anti-Semitic.)

2. Turn someone's factual statements into implied preferences. For
example, if
someone mentions that not all Catholic priests are pedophiles, accuse the
person
who said it of siding with pedophiles.

3. Turn factual statements into implied equivalents. For example, if
someone says
that Ghandi didn't eat cows, accuse the person of stupidly implying that
cows
deserve equal billing with Gandhi.

4. Omit key words. For example, if someone says that people can't eat
rocks, accuse
the person of being stupid for suggesting that people can't eat. Bonus
points for
arguing that some people CAN eat pebbles if they try hard enough.

5. Assume the dumbest interpretation. For example, if someone says that
he can run
a mile in 12 minutes, assume he means it happens underwater and argue that
no
one can hold his breath that long.

6. Hallucinate entirely different points. For example, if someone says
apples grow
on trees, accuse him of saying snakes have arms and then point out how
stupid that is.

7. Use the intellectual laziness card. For example, if someone says that
ice is cold,
recommend that he take graduate courses in chemistry and meteorology before
jumping to stupid conclusions that display a complete ignorance of the
complexity of ice.


Now give Weasel his book back, he'll be lost without it.



--

Click here every day to feed an animal that needs you today !!!

http://www.theanimalrescuesite.com/

Paul ( pjm @ pobox . com ) - remove spaces to email me
'Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the restraints.'
'With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine.'
HVAC/R program for Palm PDA's
Free demo now available online http://pmilligan.net/palm/

"HeatMan" wrote in message
.. .

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
. ..

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a
wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat
pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.


Why?

I do it quite often....


Post the details then.

What kind of details do you want?


Im sure its workable. Im just not so sure its cheaper on
balance to own and operate than forced air in his case...
expecially *if he wants air conditioning in the mix/

Radiant is cheaper to operate, but not anywhere near as
cheap to install.
You can have radiant cooling, but the surface temps have to
be above the dew
point.


I saw an odd installation in Clearwater Florida, a group of
offices, above the suspended ceiling was a direct expansion
net work of copper tubes (freon inside) running at about 35
degrees, and convecting cold air through grid panels in the
ceiling into the room, drip pans under the runs of pipe to
collect the condensate.. but have cost 3x what standard system
would.



I think the OP is in Canada. They won't have quite the
cooling needs as
someone in Miami...

Correct. In SF calif. virtually all commercial buildings need
HVAC, but most homes doint even some high end homes...so...
they suffer a few days a year is all.

same in ontario Im sure.


Phil Scott

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
.. .

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

"HeatMan" wrote in message
. ..

"Phil Scott" wrote in message
...

Replacing the existing will be cheaper first cost by a
wide
margin. a high effiency furnace, 90% or better will be
cheapest to run/

If you want AC in the bargain go for a split system heat
pump
instead of a gas furnace.

forget the radiant heat on a retrofit.


Why?

I do it quite often....


Post the details then.

What kind of details do you want?


Im sure its workable. Im just not so sure its cheaper on
balance to own and operate than forced air in his case...
expecially *if he wants air conditioning in the mix/

Radiant is cheaper to operate, but not anywhere near as
cheap to install.
You can have radiant cooling, but the surface temps have to
be above the dew
point.


I saw an odd installation in Clearwater Florida, a group of
offices, above the suspended ceiling was a direct expansion
net work of copper tubes (freon inside) running at about 35
degrees, and convecting cold air through grid panels in the
ceiling into the room, drip pans under the runs of pipe to
collect the condensate.. but have cost 3x what standard system
would.




I'll bet there was more to that one. I can imagine the mold/mildew problem.


I think the OP is in Canada. They won't have quite the
cooling needs as
someone in Miami...

Correct. In SF calif. virtually all commercial buildings need
HVAC, but most homes doint even some high end homes...so...
they suffer a few days a year is all.

San Francisco? The bride and I were there for the 4th of July a coupla
years ago. We saw the fireworks over the bay. We also nearly seemed to
freeze our bottoms off...

same in ontario Im sure.

Probably.

Ontario has some hot and humid summers, it's quite unbearable without
air conditioning.

Harry

So is a boiler just a water heater that creates hotter water?

Thanks,
Harry

A boiler is a term for heat for living spaces but it can run hotter,
some for steam heat. You can heat radiant with HW tank or tankless
water heater since temps are lower, Actualy Takagi make one of the most
efficient water heaters, 94%

"Harry Muscle" wrote in message
ups.com...
Ontario has some hot and humid summers, it's quite
unbearable without
air conditioning.

Harry

a heat pump will be your most economical move...

a packaged heat pump the cheapest most reliable option and you
can install that yourself.. but be sure the ducts are large
enough and sealed well and well insulated. Buy the high
efficiency model. Rheem is a good buy for the money.
Simplest also. Easy to repair.


Thats cheapest heating / cheapest install.

To cut operating costs further, grossly oversize the ducts so
that you can shut down the bedrooms during the day etc when
not in use and living room areas at night... (via motorized
dampers)

or install two smaller heat pumps, one for each separate area.

(you get redundancy that way too)... you can use portable
electric heaters for back up if and when the heat pump needs
repair or replacement.

If you want ultra cheap operation look into ground source heat
pumps (personally I think the install costs offsets the net
savings though and is more complex to maintain)


Dirt cheap are chinese window mounted heat pumps, but mounted
low in the wall instead. one in each room.

Through the wall split system heat pumps (wall mounted air
handlers) are nice...but expensive. and you have wall units
to look at.




Phil Scott
Mechanical Engineer, HVAC contractor