We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976. We are the 2nd
owners, it's our first house.
We've recently noticed, while doing some work in the basement, that
about 2/3rds of the floor joists in the basement are twisting on the
main beam. They are no longer perpendicular on the beam but are on an
angle. / , not | , when viewed on end. Some are worse than others.

There are a few slightly saggy spots in the floor upstairs and it's
starting to squeak.

A few more details:
1) The joists are 2 x 10s, 16" on center.
2) The span is 12 - 13 feet - because of a stepback in the front of the
house one end is 24' across, the other is 26'.
3) Metal X bracing is installed at mid-span for most joists, but is
missing where ductwork is and in a few other places.
4) The joists do not overlap each on the main beam, they are butted
against each other and a single plywood gusset of about 1/2" thick, 6"
wide, and 2 feet long --stapled-- to the joists across the joint.
5) No toenailing is apparent where the bottom of the joist meets the
beam.
6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?
2) Should the joists be sistered with more 2 x 10 across the main beam
or put in more plywood gusset before putting in blocking?
3) Can you block or sister with that small plywood gusset in place or
should it be removed to get full access to the sides of the joists?
4) Will jacking anything up be required? What gets jacked? It seems
like a bad idea to jack the joists that are at an angle as you may roll
them over more.

The more information you can give me, the better, as we decide what to
do (and who will do it - we do a lot ourselves but this may be
contractor territory).

We would like to punch both the builder and our building inspector
right about now. Both were idiots - the builder butchered a lot of
stuff and the inspector never caught it, and we were too green to know
what we were looking at.

Thanks very much,
Liz

wrote:

We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976. We are the 2nd
owners, it's our first house.
We've recently noticed, while doing some work in the basement, that
about 2/3rds of the floor joists in the basement are twisting on the
main beam. They are no longer perpendicular on the beam but are on an
angle. / , not | , when viewed on end. Some are worse than others.

There are a few slightly saggy spots in the floor upstairs and it's
starting to squeak.

A few more details:
1) The joists are 2 x 10s, 16" on center.
2) The span is 12 - 13 feet - because of a stepback in the front of the
house one end is 24' across, the other is 26'.
3) Metal X bracing is installed at mid-span for most joists, but is
missing where ductwork is and in a few other places.
4) The joists do not overlap each on the main beam, they are butted
against each other and a single plywood gusset of about 1/2" thick, 6"
wide, and 2 feet long --stapled-- to the joists across the joint.
5) No toenailing is apparent where the bottom of the joist meets the
beam.
6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

Possibly possible, but of no real consequence.

2) Should the joists be sistered with more 2 x 10 across the main beam
or put in more plywood gusset before putting in blocking?

Are they failing?

3) Can you block or sister with that small plywood gusset in place or
should it be removed to get full access to the sides of the joists?

I wouldn't mess w/ it at all unless there's some real problem (like a
serious sag and you don't mention anything except a little squeaky
flooring...)

4) Will jacking anything up be required? What gets jacked? It seems
like a bad idea to jack the joists that are at an angle as you may roll
them over more.

See above...

The more information you can give me, the better, as we decide what to
do (and who will do it - we do a lot ourselves but this may be
contractor territory).

Find the places where the floor has some give and squeaks and insert
shims between the top of the joists w/ construction adhesive and drive
them in firmly. Will solve the problems in all likelihood.

What's the flooring above? Depending on what it is you may have some
other recourses that can be taken in addition, but the above should take
care of the problem.

Unless there is a _major_ sag, doesn't sound like anything at all
serious to me.

Wood moves and it is not at all uncommon for joists to twist some.
After 20 years, they've done what they're going to do.

What do you mean by "is the joist failing"? What's the criteria for
this? To me it seems they are since they're sliding sideways on the
beam, but I don't know what failure criteria commonly is. They're not
cracked or rotted, just on an angle.

We are looking at selling in a year or two and don't want this to be a
showstopper for the sale. I'd think twice about buying a place where
the joists looked like this.

We're also getting some small drywall cracks near the molding and
ceiling over the worst-rolled joist, which is under the hall closet.

And if we stay there's nothing to stop them from sliding further, since
there's no blocking or toenailing to stop them.

The subfloor is 3/4" plywood and is in fairly good shape. It's all
carpet or vinyl flooring so we have no problems with cracking tile or
hardwood.

Liz

wrote in message
oups.com...
We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976. We are the 2nd
owners, it's our first house.
We've recently noticed, while doing some work in the basement, that
about 2/3rds of the floor joists in the basement are twisting on the
main beam. They are no longer perpendicular on the beam but are on an
angle. / , not | , when viewed on end. Some are worse than others.

There are a few slightly saggy spots in the floor upstairs and it's
starting to squeak.

A few more details:
1) The joists are 2 x 10s, 16" on center.
2) The span is 12 - 13 feet - because of a stepback in the front of the
house one end is 24' across, the other is 26'.
3) Metal X bracing is installed at mid-span for most joists, but is
missing where ductwork is and in a few other places.
4) The joists do not overlap each on the main beam, they are butted
against each other and a single plywood gusset of about 1/2" thick, 6"
wide, and 2 feet long --stapled-- to the joists across the joint.
5) No toenailing is apparent where the bottom of the joist meets the
beam.
6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

It can be done but don't expect perfection. You should have solid 2x10
blocking over the beam and between the joists anyway. In Mass this is
required by code now for fireblocking. You cut 2x10 blocks 14.5" long and
get them in place on an angle and then beat the hell out of them to drive
them in parallel with the beam and blocking both the front and the back
joists. You may need to cut them shorter on the badly twisted joists. If
they wont drive in they wont drive in. Cut em. You can use an 8 foot 2x8 or
2x 10 to use as a lever to twist the joist back close to straight, or pipe
clamps or come-alongs or anything. This is a two person job and not for the
dainty. By the time you are done you should be exhausted and have absolutely
no aggression left in you!

2) Should the joists be sistered with more 2 x 10 across the main beam
or put in more plywood gusset before putting in blocking?

No. Unless you see physical evidence of a break or a large crown or dip
(1/2"+). "Checking" (long cracks going with the grain) is normal and not
usually a structural issue. 2x10 can easily span 14' on a first floor.

3) Can you block or sister with that small plywood gusset in place or
should it be removed to get full access to the sides of the joists?

No need to remove it. Drive some more nails in it.

4) Will jacking anything up be required? What gets jacked? It seems
like a bad idea to jack the joists that are at an angle as you may roll
them over more.

Can't comment on that sight unseen. You need to have a pro look at the whole
structure.


The more information you can give me, the better, as we decide what to
do (and who will do it - we do a lot ourselves but this may be
contractor territory).

The most likely cause of the squeaking floor is the metal bridging. It is
notorious for this. I have done several replacement jobs in my area to solve
this problem. Cut out all of the metal bridging and replace it with wood
strapping for bridging. You can leave part of the metal that goes under the
plywood in place and just bang it down flush with the joist.
After that run a bead of construction adhesive down the joint between the
joist and the plywood on each side wherever you can reach. Press it into the
joint with your finger. Stay off the floor for at least 8 hours.


We would like to punch both the builder and our building inspector
right about now. Both were idiots - the builder butchered a lot of
stuff and the inspector never caught it, and we were too green to know
what we were looking at.

Everything you explained was "state of the art" for the 1970's. They don't
build em like they used to, and that's a good thing.


Thanks very much,
Liz

Thanks. More questions (sorry I'm such a pain):

- Would it be helpful to move everything out of the room above it
before we start banging away, to reduce the weight on the joists from
above?

- Is any jacking needed to get the weight off the joist before banging
on it or will the banging be enough?

- Does the blocking have to be right over the central beam or can it be
off to the side a little? I ask this because of the stupid plywood
gusset. Because it doesn't cover the full width of the joist I don't
think I could get smooth fit - there will always be a gap between the
blocking and the joist at the un-gusset areas above and below the
plywood.

Here it is viewed from the side:

______________________________________
joist 1 | joist 2
___________________
| |
| gusset |
----------------------------------
|
---------------------------------------------------------

- And since there is no joist overlap at the beam should I be running a
line of alternating blocking down either side of the beam, since the
joists aren't really joined well and when I block one joist it won't
100% stabilize the other side?

Aggression and exhaustion won't be a problem, I'll just pretend it's
the building inspector :lol: .
..
Everything you explained was "state of the art" for the 1970's.

That's a terrifying thought.

They don't build em like they used to, and that's a good thing.

You got that right.

Liz

6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

Yes, you can straighten the joists, but doing so may wall produce
nailpops and cracking wallboard above, because the plywood
subfloor is going to heave a little bit.

You build a big-ass wrench out of dimension lumber,
bolts, and plywood, sort of like a peavy with a fixed
tooth, and pry the joist vertical, and have someone
stuff blocking in there while you hold it.

Where there's something in the way so you can't
put in blocking, bridge across the bottom of the joists
with a 2x4 until you cross two joists that ARE blocked,
on each side.

(see www.goedjn.com/sketch/wrench.gif for the sketch
of the prying tool).

After doing the whole floor, inspect the topside
for things that have popped up.

wrote in message
ups.com...
Thanks. More questions (sorry I'm such a pain):

- Would it be helpful to move everything out of the room above it
before we start banging away, to reduce the weight on the joists from
above?

Helpful? Maybe. Necessary? No. Unless you've got a 400 pound TV or
something....


- Is any jacking needed to get the weight off the joist before banging
on it or will the banging be enough?

No. But if you've got the time and the gumption then go for it. It will be
less Neanderthal than muscling the blocks in. You need two jacks and a
crossbeam about 36" long made up of 3 2x6 nailed together. Place the
crossbeam across 3 joists with the target joist in the center about 24" away
from the beam and using a small test block of 2x10 jack s-l-o-w-l-y until
the test block slides in nice and easy. Do both sides and then install the
fireblock.


- Does the blocking have to be right over the central beam or can it be
off to the side a little? I ask this because of the stupid plywood
gusset. Because it doesn't cover the full width of the joist I don't
think I could get smooth fit - there will always be a gap between the
blocking and the joist at the un-gusset areas above and below the
plywood.

Here it is viewed from the side:

______________________________________
joist 1 | joist 2
___________________
| |
| gusset |
----------------------------------
|
---------------------------------------------------------


Three options:
1- remove the gussets and throw them away. As long as the joists bear at
least 2" on the beam and are toe nailed into the beam they are unnecessary
anyway.
2- remove the gussets and install new gussets that are 9.25" tall.
3- cut strips of plywood to infill the top and bottom of the gussets to fill
in all 9.25".

- And since there is no joist overlap at the beam should I be running a
line of alternating blocking down either side of the beam, since the
joists aren't really joined well and when I block one joist it won't
100% stabilize the other side?

The fireblock is 1.5" thick. it should cover 3/4" of both joists on both
sides. One in every joist bay. Or you could double up the fireblocks, 2 in
each joist bay. It's common sense. You want to block both joists, both
sides, any way you see fit.


Aggression and exhaustion won't be a problem, I'll just pretend it's
the building inspector :lol: .

He wouldn't care. Believe me!

.
Everything you explained was "state of the art" for the 1970's.

That's a terrifying thought.

You should see what they could get away with in the 1950's!!


They don't build em like they used to, and that's a good thing.

You got that right.

Liz

BP wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976. We are the 2nd
owners, it's our first house.
We've recently noticed, while doing some work in the basement, that
about 2/3rds of the floor joists in the basement are twisting on the
main beam. They are no longer perpendicular on the beam but are on an
angle. / , not | , when viewed on end. Some are worse than others.

There are a few slightly saggy spots in the floor upstairs and it's
starting to squeak.

A few more details:
1) The joists are 2 x 10s, 16" on center.
2) The span is 12 - 13 feet - because of a stepback in the front of the
house one end is 24' across, the other is 26'.
3) Metal X bracing is installed at mid-span for most joists, but is
missing where ductwork is and in a few other places.
4) The joists do not overlap each on the main beam, they are butted
against each other and a single plywood gusset of about 1/2" thick, 6"
wide, and 2 feet long --stapled-- to the joists across the joint.
5) No toenailing is apparent where the bottom of the joist meets the
beam.
6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

It can be done but don't expect perfection. You should have solid 2x10
blocking over the beam and between the joists anyway. In Mass this is
required by code now for fireblocking. You cut 2x10 blocks 14.5" long and
get them in place on an angle and then beat the hell out of them to drive
them in parallel with the beam and blocking both the front and the back
joists. You may need to cut them shorter on the badly twisted joists. If
they wont drive in they wont drive in. Cut em. You can use an 8 foot 2x8 or
2x 10 to use as a lever to twist the joist back close to straight, or pipe
clamps or come-alongs or anything. This is a two person job and not for the
dainty. By the time you are done you should be exhausted and have absolutely
no aggression left in you!

2) Should the joists be sistered with more 2 x 10 across the main beam
or put in more plywood gusset before putting in blocking?

No. Unless you see physical evidence of a break or a large crown or dip
(1/2"+). "Checking" (long cracks going with the grain) is normal and not
usually a structural issue. 2x10 can easily span 14' on a first floor.

3) Can you block or sister with that small plywood gusset in place or
should it be removed to get full access to the sides of the joists?

No need to remove it. Drive some more nails in it.

4) Will jacking anything up be required? What gets jacked? It seems
like a bad idea to jack the joists that are at an angle as you may roll
them over more.

Can't comment on that sight unseen. You need to have a pro look at the whole
structure.


The more information you can give me, the better, as we decide what to
do (and who will do it - we do a lot ourselves but this may be
contractor territory).

The most likely cause of the squeaking floor is the metal bridging. It is
notorious for this. I have done several replacement jobs in my area to solve
this problem. Cut out all of the metal bridging and replace it with wood
strapping for bridging. You can leave part of the metal that goes under the
plywood in place and just bang it down flush with the joist.
After that run a bead of construction adhesive down the joint between the
joist and the plywood on each side wherever you can reach. Press it into the
joint with your finger. Stay off the floor for at least 8 hours.


We would like to punch both the builder and our building inspector
right about now. Both were idiots - the builder butchered a lot of
stuff and the inspector never caught it, and we were too green to know
what we were looking at.

Everything you explained was "state of the art" for the 1970's. They don't
build em like they used to, and that's a good thing.


Thanks very much,
Liz


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

"Harry K" wrote in message
ups.com...

BP wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...
We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976. We are the 2nd
owners, it's our first house.
We've recently noticed, while doing some work in the basement, that
about 2/3rds of the floor joists in the basement are twisting on the
main beam. They are no longer perpendicular on the beam but are on an
angle. / , not | , when viewed on end. Some are worse than others.

There are a few slightly saggy spots in the floor upstairs and it's
starting to squeak.

A few more details:
1) The joists are 2 x 10s, 16" on center.
2) The span is 12 - 13 feet - because of a stepback in the front of the
house one end is 24' across, the other is 26'.
3) Metal X bracing is installed at mid-span for most joists, but is
missing where ductwork is and in a few other places.
4) The joists do not overlap each on the main beam, they are butted
against each other and a single plywood gusset of about 1/2" thick, 6"
wide, and 2 feet long --stapled-- to the joists across the joint.
5) No toenailing is apparent where the bottom of the joist meets the
beam.
6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

It can be done but don't expect perfection. You should have solid 2x10
blocking over the beam and between the joists anyway. In Mass this is
required by code now for fireblocking. You cut 2x10 blocks 14.5" long and
get them in place on an angle and then beat the hell out of them to drive
them in parallel with the beam and blocking both the front and the back
joists. You may need to cut them shorter on the badly twisted joists. If
they wont drive in they wont drive in. Cut em. You can use an 8 foot 2x8
or
2x 10 to use as a lever to twist the joist back close to straight, or
pipe
clamps or come-alongs or anything. This is a two person job and not for
the
dainty. By the time you are done you should be exhausted and have
absolutely
no aggression left in you!

2) Should the joists be sistered with more 2 x 10 across the main beam
or put in more plywood gusset before putting in blocking?

No. Unless you see physical evidence of a break or a large crown or dip
(1/2"+). "Checking" (long cracks going with the grain) is normal and not
usually a structural issue. 2x10 can easily span 14' on a first floor.

3) Can you block or sister with that small plywood gusset in place or
should it be removed to get full access to the sides of the joists?

No need to remove it. Drive some more nails in it.

4) Will jacking anything up be required? What gets jacked? It seems
like a bad idea to jack the joists that are at an angle as you may roll
them over more.

Can't comment on that sight unseen. You need to have a pro look at the
whole
structure.


The more information you can give me, the better, as we decide what to
do (and who will do it - we do a lot ourselves but this may be
contractor territory).

The most likely cause of the squeaking floor is the metal bridging. It is
notorious for this. I have done several replacement jobs in my area to
solve
this problem. Cut out all of the metal bridging and replace it with wood
strapping for bridging. You can leave part of the metal that goes under
the
plywood in place and just bang it down flush with the joist.
After that run a bead of construction adhesive down the joint between the
joist and the plywood on each side wherever you can reach. Press it into
the
joint with your finger. Stay off the floor for at least 8 hours.


We would like to punch both the builder and our building inspector
right about now. Both were idiots - the builder butchered a lot of
stuff and the inspector never caught it, and we were too green to know
what we were looking at.

Everything you explained was "state of the art" for the 1970's. They
don't
build em like they used to, and that's a good thing.


Thanks very much,
Liz


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

Not really an issue. If the joists were well nailed they wouldn't have
twisted so badly in the first place.

BP wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

Not really an issue. If the joists were well nailed they wouldn't have
twisted so badly in the first place.


Good point!

Harry K

Harry K wrote:

BP wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

Not really an issue. If the joists were well nailed they wouldn't have
twisted so badly in the first place.


Good point!

I'll bet when OP tries this he/she will find there's a whole lot more
resistance there than they're expecting...

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Harry K wrote:

BP wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

Not really an issue. If the joists were well nailed they wouldn't have
twisted so badly in the first place.


Good point!

I'll bet when OP tries this he/she will find there's a whole lot more
resistance there than they're expecting...

And you would win that bet.

BP wrote:

"Duane Bozarth" wrote in message
...
Harry K wrote:

BP wrote:
"Harry K" wrote in message


I can see straightening one that is free but how do you do it in this
situation? The subfloor at least if not also the finish floor is
nailed into the tops of those joists. Any straightening has to bend
and pull on those nails.

Harry K

Not really an issue. If the joists were well nailed they wouldn't have
twisted so badly in the first place.


Good point!

I'll bet when OP tries this he/she will find there's a whole lot more
resistance there than they're expecting...

And you would win that bet.



Haven't seen it, obviously, but I'm still of the opinion there's
probably not much, if anything, seriously wrong structurally and they're
fussing mostly over cosmetic issues. If there were truly serious
structural faults, they'd have shown up in the 20 years as more than a
few squeaks and small settling cracks.

Yeah, I'm expecting to not be pretty. After all, it's had years to get
like this, and undoing it in an afternoon won't be possible.

But at the very minimum we need to stop it from getting any worse. We
have to at least try.

There doesn't appear to be any toenailing on the joists themselves,
just that plywood gusset. And the subfloor is glued (can see the drips)
and screwed (can see screws hanging down where they missed the joist
from above).

I'm expecting some possible mess upstairs with stuff popping up or
maybe cracking, but since we need to recarpet and repaint the whole
house interior this is a good time to do it.

No 400 lb TVs, but we do have a bunch of books.

Liz

wrote:

Yeah, I'm expecting to not be pretty. After all, it's had years to get
like this, and undoing it in an afternoon won't be possible.

But at the very minimum we need to stop it from getting any worse. We
have to at least try.

I really don't believe it will get significantly worse unless there is
an actual fault which it doesn't sound like there is . If there's only
some minor settling and a squeaky floor here and there after 20+ years,
it's pretty good indication of no _major_ issue.

Not being able to actually see what you're talking about, I'd probably
add the fire blocking if there are places that really need it/it will
make a difference if you do (but if it's an open, unfinished basement as
it sounds like, there's nothing for the blocking to block against, so
even that doesn't seem certain to be a real issue.) If there are a few
joists which have really moved significantly (like an inch or more), I'd
consider those few, perhaps as worthy of some attention. If I
understand the way you're describing it, adding a hanger bracket might
be the easiest way to ensure they don't go anywhere further than they've
already gone.

There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. On the
worst one, the sliding has pulled the gusset right off the joint (the
opposite side joist is still straight). The worst areas are around the
duct work spaces where no X bracing or anything was ever installed.

It's also worse on the side that correlates with the front half of the
house. Might be that there has always been more furniture on that side,
or that the snow weight has been heavier as it's the north side of the
house and the south side of the roof rarely gets snow buildup because
the sun melts it, I don't know.

Of the rest, about 1/3rd have movement from between 1/2 to an inch, 1/3
are a 1/2 inch or less, and the last 3rd are pretty much straight.

I'm mostly worried about the 3 bad ones, and about keeping the others
from getting that bad.

Liz

wrote:

There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. On the
worst one, the sliding has pulled the gusset right off the joint (the
opposite side joist is still straight). The worst areas are around the
duct work spaces where no X bracing or anything was ever installed.

It's also worse on the side that correlates with the front half of the
house. Might be that there has always been more furniture on that side,
or that the snow weight has been heavier as it's the north side of the
house and the south side of the roof rarely gets snow buildup because
the sun melts it, I don't know.

Of the rest, about 1/3rd have movement from between 1/2 to an inch, 1/3
are a 1/2 inch or less, and the last 3rd are pretty much straight.

I'm mostly worried about the 3 bad ones, and about keeping the others
from getting that bad.

About all I'd do I suspect then would be to repair the worst and add
bracing where it is lacking. Blocking cut to fit reasonably tightly
between the remainder will provide no place for them to go and can be
done much more simply than trying to return them to the "full upright
and uncomfortable position"...

On 17 Nov 2005 11:38:08 -0800, wrote:

There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. On the
worst one, the sliding has pulled the gusset right off the joint (the
opposite side joist is still straight). The worst areas are around the
duct work spaces where no X bracing or anything was ever installed.

It's also worse on the side that correlates with the front half of the
house. Might be that there has always been more furniture on that side,
or that the snow weight has been heavier as it's the north side of the
house and the south side of the roof rarely gets snow buildup because
the sun melts it, I don't know.

Of the rest, about 1/3rd have movement from between 1/2 to an inch, 1/3
are a 1/2 inch or less, and the last 3rd are pretty much straight.

I'm mostly worried about the 3 bad ones, and about keeping the others
from getting that bad.


It's not caused by weight, it's caused by using bad lumber for the
floor joists, and not installing it properly.

Goedjn wrote:

On 17 Nov 2005 11:38:08 -0800, wrote:

There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. On the
worst one, the sliding has pulled the gusset right off the joint (the
opposite side joist is still straight). The worst areas are around the
duct work spaces where no X bracing or anything was ever installed.

It's also worse on the side that correlates with the front half of the
house. Might be that there has always been more furniture on that side,
or that the snow weight has been heavier as it's the north side of the
house and the south side of the roof rarely gets snow buildup because
the sun melts it, I don't know.

Of the rest, about 1/3rd have movement from between 1/2 to an inch, 1/3
are a 1/2 inch or less, and the last 3rd are pretty much straight.

I'm mostly worried about the 3 bad ones, and about keeping the others
from getting that bad.

It's not caused by weight, it's caused by using bad lumber for the
floor joists, and not installing it properly.

Well, it could be exacerbated by settling or perhaps the house has
shifted in one direction or the other although that would tend to
produce a uniform relative movement and they would all be tilted the
same way.

I think the lumber was probably not too bad to start with, but the
installation definitely was a problem.
Even with what's going on (as well as some REALLY bad hack-n-slash
plumbing notches which are a whole 'nother story and which we are in
the process of fixing) none of the joists are cracked or checked.
And the ones where enough blocking or bracing was done (under the
kitchen) are still straight even at the beam, even without toenailing
or overlapping, with just that lame plywood piece.

Liz

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:17:19 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

wrote:

Yeah, I'm expecting to not be pretty. After all, it's had years to get
like this, and undoing it in an afternoon won't be possible.

But at the very minimum we need to stop it from getting any worse. We
have to at least try.

I really don't believe it will get significantly worse unless there is
an actual fault which it doesn't sound like there is . If there's only
some minor settling and a squeaky floor here and there after 20+ years,
it's pretty good indication of no _major_ issue.

Not to be a stickler for detail, but try 30 years,

From the orginal post:

"We live in a small cheap 3 bedroom ranch built in 1976."

DJ

wrote in message
ups.com...
There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. On the
worst one, the sliding has pulled the gusset right off the joint (the
opposite side joist is still straight). The worst areas are around the
duct work spaces where no X bracing or anything was ever installed.

It's also worse on the side that correlates with the front half of the
house. Might be that there has always been more furniture on that side,
or that the snow weight has been heavier as it's the north side of the
house and the south side of the roof rarely gets snow buildup because
the sun melts it, I don't know.

Of the rest, about 1/3rd have movement from between 1/2 to an inch, 1/3
are a 1/2 inch or less, and the last 3rd are pretty much straight.

I'm mostly worried about the 3 bad ones, and about keeping the others
from getting that bad.

Liz


"There are about 3 joists where movement is more than an inch. "

What!?! You've got to be exaggerating just a little! Are the joists made of
balsa wood? I have seen 2x6 floors stiffer than that. Do you have a 300
pound linebacker jumping on the floor? How are you measuring the deflection?

You need to get some toe nails into the beam. And install the fireblocking.
Can't hurt, might help. The bridging sounds like the real problem. That
metal crap does nothing. I bet you will see the most noticeable improvement
when you get the new bridging installed.

What!?! You've got to be exaggerating just a little! Are the joists made of
balsa wood? I have seen 2x6 floors stiffer than that. Do you have a 300
pound linebacker jumping on the floor? How are you measuring the deflection?

It's not top to bottom where it's out an inch, what I'm looking at is
if you sight down the straight joist opposite the bad one, how far is
the bottom kicked out to the side - "/ " on the bad one compared to
the good one.

I don't think this matters but I forgot to mention the place was a
factory framed house that came as walls and trusses on a truck, then
was put together on site. The place that built it - Harvest Homes -
is still in business. I just wonder if the guy that put it together is
.....

Thank you all for the help so far. It helps so much to just talk this
out with knowledgeable folks. Carpentry isn't hubby's thing, though
he's fine with plumbing and electrical, so the carpentry stuff usually
ends up with me, even if it's just managing someone we hire to do it.
I'm better with the saws than he is .

Liz

wrote in message
oups.com...
What!?! You've got to be exaggerating just a little! Are the joists made
of
balsa wood? I have seen 2x6 floors stiffer than that. Do you have a 300
pound linebacker jumping on the floor? How are you measuring the
deflection?

It's not top to bottom where it's out an inch, what I'm looking at is
if you sight down the straight joist opposite the bad one, how far is
the bottom kicked out to the side - "/ " on the bad one compared to
the good one.

I don't think this matters but I forgot to mention the place was a
factory framed house that came as walls and trusses on a truck, then
was put together on site. The place that built it - Harvest Homes -
is still in business. I just wonder if the guy that put it together is
....

Thank you all for the help so far. It helps so much to just talk this
out with knowledgeable folks. Carpentry isn't hubby's thing, though
he's fine with plumbing and electrical, so the carpentry stuff usually
ends up with me, even if it's just managing someone we hire to do it.
I'm better with the saws than he is .

Liz

Oh. That's better!
"Movement" in the construction/engineering trades has a very specific
meaning.

DJ wrote:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:17:19 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

....
... after 20+ years,
it's pretty good indication of no _major_ issue.

Not to be a stickler for detail, but try 30 years,
....

FO

"Movement" in the construction/engineering trades has a very specific meaning.

Sorry for the confusion, I'm not familiar enough with the lingo.
BTW, what's the correct term for my joist problem? I searched Google
for about 2 weeks trying every keyword I could find - "twisted",
"rolling over", "sliding", "angled" etc. and ended up posting here when
I couldn't find anyone else having the same situation I am. I was
wondering if I just wasn't searching on the right words.

Liz

DJ wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:10:23 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

DJ wrote:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:17:19 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

...
... after 20+ years,
it's pretty good indication of no _major_ issue.

Not to be a stickler for detail, but try 30 years,
...

FO

Ok, guess you didn't like that one, how about 29 years? I rounded up,
you rounded down. OP indicates house built in 1976, I'm closer...
....

What does 30 add over "20+" to the intent or content of the thread?

I didn't "round" I literalized w/o going back to look up what _specific_
year OP said as it wheter it was 20 or 30 years wasn't significant to
the point I was making--that _a significant time_ had passed w/ not much
sign of any real structural fault.

Other than the chance to put in a dig at someone, there was no point
whatsoever in your posting afaict.

Well. I'm sure that if you want to you could leaver the joist straight, but
if it was me, I'd use a clamp.
go to the hardware store and buy a two pair of 3/4' pipe clamps, the type
furniture makers use to clamp glue ups
and buy 2 pieces of black iron pipe. buy the biggest heavest clamps you can
find, don't go cheap.
1. select a joist bay where the opening is wider at the bottom than at the
top.
2. measure the distance at the top of the bay and cut your 2x10 bridging to
fit.
3. drive the bridging into the bay and nail at the top.
4. use the pipe clamps to pull the joist together at the bottom closing the
gap and pulling the twisted joist straight.
5. nail in the bridging in place at the bottom
6. before removing the clamps repeat steps 2, 3 & 4 on either side of the
bay you just repaired
7. remove the clamps and replace them to span the three bay and repeat step
5 & 6.
8. continue.

Jeff

"Goedjn" wrote in message
...

6) No blocking was installed where the joists meet the main beam.

My questions:
1) Is it possible to straighten the twisted joists? If so, how?

Yes, you can straighten the joists, but doing so may wall produce
nailpops and cracking wallboard above, because the plywood
subfloor is going to heave a little bit.

You build a big-ass wrench out of dimension lumber,
bolts, and plywood, sort of like a peavy with a fixed
tooth, and pry the joist vertical, and have someone
stuff blocking in there while you hold it.

Where there's something in the way so you can't
put in blocking, bridge across the bottom of the joists
with a 2x4 until you cross two joists that ARE blocked,
on each side.

(see www.goedjn.com/sketch/wrench.gif for the sketch
of the prying tool).

After doing the whole floor, inspect the topside
for things that have popped up.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 16:50:52 -0500, "Jeff"
wrote:

Well. I'm sure that if you want to you could leaver the joist straight, but
if it was me, I'd use a clamp.
go to the hardware store and buy a two pair of 3/4' pipe clamps, the type


That will work fine too, as long as you're sure you know which joist
is going to move when you start clamping.

wrote in message
oups.com...
"Movement" in the construction/engineering trades has a very specific
meaning.

Sorry for the confusion, I'm not familiar enough with the lingo.
BTW, what's the correct term for my joist problem? I searched Google
for about 2 weeks trying every keyword I could find - "twisted",
"rolling over", "sliding", "angled" etc. and ended up posting here when
I couldn't find anyone else having the same situation I am. I was
wondering if I just wasn't searching on the right words.

Liz

I would have tried all those words too. It's just too obscure an issue.

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 13:40:18 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

DJ wrote:

On Fri, 18 Nov 2005 09:10:23 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

DJ wrote:

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 13:17:19 -0600, Duane Bozarth
wrote:

...
... after 20+ years,
it's pretty good indication of no _major_ issue.

Not to be a stickler for detail, but try 30 years,
...

FO

Ok, guess you didn't like that one, how about 29 years? I rounded up,
you rounded down. OP indicates house built in 1976, I'm closer...
...

What does 30 add over "20+" to the intent or content of the thread?

Probably more than your "FO", at least mine was relevant to the
thread.

I didn't "round" I literalized w/o going back to look up what _specific_
year OP said as it wheter it was 20 or 30 years wasn't significant to
the point I was making--that _a significant time_ had passed w/ not much
sign of any real structural fault.

Other than the chance to put in a dig at someone, there was no point
whatsoever in your posting afaict.

Lighten up, I was agreeing with you and going on to say it had been
even longer "w/ not much sign of any real structural fault." I happen
to remember the date mentioned by the OP, probably because my home is
also of that vintage.

DJ

BP wrote:

Oh. That's better!
"Movement" in the construction/engineering trades has a very specific
meaning.

And an entirely different meaning in the medical trade.

R

"RicodJour" wrote in message
ps.com...
BP wrote:

Oh. That's better!
"Movement" in the construction/engineering trades has a very specific
meaning.

And an entirely different meaning in the medical trade.

R

LOL
Rico.....
D'jour.
Very well done!